date:20050827




Dear Pannirselvam:
Thanks for your 
advise!
I was aware 
that the compression needs to be increased, but there are a few ways to achieve 
that, some easy, some don't.
My major 
concern was about the "other components" mentioned, and still I wasn't 
able to figure out which are those.
Some sites 
mention hoses, some other fuel pump, and yet some other mention carburetor 
gaskets!
I'm not 100% fluent in Portuguese, but from waht I have read, I was able to 
determine that some years ago Volkswagen sold a whole line of cars that ran on 
100% alcohol, reported to be ethanol.Those cars suffered from cold start 
problems in winter, due to lower air temp,but that won't be an issue to 
me.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Pannirselvam 
  P.V 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Cc: GPECBIOMASS 
  Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:26 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How to make 
  ehtanol, second try...
      Dear  
  Wdt   As motor made in Brasil to 
  run on ethanol  has  engine design  with higher compression 
  than gasoline  car , you  can think of importing  the 
  same  as the technology envolves  not only the engine , but also 
  several other parts of the car.As I understand , may be Keith knows much 
  better , the  bioethanol fuel  programme made in Australia is not 
  yet made  suceeesful one.   Regrading making etanol 
  from  waste orange we  can help you  as this can be made  
  using simple  technologysdPannirselvamBrasil  
  
  On 8/26/05, Wireless 
  Data Transfer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

Hello 
there! This is the second time I post this question, since nobody responded 
to the first time, please advice!
I own a 
fairly big piece of land, in which I grow oranges, and a lot of themfall 
from the trees and rot on the ground.I have been told that making 
ethanol from those rotting oranges can be quitesimple.I can also 
have access to an almost unlimited supply of wood chips andsawdust from 
a nearby lumber yard, from which I read Methanol can beobtained, 
or those can be turned on fire to run the furnaces to make the 
Ethanol, right? The main use I will have for either the Ethanol or 
the Methanol is to fuela small fleet of cars that I use for traveling 
back and forth to where theoranges are.The 4 cars combined consume about 
50~60 gallons of fuel permonth, each. I have found in various places on 
the Web that Brazil has manyvehicles that come from the factory ready to 
use alcohol as the fuel, butnobody seems to have many details of the 
systems.
I'm looking 
forward for any suggestions to learn how to produce my own fuel at 
reduced costs, in order to make my operation as self-sustainable as 
possible.
Thank you in advance!___Biofuel 
mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel 
at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the 
combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio 
  Grande do Norte - UFRNDepartamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ Centro 
  de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - 
  PPGEQGrupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador 
  Salgado Filho, Campus UniversitárioCEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil 
  Residence :Av  Odilon gome de lima, 
  2951,   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102   
  Capim  MacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - 
  BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 
  Ramal21032171557 
  Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 
  residencia 
  32171557 
  Cellular  84  88145083 
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] WVO problem

2005-08-27 Thread Robert Ingram




Hi All
 Just anote here Iremoved anice running engine 
from my 240 d after the car was crushed by a falling banyan limb I have the 
engine and transmisiiopn  at my mechanics shop here in Miami (Cocoanut 
Grove ) if any one is interested 
The falling limb happened before yesterdays 
hurricane .( Thats another story)

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Thomas 
  Kelly 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 1:59 
  PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] WVO problem
  
   I've been following the 
  discussion re: restaurants and the contracts they may have with grease 
  haulers (renderers)  with great interest. I have a sinking feeling in the 
  pit of my stomach.
   I started 
  with small (1L - 4L) test batches, first on virgin oil and then on WVO 
  samples obtained from several local restaurants. I narrowed my suppliers down 
  to those restaurants that gave me the best oil (titrations of 2.5g/L or less). 
  Following directions from JtF, and with help from Keith, Todd Swearington, and 
  Marc A, I moved to 15L 
  batches and this past week finished a 130L 
  processor and have run two batches. The first has been washed and is drying, 
  the other is in the wash phase.
   With 20 gal BD in with 
  my heating oil 30 gal of beautifully clear BD in storage tanks, and another 
  60+ gal. just about ready, I am confident that I can make BD. I was getting 
  ready to travel from upstate NY to Florida to check out a couple of Mercedes 
  Diesels when I read the problem Frieda was having with grease haulers. 
  
   I intentionally went to 
  small restaurants/diners. The three at the top of my list (best oil in town) 
  were all happy to let me take their oil and the 20 gal/week was enough to get 
  me started. 
   PROBLEM:  They all 
  have grease dumpsters. Two of the three set the oil aside for me in 5 gal 
  containers. The other one told me to help myself to the oil in the dumpster: 
  "take as much as you want".
   Am I stupid or what? It 
  never occurred to me that I was stealing oil from anyone. I suspect that the 
  people that gave me permission to take the oil don't know all the details of 
  their agreement with the haulers.
    Todd Swearingen's 
  response to the problem (see below)
  seems to put it in perspective. 
   QUESTION: How have the 
  experienced BD producers handled the matter?
  - Do they have 
  written agreements?
  - Any advise that might 
  make a potential supplier more 
    likely to go with 
  me rather than the renderer?
  - My best option for 
  replacing their dumpsters are 55 gal 
    drums   
  any other ideas?
   
   I've gotten this 
  far   .   any advise/encouragement would be 
  appreciated.
   
   My next pickup is Mon 
  8/29. I hope to get to talk w. the owners/managers of the restaurants. Wish me 
  luck.
   
     
  Tom
   
   "Haulers have only three legitimate complaints 
  with "greasel" owners and biodiesel brewers that approach a level of 
  legality, at least relative to their involvement.1) If a 
  restauranteur has signed a contract with a hauler or renderer that 
  stipulates that all fats and oils coming from that establishment during 
  the contractual period belong to them, whether in the dumpster or not, 
  they have a legitimate complaint and could approach the restaurant owner 
  for breech of contract. Some contracts only state that the grease belongs 
  to the hauler once it's in the dumpster/drum.2) If a "greasel" owner 
  or biodiesel brewer removes feedstock from a container that belongs to the 
  hauler, the hauler has grounds to pursue a complaint of theft. If the 
  amount of grease/oil removed can be proven, whether it be a single 
  instance or over a series of events, and the value of the grease/oil meets 
  or exceeds the dollar threshold for felony theft, the person who has 
  removed the grease could be held liable in a criminal court.3) A 
  few states require that the hauler be licensed. If not, fines could be 
  levied.As a general rule, haulers literally make bank on the expected 
  volumes of grease/oil from each of its clients. If the expected/historical 
  volume differs from the actual volume, they tend to get extremely pissy 
  and play the part of the 800 pound gorilla, making threats of all 
  manner, sometimes legitimate and sometimes not, in order to resecure 
  their feedstock.It's best that every "greasel" owner, biodieseler 
  and restauranteur know of the potential legal snags if they expect to keep 
  their headache levels at zero.The easiest solution is for the 
  homebrewer or greaseler to pre-arrange supplying the same type of 
  container(s) at no charge to the restaurant when any existing contract is 
  about to expire and service them regularly. The problem usually found with 
  such a scenario is that while the intentions of the homebrewer may be 
  good, their interest often wains, leaving the

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread Clif Caldwell

Hello Keith,
As I am fairly new to this list I should have done some achive research 
before posting. My bad .
You obviously have spent quite some time arguing your opinion on these 
political issues. I have not. I spoke from my convictions not from my 
expertise.

 As far as /trolling/ I must admit I am unfamiliar with this term. I 
assume it has to do with a certain type of behavior on mailing lists or 
in chat rooms. Since I have very little experience in either arena I 
will do my best not to do this in the future.

I may not be the brightest bulb in the box but I do learn. From now on I 
will allow these political issues and religious issues to be discussed 
here without my input. With my somewhat limited verbal sparring skills 
and my deep seated convictions I would simply get in the way of 
/meaningful /discussions. Is this "penitent" enough for you ?

The unanimously vehement reaction to  my comments speaks volumes. Thanks 
for the education. It is all your's. I don't mind a good fight but  why 
bother . 

I will limit my discussions to areas I know even less about, namely 
building my first biodiesel processor.

Have at it.

Signing off from this thread and any other remotely related threads.

With warm (occassionally very warm) regards,
Clif


Keith Addison wrote:

>Hello Clif
>
>  
>
>>Keith Addison wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>My my. And I was just thinking you might be a man who'd do a bit of
>>>checking before he shot his foot off. Again. I do rather wonder what
>>>you mean when you say "right here in America" when actually where you
>>>are right now is right here on the global Internet, on a global
>>>discussion group with a global membership that includes many Muslims
>>>living in Muslim countries, who are probably more aware than you are
>>>of calls from your country - calls and deeds done - to kill them and
>>>their leaders. But that doesn't count, does it? It does here. If you
>>>want outrage over the coverage of the war in Iraq you'll find it
>>>aplenty, but you won't like it - it's outrage at the unquestioning,
>>>knee-jerk coverage your so-called "liberal" press (ROFL!!!) gave to
>>>the pack of blatant lies that led unfailingly to everything and
>>>everybody getting torn to pieces in Iraq (as most of us predicted at
>>>the time), including your precious military, and every single promise
>>>broken.
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>Guilty as accused concerning not backing up my statements. I have
>>remedied this in another post.
>>
>>
>
>Well, you haven't given Fred any work, each and every one of your 
>refs has been debunked many times before and it's all in the archives.
>
>"In Iraq, we're not fighting for ourselves," said Bean, from his home 
>base in Fort Campbell, Ky. "We're over there fighting so the Iraqis 
>can have their own Fourth of July."
>
>LOL! Yeah, it's not funny, but black humour's a survival trait these days.
>
>  
>
>>And guilty as accused as writing from a
>>decidingly US perspective. I have traveled extensively including
>>performing tsunami relief (as a civilian paying my own way) in Banda
>>Aceh, Indonesia (90+ % Isalmic). Please understand that I have cried
>>with, struggled with and even prayed with Muslims and Christians all
>>over the world.  (I have carried out humanitarian efforts in Central and
>>South America and Jordan also.) Unfortunately I was not as sensitive as
>>I should have been to all the readers of this list.
>>
>>I am a former officer in the USAF
>>
>>
>
>So you keep saying.
>
>  
>
>>so perhaps I do have a fondness for
>>the fine, exceedingly capable and patriotic  men and women serving to
>>protect and defend a country
>>
>>
>
>Americans are inclined to be VERY careful about seeming to criticise 
>that, most will pay it due obeisance. But most people here are not 
>Americans and can be expected to treat it as the false sacred cow 
>that it is. Again, please see the archives, we've had Purple 
>Heart-winning US vets arguing with each here before this. So you 
>might as well stop saying it, it doesn't secure you any high ground.
>
>  
>
>>I personally feel is a  pretty good place
>>to live.
>>
>>Perhaps I am living under some delusions and if that is the
>>case then I'm sure someone will try to correct the errors of my ways.
>>
>>Thanks for the input. I will give it some thought.
>>
>>Just a guy sorting things out,
>>
>>
>
>I wonder. I think you're trolling. You slip in and lay some 
>flame-bait, it duly raises noise and distraction, then you're all 
>penitent about it, and then you do it again, twice so far. I'm not 
>convinced by your penitence this time, and there won't be a third 
>time.
>
>Keith Addison
>Journey to Forever
>KYOTO Pref., Japan
>http://journeytoforever.org/
>Biofuel list owner
>
>
>  
>
>>Clif
>>
>>
>>
>>>  
>>>
Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out
how to titrate WVO correctly.
At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
Where is the outrage at th

Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

Thanks for your response.
I will be taking a close look to a list of links that were sent to me.
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try...


> Dear Pannirselvam
>
> >Dear  Wdt
> >
> >
> >   As motor made in Brasil to run on ethanol  has  engine design
> >with higher compression than gasoline  car , you  can think of
> >importing  the same  as the technology envolves  not only the engine
> >, but also several other parts of the car.As I understand , may be
> >Keith knows much better , the  bioethanol fuel  programme made in
> >Australia is not yet made  suceeesful one.
>
> I don't know any better Pan. I think you're right, and I think they
> made it a maximum of 10% with 90% gasoline, following a disgraceful
> disinformation campaign against ethanol. That was a couple of years
> ago, I think it's all in the list archives. I haven't followed it
> closely since then. Last I heard they were proposing big taxes on
> biodiesel, including homebrewers, but I don't know what's become of
> that either. Maybe this is what one should expect from the world's #1
> coal exporter and #2 global warming denier. Australians themselves
> are another matter, I don't know how long they'd accept this kind of
> treatment.
>
> Regards
>
> Keith
>
>
> >   Regrading making etanol from  waste orange we  can help you  as
> >this can be made  using simple  technology
> >
> >sd
> >Pannirselvam
> >Brasil
> >
> >On 8/26/05, Wireless Data Transfer
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since
> >nobody responded to the first time, please advice!
>
> 
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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>
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messages):
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>
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Sweden´s Tax rate

2005-08-27 Thread Lars Andersson




As a Swede and living in Sweden i would like to know some 
more about the taxes i am supposed to be paying...!! I feel a lack of 
completeness in the posting talking about my tax rates... can not figure out 
wich of the taxes that are 70% During those forty years i have been living 
here (not paying taxes from the beginning of course) i have not had any 
problems surviving here broken leg and bad eyes and some other minor things 
taken care of  without problems... I have even got some 
education.
 
Some more info would be appreciated !!
 
Lars A
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Tom Irwin 

  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:57 
  AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Sweden´s Tax 
rate
  
  Hi Chuck,
   
  I don´t live in Sweden. Is their tax rate really 70%? Is it flat rate or 
  progressive? What do you receive as a citizen of Sweden from your taxes?
   
  Thanks,
   
  Tom Irwin 
  

From: Charles Heinitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: 
Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:47:25 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pat 
Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo ChavezSo you 
think Sweden is a sucess? Try living there with a tax rate of 
70%.ChuckSnip
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Magnetic boots

2005-08-27 Thread Nick & Jenny

OK I may have come in late on this but you can cancel a permenant magnetic
field, look up magnetic vise or chuck. They are used on milling machines to
secure the workpiece. The magnets are "swiched off" using a lever. No power
or external device required.

Regards
Nick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of bob allen
Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2005 1:18 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Magnetic boots


ah yes, magnets once again -hold on to your wallet

Wes Moore wrote:
> I received the following a few days ago.  I suspect there may be folks
> on this list who would find this interesting.  The source is from
> Anthony Craddock who organizes info for Dr Tom Bearden .   the page that
> is linked at the bottom also has Tom Bearden’s website linked.
>
> Wes
>
>
>
>
>
> Try finding the original magnetic astronauts boots that were developed
> by NASA. The original boots were excellent. For the acceptance tests, an
> engineer clad as an astronaut walked across the bottom of a steel beam
> in a high bay research area, upside down against the pull of Earth's
> gravity. He /stepped/ as he walked, putting his foot "down" and then
> picking it "up".
>
> There is no problem in finding magnets strong enough to hold the
> astronaut firmly in such an upside position. The problem with simple
> magnetic boots using such strong magnets is that, once the foot is
> planted, unless he is King Kong himself, the astronaut cannot pick up
> the foot again.
>
> However, the Radus boots completely solved that problem. If the
> permanent magnet fields are switched off

uh, how do you switch off a permanent magnet?  ans. you don't and
everything following is therefore BS

for that foot that the
> astronaut wishes to lift, he can lift it easily and take another step.
> Then if the fields are switched on again as he places his foot down,
> this switching of the fields allows him to walk in a manner resembling
> normal walking, though a little slower.
>
> To do that switching by normal "battery and coils" would be
> prohibitively bulky and heavy  and awkward to say the least.
>
> With the Radus boots, the astronaut could pick up his foot by simply
> switching off the permanent magnetic fields easily. They switched on
> again when he placed the foot down. And he did not have to carry a huge
> battery around with him, to furnish enormous current to do that.
>
> Well, it doesn't take a genius to see that, when you can switch a
> permanent magnet's fields easily, and the magnet also has a built-in
> memory as did the Radus magnets, then with a little ingenuity in
> switching one could use such switchable magnets to produce a
> self-switching, self-powered permanent magnet motor.


oooh, free energy


  The magnet, being a
> permanent dipole, is already a particular kind of "free energy
> generator", since it continuously gates magnetic energy

no such thing as magnetic energy

  directly from
> the vacuum due to its asymmetry in the energetic vacuum flux.
>
>>From the energy barons' viewpoint, those Radus magnets and Radus boots had
to
> go, and go quickly. And go they did.
>
nonsense


> So NASA then developed the present "shuffler" kind of magnetic boots
> where the astronaut can't pull his boot loose from the surface, but must
> "scoot" his feet along in a sliding and painfully awkward fashion. That
> way, you see, no one can use the boot magnets  which now are just
> rather ordinary permanent magnets, without memories and without
> switchable fields  to make an overunity device or a self-powering
> permanent magnet engine.
>
> Tom Bearden
>
>
> Radus family members have now very kindly provided photos of the
> original boots, which can be seen at
>
> http://www.cheniere.org/misc/astroboots.htm
>



--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......




Thanks!
Those resources are going to be very 
useful!

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:23 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How to make 
  ehtanol, second try...
  
  
  
  
  "Hello there! 
  This is the second time I post this question, since nobody responded to the 
  first time, please advice!"
   
  (some) links to Books, equipment, videos
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual1-2.html
  
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh9.html
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual14.html
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_sawdust.html
  http://www.amphora-society.com/
  http://www.gin-vodka.com/
  http://buffalo-creek-press.com/
  http://www.moonshine-still.com/page2.htm
  http://www.homedistiller.org/
  I haven't thoroughly researched the last four sites but, at a glance they 
  looked fine. The Amphora Society is mentioned in various distillers discussion 
  groups and has not received any negative comments to my knowledge.
  Good luck!
  Mike
  
  

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[Biofuel] Mercedes Diesel Suitable?

2005-08-27 Thread Peter Childers




This is my first try at this list so excuse me if I 
don't get it yet. I need to acquire a diesel vehicle before I start to 
experiment with BioDiesel. I have looked at a Mercedes 300D that has not run in 
about 4 years and has 165K miles on it. I think it is about a 1985. I haven't 
talked to the owner yet. Can anyone give me some tips as to whether this car 
would suit, from an affordability standpoint, using for Biodiesel. I am very 
skilled mechanically so I can put the vehicle into operation with my own labor, 
but I expect parts to be expensive. I am not sure what I may need to do to it 
for Biodiesel. It is a five cylinder but I'm not sure if it is a turbo or not 
(needs a second look). I am also looking at (preferred) a Volkswagen 
Rabbit diesel. That one is a long shot right now. Thanks for any 
help.
Peter
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Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

You are right.
I just got overwhelmed with the amount of e-mails received, thus unable to
identify the proper ones.
Thank you!
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try...


> Hello Wireless Data Transfer
>
> >Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since
> >nobody responded to the first time, please advice!
> >I own a fairly big piece of land, in which I grow oranges, and a lot of
them
> >fall from the trees and rot on the ground.
> >I have been told that making ethanol from those rotting oranges can be
quite
> >simple.
> >I can also have access to an almost unlimited supply of wood chips and
> >sawdust from a nearby lumber yard, from which I read Methanol can be
> >obtained, or those can be turned on fire to run the furnaces to make
> >the Ethanol, right?
> >The main use I will have for either the Ethanol or the Methanol is to
fuel
> >a small fleet of cars that I use for traveling back and forth to where
the
> >oranges are.The 4 cars combined consume about 50~60 gallons of fuel per
> >month, each. I have found in various places on the Web that Brazil has
many
> >vehicles that come from the factory ready to use alcohol as the fuel, but
> >nobody seems to have many details of the systems.
> >I'm looking forward for any suggestions to learn how to produce my
> >own fuel at reduced costs, in order to make my operation as
> >self-sustainable as possible.
> >Thank you in advance!
>
> Not in advance, in arrears. When you came to the list you were
> pointed at the list resources, listed in the Welcome message and at
> the list homepage, it says this:
>
> There are resources, FAQs, how-to's, full recipes and an online
> Biofuels Library at the Journey to Forever website, the premier
> source of small-scale biofuels information:
>
> Biofuels
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biodiesel
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html
>
> Biodiesel - "Where do I start?"
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start
>
> Straight vegetable oil (SVO)
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
>
> Ethanol
> http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html
>
> Wood gas
> http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html#woodgas
>
> Biofuels Library
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html
>
> Messages to the list can be read on the Web here:
> http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
> -
>
> There are two complete online manuals on making your own ethanol,
> using fruit is covered, there are designs for stills, how-to's,
> forums, everything you need.
>
> There's also a method of how to make ethanol from sawdust.
>
> Whether methanol can or cannot be produced from wood short of a major
> industrial investment has been recently discussed at the list, you'll
> find the discussion in the list archives. It's also been discussed
> many times previously. Using wood as a heating source has also been
> discussed many times and in many ways, and there are good resources
> on it at the Journey to Forever website.
>
> So maybe that's why you didn't get an answer the first time, you'd
> already received it and didn't notice.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>
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>
>

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[Biofuel] There derrivatives of Barrel Oil, have you wondered ?

2005-08-27 Thread

 Have you ever wondered why all oil companies sell barrel oil at the same price ? Scenario; Could it be that all the oil companies are owned by one parent company? why not most other large companies do the same thing, they will have a offshore corporation who will own an onshore LLC or LTD. The company I work for does the same thing, the parent company is in Sweden where foreign source profits are non-taxable, meanwhile it's workers onshore are the ones paying taxes, certainly not them, but taxes are a different animal for another discussion group. A couple other things I do not understand, one ; if we have gained control of a large infrastucture oil producing country why is the price of gasoline still going so high? Did they do this for that objective ? Last thought.. As supposedly a free country why do we need a license 
and pay a tax to sell something that comes naturally out of the ground such as biofuel ? It seems that this may be a way to control the cost of that too.Myk HillNorth Carolina
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[Biofuel] Apology to Todd Swearingen

2005-08-27 Thread Thomas Kelly




From "Problems w. WVO" I wrote:
 "Following directions from JtF, and with help 
from Keith, Todd Swearington, and Marc A, I moved to 15L batches and this past week finished a 130L processor and have run two 
batches. The first has been washed and is drying, the other is in the wash 
phase."
 
   I also asked the question  "Am I 
stupid or what?"
ANSWER: Yes I am!!!
 

   I apologize to Todd Swearingen for 
misspelling his last name. 
   
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Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

2005-08-27 Thread Pannirselvam P.V

   Keith Thanks for your information 

   Even
though ,   there  are  several  well 
established technology  that can be used to  make  
waste  into fuel  and hence also food  by  small
scale biorefinary  in almost all countries, yet economically 
grown  country  is  moving very slow  in this 
sector .After reading  your e mail 
I now  understand well  why our list members  need 
to include the  biofuel problems linked to all political  and
global world  issues .The very big  corporate
production  model adopted by the  Canada  and
Australia   not following  decentralised  biofuel
projects   based on their plentiful  renewable
resources  can be  surely due to too  big blue 
Corporate companies  and their  corrupted politics 
not  allowing  the green way  of sustainable 
path  for the local and global  developments. 
How  an small farmer can use ethanol if the  economically
well  designed car  is not available in several 
countries but made possible  in Brazil. Brazilian government has
to put huge amount of money for research to make  the big
Multinational Corporate  all the Car company earlier in 1980 , now
they all fighting with one another to  make flexible biofuel car
to run simultaneously ,natural gas(biogas) , alcohol and 
gasoline.We can send  details about the  Brasilian ethanol
car  and I beleive that car can be modified  to run with
etanol  based on the information  in the internet with
especialized people.
I am sure waste vegetable oil can also  make  this  biofuel car more flexible .
May be Brazil can export the car  and combustible  to 
the  developing world where the speed and luxury  is not the
matter but  biofuel is very  far away the common man .Thus
biofuel can be  practical solution to get away poverty and 
dependence of poor on  rich.

Kind regards to all our list members 

sd
Pannir selvam  P.V
Brasil
On 8/27/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Pannirselvam>Dear  Wdt>>>   As motor made in Brasil to run on ethanol  has  engine design>with higher compression than gasoline  car , you  can think of>importing  the same  as the technology envolves  not only the engine
>, but also several other parts of the car.As I understand , may be>Keith knows much better , the  bioethanol fuel  programme made in>Australia is not yet made  suceeesful one.I don't know any better Pan. I think you're right, and I think they
made it a maximum of 10% with 90% gasoline, following a disgracefuldisinformation campaign against ethanol. That was a couple of yearsago, I think it's all in the list archives. I haven't followed itclosely since then. Last I heard they were proposing big taxes on
biodiesel, including homebrewers, but I don't know what's become ofthat either. Maybe this is what one should expect from the world's #1coal exporter and #2 global warming denier. Australians themselvesare another matter, I don't know how long they'd accept this kind of
treatment.RegardsKeith>   Regrading making etanol from  waste orange we  can help you  as>this can be made  using simple  technology>>sd>Pannirselvam>Brasil
>>On 8/26/05, Wireless Data Transfer><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>>Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since
>nobody responded to the first time, please advice!___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
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--Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRNDepartamento de Engenharia Química - DEQCentro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus UniversitárioCEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - BrasilResidence :Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102
   Capim  MacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal21032171557Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557
Cellular  84  88145083
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[Biofuel] Question on Chevy S10´s

2005-08-27 Thread Tom Irwin





Hi All,
 
I was out on Friday looking at pick ups. I saw an 2000 S10 with a 2.8 liter engine. It had about 200,000 km on it. Any problems running BioD in this vehicle? I suspect I´ll have to get the filters changed quite often early on as the BioD will dissolve all the fossil crud. I didn´t have a lot of time to see if it was a computerized injection system. Any help would be appreciated.
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

Good point, but:
1.  What if you don't have or can't get insurance?
2.  Last time I checked, it is not illegal to see a doctor in Canada and 
simply pay for it.  It would be silly to wait until you get cancer.  
Canadians have alternatives too.
3.  I would hazard that Canadian medicine, warts and all, is better than 
none.

-Mike

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

>Greetings,
>I have lived under Canada's medical and the US system, and had cancer in 
>both.  I will take the US system any day of the week.  Sorry, but sitting 
>on a waiting list waiting to have a pre-cancerous mass removed until it 
>turns into cancer is not my idea of good medicine.  Ask any US resident 
>what they think of medicaid, and you get the same answer, surprise, it is 
>the same system with the same faults.  The US has socialized medicine, 
>thankfully, they also have alternatives to it.
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>
>At 09:41 PM 8/27/2005, you wrote:
>  
>
>>  If Medicare and Medicade is so popular,
>>and efficient, then why not expand it?
>>
>>-Mike
>>
>>
>
>
>
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>  
>



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Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

2005-08-27 Thread Garth & Kim Travis

Greetings,
I have lived under Canada's medical and the US system, and had cancer in 
both.  I will take the US system any day of the week.  Sorry, but sitting 
on a waiting list waiting to have a pre-cancerous mass removed until it 
turns into cancer is not my idea of good medicine.  Ask any US resident 
what they think of medicaid, and you get the same answer, surprise, it is 
the same system with the same faults.  The US has socialized medicine, 
thankfully, they also have alternatives to it.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:41 PM 8/27/2005, you wrote:
>   If Medicare and Medicade is so popular,
>and efficient, then why not expand it?
>
>-Mike

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Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

Oh, I don't mind a few shots - been known to dish them out myself!  I 
guess I would turn the tables and
ask if you ever heard of an actual communist system?  I can't think of 
one.  Almost all had major built in flaws,
ranging from phony economic figures to police state governments.  I've 
never heard of a state actually withering away ;-)
Italy, Russia, the Soviet bloc.

OTOH, I can't say I can think of a pure and functional 
democractic-capitalistic state either.  Certainly not here or in Europe.
As I said earlier, I think the best bet is a robust economy with some 
socialistic (There!  I said it!) notions thrown in.
As the large countries of Eastern Europe are (and have) learned, you 
can't just conjure an economy.  You have to have money
to make the goodies flow.  Too high a tax rate, and most of the 
businesses leave for greener pastures.  Look at the film industry in the UK.
Up until Thatcher (and no, I am NOT a big fan) came in, they country 
taxed them into...the US!  Now of course, our own companies are fleeing 
to Canada
because they have *gasp* socialised medicine. 

I will never understand why the US is so anti socialised medicine.  
Jeez, even in the Red state of Virginia we have socialized schools, 
trash pickup, water
why not health care?  Beats me.  If Medicare and Medicade is so popular, 
and efficient, then why not expand it?

-Mike

TarynToo wrote:

>It's impossible to say "Communism would've collapsed even w/o our 
>"help"", since every state that has attempted communism, with few 
>exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some 
>combination of economic warfare, bribery and  corruption, economic and 
>military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy 
>fascist states.
>
>The exceptions?
>China, which was so isolationist and so poor that it wasn't seen as any 
>great threat, and whose own leaders were always so corrupt that it was 
>only communist in name.
>Israel, whose experiments with small scale communes were instrumental 
>in the technological, social, and economic success of the country.
>Lots of western and northern european countries have either dabbled  in 
>communism (e.g. Italy), or socialism, (e.g. Sweden) with much success, 
>and without the grotesque economic inequalities seen here in the USA. 
>
>
>And of course our most repugnant attack on communism and socialism 
>continues within our own borders, with the state sanctioned murders and 
>beatings of union organizers, persecution and prosecution of accused 
>communists, the unending pro-business, anti-communist propaganda, 
>McCarthy's witch hunts. (now re-invented as the Patriot acts), and the 
>almost complete sellout of media and government to commercial 
>interests.
>
>I'm sure that many will take exception to everything I've said. Feel 
>free to use facts to support your position.
>
>Oh... Mike, as I re-read this before posting, it seemed like I might be 
>attacking you. Actually I agree with everything you said, except 
>(maybe) that communism always fails.
>
>Thanks, Taryn
>ornae.com
>
>On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Mike Weaver wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Ah,  I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our "help" - it blew
>>up in places even where we weren't meddling.
>>My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated free
>>market economy and a pragmatic federal government.
>>Think, oh, Finland.  I do think the Constitution allows for national
>>health insurance: Quote:
>>
>>We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
>>Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility
>>, provide for the
>>common defence , promote
>>the general Welfare
>>, and secure the
>>Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
>>, do ordain
>> and establish this
>>Constitution for the United States of America.
>>
>>Falls under general Welfare
>>
>>Andy Karpay wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>...
>>>It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
>>>death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras 
>>>(Iran-Contra
>>>scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our "ally" of the day, and the
>>>proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.
>>>It is stated many times in this country that "communism has failed"
>>>therefore it is no good.  The truth is that much of communism's 
>>>failure,
>>>in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's intervention 
>>>to
>>>ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we 
>>>do
>>>have democratic communism).  The US's fear is that if the country is
>>>communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our own
>>>gain, and the gain of the wealthy.  Reme

Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

The top tax bracket under Nixon was 70%...

Doug Foskey wrote:

>Hakan,
> I was in Sweden in 1985 on a course with Ericcsson for 8 months. I found 
>Sweden high taxed, but using the tax money to help the residents. One example 
>would be that rent was subsidised.
> Probably Sweden has changed a lot from those days, but I know the political 
>stability has helped the country grow, and the Swedish people with it.
>
>regards Doug
>
>On Saturday 27 August 2005 9:03, Hakan Falk wrote:
>  
>
>>Chuck,
>>
>>What do you know about this and it was not long ago that US also had
>>an 80% top tax bracket. The Swedish tax laws are modelled after the
>>US, but you are right in that Sweden have 80% were US have 60-70%.
>>Then we come to deductions etc, and the picture is not that clear. US
>>and Sweden is much closer than many belive.
>>
>>Tax laws are not that simple, but on social security for its
>>citizens, Sweden is far better than US. According to general living
>>standard it is statistically far better than US, first or second
>>place in the world, were US is in the 6 to 8 bracket.
>>
>>Sweden with a total population (8 million), around half of Paris,
>>London or New York, have an amazing number of successful
>>international corporations.
>>
>>Hakan
>>
>>At 05:47 27/08/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So you think Sweden is a sucess? Try living there with a tax rate of 70%.
>>>
>>>Chuck
>>>
>>>  
>>>
From: TarynToo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo
Chavez
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:42:00 -0400

It's impossible to say "Communism would've collapsed even w/o our
"help"", since every state that has attempted communism, with few
exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some
combination of economic warfare, bribery and  corruption, economic and
military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy
fascist states.

The exceptions?
China, which was so isolationist and so poor that it wasn't seen as any
great threat, and whose own leaders were always so corrupt that it was
only communist in name.
Israel, whose experiments with small scale communes were instrumental
in the technological, social, and economic success of the country.
Lots of western and northern european countries have either dabbled  in
communism (e.g. Italy), or socialism, (e.g. Sweden) with much success,
and without the grotesque economic inequalities seen here in the USA.

And of course our most repugnant attack on communism and socialism
continues within our own borders, with the state sanctioned murders and
beatings of union organizers, persecution and prosecution of accused
communists, the unending pro-business, anti-communist propaganda,
McCarthy's witch hunts. (now re-invented as the Patriot acts), and the
almost complete sellout of media and government to commercial
interests.

I'm sure that many will take exception to everything I've said. Feel
free to use facts to support your position.

Oh... Mike, as I re-read this before posting, it seemed like I might be
attacking you. Actually I agree with everything you said, except
(maybe) that communism always fails.

Thanks, Taryn
ornae.com

On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Mike Weaver wrote:

>Ah,  I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our "help" - it
>blew up in places even where we weren't meddling.
>My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated
>free market economy and a pragmatic federal government.
>Think, oh, Finland.  I do think the Constitution allows for national
>health insurance: Quote:
>
>We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
>Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility
>, provide for
>the common defence ,
>promote the general Welfare
>, and secure the
>Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
>, do ordain
> and establish
>this Constitution for the United States of America.
>
>Falls under general Welfare
>
>Andy Karpay wrote:
>  
>
>>...
>>It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
>>death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras
>>(Iran-Contra
>>scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our "ally" of the day, and the
>>proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.
>>It is stated many times in

Re: [Biofuel] Another use for glycerine

2005-08-27 Thread Sir Woody Hackswell

If propylene glycol is an "antifreeze", couldn't it be added to bioD in winter?  Or am I showing my naivity? ;)
>>Renewable Alternatives, has developed a process for converting glycerin,
>>a byproduct of the biodiesel production process, into propylene glycol.>>Propylene glycol can be used as nontoxic antifreeze for automobiles.-- -Sir Woody Hackswell
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Re: [Biofuel] Ardis Streeter was Re: Robertson et al VS. followers

Not to beat a dead horse, but honestly, why would we be in the Middle 
East and for that matter even discussing biofuels if they wasn't related?
Why are we even concerned with Robertson's stupid remark? OIL. 

My desire to drive a fuel efficient car on non-Exxon-Halliburton-Saudi 
fuel is not just because I'm cheap, and I am, but I don't wish to support
the ugly infrastructure we've developed to support our non-sustainable 
way of life.  Everyone thinks I'm a kook, although less so since gas has 
3.12 a gallon here in DC. 

Maybe we should organize teach-ins, and try to share the knowledge in a 
neutral manner.  

I would  like to be a citizen of the world, not just the US. I truly 
think the US has many wonderful points, but never in my life have I felt 
that we have been so of course.

And, though I guess it is too late for Ardis Streeter, there are pleny 
of  "on topic"  lists out there.  I tried them but stuck with this one. 
I like the global view.
It's good to have your beliefs challenged.

-Mike

Appal Energy wrote:

>Ardis,
>
>  
>
>>All this talk of politics as far
>>as I am concerned is for the most
>>part  way out of line,
>>
>>
>
>And just exactly what part, in your considered opinion, is the portion 
>that is not out of line? Or is that remark simply a general, 
>all-inclusive, pejorative intended to dismiss 99% of the jigsaw puzzle 
>of human endeavor that isn't directly liquid fuel and doesn't go 
>specifically into your fuel tank?
>
>If so, might I suggest that you attempt to broaden your "line" to a 
>plane so that it becomes more inclusive of all those aspects that 
>encompass and affect it?
>
>May I also suggest that if your intent is to achieve the greatest amount 
>of environmental benefit in the least amount of time, with what are 
>usually limitted resources, that you learn to address and burn the 
>candle from both ends, both literal and political. The animal that the 
>world's peoples are up against needs to be corraled on all sides, not 
>just gated out of one community or another, leaving it to reconstitute 
>itself further on and wreak havoc elsewhere at will.
>
>Sincerely spoken,
>
>Todd Swearingen
>
>
>ardis streeter wrote:
>
>  
>
>>   Greetings to all, I am an avid alternative fuel
>>advocate who is building a large home sized processor.
>>I do hope you will read this and maybe it will help
>>get us back on track!!All this talk of politics as far
>>as I am concerned is for the most part  way out of
>>line,and with a lot of misconceptions toward a
>>political adjenda.We All need to get focused on what
>>and where we are headed with the alternative energy
>>issues,and stop talking about all these   politics,
>>and put our time and money where our mouths are and DO
>>Something constructive !! Sincerly Spoken.Duff
>>Streeter
>>
>>--- Sean Michael Dargan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello Cliff, 
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>  
>>>
I am a former officer in the USAF so perhaps I do
 



>>>have a fondness for 
>>>   
>>>
>>>  
>>>
the fine, exceedingly capable and patriotic  men
 



>>>and
>>>women serving >to protect and defend a country I
>>>personally feel is a  pretty good >place to live.
>>>Perhaps I am living under some delusions and if that
>>>is >the case then I'm sure someone will try to
>>>correct
>>>the errors of my >ways.
>>>
>>>Just a quick point or two from another who is also
>>>looking for the path...   
>>>
>>>The USA is, in fact, "a pretty good place to live,"
>>>but it is far from an innocent victim, as many who
>>>live here choose to believe.  The historical
>>>sortcomings of this county deserve much closer
>>>scrutiny if you hope to live an enlightened life as
>>>a
>>>modern US citizen.  
>>>
>>>May I suggest a book?  Howard Zinn's masterpiece "A
>>>People's History of of the United States" should be
>>>required reading for all US citizens (even a
>>>naturalized citizen like me!); it will help shine an
>>>honest light on the historical behavior of our
>>>country, to the contrary of much that we read in our
>>>shool history books.  
>>>
>>>After that, perhaps, a brief foray into Noam Chomsky
>>>can really put a point on the very recent history of
>>>US hegemony and covert interventionism (Chile, El
>>>Salvador, Nicaragua, etc.) particularly in the name
>>>of
>>>battling communism and terrorism... or as GHW Bush
>>>put
>>>it, "defending the non-negotiable American
>>>lifestyle."
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks for listening to my two cents worth... Oh,
>>>and
>>>thank you for your service to our country.  May
>>>those
>>>exceedingly capable men and women of which you speak
>>>be brought home to focus that energy on more
>>>constructive pursuits!
>>>
>>>Be well,
>>>
>>>Sean Michael Dargan
>>>Madison, WI
>>>
>>>P.S.  I, too, hope to hear more about titration
>>>before
>>>long!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>Start your day with Yahoo!

Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

A note on Keith's last point - some of the BD crowd in Pittsboro 
reported getting notices from the IRS and (or?) state tax people re the 
over the road tax.
Might be good to keep a log if you are living here in the land of the 
free and the home of the brave.

-Mike

Keith Addison wrote:

>Dear Pannirselvam
>
>  
>
>>   Dear  Wdt
>>
>>
>>  As motor made in Brasil to run on ethanol  has  engine design 
>>with higher compression than gasoline  car , you  can think of 
>>importing  the same  as the technology envolves  not only the engine 
>>, but also several other parts of the car.As I understand , may be 
>>Keith knows much better , the  bioethanol fuel  programme made in 
>>Australia is not yet made  suceeesful one.
>>
>>
>
>I don't know any better Pan. I think you're right, and I think they 
>made it a maximum of 10% with 90% gasoline, following a disgraceful 
>disinformation campaign against ethanol. That was a couple of years 
>ago, I think it's all in the list archives. I haven't followed it 
>closely since then. Last I heard they were proposing big taxes on 
>biodiesel, including homebrewers, but I don't know what's become of 
>that either. Maybe this is what one should expect from the world's #1 
>coal exporter and #2 global warming denier. Australians themselves 
>are another matter, I don't know how long they'd accept this kind of 
>treatment.
>
>Regards
>
>Keith
>
>
>  
>
>>  Regrading making etanol from  waste orange we  can help you  as 
>>this can be made  using simple  technology
>>
>>sd
>>Pannirselvam
>>Brasil 
>>
>>On 8/26/05, Wireless Data Transfer 
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since 
>>nobody responded to the first time, please advice!
>>
>>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
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>
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>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Best van for WVO?

Where are you?  There isn't much in the US, but Europe and other places 
have pretty good options.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>Advice requested - What's a decent diesel van that could hold six or seven
>people comfortably? Can be a traditional style van, or a bigger model - a
>mail truck or small step van that we can make into a miniature
>camper/day-tripper. I'm looking to replace a Grand Caravan with something
>that will take a WVO conversion.
>
>
>
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>
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>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread TarynToo

There are "any number of people" who are calling for Bush to be tried  
for treason and war crimes. We certainly don't want him to be  
assassinated! God forbid, we don't need any NeoCon martyrs here.
We do expect that he and most of his cabinet will be hung or imprisoned  
after the trials  


We're not calling for murder, we're calling for justice and return to  
the rule of law.

Taryn
ornae.com

Keith said to David who said to Keith

> >>>I'd personally rate Robertsons comments as up there with any
> >>>number of people who advocate the death of Bush for crimes against
> >>>humanity or somesuch.  If Bush were assasinated would these people
> >>>really be responsible?
> >>
> >>Maybe I didn't notice but I have not heard of anyone calling for
> >>the death of Bush. Excepting some of the victims of course, but not
> >>anybody in the US, which I think is what you're talking about.
> >
> >Surely you could imagine such a thing?  Perhaps around a coffee table?
>
> My imagination's quite intact thankyou, but you twice propose this
> "any number of people" calling for Bush's death to support your
> argument and now it turns out they're imaginery. Is it you who's
> sitting around a coffee table?
>
> ... and much more...


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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread Doug Foskey

Thanks: I find that illuminating to say the least. I personally hope that the 
US does take this further, otherwise how can they insist foreign powers 
prosecute their citizens for similar acts (including for instance statements 
by Mullahs)

regards Doug

On Sunday 28 August 2005 8:26, S. Chapin wrote:
> Dear List,
> A bit about the legal ramifications, though there will be none, of
> Pat Robertson's statements concerning Chavez.
> http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20050826.html  by
> John Dean .
> Cheers,
> S. Chapin
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread S. Chapin

Dear List,
A bit about the legal ramifications, though there will be none, of 
Pat Robertson's statements concerning Chavez. 
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20050826.html  by
John Dean .
Cheers,
S. Chapin

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Re: [Biofuel] Comment on Aussie ethanol & Biodiesel.

2005-08-27 Thread Doug Foskey

Keith,
 As an Aussie, I have to agree with you. The Ethanol debate was derailed by 
vested interests. The issue was that some fuel discounters were adulterating 
fuel with low taxed substitutes and this was causing issues with some cars. 
 This misinformation now means that the market is distorted against ethanol.

 There is a tax on home-brew Biodiesel, when used on the road. Off road use 
does not attract this tax. I have never heard of anyone actually being 
prosecuted for this offense...

regards Doug

ps: I think Robertson should be charged with inciting terrorism



On Sunday 28 August 2005 4:40, Keith Addison wrote:
> Dear Pannirselvam
>
> >Dear  Wdt
> >
> >
> >   As motor made in Brasil to run on ethanol  has  engine design
> >with higher compression than gasoline  car , you  can think of
> >importing  the same  as the technology envolves  not only the engine
> >, but also several other parts of the car.As I understand , may be
> >Keith knows much better , the  bioethanol fuel  programme made in
> >Australia is not yet made  suceeesful one.
>
> I don't know any better Pan. I think you're right, and I think they
> made it a maximum of 10% with 90% gasoline, following a disgraceful
> disinformation campaign against ethanol. That was a couple of years
> ago, I think it's all in the list archives. I haven't followed it
> closely since then. Last I heard they were proposing big taxes on
> biodiesel, including homebrewers, but I don't know what's become of
> that either. Maybe this is what one should expect from the world's #1
> coal exporter and #2 global warming denier. Australians themselves
> are another matter, I don't know how long they'd accept this kind of
> treatment.
>
> Regards
>
> Keith
>
> >   Regrading making etanol from  waste orange we  can help you  as
> >this can be made  using simple  technology
> >
> >sd
> >Pannirselvam
> >Brasil
> >
> >On 8/26/05, Wireless Data Transfer
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since
> >nobody responded to the first time, please advice!
>
> 
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Biofuel] Another use for glycerine

2005-08-27 Thread bob allen

Nanny, you are right that propylene glycol is used in numerous products, due to 
its relative 
non-toxicity.  Are you confusing nontoxic propylene glycol with toxic ethylene 
glycol?

for an msds see  http://www.the-buying-group.com/pgmsds.php


propylene glycol is metabolized in the body via oxidation to pyruvate, an ever 
so normal metabolite 
  of all carbohydrate we eat.


Nancy Canning wrote:
> Propylene glycol as it is used tons and tons of products including 
> industrial cleaners, shampoo's, toothpaste, creams,  etc.  It is very toxic, 
> the industry even has it in children's prescriptions. Wonder if this type of 
> propylene glycol has less poison/carcinogenic toxicity qualities vrs what is 
> out there right now?  Anybody have any info?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 6:48 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] Another use for glycerine
> 
> 
> 
>>the subject of glycerine by-product, and what to do with it, seems to come 
>>up
>>quite frequently so i thought i'd pass on this bit of news.
>>
>>cheers,
>>
>>-chris
>>
>>=
>>
>>From: Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: biodiesel -> glycerin -> propylene glycol
>>
>>Renewable Alternatives, has developed a process for converting glycerin,
>>a byproduct of the biodiesel production process, into propylene glycol.
>>Propylene glycol can be used as nontoxic antifreeze for automobiles.
>>
>>Suppes said this technology can reduce the cost of biodiesel production
>>by as much as $0.40 per gallon of biodiesel. The market for propylene
>>glycol already is established, with a billion pounds produced a year.
>>
>>Read more at http://www.green-trust.org
>>
>>http://www.green-trust.org/2005/08/glycerin-biodiesel-byproduct-makes.html
>>
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>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread Appal Energy

Dogonnit Keith,

If the guy is going to behave in such a fashion, those who have to 
suffer it should at least be able to grill him about his generalities 
and stereotyping until he's forced to admit that there is a lot more to 
the bag of beans than he would care to recognize.

Just throttling the guy lets him off too easy. Now it's he who gets to 
claim that his sensibilities were offended, further enforcing and 
propigating his peculiar beliefs elsewhere.

Give 'em enough rope to hang themselves. If they're smart, they won't 
use it all. If they aren't, the world should at least be given the 
pleasure of watching them swing at the end of the yardarm of their own 
making.

Todd Swearingen



Keith Addison wrote:

>>   Greetings to all, I am an avid alternative fuel
>>advocate who is building a large home sized processor.
>>I do hope you will read this and maybe it will help
>>get us back on track!!All this talk of politics as far
>>as I am concerned is for the most part  way out of
>>line,and with a lot of misconceptions toward a
>>political adjenda.We All need to get focused on what
>>and where we are headed with the alternative energy
>>issues,and stop talking about all these   politics,
>>and put our time and money where our mouths are and DO
>>Something constructive !! Sincerly Spoken.Duff
>>Streeter
>>
>>
>
>Exit Duff Streeter. Sad to say, after more than two years. But he was 
>told about this, like everyone else - twice in his case:
>
>List rules:
>http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
>5-May/07.html
>Or:
>http://snipurl.com/gi45
>
>See "Open discussion", and the "Note" at the end: "There aren't a lot 
>of rules, but that is one of them: no calls for restricted 
>discussion. It's a discussion list, not a less-discussion list."
>
>In other words, NO TOPIC-COPS!
>
> From a recent post, Robert's reply to Clif:
>
>  
>
>>>Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
>>>renewable energy sources.
>>>  
>>>
>>  Some of these issues may seem tangential at first.  Close
>>examination, however, will reveal how energy use, foreign policy,
>>religious perspective, racism and many other "isms" blend to create
>>the overall milieu in which the topic of biofuels exist.  We who have
>>been here for any length of time agree by consensus that which is
>>deserving of discussion and that which is not.  It's remarkably self
>>regulating, for the most part.
>>
>>
>
>Yes it is, for the most part. Once again, nobody's forcing anyone to 
>read anything they don't want to read, messages have subject titles 
>after all. What does it amount to anyway? "You're only allowed to 
>talk about what **I** want to talk about"? Usually it's either that 
>or a poorly disguised demand for censorship. Or a complaint that 
>there isn't any censorship, which looks like Duff's case. Not that 
>he'd call it censorship.
>
>Ho-hum.
>
>Anyway, the rule is enforced.
>
>Best wishes
>
>Keith Addison
>Journey to Forever
>KYOTO Pref., Japan
>http://journeytoforever.org/
>Biofuel list owner
>
> 
>  
>
>>--- Sean Michael Dargan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello Cliff,
>>>
>>>  
>>>
I am a former officer in the USAF so perhaps I do


>>>have a fondness for
>>>  
>>>
the fine, exceedingly capable and patriotic  men


>>>and
>>>women serving >to protect and defend a country I
>>>personally feel is a  pretty good >place to live.
>>>Perhaps I am living under some delusions and if that
>>>is >the case then I'm sure someone will try to
>>>correct
>>>the errors of my >ways.
>>>
>>>Just a quick point or two from another who is also
>>>looking for the path...
>>>
>>>The USA is, in fact, "a pretty good place to live,"
>>>but it is far from an innocent victim, as many who
>>>live here choose to believe.  The historical
>>>sortcomings of this county deserve much closer
>>>scrutiny if you hope to live an enlightened life as
>>>a
>>>modern US citizen.
>>>
>>>May I suggest a book?  Howard Zinn's masterpiece "A
>>>People's History of of the United States" should be
>>>required reading for all US citizens (even a
>>>naturalized citizen like me!); it will help shine an
>>>honest light on the historical behavior of our
>>>country, to the contrary of much that we read in our
>>>shool history books.
>>>
>>>After that, perhaps, a brief foray into Noam Chomsky
>>>can really put a point on the very recent history of
>>>US hegemony and covert interventionism (Chile, El
>>>Salvador, Nicaragua, etc.) particularly in the name
>>>of
>>>battling communism and terrorism... or as GHW Bush
>>>put
>>>it, "defending the non-negotiable American
>>>lifestyle."
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks for listening to my two cents worth... Oh,
>>>and
>>>thank you for your service to our country.  May
>>>those
>>>exceedingly capable men and women of which you speak
>>>be brought home to focus that energy on more
>>>constructive pursuits!
>>>
>>>Be well,
>>>
>>>Sean Michael

[Biofuel] Best van for WVO?

2005-08-27 Thread rob

Advice requested - What's a decent diesel van that could hold six or seven
people comfortably? Can be a traditional style van, or a bigger model - a
mail truck or small step van that we can make into a miniature
camper/day-tripper. I'm looking to replace a Grand Caravan with something
that will take a WVO conversion.



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[Biofuel] WVO problem

2005-08-27 Thread Thomas Kelly




 I've been following the 
discussion re: restaurants and the contracts they may have with grease 
haulers (renderers)  with great interest. I have a sinking feeling in the 
pit of my stomach.
 I started 
with small (1L - 4L) test batches, first on virgin oil and then on WVO 
samples obtained from several local restaurants. I narrowed my suppliers down to 
those restaurants that gave me the best oil (titrations of 2.5g/L or less). 
Following directions from JtF, and with help from Keith, Todd Swearington, and 
Marc A, I moved to 15L 
batches and this past week finished a 130L 
processor and have run two batches. The first has been washed and is drying, the 
other is in the wash phase.
 With 20 gal BD in with my 
heating oil 30 gal of beautifully clear BD in storage tanks, and another 60+ 
gal. just about ready, I am confident that I can make BD. I was getting ready to 
travel from upstate NY to Florida to check out a couple of Mercedes Diesels when 
I read the problem Frieda was having with grease haulers. 
 I intentionally went to 
small restaurants/diners. The three at the top of my list (best oil in town) 
were all happy to let me take their oil and the 20 gal/week was enough to get me 
started. 
 PROBLEM:  They all 
have grease dumpsters. Two of the three set the oil aside for me in 5 gal 
containers. The other one told me to help myself to the oil in the dumpster: 
"take as much as you want".
 Am I stupid or what? It 
never occurred to me that I was stealing oil from anyone. I suspect that the 
people that gave me permission to take the oil don't know all the details of 
their agreement with the haulers.
  Todd Swearingen's 
response to the problem (see below)
seems to put it in perspective. 
 QUESTION: How have the 
experienced BD producers handled the matter?
- Do they have written 
agreements?
- Any advise that might 
make a potential supplier more 
  likely to go with me 
rather than the renderer?
- My best option for 
replacing their dumpsters are 55 gal 
  drums   any 
other ideas?
 
 I've gotten this 
far   .   any advise/encouragement would be 
appreciated.
 
 My next pickup is Mon 
8/29. I hope to get to talk w. the owners/managers of the restaurants. Wish me 
luck.
 
   
Tom
 
 "Haulers have only three legitimate complaints 
with "greasel" owners and biodiesel brewers that approach a level of 
legality, at least relative to their involvement.1) If a 
restauranteur has signed a contract with a hauler or renderer that 
stipulates that all fats and oils coming from that establishment during the 
contractual period belong to them, whether in the dumpster or not, they have 
a legitimate complaint and could approach the restaurant owner for breech of 
contract. Some contracts only state that the grease belongs to the hauler 
once it's in the dumpster/drum.2) If a "greasel" owner or biodiesel 
brewer removes feedstock from a container that belongs to the hauler, the 
hauler has grounds to pursue a complaint of theft. If the amount of 
grease/oil removed can be proven, whether it be a single instance or over a 
series of events, and the value of the grease/oil meets or exceeds the 
dollar threshold for felony theft, the person who has removed the grease 
could be held liable in a criminal court.3) A few states require 
that the hauler be licensed. If not, fines could be levied.As a 
general rule, haulers literally make bank on the expected volumes of 
grease/oil from each of its clients. If the expected/historical volume 
differs from the actual volume, they tend to get extremely pissy and play 
the part of the 800 pound gorilla, making threats of all manner, sometimes 
legitimate and sometimes not, in order to resecure their 
feedstock.It's best that every "greasel" owner, biodieseler and 
restauranteur know of the potential legal snags if they expect to keep their 
headache levels at zero.The easiest solution is for the homebrewer 
or greaseler to pre-arrange supplying the same type of container(s) at no 
charge to the restaurant when any existing contract is about to expire and 
service them regularly. The problem usually found with such a scenario is 
that while the intentions of the homebrewer may be good, their interest 
often wains, leaving the restaurant in a lurch. As well, many restaurants 
expect their haulers to take everything that gets dumped in the barrels, 
not just the "cream" off the top. Many places throw their "Boil Out" 
(lye and water run through the fryers to clean them) in with their 
grease. And many throw their end of day meats into the same 
drums/dumpsters.If a person is going to be looking for grease supplies, 
they need to be prepared to take the bad with the good and be capable of 
processing the bad along with the good. Otherwise they have the potential to 
become an environmental hazard that outstrips whatever environmental benefit 
they provide.There is,

Re: [Biofuel] Apartment dwellers - was Re: (no subject)

2005-08-27 Thread Bob Clark

Hello Kirk and all,
I happen to have been born in Oregon and lived there (Central Point) until about ten years ago when business expansion brought me east. I only pointed that out as a bit of info -- I don't believe I ever indicated I had any problem with it?? In fact my wife's best friend still pumps fuel on Crater Lake Hwy, near Medford, so if not for that scenario she would be out of work. . . The point was that in the states that don't have "attendants" pumping for you, no one would be likely to see or question what fuel you were putting in what container??
Bob C.-Original Message- From: Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Aug 27, 2005 10:16 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Apartment dwellers - was Re: (no subject)
It was placed on the ballot and was decided by the people. As a result I don't have to get fuel on my hands. Yeah, sure, you can use gloves but it is a PITA and we are cheaper than Washington or California, our neighbors, and they make you pump your own. As for jobs-- why not? Corporations would replace us all with robots if they could. Ghandi understood the problem and organized the wearing of Indian homespun instead of machine made from Manchester. If your own future was a bit more uncertain in your mind you might have more empathy.
KirkBob Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello all,This subject I do know enough to weigh in on "depending on where you live"!!!Yes indeed, the US standard for plastic jugs is a color coding as John outlined. Most fuel stations are now self-service (with the exceptions of states like Oregon who don't allow self-service -- (in the name of protecting jobs) --

Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.

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Re: [Biofuel] Lies? Hmmmm

2005-08-27 Thread Robert Ingram




I agree although Moor's film is a bit over the top 
certain moments are compelling . The scene in the Florida school when Bush 
is  advised of the attack on the Trade center could hardly be faked . The 
man was clueless and it showed .  The man is nothing but a willing stooge 
for the real power in this country

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Douglas 
  Smith 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:12 
  PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Lies? H
  It was asked:
  
Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and 
  numerous others are doing at peddling lies 
  ?Michael Moore's opinions are just that. The 
  facts that he sites are fact. As an example the film F 9/11 has been reviewed 
  for accuracy and factualness by several independent groups and has been proven 
  factual - repeatedly.Show us one these purported lies you refer to and 
  we'll either find it's truth, or just opinion. As Molly Ivans said regarding 
  this same discussion: "Each of us has a right 
  to our own opinions. We do not have a right to our own facts." Anyone who 
  calls Mr. Moore's facts lies is a liar himself and is projecting!Doug
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread Brian Rodgers

If nothing else, these political discussions do get everyone to come
out and talk. I think it is great. Freedom of speech is still alive
here, whether we talk about making alternative fuel, or politics. I
agree that  talking is where it's at.  Besides, as a newcomer, when I
ask questions about making some form of biofuel,  I find out they have
been extensively covered in the archives. I don't blame anyone for
wanting to talk about what is happening in current events. As an
alternative style technician, I get a little tired of the same old
questions from people that don't care to figure it out for themselves
at least a little bit before they ask.
Keep on, keeping on.

I do feel a little quilty because for the most part I have not
experimented with any of the biofuels ideas I have received here. This
is not for lack of effort on my part. I am working hard to get my
workshop back together after a few years of total inactivity.

One of the things I have acomplished is to track down and reconnect
with a local metal fabricator whom I hope to have inspired to help me
design and create the processor drums for my ethanol projects and my
new found enthusiasm for making bio-diesel. In fact, a friend  has
offered her Mercedes Benz 300TD. Now  I have more motivation to get
real and we all know the hardest part of any project is getting
started.
Sincerely,
Brian Rodgers.

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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

>Greetings to all, I am an avid alternative fuel
>advocate who is building a large home sized processor.
>I do hope you will read this and maybe it will help
>get us back on track!!All this talk of politics as far
>as I am concerned is for the most part  way out of
>line,and with a lot of misconceptions toward a
>political adjenda.We All need to get focused on what
>and where we are headed with the alternative energy
>issues,and stop talking about all these   politics,
>and put our time and money where our mouths are and DO
>Something constructive !! Sincerly Spoken.Duff
>Streeter

Exit Duff Streeter. Sad to say, after more than two years. But he was 
told about this, like everyone else - twice in his case:

List rules:
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-May/07.html
Or:
http://snipurl.com/gi45

See "Open discussion", and the "Note" at the end: "There aren't a lot 
of rules, but that is one of them: no calls for restricted 
discussion. It's a discussion list, not a less-discussion list."

In other words, NO TOPIC-COPS!

 From a recent post, Robert's reply to Clif:

> > Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
> > renewable energy sources.
>
>   Some of these issues may seem tangential at first.  Close
>examination, however, will reveal how energy use, foreign policy,
>religious perspective, racism and many other "isms" blend to create
>the overall milieu in which the topic of biofuels exist.  We who have
>been here for any length of time agree by consensus that which is
>deserving of discussion and that which is not.  It's remarkably self
>regulating, for the most part.

Yes it is, for the most part. Once again, nobody's forcing anyone to 
read anything they don't want to read, messages have subject titles 
after all. What does it amount to anyway? "You're only allowed to 
talk about what **I** want to talk about"? Usually it's either that 
or a poorly disguised demand for censorship. Or a complaint that 
there isn't any censorship, which looks like Duff's case. Not that 
he'd call it censorship.

Ho-hum.

Anyway, the rule is enforced.

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner

 
>--- Sean Michael Dargan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
> > Hello Cliff,
> >
> > >I am a former officer in the USAF so perhaps I do
> > have a fondness for
> > >the fine, exceedingly capable and patriotic  men
> > and
> > women serving >to protect and defend a country I
> > personally feel is a  pretty good >place to live.
> > Perhaps I am living under some delusions and if that
> > is >the case then I'm sure someone will try to
> > correct
> > the errors of my >ways.
> >
> > Just a quick point or two from another who is also
> > looking for the path...
> >
> > The USA is, in fact, "a pretty good place to live,"
> > but it is far from an innocent victim, as many who
> > live here choose to believe.  The historical
> > sortcomings of this county deserve much closer
> > scrutiny if you hope to live an enlightened life as
> > a
> > modern US citizen.
> >
> > May I suggest a book?  Howard Zinn's masterpiece "A
> > People's History of of the United States" should be
> > required reading for all US citizens (even a
> > naturalized citizen like me!); it will help shine an
> > honest light on the historical behavior of our
> > country, to the contrary of much that we read in our
> > shool history books.
> >
> > After that, perhaps, a brief foray into Noam Chomsky
> > can really put a point on the very recent history of
> > US hegemony and covert interventionism (Chile, El
> > Salvador, Nicaragua, etc.) particularly in the name
> > of
> > battling communism and terrorism... or as GHW Bush
> > put
> > it, "defending the non-negotiable American
> > lifestyle."
> >
> >
> > Thanks for listening to my two cents worth... Oh,
> > and
> > thank you for your service to our country.  May
> > those
> > exceedingly capable men and women of which you speak
> > be brought home to focus that energy on more
> > constructive pursuits!
> >
> > Be well,
> >
> > Sean Michael Dargan
> > Madison, WI
> >
> > P.S.  I, too, hope to hear more about titration
> > before
> > long!


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Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

Dear Pannirselvam

>Dear  Wdt
>
>
>   As motor made in Brasil to run on ethanol  has  engine design 
>with higher compression than gasoline  car , you  can think of 
>importing  the same  as the technology envolves  not only the engine 
>, but also several other parts of the car.As I understand , may be 
>Keith knows much better , the  bioethanol fuel  programme made in 
>Australia is not yet made  suceeesful one.

I don't know any better Pan. I think you're right, and I think they 
made it a maximum of 10% with 90% gasoline, following a disgraceful 
disinformation campaign against ethanol. That was a couple of years 
ago, I think it's all in the list archives. I haven't followed it 
closely since then. Last I heard they were proposing big taxes on 
biodiesel, including homebrewers, but I don't know what's become of 
that either. Maybe this is what one should expect from the world's #1 
coal exporter and #2 global warming denier. Australians themselves 
are another matter, I don't know how long they'd accept this kind of 
treatment.

Regards

Keith

>   Regrading making etanol from  waste orange we  can help you  as 
>this can be made  using simple  technology
>
>sd
>Pannirselvam
>Brasil 
>
>On 8/26/05, Wireless Data Transfer 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since 
>nobody responded to the first time, please advice!

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[Biofuel] Ardis Streeter was Re: Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread Appal Energy

Ardis,

> All this talk of politics as far
> as I am concerned is for the most
> part  way out of line,

And just exactly what part, in your considered opinion, is the portion 
that is not out of line? Or is that remark simply a general, 
all-inclusive, pejorative intended to dismiss 99% of the jigsaw puzzle 
of human endeavor that isn't directly liquid fuel and doesn't go 
specifically into your fuel tank?

If so, might I suggest that you attempt to broaden your "line" to a 
plane so that it becomes more inclusive of all those aspects that 
encompass and affect it?

May I also suggest that if your intent is to achieve the greatest amount 
of environmental benefit in the least amount of time, with what are 
usually limitted resources, that you learn to address and burn the 
candle from both ends, both literal and political. The animal that the 
world's peoples are up against needs to be corraled on all sides, not 
just gated out of one community or another, leaving it to reconstitute 
itself further on and wreak havoc elsewhere at will.

Sincerely spoken,

Todd Swearingen


ardis streeter wrote:

>Greetings to all, I am an avid alternative fuel
>advocate who is building a large home sized processor.
>I do hope you will read this and maybe it will help
>get us back on track!!All this talk of politics as far
>as I am concerned is for the most part  way out of
>line,and with a lot of misconceptions toward a
>political adjenda.We All need to get focused on what
>and where we are headed with the alternative energy
>issues,and stop talking about all these   politics,
>and put our time and money where our mouths are and DO
>Something constructive !! Sincerly Spoken.Duff
>Streeter
>
>--- Sean Michael Dargan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hello Cliff, 
>>
>>
>>
>>>I am a former officer in the USAF so perhaps I do
>>>  
>>>
>>have a fondness for 
>>
>>
>>>the fine, exceedingly capable and patriotic  men
>>>  
>>>
>>and
>>women serving >to protect and defend a country I
>>personally feel is a  pretty good >place to live.
>>Perhaps I am living under some delusions and if that
>>is >the case then I'm sure someone will try to
>>correct
>>the errors of my >ways.
>>
>>Just a quick point or two from another who is also
>>looking for the path...   
>>
>>The USA is, in fact, "a pretty good place to live,"
>>but it is far from an innocent victim, as many who
>>live here choose to believe.  The historical
>>sortcomings of this county deserve much closer
>>scrutiny if you hope to live an enlightened life as
>>a
>>modern US citizen.  
>>
>>May I suggest a book?  Howard Zinn's masterpiece "A
>>People's History of of the United States" should be
>>required reading for all US citizens (even a
>>naturalized citizen like me!); it will help shine an
>>honest light on the historical behavior of our
>>country, to the contrary of much that we read in our
>>shool history books.  
>>
>>After that, perhaps, a brief foray into Noam Chomsky
>>can really put a point on the very recent history of
>>US hegemony and covert interventionism (Chile, El
>>Salvador, Nicaragua, etc.) particularly in the name
>>of
>>battling communism and terrorism... or as GHW Bush
>>put
>>it, "defending the non-negotiable American
>>lifestyle."
>> 
>>
>>Thanks for listening to my two cents worth... Oh,
>>and
>>thank you for your service to our country.  May
>>those
>>exceedingly capable men and women of which you speak
>>be brought home to focus that energy on more
>>constructive pursuits!
>>
>>Be well,
>>
>>Sean Michael Dargan
>>Madison, WI
>>
>>P.S.  I, too, hope to hear more about titration
>>before
>>long!
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
>>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
>> 
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>  
>
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>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
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>>archives (50,000 messages):
>>
>>
>>
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>  
>
>>
>>
>
>
>__
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>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
>http://mail.yahoo.com 
>
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>  
>

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[Biofuel] Religion, Politics Biofuels, and Thanks!

2005-08-27 Thread des

There's been a lot of discussion on this list regarding religions and 
politics lately; as well as the diversity in the biofuels subjects.  (I 
signed up back when I did, not knowing about other fuels, just looking 
for more info on biodiesel...)  And the expanse of knowledge displayed 
regarding biofuels has really been an eye-opener.  And then, as an added 
bonus, the international perspectives on the political and religious 
conditions we find around the world have brought to my awareness 
information and perspectives that I probably wouldn't have found just by 
googling, and certainly wouldn't have discovered had I been isolated to 
the paltry servings of information distributed by the US television 
"nooze" programs.

I can now clearly see what I only had suspicions about, how closely 
related politics, big industry, religion, etc. are connected, with at 
some level or another a main thread that follows through each subject, 
and that being the energy which is available, and what we are prepared 
to do (either as individuals or as a collective...  country / planet) to 
obtain our "fair share"

I've wondered at times what kind of demographics this list covers, I 
know it is international, but it would be interesting to know 
percentages of folks who are inhabitants of the US, Canada, oil 
producing countries, oil poor countries, etc.  I guess my curiosity 
stems from the desire to know who is availing themselves of this great 
information tool...

The primary purpose of this post is, I suppose, to first thank Keith for 
providing this forum for all this variety of discussion, but also those 
participants who take the time to bring information to the table so that 
the rest of us, who may not be as fully informed as we wish / thought we 
were, can get a clearer image of the world around us.

Religion and politics develop illusions that separate people, the 
biofuels list has the ability to bring us back together.

Thank you. 

doug swanson


-- 
All generalizations are false.  Including this one.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.
No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.
All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. 


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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread Garth & Kim Travis

Well said Gustl,
This list has proven to me how little I know, so many times.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:34 AM 8/27/2005, you wrote:
>Hallo Folks,
>
>Ja,  let's  not go there.  Let us go here instead.  Unless people have
>all  the  information  they  are  able  they  will not be able to make
>intelligent  or wise decisions.  We need to know that when we are told
>something  that  the  source  is routinely as accurate and truthful as
>possible and we need to know which sources are not so we can stay away
>from those.
>
>There  are  folks  out there, and I know some of them, who limit their
>input  to sources which reflect only their particular mindset and they
>reject  information  from other sources as "false" or "biased" whether
>or  not that is indeed true.  They want the world to be a mirror image
>of  their  cherished beliefs whether or not the beliefs are true, good
>or wise.  That makes no sense.
>
>I  believe  I have said this before but I believe that the information
>we garner and through which we sift is biofuel for the mind.  Politics
>may  be  and  often  is  heavily discussed but through this we gain an
>understanding of others who may be vastly different from ourselves and
>we  come  to  learn that although there are many differences we have a
>common  thread  running  through  this  which is that we wish good for
>ourselves  and  no  harm  to  others.  What gets in the way of this is
>partisanship  whether  it is religious, political, economic, racial or
>whatever  else.   Through these discussions we get closer to the truth
>of things and become closer to being an organic whole.
>
>If we are to become the best people we can be living in the best world
>we  can  we  need  to listen to others and examine ourselves and if we
>find ourselves lacking we need to get into line with what is right and
>good  or  if we find others lacking we need to point it out to them so
>that  they  have  the  same opportunity of getting into line with that
>which is right and good.
>
>To   limit   the  discourse  on  this  list  to the physical mechanics
>of biofuel production is to limit ones understanding of what "biofuel"
>is  and  what  it  can become.  If you are not prepared to expand your
>limits  friend then you have chosen the wrong list.  This is where the
>sorting  and  weeding is done.  This is the place where we become part
>of  the  one, friends.  We point out the flaws where we find them that
>we  may  understand more and correct the mistakes we find in ourselves
>and elsewhere as we are able. Welcome to biofuels. ;o)
>
>Happy Happy,
>
>Gustl
>--



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Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

2005-08-27 Thread TarynToo

Oh, Chucky... You should have followed the link: 


It's clear that Sweden is a success, furthermore it succeeds for many 
more of its citizens than the USA. The ugliest part of the USA's 
productivity and per-capita income figures is how much the tiny 
fraction of the hyper-rich distort those figures. Even as our apparent 
per-capita income rises, the poor and the middle class are all getting 
poorer.

Taryn
ornae.com

On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:47 PM, Charles Heinitz wrote:

> So you think Sweden is a sucess? Try living there with a tax rate of 
> 70%.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>> From: TarynToo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo
>> Chavez
>> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:42:00 -0400
>>
>> It's impossible to say "Communism would've collapsed even w/o our
>> "help"", since every state that has attempted communism, with few
>> exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some
>> combination of economic warfare, bribery and  corruption, economic and
>> military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy
>> fascist states.
>>
>> The exceptions?
>> China, which was so isolationist and so poor that it wasn't seen as 
>> any
>> great threat, and whose own leaders were always so corrupt that it was
>> only communist in name.
>> Israel, whose experiments with small scale communes were instrumental
>> in the technological, social, and economic success of the country.
>> Lots of western and northern european countries have either dabbled  
>> in
>> communism (e.g. Italy), or socialism, (e.g. Sweden) with much success,
>> and without the grotesque economic inequalities seen here in the USA.
>> 
>>
>> And of course our most repugnant attack on communism and socialism
>> continues within our own borders, with the state sanctioned murders 
>> and
>> beatings of union organizers, persecution and prosecution of accused
>> communists, the unending pro-business, anti-communist propaganda,
>> McCarthy's witch hunts. (now re-invented as the Patriot acts), and the
>> almost complete sellout of media and government to commercial
>> interests.
>>
>> I'm sure that many will take exception to everything I've said. Feel
>> free to use facts to support your position.
>>
>> Oh... Mike, as I re-read this before posting, it seemed like I might 
>> be
>> attacking you. Actually I agree with everything you said, except
>> (maybe) that communism always fails.
>>
>> Thanks, Taryn
>> ornae.com
>>
>> On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Mike Weaver wrote:
>>
>>> Ah,  I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our "help" - it 
>>> blew
>>> up in places even where we weren't meddling.
>>> My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated 
>>> free
>>> market economy and a pragmatic federal government.
>>> Think, oh, Finland.  I do think the Constitution allows for national
>>> health insurance: Quote:
>>>
>>> We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
>>> Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility
>>> , provide for 
>>> the
>>> common defence , 
>>> promote
>>> the general Welfare
>>> , and secure the
>>> Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
>>> , do ordain
>>>  and establish 
>>> this
>>> Constitution for the United States of America.
>>>
>>> Falls under general Welfare
>>>
>>> Andy Karpay wrote:
>>>
 ...
 It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
 death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras
 (Iran-Contra
 scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our "ally" of the day, and the
 proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.
 It is stated many times in this country that "communism has failed"
 therefore it is no good.  The truth is that much of communism's
 failure,
 in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's 
 intervention
 to
 ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we
 do
 have democratic communism).  The US's fear is that if the country is
 communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our 
 own
 gain, and the gain of the wealthy.  Remember, without poverty there 
 is
 no wealth.

 AK

 ...
>>


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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Folks,

Saturday, 27 August, 2005, 11:51:31, you wrote:
rlr> ardis streeter wrote:
>> All  this talk of politics as far as I am concerned is for the most
>> part  way  out  of  line,and  with a lot of misconceptions toward a
>> political adjenda.

rlr> Don't  go  there!  Didn't you read the "welcome" message when you
rlr> first subscribed?
rlr> robert luis rabello

Ja,  let's  not go there.  Let us go here instead.  Unless people have
all  the  information  they  are  able  they  will not be able to make
intelligent  or wise decisions.  We need to know that when we are told
something  that  the  source  is routinely as accurate and truthful as
possible and we need to know which sources are not so we can stay away
from those.

There  are  folks  out there, and I know some of them, who limit their
input  to sources which reflect only their particular mindset and they
reject  information  from other sources as "false" or "biased" whether
or  not that is indeed true.  They want the world to be a mirror image
of  their  cherished beliefs whether or not the beliefs are true, good
or wise.  That makes no sense.

I  believe  I have said this before but I believe that the information
we garner and through which we sift is biofuel for the mind.  Politics
may  be  and  often  is  heavily discussed but through this we gain an
understanding of others who may be vastly different from ourselves and
we  come  to  learn that although there are many differences we have a
common  thread  running  through  this  which is that we wish good for
ourselves  and  no  harm  to  others.  What gets in the way of this is
partisanship  whether  it is religious, political, economic, racial or
whatever  else.   Through these discussions we get closer to the truth
of things and become closer to being an organic whole.

If we are to become the best people we can be living in the best world
we  can  we  need  to listen to others and examine ourselves and if we
find ourselves lacking we need to get into line with what is right and
good  or  if we find others lacking we need to point it out to them so
that  they  have  the  same opportunity of getting into line with that
which is right and good.

To   limit   the  discourse  on  this  list  to the physical mechanics
of biofuel production is to limit ones understanding of what "biofuel"
is  and  what  it  can become.  If you are not prepared to expand your
limits  friend then you have chosen the wrong list.  This is where the
sorting  and  weeding is done.  This is the place where we become part
of  the  one, friends.  We point out the flaws where we find them that
we  may  understand more and correct the mistakes we find in ourselves
and elsewhere as we are able. Welcome to biofuels. ;o)

Happy Happy,

Gustl
--
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth

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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread robert luis rabello

ardis streeter wrote:
>   All this talk of politics as far
> as I am concerned is for the most part  way out of
> line,and with a lot of misconceptions toward a
> political adjenda.

Don't go there!  Didn't you read the "welcome" message when you first 
subscribed?


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread Michael Redler


Well done Keith.
 
So here we are again, stating the obvious, setting the record straight about a war which violates international laws (which the US helped write, then signed onto) related to justification for war, engagement, torture, detainment and the fabrication of the term "enemy combatant" which has effectively stripped people of the most basic human rights and left the accuser to decide guilt and length of detainment.   
 
It's frightening how the rhetoric says that the US is "the land of the free" and that it is a model for democracy which should be imposed on other countries considering the fact that there are 4000 federal laws on the books and some of them, along with many state laws dictate what is permissible (or not) in your personal life. For example, in at least two states, it's ILLEGAL for a male and female to cohabitate unless they are married. In my opinion, you can measure how close a country is to being a police state by the number of laws it has.  
 
I say all this without even getting started on the constitutional violations contained in the USA Patriot act (as many of us are already aware and have already discussed). Then there is my personal favorite, the sedition act of 1918:
 
"...shall willfully utter, print, write, or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States, or the Constitution of the United States..."
 
When asked about people in US history who I admire most, I will enthusiastically talk about those who have defended and sometimes died defending freedom within it's borders. Coincidentally, few of those people are politicians.
 
MikeKeith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My my. And I was just thinking you might be a man who'd do a bit of checking before he shot his foot off. Again. I do rather wonder what you mean when you say "right here in America" when actually where you are right now is right here on the global Internet, on a global discussion group with a global membership that includes many Muslims living in Muslim countries, who are probably more aware than you are of calls from your country - calls and deeds done - to kill them and their leaders. But that doesn't count, does it? It does here. If you want outrage over the coverage of the war in Iraq you'll find it aplenty, but you won't like it - it's outrage at the unquestioning, knee-jerk coverage your so-called "liberal" press (ROFL!!!) gave to the pack of blatant lies that led unfailingly to everything and everybody getting torn to pieces in
 Iraq (as most of us predicted at the time), including your precious military, and every single promise broken.>Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out>how to titrate WVO correctly.>At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..>Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?>Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?>Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others>are doing at peddling lies ?>Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who>are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the>Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is>given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?>And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God">judicatory committee on this list :What exactly do
 you mean by that?>Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to>daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe>that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?>>All I'm saying is that I for one feel compelled to be very conscious of>my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by>grace .>>Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from>renewable energy sources.It is not far away from renewable energy sources. I think you should read this carefully, since it looks as if you haven't already done so:http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-May/07.htmlOr:http://snipurl.com/gi45Best wishesKeith___
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Re: [Biofuel] Another use for glycerine

2005-08-27 Thread John Hayes

Nancy Canning wrote:
> Propylene glycol as it is used tons and tons of products including 
> industrial cleaners, shampoo's, toothpaste, creams,  etc.  It is very toxic, 
> the industry even has it in children's prescriptions. Wonder if this type of 
> propylene glycol has less poison/carcinogenic toxicity qualities vrs what is 
> out there right now?  Anybody have any info?

Nancy.

You are mistakenly confusing ethylene glycol with propylene glycol. Both 
can be used as antifreeze or deicers, but they have very different 
metabolic fates in the body. Thus, ethylene glycol is toxic while 
propylene glycol is food safe.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp96-c1.pdf

jh

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Re: [Biofuel] Another use for glycerine

2005-08-27 Thread Nancy Canning

Propylene glycol as it is used tons and tons of products including 
industrial cleaners, shampoo's, toothpaste, creams,  etc.  It is very toxic, 
the industry even has it in children's prescriptions. Wonder if this type of 
propylene glycol has less poison/carcinogenic toxicity qualities vrs what is 
out there right now?  Anybody have any info?




- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 6:48 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Another use for glycerine


> the subject of glycerine by-product, and what to do with it, seems to come 
> up
> quite frequently so i thought i'd pass on this bit of news.
>
> cheers,
>
> -chris
>
> =
>
> From: Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: biodiesel -> glycerin -> propylene glycol
>
> Renewable Alternatives, has developed a process for converting glycerin,
> a byproduct of the biodiesel production process, into propylene glycol.
> Propylene glycol can be used as nontoxic antifreeze for automobiles.
>
> Suppes said this technology can reduce the cost of biodiesel production
> by as much as $0.40 per gallon of biodiesel. The market for propylene
> glycol already is established, with a billion pounds produced a year.
>
> Read more at http://www.green-trust.org
>
> http://www.green-trust.org/2005/08/glycerin-biodiesel-byproduct-makes.html
>
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>
> 



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Re: [Biofuel] Apartment dwellers - was Re: (no subject)

2005-08-27 Thread Kirk McLoren

It was placed on the ballot and was decided by the people. As a result I don't have to get fuel on my hands. Yeah, sure, you can use gloves but it is a PITA and we are cheaper than Washington or California, our neighbors, and they make you pump your own. As for jobs-- why not? Corporations would replace us all with robots if they could. Ghandi understood the problem and organized the wearing of Indian homespun instead of machine made from Manchester. If your own future was a bit more uncertain in your mind you might have more empathy.
 
KirkBob Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello all,This subject I do know enough to weigh in on "depending on where you live"!!!Yes indeed, the US standard for plastic jugs is a color coding as John outlined. Most fuel stations are now self-service (with the exceptions of states like Oregon who don't allow self-service -- (in the name of protecting jobs) -- 
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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread ardis streeter

Greetings to all, I am an avid alternative fuel
advocate who is building a large home sized processor.
I do hope you will read this and maybe it will help
get us back on track!!All this talk of politics as far
as I am concerned is for the most part  way out of
line,and with a lot of misconceptions toward a
political adjenda.We All need to get focused on what
and where we are headed with the alternative energy
issues,and stop talking about all these   politics,
and put our time and money where our mouths are and DO
Something constructive !! Sincerly Spoken.Duff
Streeter

--- Sean Michael Dargan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hello Cliff, 
> 
> >I am a former officer in the USAF so perhaps I do
> have a fondness for 
> >the fine, exceedingly capable and patriotic  men
> and
> women serving >to protect and defend a country I
> personally feel is a  pretty good >place to live.
> Perhaps I am living under some delusions and if that
> is >the case then I'm sure someone will try to
> correct
> the errors of my >ways.
> 
> Just a quick point or two from another who is also
> looking for the path...   
> 
> The USA is, in fact, "a pretty good place to live,"
> but it is far from an innocent victim, as many who
> live here choose to believe.  The historical
> sortcomings of this county deserve much closer
> scrutiny if you hope to live an enlightened life as
> a
> modern US citizen.  
> 
> May I suggest a book?  Howard Zinn's masterpiece "A
> People's History of of the United States" should be
> required reading for all US citizens (even a
> naturalized citizen like me!); it will help shine an
> honest light on the historical behavior of our
> country, to the contrary of much that we read in our
> shool history books.  
> 
> After that, perhaps, a brief foray into Noam Chomsky
> can really put a point on the very recent history of
> US hegemony and covert interventionism (Chile, El
> Salvador, Nicaragua, etc.) particularly in the name
> of
> battling communism and terrorism... or as GHW Bush
> put
> it, "defending the non-negotiable American
> lifestyle."
>  
> 
> Thanks for listening to my two cents worth... Oh,
> and
> thank you for your service to our country.  May
> those
> exceedingly capable men and women of which you speak
> be brought home to focus that energy on more
> constructive pursuits!
> 
> Be well,
> 
> Sean Michael Dargan
> Madison, WI
> 
> P.S.  I, too, hope to hear more about titration
> before
> long!
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
>  
> 
> ___
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>
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> 
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> 
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> archives (50,000 messages):
>
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> 
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread Sean Michael Dargan

Hello Cliff, 

>I am a former officer in the USAF so perhaps I do
have a fondness for 
>the fine, exceedingly capable and patriotic  men and
women serving >to protect and defend a country I
personally feel is a  pretty good >place to live.
Perhaps I am living under some delusions and if that
is >the case then I'm sure someone will try to correct
the errors of my >ways.

Just a quick point or two from another who is also
looking for the path...   

The USA is, in fact, "a pretty good place to live,"
but it is far from an innocent victim, as many who
live here choose to believe.  The historical
sortcomings of this county deserve much closer
scrutiny if you hope to live an enlightened life as a
modern US citizen.  

May I suggest a book?  Howard Zinn's masterpiece "A
People's History of of the United States" should be
required reading for all US citizens (even a
naturalized citizen like me!); it will help shine an
honest light on the historical behavior of our
country, to the contrary of much that we read in our
shool history books.  

After that, perhaps, a brief foray into Noam Chomsky
can really put a point on the very recent history of
US hegemony and covert interventionism (Chile, El
Salvador, Nicaragua, etc.) particularly in the name of
battling communism and terrorism... or as GHW Bush put
it, "defending the non-negotiable American lifestyle."
 

Thanks for listening to my two cents worth... Oh, and
thank you for your service to our country.  May those
exceedingly capable men and women of which you speak
be brought home to focus that energy on more
constructive pursuits!

Be well,

Sean Michael Dargan
Madison, WI

P.S.  I, too, hope to hear more about titration before
long!





Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 

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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

Non-mythology about the news from Iraq:

Cindy Sheehan speaks to crowd at Camp Casey

"Casey was killed by insurgents. He wasn't killed by terrorists. He 
was killed by Shiite militia who wanted him out of the country."

Audio and transcript
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9980.htm

http://snipurl.com/h7y6


Today's instalment of headline news from Iraq, from Tom Feeley at 
ICH. It's just a slice, what it's a slice of is also just a slice, 
and if it's "good" it's probably BS. "The grim reality of Iraq rarely 
appears in the American press... " The real good news is that life 
manages to go on anyway somehow or other in the face of it all. I 
guess they just got good at it as things went from bad to worse for 
the last 25 years, and especially since the US invasion.

36 executed bodies found in Iraq:

Iraqi police on Thursday found the bodies of 36 men executed with a 
bullet to the head and dumped in a stream south of Baghdad, an 
interior ministry source said.
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=14378

http://snipurl.com/h7yd

===

25 dead as militias clash in gun battles:

AT LEAST 17 people were killed in Baghdad last night as gun battles 
erupted following a suicide car bomb attack on police.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1749830,00.html

http://snipurl.com/h7ye

===

8 Killed In Continuing Violence:

Near Baquba, gunmen opened fire on a bus carrying Shiite pilgrims who 
were heading home after visiting holy sites in Iran, killing four. In 
Oudiam, 40 miles north of Baquba, a roadside bomb killed four Iraqi 
engineers working for a cell phone company.
http://snipurl.com/h7yf

===

Six shot dead in Iraqi cafe:

Six Iraqi civilians have been killed and 15 others have been wounded, 
when gunmen burst into a popular cafe in a town north of Baghdad.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200508/s1446278.htm

http://snipurl.com/h7yg

===

3 Killed In Attack :

A Filipino contract worker has been killed in an ambush by suspected 
insurgents. Two Iraqi companions also died in an attack in the Iraqi 
city of Kirkuk
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/stories/s1446330.htm

http://snipurl.com/h7yh

===

Gunmen kill two bodyguards of Iraqi president :

  Gunmen shot dead two bodyguards of Iraqi President Jalal Talabani 
and wounded seven others in an attack north of Baghdad on Thursday, 
police said.
http://snipurl.com/h7yi

===

Mortar attacks kill two Iraqis:

Hospital officials say at least eight others have been injured in the 
strikes, including seven school children.
http://www.wane.com/Global/story.asp?S=3359521

http://snipurl.com/h7yk

===

Suspect "Insurgent" Killed:

One insurgent was killed and two injured in clashes with Iraqi 
soldiers in Baghdad's upscale district of Yarmouk
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9969.htm

http://snipurl.com/h7yl

===

Gunmen Kill One at Shi'ite mosque in Baquba
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L25004640.htm

http://snipurl.com/h7ym

===

Iraq Shi'ite militias fight as splits emerge:

At least eight people were killed and dozens wounded, health 
officials said, in street battles in Najaf involving pro- government 
fighters and supporters of Sadr, who has joined Sunni Arab leaders in 
denouncing the constitution as divisive.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9969.htm

http://snipurl.com/h7yl

===

Iraq cleric urges followers to end clashes:

A Shiite cleric called on his followers Thursday to end clashes with 
Shiite rivals so that stalled talks on a new constitution can 
proceed. Fighting continued for a second day after the cleric's 
office in Najaf was burned and four of his supporters were killed.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9972.htm

http://snipurl.com/h7yn

===

Clashes between Badr and Sadr :

Earlier this evening, Moqtada gave the Jaafari government an hour to 
explain, pull back or apologize for these attacks. He also called on 
his supporters in parliament, Fatah and others from the NICE list, to 
resign because Moqtada now considers the government illegal,
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9970.htm

http://snipurl.com/h7yp

===

Juan Cole : Bloody Shiite on Shiite Clashes in the South :

Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari condemned the violence in Najaf and 
called for an end to the politics of the gun. He said that the attack 
on the Sadr offices was "unacceptable" and deplored violence in the 
holy city of Najaf.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9973.htm

http://snipurl.com/h7yq

===

Shite Party Offices Attacked In Basara:

It is thought that the missile attack may be the work of supporters 
of the radical Shiite Imam Moqtada al-Sadr, in retaliation for 
previous attacks on al-Sadr's headquarters, which were blamed on 
members of the Badr organisation.
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Terrorism&loid=8.0.200617994&par=

http://snipurl.com/h7yr

===

Iraq Lawmakers Won't Meet on Constitution :

Parliament announced it had no pla

Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

2005-08-27 Thread Doug Foskey

Hakan,
 I was in Sweden in 1985 on a course with Ericcsson for 8 months. I found 
Sweden high taxed, but using the tax money to help the residents. One example 
would be that rent was subsidised.
 Probably Sweden has changed a lot from those days, but I know the political 
stability has helped the country grow, and the Swedish people with it.

regards Doug

On Saturday 27 August 2005 9:03, Hakan Falk wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> What do you know about this and it was not long ago that US also had
> an 80% top tax bracket. The Swedish tax laws are modelled after the
> US, but you are right in that Sweden have 80% were US have 60-70%.
> Then we come to deductions etc, and the picture is not that clear. US
> and Sweden is much closer than many belive.
>
> Tax laws are not that simple, but on social security for its
> citizens, Sweden is far better than US. According to general living
> standard it is statistically far better than US, first or second
> place in the world, were US is in the 6 to 8 bracket.
>
> Sweden with a total population (8 million), around half of Paris,
> London or New York, have an amazing number of successful
> international corporations.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 05:47 27/08/2005, you wrote:
> >So you think Sweden is a sucess? Try living there with a tax rate of 70%.
> >
> >Chuck
> >
> > >From: TarynToo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo
> > >Chavez
> > >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:42:00 -0400
> > >
> > >It's impossible to say "Communism would've collapsed even w/o our
> > >"help"", since every state that has attempted communism, with few
> > >exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some
> > >combination of economic warfare, bribery and  corruption, economic and
> > >military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy
> > >fascist states.
> > >
> > >The exceptions?
> > >China, which was so isolationist and so poor that it wasn't seen as any
> > >great threat, and whose own leaders were always so corrupt that it was
> > >only communist in name.
> > >Israel, whose experiments with small scale communes were instrumental
> > >in the technological, social, and economic success of the country.
> > >Lots of western and northern european countries have either dabbled  in
> > >communism (e.g. Italy), or socialism, (e.g. Sweden) with much success,
> > >and without the grotesque economic inequalities seen here in the USA.
> > >
> > >
> > >And of course our most repugnant attack on communism and socialism
> > >continues within our own borders, with the state sanctioned murders and
> > >beatings of union organizers, persecution and prosecution of accused
> > >communists, the unending pro-business, anti-communist propaganda,
> > >McCarthy's witch hunts. (now re-invented as the Patriot acts), and the
> > >almost complete sellout of media and government to commercial
> > >interests.
> > >
> > >I'm sure that many will take exception to everything I've said. Feel
> > >free to use facts to support your position.
> > >
> > >Oh... Mike, as I re-read this before posting, it seemed like I might be
> > >attacking you. Actually I agree with everything you said, except
> > >(maybe) that communism always fails.
> > >
> > >Thanks, Taryn
> > >ornae.com
> > >
> > >On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Mike Weaver wrote:
> > > > Ah,  I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our "help" - it
> > > > blew up in places even where we weren't meddling.
> > > > My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated
> > > > free market economy and a pragmatic federal government.
> > > > Think, oh, Finland.  I do think the Constitution allows for national
> > > > health insurance: Quote:
> > > >
> > > > We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
> > > > Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility
> > > > , provide for
> > > > the common defence ,
> > > > promote the general Welfare
> > > > , and secure the
> > > > Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
> > > > , do ordain
> > > >  and establish
> > > > this Constitution for the United States of America.
> > > >
> > > > Falls under general Welfare
> > > >
> > > > Andy Karpay wrote:
> > > >> ...
> > > >> It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
> > > >> death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras
> > > >> (Iran-Contra
> > > >> scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our "ally" of the day, and the
> > > >> proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.
> > > >> It is stated many times in this country that "commu

Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

2005-08-27 Thread Pannirselvam P.V

    Dear  Wdt


   As motor made in Brasil to run on
ethanol  has  engine design  with higher compression
than gasoline  car , you  can think of importing  the
same  as the technology envolves  not only the engine , but
also several other parts of the car.As I understand , may be Keith
knows much better , the  bioethanol fuel  programme made in
Australia is not yet made  suceeesful one.


   Regrading making etanol from  waste orange we 
can help you  as this can be made  using simple 
technology

sd
Pannirselvam
Brasil  On 8/26/05, Wireless Data Transfer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:








Hello there! 
This is the second time I post this question, since nobody responded to the 
first time, please advice!
I own a fairly 
big piece of land, in which I grow oranges, and a lot of themfall from the 
trees and rot on the ground.I have been told that making ethanol from those 
rotting oranges can be quitesimple.I can also have access to an almost 
unlimited supply of wood chips andsawdust from a nearby lumber yard, from 
which I read Methanol can beobtained, or those can be turned on 
fire to run the furnaces to make the Ethanol, right? The main use I 
will have for either the Ethanol or the Methanol is to fuela small 
fleet of cars that I use for traveling back and forth to where theoranges 
are.The 4 cars combined consume about 50~60 gallons of fuel permonth, each. 
I have found in various places on the Web that Brazil has manyvehicles that 
come from the factory ready to use alcohol as the fuel, butnobody seems to 
have many details of the systems.
I'm looking 
forward for any suggestions to learn how to produce my own fuel at reduced 
costs, in order to make my operation as self-sustainable as 
possible.
Thank you in advance!

___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
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http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/--  Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRNDepartamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ
Centro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQGrupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus UniversitárioCEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil
Residence :Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102   Capim  MacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal21032171557
Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557
Cellular  84  88145083
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Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

2005-08-27 Thread Hakan Falk


Chuck,

What do you know about this and it was not long ago that US also had 
an 80% top tax bracket. The Swedish tax laws are modelled after the 
US, but you are right in that Sweden have 80% were US have 60-70%. 
Then we come to deductions etc, and the picture is not that clear. US 
and Sweden is much closer than many belive.

Tax laws are not that simple, but on social security for its 
citizens, Sweden is far better than US. According to general living 
standard it is statistically far better than US, first or second 
place in the world, were US is in the 6 to 8 bracket.

Sweden with a total population (8 million), around half of Paris, 
London or New York, have an amazing number of successful 
international corporations.

Hakan


At 05:47 27/08/2005, you wrote:
>So you think Sweden is a sucess? Try living there with a tax rate of 70%.
>
>Chuck
>
>
> >From: TarynToo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo
> >Chavez
> >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:42:00 -0400
> >
> >It's impossible to say "Communism would've collapsed even w/o our
> >"help"", since every state that has attempted communism, with few
> >exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some
> >combination of economic warfare, bribery and  corruption, economic and
> >military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy
> >fascist states.
> >
> >The exceptions?
> >China, which was so isolationist and so poor that it wasn't seen as any
> >great threat, and whose own leaders were always so corrupt that it was
> >only communist in name.
> >Israel, whose experiments with small scale communes were instrumental
> >in the technological, social, and economic success of the country.
> >Lots of western and northern european countries have either dabbled  in
> >communism (e.g. Italy), or socialism, (e.g. Sweden) with much success,
> >and without the grotesque economic inequalities seen here in the USA.
> >
> >
> >And of course our most repugnant attack on communism and socialism
> >continues within our own borders, with the state sanctioned murders and
> >beatings of union organizers, persecution and prosecution of accused
> >communists, the unending pro-business, anti-communist propaganda,
> >McCarthy's witch hunts. (now re-invented as the Patriot acts), and the
> >almost complete sellout of media and government to commercial
> >interests.
> >
> >I'm sure that many will take exception to everything I've said. Feel
> >free to use facts to support your position.
> >
> >Oh... Mike, as I re-read this before posting, it seemed like I might be
> >attacking you. Actually I agree with everything you said, except
> >(maybe) that communism always fails.
> >
> >Thanks, Taryn
> >ornae.com
> >
> >On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Mike Weaver wrote:
> >
> > > Ah,  I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our "help" - it blew
> > > up in places even where we weren't meddling.
> > > My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated free
> > > market economy and a pragmatic federal government.
> > > Think, oh, Finland.  I do think the Constitution allows for national
> > > health insurance: Quote:
> > >
> > > We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
> > > Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility
> > > , provide for the
> > > common defence , promote
> > > the general Welfare
> > > , and secure the
> > > Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
> > > , do ordain
> > >  and establish this
> > > Constitution for the United States of America.
> > >
> > > Falls under general Welfare
> > >
> > > Andy Karpay wrote:
> > >
> > >> ...
> > >> It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
> > >> death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras
> > >> (Iran-Contra
> > >> scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our "ally" of the day, and the
> > >> proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.
> > >> It is stated many times in this country that "communism has failed"
> > >> therefore it is no good.  The truth is that much of communism's
> > >> failure,
> > >> in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's intervention
> > >> to
> > >> ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we
> > >> do
> > >> have democratic communism).  The US's fear is that if the country is
> > >> communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our own
> > >> gain, and the gain of the wealthy.  Remember, without poverty there is
> > >> no wealth.
> > >>
> > >> AK
> > >>
> > >> ...
> >
> >
> >___

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-27 Thread Hakan Falk

David,

What you are saying is that if I officially said that CIA should kill 
Bush, before he get US in irreversible trouble, then I am not doing 
anything illegal. I do not personally belive that this should be done 
or that anyone seriously should suggest this, but I wonder what 
happened if I said so.

I know that emails are screened and scrutinized, so this one might 
end up with CIA/FBI anyway and I sincerely hope that they dot not 
take it seriously or belive that I in any way would do a serious 
suggestion like the one Robertson did. Such suggestions are illegal 
and despicable, as the Robertson's one. I do think that when it comes 
to Chaves, the law will not be pursued and if it would be Bush he 
suggested, Robertson would now face serious interrogations.

The fact is that US has a law, which prohibits any targeted killing 
of foreign leaders. This law was introduced during the Carter 
administration, I belive. This was frequently discussed during the 
bombings of Baghdad. But if they would have killed Saddam by 
accident, it was ok, but to target him personally was not.

I remember when the Iranian Mullahs suggested the a true Muslim 
should kill a certain author, for insulting the Koran, and how all 
western leaders was upset by this kind of barbaric behavior and how 
it would not be allowed in the civilized western world. Robertson, a 
US religious leader, is doing exactly the same and now the same 
leaders are full of excuses for him.

I do think that if Robertson suggested that Bush should have sex with 
Madonna, then he would have been history by now. This even if it 
would have been legal. LOL

Hakan

At 04:33 27/08/2005, you wrote:
>Keith Addison wrote:
>
> >Hello David
> >
> >
>
>Hi Keith:)
>
> >>I expect that's covered under free speech.
> >>
> >>I'd personally rate Robertsons comments as up there with any number
> >>of people who advocate the death of Bush for crimes against humanity
> >>or somesuch.  If Bush were assasinated would these people really be
> >>responsible?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Maybe I didn't notice but I have not heard of anyone calling for the
> >death of Bush. Excepting some of the victims of course, but not
> >anybody in the US, which I think is what you're talking about.
> >
> >
>
>Surely you could imagine such a thing?  Perhaps around a coffee table?
>
>Offering your opinion that  should be assasinated either is or is not
>a crime; whether it's done on national TV or around the neighborhood
>watering hole is really irrelevent.
>
>
> >>>What if Chavez is murdered is murdered and CIA is behind it, will he
> >>>not be pursued for suggesting it?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I don't believe so.  The idea that the CIA would do something
> >>because this nut thought it was a good idea is laughable.
> >>
> >>Take a step back and listen to yourself.  Does anyone on this list
> >>thing anyone at the CIA is going to wake up and say "HEY!  Robertson
> >>thinks we should assasinate a foreign head of state!  Guess we'd
> >>better start laying plans"
> >>
> >>C'mon, that's just silly.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I'd be surprised if there weren't at least elements within the CIA
> >who're thinking the same way as Robertson. I think the administration
> >thinks the same way as Robertson. A lot of people think that. I think
> >Chavez thinks that too. Have a look at this:
> >
> >
>
>Either I'm losing my debating touch or you're taking my arguments a long
>ways away from where they were aimed.
>
>I responded to Hakan Falk who seemed to think that Robertson had already
>broken the law and wondered why he hasn't been already arrested.
>
>My central point is that expressing your opinion that the CIA ought to
>assasinate someone isn't breaking any laws.
>
>Period.  That's it.  That is the answer to Hakans question.
>
>I don't doubt for a second that there are people within the current
>administration and all the various arms of intelligence and defense who
>would like to assasinate Chavez because he's not sufficiently pro-American.
>
>I am not one of them.  I do not support Robertson.  I did not support
>the current administration in their drive to war in Iraq.  I do not
>support all the meddling we have done in the affairs of foreign states.
>
>But that does not make Robertsons statement illegal.
>
> >
> >>He's expressing a moronic, immoral opinion, not calling people to
> >>action.  I'm not trying to support Robertson, just trying to defend
> >>free speech.  You see if you want to be able to speak freely you
> >>have to let others do so too, even if you don't like what they say.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >There is no society that doesn't put restrictions on free speech, of
> >necessity, and it's a very difficult line to draw. Inciting to
> >violence is a case in point - it's obvious? Maybe, but it's a
> >restriction of free speech just the same, and there are many others,
> >along with a constantly shifting grey area.
> >
> >
>
>You'd best watch what you wish for, IMHO.  The US government over the
>last few administr

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

Hello Clif

>Keith Addison wrote:
>
> >My my. And I was just thinking you might be a man who'd do a bit of
> >checking before he shot his foot off. Again. I do rather wonder what
> >you mean when you say "right here in America" when actually where you
> >are right now is right here on the global Internet, on a global
> >discussion group with a global membership that includes many Muslims
> >living in Muslim countries, who are probably more aware than you are
> >of calls from your country - calls and deeds done - to kill them and
> >their leaders. But that doesn't count, does it? It does here. If you
> >want outrage over the coverage of the war in Iraq you'll find it
> >aplenty, but you won't like it - it's outrage at the unquestioning,
> >knee-jerk coverage your so-called "liberal" press (ROFL!!!) gave to
> >the pack of blatant lies that led unfailingly to everything and
> >everybody getting torn to pieces in Iraq (as most of us predicted at
> >the time), including your precious military, and every single promise
> >broken.
> >
> >
>Guilty as accused concerning not backing up my statements. I have
>remedied this in another post.

Well, you haven't given Fred any work, each and every one of your 
refs has been debunked many times before and it's all in the archives.

"In Iraq, we're not fighting for ourselves," said Bean, from his home 
base in Fort Campbell, Ky. "We're over there fighting so the Iraqis 
can have their own Fourth of July."

LOL! Yeah, it's not funny, but black humour's a survival trait these days.

>And guilty as accused as writing from a
>decidingly US perspective. I have traveled extensively including
>performing tsunami relief (as a civilian paying my own way) in Banda
>Aceh, Indonesia (90+ % Isalmic). Please understand that I have cried
>with, struggled with and even prayed with Muslims and Christians all
>over the world.  (I have carried out humanitarian efforts in Central and
>South America and Jordan also.) Unfortunately I was not as sensitive as
>I should have been to all the readers of this list.
>
>I am a former officer in the USAF

So you keep saying.

>so perhaps I do have a fondness for
>the fine, exceedingly capable and patriotic  men and women serving to
>protect and defend a country

Americans are inclined to be VERY careful about seeming to criticise 
that, most will pay it due obeisance. But most people here are not 
Americans and can be expected to treat it as the false sacred cow 
that it is. Again, please see the archives, we've had Purple 
Heart-winning US vets arguing with each here before this. So you 
might as well stop saying it, it doesn't secure you any high ground.

>I personally feel is a  pretty good place
>to live.
>
>Perhaps I am living under some delusions and if that is the
>case then I'm sure someone will try to correct the errors of my ways.
>
>Thanks for the input. I will give it some thought.
>
>Just a guy sorting things out,

I wonder. I think you're trolling. You slip in and lay some 
flame-bait, it duly raises noise and distraction, then you're all 
penitent about it, and then you do it again, twice so far. I'm not 
convinced by your penitence this time, and there won't be a third 
time.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner


>Clif
>
> >
> >
> >>Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out
> >>how to titrate WVO correctly.
> >>At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
> >>Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
> >>Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
> >>Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others
> >>are doing at peddling lies ?
> >>Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who
> >>are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the
> >>Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is
> >>given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
> >>And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God"
> >>judicatory committee on this list :
> >>
> >>
> >
> >What exactly do you mean by that?
> >
> >
> >
> >>Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to
> >>daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe
> >>that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?
> >>
> >>All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of
> >>my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by
> >>grace .
> >>
> >>Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
> >>renewable energy sources.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >It is not far away from renewable energy sources. I think you should
> >read this carefully, since it looks as if you haven't already done so:
> >
> >http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200
> >5-May/07.html
> >Or:
> >http://snipurl.com/gi45
> >
> >Best wish

Re: [Biofuel] Another use for glycerine

Hello Chris

>the subject of glycerine by-product, and what to do with it, seems to come up
>quite frequently so i thought i'd pass on this bit of news.
>
>cheers,
>
>-chris

Thanks, but we had it before:

http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-August/003069.html
[Biofuel] Development Yields Antifreeze from Biodiesel

Note it comes from http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/, not green-trust.org.

Best wishes

Keith




>=
>
>From: Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: biodiesel -> glycerin -> propylene glycol
>
>Renewable Alternatives, has developed a process for converting glycerin,
>a byproduct of the biodiesel production process, into propylene glycol.
>Propylene glycol can be used as nontoxic antifreeze for automobiles.
>
>Suppes said this technology can reduce the cost of biodiesel production
>by as much as $0.40 per gallon of biodiesel. The market for propylene
>glycol already is established, with a billion pounds produced a year.
>
>Read more at http://www.green-trust.org
>
>http://www.green-trust.org/2005/08/glycerin-biodiesel-byproduct-makes.html


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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers