Re: [Biofuel] Process Biofuel from CPO?
Greetings Salaf, welcome I am new comer in this mailing list, I realy want to now How to produce biofuel from CPO(crude palm oil) because in my are there are huge amount of palm. If any body now about the process in home industry scale please let me know. Thank you very much. The problem with CPO is that it can have very high Free Fatty Acid levels, which makes it difficult to process into biodiesel, and unsuitable for use as straight vegetable oil fuel unless it's deacidified and degummed first - in other words, it has to be refined either way. Refined palm oil is a similar price to diesel fuel. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_SVO-Allen.html Straighter-than-straight vegetable oils as diesel fuels There's a lot of interesting information in the list archives on processing of CPO into biodiesel. See: http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?method=andformat=shortc onfig=biofuel_sustainablelists_orgrestrict=exclude=words=CPO Or: http://snipurl.com/i3dq Search results for 'CPO' Follow threads about High FFA oils and hi ffa feed stocks. (The whole thread is linked at the bottom of the message pages in the archives.) But unless you're an experienced biodiesel maker it's doubtful that you'll be able to process CPO into biodiesel, it's not for novices. Start at the beginning: Where do I start? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start Keep going. If you have questions or problems the list will help you. In a few months you should be ready to try CPO. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cheap and easy filtering of WVO
Umm, don't quite understand. Push air in to get air out? Or are you referring more to an accordian or bladder style container, compressed then forcibly expanded to create a vacuum? Sorry, it is late and I just accidentally closed some scripting that I'd been working on for several hours w/o saving it. The idea is that pushing air past the under side of the filter but above the oil is will keep it from vapor locking. That's the best I can explain for now. And a vacuum pump might be slightly less efficient than a pressure pump, but would require less setup than the pressure pump would to achieve the same effect. I'd think that the vacuum system would actually be safer, since with a pressurized air system pushing it through the filter you might run the risk of suspending oxygen and other atmospheric gasses in the oil; it might not be bad for the reaction, but it is a set of unknown variables you don't need. ;p I'm talking like...3lbs over 1atm. Notevenbicycle pressures. Helping gravity. You get the idea. Also, I really don't suspect that oxygen would be NEARLY as dangerous to the solution as wateror even humid air. Although high pressure injection is a neat idea, hadn't thought of that. On a purely coincidental side benefit note, pulling the oil through via vacuum might just pull a small portion of the water out, too, through exposure to under-vapor pressure air as it falls and collects. Why? I'd think that forcing the product through a filter under vacuum would be more likely to 1) force-clog the filter or 2) allow some particulate through just because you're sucking it through the filter. I'd *think* unless it was fancy filter, the vacuum would cause the filter to bow, which would in turn open the meshcompromizing filtration quality. I was just thinking slightly positive pressure on top (could also bow the filter, but we're talking a larger surface area) could likely be done w/ a small aquarium filter and a gasket. A vacuum uses a whole lot more electricity. I think Keith hit the nail on the head about the importance of allowing the product to settle and using elevated drains though. I would try to explain better, but my vision is getting blurry. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cheap and easy filtering of WVO
Hi Hal Thank for showing the very nice good picture and your very good work. Some filter aids use on the cloth and some height like cofee filter can improve the filteration quality. In the case of the crude oils , the impurity of small colloidal particles act as the filterationmaking possibleto get the the very clear oil . Thanking you sd Pannirselvam Brasil On 9/29/05, hal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thought you folks might enjoy a cheap filtering technique we've been using forseveral months. http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-halspersonalpages___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRNDepartamento de Engenharia Química - DEQCentro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus UniversitárioCEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - BrasilResidence :AvOdilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 CapimMacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal21032171557Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular8488145083 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] disolving lye
Hi all Most of the recipe's on JtFdescribe hours to dissolved the lye in methanol.Mine usually takes about 20 minute to half an hour. I use translucent bottles and check for settled lye. Is there something I am missing?When I mix it I poor the Lye into the methanol and swirl it for a minute or two , leave it for ten minutes or so,swirl some more until its all gone.The BD I make has clean seperation and is easy to wash. The same goes for either a 1L or30 L batch. Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Red Devil Lye
Would you say that Red Devil Lye is or was the best source of Potassium hydroxide? As It is way too early in the morning here in New Mexico and I have difficulties remembering which chemicals are which I looked up potassium hydroxide again. Maybe it will stick this time. The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05. potassium hydroxide chemical compound with formula KOH. Pure potassium hydroxide forms white, deliquescent crystals. For commercial and laboratory use it is usually in the form of white pellets. A strong base, it dissolves readily in water, giving off much heat and forming a strongly alkaline, caustic solution (see acids and bases). It is commonly called caustic potash. It closely resembles sodium hydroxide in its chemical properties and has similar uses, e.g., in making soap, in bleaching, and in manufacturing chemicals, but is less widely used because of its higher cost. It is prepared chiefly by electrolysis of potassium chloride; commercial grades of it sometimes contain the chloride as well as other impurities. Also, my son and his best friend work at the local university, I asked them what type of equipment they can get their hands on to test the purity of household chemicals. It is my understanding that methanol can also be found in general goods stores if one knows what to look for. BBQ lighter fluid has no ingredients listing on the side like it should, but I am sure I have read here that it is based on methanol, true or no? I asked the guys to look for a gas chromagraph at school. Can some of the laboratory types verify this would be a good piece of equipment for the younger generation to learn how to use? I have the worst memory for new information so I have digested every message in this group as well as a few other sources in an attempt to memorise terms and processes. Unfortunately, as the old song or saying goes, I got a job, but it don't pay, thus my means and enthusiasm are constantly struggling for dominance. In other words I desperately need to find cheap or free equipment and chemicals 'and' I need to have alternate sources for as much of the needed stuff so I can better figure this all out while I am in the thinking about it stages of making my own biodiesel. Please any help which you lab techies can give us about analysing chemicals will be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Brian Rodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] What Is Truth?
Thanks Hoagy! I can just hear his voice. Jesse From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:01:35 -0500 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] What Is Truth? What Is Truth? -- Johnny Cash The old man turned off the radio, said: Where did all of the old songs go? Kids sure play funny music these days. They play it in the strangest ways. Said: It looks to me like they've all gone wild. It was peaceful back when I was a child. Well, man could it be that the girls and boys, Are trying to be heard above your noise? And the lonely voice of youth cries: What is truth? [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Animal Intelligence -- Was: New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Crows and ravens are particularly smart birds, capable of imitative (deceptive) calls, and teamwork in hunting. I have seen three crows herd a pheasant toward a fourth crow who killed it, and then all four ate. But humour, that's the least expected part of the animal world: horses tell jokes! Some of them are hilarious! Geese play and enjoy life! As you say Robert: it's just not on a linguistic level. This is the part that makes killing them really weird. I'm not vegan but I sure see their point of view. Jesse [snip] Animals aren't dumb. Their intelligence isn't language based, like ours is, so it's hard for us to understand them. They comprehend some of our words and are highly skilled at interpreting our body language, but when my cat Liberty struts up and meows at me, I sometimes wonder if he's thinking: You STUPID human, can't you figure out what I want? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cheap and easy filtering of WVO
Hmmm, just when I start to think I know something Let me explain where I am at with this and it may save me endless hours and $. I reprocessed some bio based on JtF reprocess instructions, and had 0 Glycerin drop out. Possibly the Bio is fine, but it was darker than that I made from Virgin. I read where dark means Glycerin thus figured this was the case. When I say dark I mean it is several shades more yellow but still very clear. I thought that pre filtering my oil would fix this??? ( this stuff also still smells bad like a rendering plant) The wash water is clear, there is a clean line between the water and the bio and it separates faster than virgin. You mentioned that, All unfiltered solids drop out into the glycerin by-product layer. So mabey I just have not had enough experience to know what color range to expect? I'm Stumped, Thanks again, Jim Keith Addison wrote: YES! Thank you for the great idea! I will ask my wife to help me make one soon. I have been pondering long and hard on this part of the process. Why bother to filter it at all? If you're running SVO, sure, but for making biodiesel there's no need. I seldom see flotsam in WVO, if so just scoop it off the top, otherwise it's all jetsam, it sinks (it sinks even better if you heat the oil). So let it sink then take/pour the WVO from the top of whatever you get it in, use a 1mm wire mesh screen to be sure. No need for a filter. Collect the bottoms separately, settle, when there's enough pour through a 1mm wire mesh screen, use. If you use a pre-heating tank put a standpipe in it so any remaining crud collects at the bottom, you can clean it out periodically (compost it). Either way, heat, react, settle. Solid particles that get this far are small and won't affect the processing (liquids or dissolved solids might do that but they can't be removed by filtering anyway). All unfiltered solids drop out into the glycerine by-product layer. Separate the biodiesel, wash, dry. As Jan said recently, The biodiesel should be ready for instant consumption if it´s clear and bright and without sediments. If it's properly made it will be without sediments. Quite a lot of people don't filter the biodiesel either before using it (your diesel has at least two filters anyway). Make it well, use standpipes wherever you can, don't skimp on settling times, and you'll be fine. Best wishes Keith Thanks for sharing, Jim hal wrote: Thought you folks might enjoy a cheap filtering technique we've been using for several months. http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-halspersonalpages ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US army plans to bulk-buy anthrax
Kieth, Yes, the B-2 program was accomplished on the up and up, but the F-117 was designed and built almost entirely under a cloak of secrecy. In fact, much of the individual pieces of the F-117 design were compartmentalized so much that the contractors and suppliers working on the aircraft did not even know what they were working on. There is a story at my company of a time in the mid-80's when we received a specification for a fuel gauging system for a nameless aircraft. We were told that when the system was ready for shipment, we should call a telephone number and leave the package on our loading night that evening. The next morning the package was gone. We never knew who picked it up or where it went. A few weeks later a check would arrive in the mail from some third party company. The money was good, so we kept delivering this way for several years. It was only after the F-117 was made public that we knew what the fuel system was for. Thus it is hard to leak information on something that you don't anything about. Earl Kinsley [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe -- Check out my latest blogs at http://KinsleyForPrez08.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US army plans to bulk-buy anthrax Remember the F-117 and B2 were build by 10's of thousands of people, costing 10's of billions, and not one significant leak. Sorry, what's this got to do with it? What does it mean anyway, not one significant leak? What didn't leak? The whole world knew about the F-117 and B2 and what they were intended for. And what they cost - at one time it was slang in the financial world, 1 Stealth = $1 billion. That was when they were still cheap. (They're not that good anyway, according to the GAO, serious shortcomings.) Anyway, it's thought by some that the high cost of the B2, the most expensive plane ever at $2.2 bn, was a cover for, uh, black ops. Is that what didn't get leaked by 10's of thousands of people? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Block heater for an 82 Mercedes
There is no garage for my diesel car. I want to run it on BD100 year round here in Pine Plains, NY, USA where winters get cold.Part of the solutionis installing a block heater. Where would a block heater be installed in an 82 Mercedes 300DS ? I've been told that there should be a "freeze-out" plug in the block and that this is where it can be installed. I know that the easiest place to have the heater installed is ata service station or a Mercedes dealer, but I'd like to do this myself. Three months ago I didn't know a bushing from a pipe nipple, a clearwaterpump from an aquarium pump. With the help of list members and the solid information at JtF, I've built a processor and am making 75 L batches of quality BD. Half goes in the car, half in the heating oil tank. I'm getting a lesson today on furnaces: nozzles, general maintenance, etc. Would like to burn bioheating oil instead of BD. The point here is that one step in the right direction provides a place from which the next step is possible and a different view which may well makeanotherstep in the same direction enticing. I have been focused on BD, but have found that there certainly is a lot more here than biodiesel info. I thank all for their help especially those who are so patient with us slow learners. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] disolving lye
I've been wondering about the problems one might encounter trying to dissolve the lye when making bioheating oil. If I have it right, one would dissolve the same amount of lye as if makingbiodiesel, but using only half the methanol. Well worth the effort if you can produce low cost heating fuel w/o having to wash it. Tom - Original Message - From: Ian Theresa Sims To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 3:24 AM Subject: [Biofuel] disolving lye Hi all Most of the recipe's on JtFdescribe hours to dissolved the lye in methanol.Mine usually takes about 20 minute to half an hour. I use translucent bottles and check for settled lye. Is there something I am missing?When I mix it I poor the Lye into the methanol and swirl it for a minute or two , leave it for ten minutes or so,swirl some more until its all gone.The BD I make has clean seperation and is easy to wash. The same goes for either a 1L or30 L batch. Cheers Ian ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] disolving lye
Ian, Not knowing your titration results, or if you are using WVO or virgin oil, I will throw in my 1.5 cents. I think the difficulty in dissolving lye in methanol is a matter of the amount of lye needed to be dissolved/liter of methanol. Dissolving 3.5g/L for virgin oil is easy enough. However, each additional gram of lye needed to neutralize the FFA's in WVO seems to double the time needed to dissolve it. Another thing to consider is the methodused to dissolve the lye in the methanol. I use a 5 gallon carboy (19L). The 6L of methanol needed for a 30L batch leaves plenty of room for agitating the solution.If such a system is used for larger (50L) batches, the container is more than half full andIcan onlyswirl the mix gently. Maybe you are using very high quality oil or have a better method for dissolving your lye. Whatever you are doing,the resultssound good to me. Tom - Original Message - From: Ian Theresa Sims To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 3:24 AM Subject: [Biofuel] disolving lye Hi all Most of the recipe's on JtFdescribe hours to dissolved the lye in methanol.Mine usually takes about 20 minute to half an hour. I use translucent bottles and check for settled lye. Is there something I am missing?When I mix it I poor the Lye into the methanol and swirl it for a minute or two , leave it for ten minutes or so,swirl some more until its all gone.The BD I make has clean seperation and is easy to wash. The same goes for either a 1L or30 L batch. Cheers Ian ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Red Devil Lye
Greetings, This has been discussed at length on the soap making lists, and yes, it is true. There is still some stock out, but they discontinued making the Lye in May. Bright Blessings, Kim At 01:52 PM 10/1/2005, you wrote: I asked my local True Value Hardware guy about Red Devil Lye being discontinued. He said he's heard it before and that he doesn't think it's true. I did buy his last two bottles, tho' ;-) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] OFM Tube
hi I just finished designing and buildinga batch processor based onthejourney to forever 90 ltr processor I now want to design an ofm flow tube. Is there any other sites other than cambridge That would be usefull. John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] In-tank fuel screen
Hello to All, I'm trying to remove the filter from inside the fuel tank of a 1982 Mercedes 300DS. Told that there might be an access panel to the fuel tank,we have taken out the back seats andthe covering in the trunk to expose the fuel tank from the top and 2 sides. Having no success, we tried to unbolt and pull out the tank, but were thwarted there as well; it wouldn't budge. Fortunately it got dark before we (my father-in-law is my accomplice) could cause any irreparable damage. Can anyone give us a better plan before we disassemble the whole vehicle? Side note: The previous owners maintained the car very well and used a fuel additive that claims to remove water from the system and keep the fuel system clean. After 800 miles of BD100 I checked the prefilter to findjust 2 tiny black specks visible. Is it possible that I can forgo the ordeal of removing what my accompliss refers to as "the sock" from the tank? My wife loves driving the car and having a fillup station at our house.I dread the thought of getting a call on a cold, rainy night that "the car stopped". I'm ready to go in and find that darn sock if I must. Help appreciated Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Keith Addison wrote: Hello Dermot snip Many very extensive studies have been done on various vegetarian groups such as Seven Day Adventists and some vegetarians claim that as these people are healthier than average that it must be due to their vegetarian diet. I don't subscribe to this view because these people don't smoke or drink either. What I do conclude from this however is that a vegetarian diet doesn't do these people any harm. This is the important point to realise. One of them, and there are exceptions. I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Of course one can cite studies to justify any case in the area of diet and health. We are still in the dark ages as far as the science of nutrition and diet is concerned. You can have two scientists who have received the same training who when presented with the same evidence will come to diametrically opposite conclusions. A bit like the dark art of economics! It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. Some people really hate it (and hate me) when I say these things, but there is no sustainable way of raising plants without animals. There is no traditional farming system that doesn't used animals, and never has been. It just doesn't work - soil fertility sooner or later fails, and then everything else fails too. Likewise in nature mixed farming is the rule, plants are always found with animals. God can't do it, and neither can we. Sustainable farms are mixed, integrated farms. Can't see any reason to hate somebody who expresses an opposing view. Everybody should be open to having their views challenged. Scepticism is something we can't have enough of! I'm glad you raised this objection to vegetarianism because it is the first time I have heard this particular view. I don't know a lot about the detail of sustainable agriculture but I am aware of at least one farm here in Ireland that is run on a stockless system that the owners claim is sustainable. Similarly there is a organisation in the UK called the Vegan Organic Trust that certifies farms as being vegan and sustainable. In America there is a guy called Will Bonsall who has run the Khadighar Farm near Farmington, Maine for the past 25 years, using veganic methods, i.e. no animal inputs, for the past 20 years. Just suppose for the sake of argument that it is possible to have sustainable agriculture without any animal input and further suppose that it is possible to lead a healthy life on a vegetarian diet, would you then consider it wrong to eat non-human animals? Mixed farming does NOT mean miles of monocrop grains on one side of the fence and an intensive pig/chicken/turkey/beef farm (factory) on the other, with its shit-lagoon. Farming with animals means one of two things: killing the inevitable excess or competing with them as they eat you out of house and home. Killing them and not eating them would not be sane, and criminally wasteful. I don't actually have a problem with animals being used in agriculture. If they get reasonable care they can have a pretty decent existence and they can contribute to soil fertility. It's a win-win situation for everybody. I do have a problem with cutting short a sentient creature's life if it is unnecessary. I can't see how there needs to be an excess of animals that have to be killed if we have the technology to limit their breeding. If for some reason culling is required, I don't think that there would not be any ethical dilemma in eating their flesh. Widespread vegetarianism would condemn more animals than mixed farming ever could, and could easily condemn us all to the consequences (the further consequences) of unbalanced farming systems. I would turn this argument on its head by saying that widespread meat eating would condemn us all to the consequences of unbalanced farming systems. Most people on this planet are vegetarian most of the time. If everybody was to eat a meat diet similar to the meat eating patterns in the West then everybody would starve. I know this is not what you advocate but it's worth bearing in mind all the same. Even your healthy vegetables will not be very good for you if they're not properly grown in fertile soils, which means that a proportion of the wastes recycled back to the soil goes through the gut of animals en route. Don't forget recycling food through our own guts. Human waste, with proper treatment should be used to fertilise soils instead of polluting the planet as at present. This would further cut down the need (if there is any) for animal manure. I think they are doing that very successfully in Shanghai at the moment. Food is fabricated soil fertility.
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Andres Yver wrote: Hi Dermot, On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: snip It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said (paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or clipping baby greens. Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? Hi Andre, Is your trouble with ethics confined to the ethical treatment of animals? Presumably you want to be treated ethically by others.Why then deny that right to another sentient creature just because they don't happen to belong to your species? I also believe that you don't mean what you say. You do, for instance, believe it is unethical to inflict unneccary pain on any being that is capable of experiencing it. SENTIENCE: Having the power of self perception, that feels or is capable of feeling.(Oxford English Dictionary) What I mean by sentient creatures is creatures that are self aware, they can relate to others, act independently, experience joy or pain, are capable of abstract thought, are capable of communication. Not all animals have the same degree of sentiency and therefore not all animals should be treated the same. But where they have the same degree of sentiency, for instance in the ability to feel pain, they should be treated the same. Plants do not exhibit any of the above features of sentiency and there is no serious research suggesting that they do. All claims to the contrary have been completely discredited. (Natural History, March 1974 cited in Animal Liberation by Peter Singer) So where do you draw the line? Different people draw the line in different places. I draw the line at having a central nervous system and possessing most of attributes of sentiency described above. Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? They have much the same rights. But if a rat interferes with my right to live by trying to give me bubonic plague I kill it as mercifully as possible. If the rat doesn't interfere with my rights I leave him alone. If a rabbit threathens my health by eating all my crops I kill him as well. But only if completely necessary and as humanely as possible. How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What about their rights? Animals eat other animals because they have to to survive. I maintain that humans do not need to. You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you could find to eat was an animal? I would eat the animals. If I was hungry enough I would also eat human animals no problem. But I would not do these things unless it were completely necessary, which thankfully it isn't. Is hunger what you would consider a good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? They have more rights than a bull calf because they possess more sentiency (most of the time anyway). They are capable of abstract thought , they can plan for the future, they can experience more joy and live a much fuller life than a bull calf. I hope what I have said above will answer the points you have raised here. You are attributing views to me here which I do not in fact hold. Of course a healthy human life is more important than the life of a cockroach. There is no inconsistency here. The more sentient the creature the more rights accruing to it. But where beings have the same degree of sentiency they should be treated equally. The decision of whose life is more valuable should not be based on membership of a particular species. So a severely brain damaged person incapable of any feeling or awareness would not have the same right to life as a higher animal such as a healthy chimpanzee. Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex than what you present. That is certainly an understatement. These are extremely complex issues and I would not attempt to address them all in
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Keith Addison wrote: Hi Andres. Dermot Hi Dermot, On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: snip It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said (paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. I think so too. Plants do some downright weird things, you can explain it all away easily enough perhaps, but you're missing something if you do. I don't have any problems with people being vegetarians or whatever they want to be, but in my view what you call the holier than thou attitude that sometimes goes with it is baseless. The trouble is when people do it for their own emotional reasons, which is fair enough, but they try to pretend it's for logical reasons, and get very annoyed when the logic doesn't hold up. People shouldn't make important decisions based on emotions, I agree. The funny thing is when I make the case for vegetarianism based on logic with my meat eating friends they accuse me of being relentlessly logical when they begin to lose the argument. You just can't win. :-) My previous partner Christine Thery (who did many of the illustrations at the JtF website) once got us into a furious row with a couple of veggies, just as the logic was failing, by saying: In other words you eat vegetables because they don't scream and try to run away when you kill them. LOL! She had a point. I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or clipping baby greens. Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What about their rights? Inside a compost pile seems to me like a reasonable sort of place to end up when it's your turn to get eaten. You'll become billions of creatures, eventually just merging into the spirit of the local soil community. You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex than what you present. I very much agree. (As I may have said...) My friend Prema is a Tibetan nun, based at Daramsala in India with the Dalai Lama. I've quoted her before here: It's not often a person gets the chance to live a human life, it's quite rare, one shouldn't waste such an opportunity. Quite! She told me the Northern Buddhists are vegetarians but they don't make rigid rules about it. They try to live without killing other creatures, though they know it's impossible. She was very interested to hear that plants eat other creatures, they send out root hairs that capture and devour soil micro-organisms, even nematodes sometimes. Plants eat meat. It's possible (quite easy!) to live in a relationship of positive symbiosis with the rest of the creatures you're sharing your slice of the biosphere with, in full respect for the rights of everything else that's alive, while doing your share of necessary killing too. You can always be adding more than you're substracting. Best wishes Keith andres (who, having been vegetarian, has also felt holier than thou) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
[Biofuel] BD color WVO vs Virgin Oil
A previous post expressed concerns over the darker color of BD from WVO vs. Virgin Oil. "I reprocessed some bio based on JtF reprocess instructions, and had 0 Glycerin drop out. Possibly the Bio is fine, but it was darker than that I made from Virgin." It sounds like good BD. I have kept samples of BD from my first test batches. They are in clear glass bottles. The ones from Virgin Oil are yellow. The ones from WVO are various shades of amber; clearly darker than BD from virgin oil. I think this is to be expected. "this stuff also still smells bad" As for smell, the occassional wiff I get of my BD is neither offensive nor is it as appealing as the odor it produces coming from my exhaust. I'd be interested in knowing if bad smelling BD produces bad food smells when burned. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cheap and easy filtering of WVO
On 10/2/05, Evergreen Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, it is late and I just accidentally closed some scripting that I'd been working on for several hours w/o saving it. The idea is that pushing air past the under side of the filter but above the oil is will keep it from vapor locking. That's the best I can explain for now. Quite alright, I've been there myself before. Just not with scripting. :p Sounds almost like we have similiar ideas, at least once you get past my instinctive ramping up into something mechanical. Like I said, I got the idea from a filter in the lab that uses running water to generate the vacuum; maybe the moving air could have the same effect? And a vacuum pump might be slightly less efficient than a pressure pump, but would require less setup than the pressure pump would to achieve the same effect. I'd think that the vacuum system would actually be safer, since with a pressurized air system pushing it through the filter you might run the risk of suspending oxygen and other atmospheric gasses in the oil; it might not be bad for the reaction, but it is a set of unknown variables you don't need. ;p I'm talking like...3lbs over 1atm. Notevenbicycle pressures. Helping gravity. You get the idea. Also, I really don't suspect that oxygen would be NEARLY as dangerous to the solution as wateror even humid air. Although high pressure injection is a neat idea, hadn't thought of that. It was in a paper that I was reading on different esters. It basically separated them into Drying and non-Drying esters, and said that some vegetable-derived esters could easily become drying if there is too much oxygen suspended in them. So, a fuel that dries in your lines and pump would be, I'd think, a bad thing; I'm paranoid though, it probably wouldn't hurt that much. Better safe than sorry? On a purely coincidental side benefit note, pulling the oil through via vacuum might just pull a small portion of the water out, too, through exposure to under-vapor pressure air as it falls and collects. Why? I'd think that forcing the product through a filter under vacuum would be more likely to 1) force-clog the filter or 2) allow some particulate through just because you're sucking it through the filter. I'd *think* unless it was fancy filter, the vacuum would cause the filter to bow, which would in turn open the meshcompromizing filtration quality. I was just thinking slightly positive pressure on top (could also bow the filter, but we're talking a larger surface area) could likely be done w/ a small aquarium filter and a gasket. A vacuum uses a whole lot more electricity. It only uses a whole lot more electricity if you are shooting for a real vacuum. Just making a small/moderate pressure difference is like running an air compressor; I've actually seen some vacuum pumps that ran more efficiently than air compressors, just because they weren't trying to make such a big pressure difference through forcible compression. Just increase the ambient air pressure an almost imperceptible amount by removing a small volume of air. If you want to be really cheap, hook it up to a pedal-powered reciprocating piston pump. Get your workout and filter your oil all at once. ^.~ Might look into building one of those myself. As for why it would possibly remove a bit of water, I'm thinking it probably would (especially with warmed oil?) simply because with the decreased air pressure there is also going to be a decrease in humidity; I guess similar to vacuum recovery of methanol described in one of the processor pages? Lower the vapor pressure artificially, and more will evaporate? Might get some of that free standing water out of the oil, especially if you added some energy to the system in the form of mild heating. You might possibly be able to prevent filter clogging by having a multiple stage filter, and only have your last layer exposed to the vacuum. By that point all the large chunks are removed, and you're just getting the fine stuff. Might want to clean the filter more often in this instance, though, to prevent buildup and tears. Just thoughts, anyway. I think Keith hit the nail on the head about the importance of allowing the product to settle and using elevated drains though. I would try to explain better, but my vision is getting blurry. I like gravity. Gravity is free. ^.^ -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] disolving lye
Hello Tom I've been wondering about the problems one might encounter trying to dissolve the lye when making bioheating oil. If I have it right, one would dissolve the same amount of lye as if making biodiesel, but using only half the methanol. One-quarter the methanol. The example given uses 3 litres of methanol for 60 litres of oil, that's 5% methanol, with the titration amount of lye (titration plus the basic 3.5 g/l for virgin oil). It gets hot, of course, but not enough to frighten. We use KOH, and quite nice oil, no problem even though the proportion of KOH to methanol is high. You also use a much higher proportion of lye to methanol in the acid-base process than in the single-stage base process, two-thirds higher, also no problem. Well worth the effort if you can produce low cost heating fuel w/o having to wash it. ... unless you have rubber parts in your furnace, then you might have to wash it, though there can't be much free methanol in it, if any. I'm not sure how easy it is to wash it, I've never tried. Best wishes Keith Tom - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Ian Theresa Sims To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 3:24 AM Subject: [Biofuel] disolving lye Hi all Most of the recipe's on JtF describe hours to dissolved the lye in methanol. Mine usually takes about 20 minute to half an hour. I use translucent bottles and check for settled lye. Is there something I am missing? When I mix it I poor the Lye into the methanol and swirl it for a minute or two , leave it for ten minutes or so, swirl some more until its all gone. The BD I make has clean seperation and is easy to wash. The same goes for either a 1L or 30 L batch. Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello again Dermot Keith Addison wrote: Hi Andres. Dermot Hi Dermot, On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: snip It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said (paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. I think so too. Plants do some downright weird things, you can explain it all away easily enough perhaps, but you're missing something if you do. I don't have any problems with people being vegetarians or whatever they want to be, but in my view what you call the holier than thou attitude that sometimes goes with it is baseless. The trouble is when people do it for their own emotional reasons, which is fair enough, but they try to pretend it's for logical reasons, and get very annoyed when the logic doesn't hold up. People shouldn't make important decisions based on emotions, I agree. But that's not what I said, I said it's fair enough, it's their prerogative, just don't pretend it's anything else. If you say you don't like eating meat, or if you don't agree with killing animals so you don't eat meat, that's fine with me. But if you start promoting something or insisting that others follow your way then you should have a solid case for it, not just an emotional one. The funny thing is when I make the case for vegetarianism based on logic with my meat eating friends they accuse me of being relentlessly logical when they begin to lose the argument. You just can't win. :-) Then they are not very educated about their meat-eating and your vegetarianism. The only real basis of the discussion is from the point of view of what's called the soil community, an ecological unit, and in these terms vegetarianism is not sustainable. It has to accord with a sustainable food-production system, and it doesn't. So what are you basing it on? You are promoting it and you should have a solid case to present, but I fail to see it. I don't see much logic. Ethics? What are your ethics based on? Ethical realities are seldom in conflict with nature's ways. Neither need be as clear as daylight though, it's all too easy to get them both wrong, it takes work. That aside, I recommend you have a considerable browse round Sally Fallon's website, if you haven't done so already: http://www.westonaprice.org/ Best wishes Keith My previous partner Christine Thery (who did many of the illustrations at the JtF website) once got us into a furious row with a couple of veggies, just as the logic was failing, by saying: In other words you eat vegetables because they don't scream and try to run away when you kill them. LOL! She had a point. I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or clipping baby greens. Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What about their rights? Inside a compost pile seems to me like a reasonable sort of place to end up when it's your turn to get eaten. You'll become billions of creatures, eventually just merging into the spirit of the local soil community. You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex than what you present. I very much agree. (As I may have said...) My friend Prema is a Tibetan nun, based at Daramsala in India with the Dalai Lama. I've quoted her before here: It's not often a person gets the chance to live a human life, it's quite rare, one shouldn't waste such an opportunity. Quite! She told me the Northern Buddhists are vegetarians but they don't make rigid rules about it.
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Dermot Keith Addison wrote: Hello Dermot snip Many very extensive studies have been done on various vegetarian groups such as Seven Day Adventists and some vegetarians claim that as these people are healthier than average that it must be due to their vegetarian diet. I don't subscribe to this view because these people don't smoke or drink either. What I do conclude from this however is that a vegetarian diet doesn't do these people any harm. This is the important point to realise. One of them, and there are exceptions. I'm not quite sure what you mean here. It's only one of the important points to realise in connection with vegetarianism, and there are exceptions to that point. Not everybody thrives on a vegetarian diet. Of course one can cite studies to justify any case in the area of diet and health. Of course, as with all things. We are still in the dark ages as far as the science of nutrition and diet is concerned. You can have two scientists who have received the same training who when presented with the same evidence will come to diametrically opposite conclusions. A bit like the dark art of economics! A bit like everything else too. This does not mean however that there's no way of sifting the wheat from the chaff (or the goats from the sheep perhaps). It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. But there IS good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. That is not in question. Just because they are dumb I don't agree that they are dumb. Quite a few of us have not been agreeing with that, didn't you notice? doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. No, you didn't notice. :-( Some people really hate it (and hate me) when I say these things, but there is no sustainable way of raising plants without animals. There is no traditional farming system that doesn't used animals, and never has been. It just doesn't work - soil fertility sooner or later fails, and then everything else fails too. Likewise in nature mixed farming is the rule, plants are always found with animals. God can't do it, and neither can we. Sustainable farms are mixed, integrated farms. Can't see any reason to hate somebody who expresses an opposing view. If that view happens even unwittingly to challenge certain cherished notions it can be perceived as an unprovoked personal attack and often responded to with a vicious personal counter attack, rather common, especially these days. Everybody should be open to having their views challenged. Scepticism is something we can't have enough of! I'm glad you raised this objection to vegetarianism because it is the first time I have heard this particular view. Well, it's not just a view, there's massive and incontrovertible evidence to support it. We've discussed it here before, as we would, since sustainable farming is obviously a part of sustainable energy - if you can't grow biofuels crops sustainably how can they be sustainable fuels? And it takes animals in the system, as food, not just as respected working labourers who go into retirement when they get too old to work. In fact many sustainable farmers treat their breeding animals like that, but not the offspring. I don't know a lot about the detail of sustainable agriculture Then you're not in a position to make a case for vegetarianism, as you did. but I am aware of at least one farm here in Ireland that is run on a stockless system that the owners claim is sustainable. Similarly there is a organisation in the UK called the Vegan Organic Trust that certifies farms as being vegan and sustainable. In America there is a guy called Will Bonsall who has run the Khadighar Farm near Farmington, Maine for the past 25 years, using veganic methods, i.e. no animal inputs, for the past 20 years. I do know a lot about sustainable agriculture, in practice and in theory, and I've seen a lot of sustainable farms. I've seen a lot of farms too that claimed to be sustainable but they weren't. Yes, for 20 years and more. Just suppose for the sake of argument that it is possible to have sustainable agriculture without any animal input But it's not. and further suppose that it is possible to lead a healthy life on a vegetarian diet, would you then consider it wrong to eat non-human animals? No I wouldn't consider it wrong. But it's much too broad a brush, it's all black and white in your book, it's unrealistic, and I think you're aiming at the wrong target anyway. Don't eat meat? Which particular meat shouldn't I eat? Should I eat a quail that I knew had come from a horrendously crowded and evil factory farm? No I shouldn't, but that won't help the quail, will it? Market forces, yeah, right. What if the quail came from my farm? Sure I'd eat it, nice happy
[Biofuel] Bioheating oil (was disolving lye)
I am icorrect in understanding you can use a differnt (easier?) recipe for heating oil? I'm looking into biodiesel for home heating but have yet to come across anything on the net. If there is a difference can someone point out some references? I need to convince the wife for the initial investment. Mike Luich Salem, NHOn 10/2/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Tom I've been wondering about the problems one might encountertrying to dissolve the lye when making bioheating oil. If I have itright, one would dissolve the same amount of lye as if making biodiesel, but using only half the methanol.One-quarter the methanol. The example given uses 3 litres of methanolfor 60 litres of oil, that's 5% methanol, with the titration amountof lye (titration plus the basic 3.5 g/l for virgin oil). It getshot, of course, but not enough to frighten. We use KOH, and quitenice oil, no problem even though the proportion of KOH to methanol ishigh.You also use a much higher proportion of lye to methanol in the acid-base process than in the single-stage base process, two-thirdshigher, also no problem.Well worth the effort if you can produce low cost heating fuelw/o having to wash it unless you have rubber parts in your furnace, then you might have to wash it, though there can't be much free methanol in it, if any.I'm not sure how easy it is to wash it, I've never tried.Best wishesKeithTom - Original Message -From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Ian Theresa SimsTo: mailto: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 3:24 AMSubject: [Biofuel] disolving lyeHi all Most of the recipe's on JtF describe hours to dissolved the lye inmethanol. Mine usually takes about 20 minute to half an hour. I usetranslucent bottles and check for settled lye. Is there something I am missing? When I mix it I poor the Lye into the methanol and swirlit for a minute or two , leave it for ten minutes or so, swirl somemore until its all gone. The BD I make has clean seperation and is easy to wash. The same goes for either a 1L or 30 L batch.CheersIan___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Dermot, Thanks for the kind and thoughtful reply. I have been a bit flippant in my response to you, because i have judged too hastily, as i now see by your words. I shall endeavor to answer your questions as honestly as possible. On Sunday, October 2, 2005, at 03:51 PM, dermot wrote: Hi Andre, Is your trouble with ethics confined to the ethical treatment of animals? No. I think that we are, as a whole, a very an-ethical species, and for us to apply ethics selectively, or to lay claim to ethical behavior, is something i see as hypocritical. Presumably you want to be treated ethically by others. Yes, i'd like that, don't get much of it... Why then deny that right to another sentient creature just because they don't happen to belong to your species? Because i don't always find killing unethical. Is it unethical for a jackal or cheetah to kill? Ok, maybe unfair since they are not omnivores. How about bears? Rats? I also believe that you don't mean what you say. You do, for instance, believe it is unethical to inflict unneccary pain on any being that is capable of experiencing it. Yes, that's true. Why kill painfully when you can avoid it? SENTIENCE: Having the power of self perception, that feels or is capable of feeling.(Oxford English Dictionary) What I mean by sentient creatures is creatures that are self aware, they can relate to others, act independently, experience joy or pain, are capable of abstract thought, are capable of communication. Which covers most living beings. Not all animals have the same degree of sentiency and therefore not all animals should be treated the same. But where they have the same degree of sentiency, for instance in the ability to feel pain, they should be treated the same. Here's where i have trouble with ethics as defined by humans. Is it for us to decide who is or isn't sentient? Or who is capable or not of feeling pain? Remember for how many years it was thought that circumcision was ok, because newborn boys were unable to feel pain? Plants do not exhibit any of the above features of sentiency and there is no serious research suggesting that they do. All claims to the contrary have been completely discredited. (Natural History, March 1974 cited in Animal Liberation by Peter Singer) I say wait a while, we'll find they do. Science advances slowly, with many stumbles along the road, and many dead ends as well. So where do you draw the line? Different people draw the line in different places. I draw the line at having a central nervous system and possessing most of attributes of sentiency described above. That's just about all of life. You are aware that plants communicate, are you not? For example, conifers in the pacific northwest alert others of insect attack, giving distant members of the tree community time to build up toxins to enable them to successfully repel the attack? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? They have much the same rights. But if a rat interferes with my right to live by trying to give me bubonic plague I kill it as mercifully as possible. If the rat doesn't interfere with my rights I leave him alone. If a rabbit threathens my health by eating all my crops I kill him as well. But only if completely necessary and as humanely as possible. You've just made my point. We as humans feel a 'right' to decide the appropriateness of killing. Once you are able to take that step, the line is drawn arbitrarily. I think the Janes in India are the only ones that draw the line at all animal life. How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What about their rights? Animals eat other animals because they have to to survive. I maintain that humans do not need to. No, perhaps in a strict sense, they don't. But in a long-term ecological perspective they most certainly do. You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you could find to eat was an animal? I would eat the animals. If I was hungry enough I would also eat human animals no problem. But I would not do these things unless it were completely necessary, which thankfully it isn't. I would also eat humans if given a chance. Long pig. Said to be delicious. I wonder if vegans taste better than meat eaters? Is hunger what you would consider a good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? They have more rights than a bull calf because they possess more sentiency (most of the time anyway). :-) They are capable of abstract thought
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Keith, Dermot, On Sunday, October 2, 2005, at 06:11 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Dermot snip for animal manure. I think they are doing that very successfully in Shanghai at the moment. They were doing it very successfully in Shanghai a hundred years ago, not so sure about now. The Chinese still composted absolutely everything possible then. We've discussed humanure composting here too, quite a number of us do that, successfully enough. But, sorry, even by traditional Chinese standards of how much land it takes to feed a human, or how little rather, human manure is not enough to put back what a human takes out. It helps, but you just don't get the biological knock-on effect you get with grazers like cows (see earlier message about ley farming), or even pigs, they're much better at it than we are. I tried every which way to get that to figure out, but it doesn't figure out. I've used humanure from a very nice composting toilet designed at McGill university and improved in Australia and then again by us in Chile. I've put a lot of thought and experimentation (including leaf tissue, sap, and soil analysis) into whether or not you can farm sustainably without animals, using only humanure. The only way you could do it, as i see it, is to replace your animals with fungi. They could break down the cellulose and lignin in grain straws and help to provide the necessary return of nutrients to the soil. It would be a LOT of work on a farm scale. I think a small family might get by on it otherwise. But then fungi are mostly animals, aren't they? Worms make it all a lot easier, but then they are animals too, and they don't live very long, so it could be argued that you are factory farming in 'inhumane' conditions by housing them in your worm bin? Best wishes Keith snip andres ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] the power of spin - harnessing artificial tornadoes as anenergy source
There is a theory to create a controlled artificial tornado within a tornado tower to turn turbines of power generators to generate enormous electricity. All we need to do is to create all sort of condition that will create a tornado inside the tower. That might lead to a gigantic man-made building with a mile tall tower. Some atchitecture difficulty and financing problem here of course. But to use wind turbines to suck hurricanes off shore... i recommend planting more trees and perhaps create man made island that plant more trees. Cheers Rexis On 10/1/05, Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps instead of direct harnessing, which could definitely be bad, maybe we could instead work on hurricane proof wind turbines on flats or platforms just offshore? Design them to roll with the punch and operate at high speeds, to suck energy out of the winds just before the storm makes landfall and reduce it's power just before it hits? That'd probably be environmentally better than forcing all that heat to stay in the Equatorial regions, but still reduce the damage it's going to do when it moves. Just a thought. -K On 9/30/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If man could harness some of the energy of storms, the storms probably wouldnot be as bad.Maybe the storms are as bad as they need to be.Keith ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Advice on finding a milk pastuerizer?
A long time ago in a land far away my extended family raised Holsteins and had a 2,000 gallon milk pastuerizer. I have seen them as small 30 gallons. Anyone have any idea where I might find a 50 - 100 gallons device? Ebay has been pretty fruitless. I could go to Va, WV, MD or DE for pickup. -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Block heater for an 82 Mercedes
They are not hard to install but getting the freeze plug(s) out is not that much fun. I used to use an old electric blanket on a timer for my '85 MB. Wasn't pretty but it was free! Thomas Kelly wrote: There is no garage for my diesel car. I want to run it on BD100 year round here in Pine Plains, NY, USA where winters get cold. Part of the solution is installing a block heater. Where would a block heater be installed in an 82 Mercedes 300DS ? I've been told that there should be a freeze-out plug in the block and that this is where it can be installed. I know that the easiest place to have the heater installed is at a service station or a Mercedes dealer, but I'd like to do this myself. Three months ago I didn't know a bushing from a pipe nipple, a clearwater pump from an aquarium pump. With the help of list members and the solid information at JtF, I've built a processor and am making 75 L batches of quality BD. Half goes in the car, half in the heating oil tank. I'm getting a lesson today on furnaces: nozzles, general maintenance, etc. Would like to burn bioheating oil instead of BD. The point here is that one step in the right direction provides a place from which the next step is possible and a different view which may well make another step in the same direction enticing. I have been focused on BD, but have found that there certainly is a lot more here than biodiesel info. I thank all for their help especially those who are so patient with us slow learners. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] In-tank fuel screen
Buy the shop book, or sneak by and look under fuel system or chassis Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello to All, I'm trying to remove the filter from inside the fuel tank of a 1982 Mercedes 300DS. Told that there might be an access panel to the fuel tank, we have taken out the back seats and the covering in the trunk to expose the fuel tank from the top and 2 sides. Having no success, we tried to unbolt and pull out the tank, but were thwarted there as well; it wouldn't budge. Fortunately it got dark before we (my father-in-law is my accomplice) could cause any irreparable damage. Can anyone give us a better plan before we disassemble the whole vehicle? Side note: The previous owners maintained the car very well and used a fuel additive that claims to remove water from the system and keep the fuel system clean. After 800 miles of BD100 I checked the prefilter to find just 2 tiny black specks visible. Is it possible that I can forgo the ordeal of removing what my accompliss refers to as the sock from the tank? My wife loves driving the car and having a fillup station at our house.I dread the thought of getting a call on a cold, rainy night that the car stopped. I'm ready to go in and find that darn sock if I must. Help appreciated Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Re-thinking Washing systems...
I have been giving washing some thought these days. Bubble washing is the simplest but has some reservations with regards to the reactions to the fuel. I like the agitation or mixing but I have been noticing that the soap does not easily settle in some cases. Here is my thought. Build a wash system with a large tank that has a domed top that a clear tube connects to a tank that is connected to another tank with a domed bottom. The clear tube is a sight tube that has valves on both ends of the tube. The bottom tank is the holding tank for the wash water. The top holds the unwashed biodiesel. Water is pumped from the wash tank to the top tank. The water would be sprayed either with a mist or a diffusion spray that would cover the entire surface of the biodiesel. This would wash the soap solids down where you could view them in the sight tube. The domed top of the wash tank would direct the oil back towards the top tank and the domed bottom of the top tank would let the water wash the soaps to the wash tank. The sight tube could be used to see where the good stuff begins and the soaps end. Valves could be installed to direct the finished fuel to a settling tank or hold the biodiesel for another wash. The wash water could be drained refilled through the top tank. Any thoughts? Fred Finch ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Red Devil Lye
Hmm...KOH anyone? Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, This has been discussed at length on the soap making lists, and yes, it is true. There is still some stock out, but they discontinued making the Lye in May. Bright Blessings, Kim At 01:52 PM 10/1/2005, you wrote: I asked my local True Value Hardware guy about Red Devil Lye being discontinued. He said he's heard it before and that he doesn't think it's true. I did buy his last two bottles, tho' ;-) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Red Devil Lye
Depending on how much you want to make you can buy dry gas (methanol) - I get it for .69 at a dollar store and Red Devil Lye at the hardware store. Brian Rodgers wrote: Would you say that Red Devil Lye is or was the best source of Potassium hydroxide? As It is way too early in the morning here in New Mexico and I have difficulties remembering which chemicals are which I looked up potassium hydroxide again. Maybe it will stick this time. The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05. potassium hydroxide chemical compound with formula KOH. Pure potassium hydroxide forms white, deliquescent crystals. For commercial and laboratory use it is usually in the form of white pellets. A strong base, it dissolves readily in water, giving off much heat and forming a strongly alkaline, caustic solution (see acids and bases). It is commonly called caustic potash. It closely resembles sodium hydroxide in its chemical properties and has similar uses, e.g., in making soap, in bleaching, and in manufacturing chemicals, but is less widely used because of its higher cost. It is prepared chiefly by electrolysis of potassium chloride; commercial grades of it sometimes contain the chloride as well as other impurities. Also, my son and his best friend work at the local university, I asked them what type of equipment they can get their hands on to test the purity of household chemicals. It is my understanding that methanol can also be found in general goods stores if one knows what to look for. BBQ lighter fluid has no ingredients listing on the side like it should, but I am sure I have read here that it is based on methanol, true or no? I asked the guys to look for a gas chromagraph at school. Can some of the laboratory types verify this would be a good piece of equipment for the younger generation to learn how to use? I have the worst memory for new information so I have digested every message in this group as well as a few other sources in an attempt to memorise terms and processes. Unfortunately, as the old song or saying goes, I got a job, but it don't pay, thus my means and enthusiasm are constantly struggling for dominance. In other words I desperately need to find cheap or free equipment and chemicals 'and' I need to have alternate sources for as much of the needed stuff so I can better figure this all out while I am in the thinking about it stages of making my own biodiesel. Please any help which you lab techies can give us about analysing chemicals will be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Brian Rodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Block heater for an 82 Mercedes
Mike Weaver wrote: They are not hard to install but getting the freeze plug(s) out is not that much fun. It's easier when the engine is out because there's more room. You might have to loosen the engine mounts and lift the engine with a floor jack from the pan (using a block of wood beneath it to ensure it doesn't crush). Next, drain the cooling system. Use a screwdriver and a mallet to drive ONE inside edge of the freeze plug into the block, so that the other edge comes out. Once you can get a vice grip on it, pull UP and out. Dab a bit of vaseline on the block heater to make it go in easier. Carefully drive it in, using a short length of pipe that fits loosely into the new plug. When it's in, score one edge of the plug and block with a screwdriver, then seal the plug with a SMALL bead of silicone. Let it dry and cure according to the instructions. Wire it up. Fill your cooling system and check for leaks. Once you're confident it DOESN'T leak, warm up the engine and check again. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] OFM Tube
Quoting john owens [EMAIL PROTECTED]: hi I just finished designing and building a batch processor based on the journey to forever 90 ltr processor I now want to design an ofm flow tube. Is there any other sites other than cambridge That would be usefull. John I've thought about this, but think that the OFM technology might not be the best for yields. I know that the Cambridge site mentions biodiesel production but posts to this list make me think that the agitation may actually harm yield. I base this on a post I made and the subsequent replies I got when Mike Allen was designing Deep Throat, http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor8.html - I think it was during then, but anyway, someone was designing a reactor... The designer had mentioned that they where using a motor with a gear box so that the mixing blades rotate at a relatively slow speed hence not churning everything up. I asked the question that wouldn't it be better to flog the crap out of it so that there was rapid and complete contact between all of the component chemicals. The reply was that due to the equilibrium (reaction kinematics???) of the oil/methoxide - biodiesel/glycerine reaction, it was better to do things slowly and allow the glycerine to drop out of the reation, down to the bottom of the reation, hence a tall slender reator is better that a low squat one. It appears that the presence of the glycerine will hinder the conversion from oil to BioD. How is this relevant to OFM? With the OFM technology, all of the components are in the tube, hence the glycerine does not get a chance to drop out, in fact it is mixed up in the agitating components thus will probably hinder the reaction. I could see OFM being good for commercial situations where you could break the reaction down into, say, 3 parts/stages, the first part is run with the source oil but only a 1/3 of the required methoxide - and some glycerine is produced, but not enough to hinder the reaction. The results of this are run through a centrifuge/settling tank with the glycerine being removed, then the oil with the next 1/3 of the methoxide added is run through the next section, more glycerine is produced, but once again not enough to hinder things, the results centrifuged and then the oil plus remaining methoxide run through the final stage, by now the original oil being fully converted and the resulting small amount of glycerine centrifuged off. This is probably a viable process for 100,000l/day plants but with centrifuges costing $10K each, probably not for the backyarder. Please bear in mind that this view of things is based on reading posts here, a bit of other research and being a Civil Engineer, not an organic chemist or Chemical Engineer. If I've misunderstood anything or got something wrong, please feel free to correct me. Regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Block heater for an 82 Mercedes
Ouch. You must've done it. I used a shaped piece of hardwood to get the plug out and several pieces of 2X4. One other engines I wound up cutting it with a cold pack chisel. This is a last resort, and don't be too free with leading edge of the chisel. On a 25 year-old car thing can get pretty frozen. Good luck. robert luis rabello wrote: Mike Weaver wrote: They are not hard to install but getting the freeze plug(s) out is not that much fun. It's easier when the engine is out because there's more room. You might have to loosen the engine mounts and lift the engine with a floor jack from the pan (using a block of wood beneath it to ensure it doesn't crush). Next, drain the cooling system. Use a screwdriver and a mallet to drive ONE inside edge of the freeze plug into the block, so that the other edge comes out. Once you can get a vice grip on it, pull UP and out. Dab a bit of vaseline on the block heater to make it go in easier. Carefully drive it in, using a short length of pipe that fits loosely into the new plug. When it's in, score one edge of the plug and block with a screwdriver, then seal the plug with a SMALL bead of silicone. Let it dry and cure according to the instructions. Wire it up. Fill your cooling system and check for leaks. Once you're confident it DOESN'T leak, warm up the engine and check again. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Red Devil Lye
OK, I'm curious... I've not bought methanol at a dollar store before, what quantity to you get for .69? doug swanson Mike Weaver wrote: Depending on how much you want to make you can buy dry gas (methanol) - I get it for .69 at a dollar store and Red Devil Lye at the hardware store. -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Red Devil Lye
355 ml des wrote: OK, I'm curious... I've not bought methanol at a dollar store before, what quantity to you get for .69? doug swanson Mike Weaver wrote: Depending on how much you want to make you can buy dry gas (methanol) - I get it for .69 at a dollar store and Red Devil Lye at the hardware store. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] In-tank fuel screen
concerning screen in tank, I used to have an 80 300cd. Ran 100%bio for one year then sold car. Nevereven knew about the tank screen. My friend has a 240D and a 300cd. The 240 has been running 100BD for 11/2 years with no problem with the screen and the 300cd no problem with the screen yet.(only about 6 mo's on BD100).Dave - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 2:27 AM Subject: [Biofuel] In-tank fuel screen Hello to All, I'm trying to remove the filter from inside the fuel tank of a 1982 Mercedes 300DS. Told that there might be an access panel to the fuel tank,we have taken out the back seats andthe covering in the trunk to expose the fuel tank from the top and 2 sides. Having no success, we tried to unbolt and pull out the tank, but were thwarted there as well; it wouldn't budge. Fortunately it got dark before we (my father-in-law is my accomplice) could cause any irreparable damage. Can anyone give us a better plan before we disassemble the whole vehicle? Side note: The previous owners maintained the car very well and used a fuel additive that claims to remove water from the system and keep the fuel system clean. After 800 miles of BD100 I checked the prefilter to findjust 2 tiny black specks visible. Is it possible that I can forgo the ordeal of removing what my accompliss refers to as "the sock" from the tank? My wife loves driving the car and having a fillup station at our house.I dread the thought of getting a call on a cold, rainy night that "the car stopped". I'm ready to go in and find that darn sock if I must. Help appreciated Tom ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Killing animals- graphic was Re: New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
I am a vegetarian for health reasons but I now see why some people are vegetarians for other reasons but most importantly I would like to see ranchers raise their lifestock on only grass because 90 to 95% of grains grown in North America are used to feed livestock not people. We could use some of that animal grain feed to feed our cars instead. Terry Dyck From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Killing animals- graphic was Re: New question on oil seed crops and ley farming Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:42:14 -0500 Greetings, So far I have not had a steer to kill. We lost our expected calf last February, so it will be next April before I have calves on the ground. However, we do kill pigs, lamb, chicken and rabbits, with the occasional goat. I did put a steer out of it's misery on the highway in front of our place, but it was not mine. The floor had given way on somebodies trailer on the way to the sale barn and he lost 3 yearlings. I dislike doing the rabbits, but we have been doing them for 1.5 years now. I do find it much easier with 2 of us. I keep the rabbits in their normal cages and just pull them out one at a time. It takes a couple of minutes to walk to our killing area, so I have time to cuddle the rabbit, and commune with it. I do carefully explain that staying still will prevent any additional pain and the rabbits do cooperate with us. We use a 5 pound short handled sledge and make sure we hit the rabbit just where the backbone meets the head. A wooden board over a very firm surface is required. If done correctly, one hit is all it takes. As far as we have been able to find out, this is the most humane manner to kill rabbits. If anyone knows a better way that will not poison the food we eat, I am open to suggestions. We have a problem with using chemicals to kill, since I am already chemically sensitive. The whole point of having the farm is to have clean, healthy food. A few years ago I read a study from Japan on killing chickens and what was the most humane way to do so. The study discovered that chopping it's head off was not the least painful method, but a broken neck was better. Since then, we have made it a habit to twist the head and break the neck even though it does not bleed the bird out as well. I assume you are aware that water at 160 - 165F is the perfect temperature for removing feathers. Boiling water will set the feathers and make them very difficult to get out. For the pigs, we do use the shotgun from behind the ear. I found out the hard way that my 380 will not drop a pig in one shot, despite what the gun salesman said. I was furious with him for that! The 380 works well for lamb and goat. Our animals are always moved away from the others for killing. Most of them die with their mouths full, chewing contentedly on a treat. We can pet all the animals that were born on our farm, and most of the ones we brought in. They are used to us handling them and moving them around so we cause no fear when killing time comes. We do talk to them and tell them what is coming, thank them for their life energies, and spend time with them first. You can taste the difference in the meat of an animals that go peacefully into the freezer. We do not kill anything that we have no need to kill. If a snake is a pest, we change our routine to pick up the eggs earlier and the snake goes and finds other things to eat. We have found that the snakes keep the mice and rat population down, so we live with the snakes. We have no children on the premises, ever. We have even found a use for the fire ants, so unless they are dinning on us, we don't kill them either. The one exception is cockroaches in the house, and I am sorry, but I can't stand them. We changed to this standard of not killing anything about 10 years ago and it has worked well for us. My husband does occasionally forget and kills a few grasshoppers, but by never killing the spiders, they have not been as much of a problem as they were. I hope you find something in all of this that is helpful. Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:48 PM 9/28/2005, you wrote: Hi Kim, A Tibetan Rinpoche visiting Synergia Ranch in Santa Fe once, was told of a gopher infestation in the fruit orchard, and asked something about the morals of killing, since noisemakers had not worked. His reply: Rodent infestations must be dealt with. It was pretty clear he had no qualms about exterminating them. He also ate meat for the same reasons as the Dalai Lama. Yes, rabbits are really hard. So far, i've been copping out by giving them away. Just how, exactly, do you kill your steers? Thanks, Andres On 9/27/05, Garth Kim Travis mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, I too kill my own animals, we put their names on the package of meat and remember them when we eat them, giving
Re: [Biofuel] disolving lye
Hi there I have found a good way to mix the methoxide. The process needs some exposure to the methanol at this time. I hope to eliminate this soon. I got a stainless steal soda syrup container on e bay .5 gal cap. It has one port at the top that is above the top limit of the fluide and one port that goes to the bottom of the vessel . I took out the relief valve and put a ½ o ring then a ½ I D bronze bushing. I picked up a small paint mixer at the hardware store welded a ½ stick of round bar to the end of the mixer. After filling the vessel with methanol I add the dose of N.H.O. put the cap on and put the vessel in a large bucket of cold water. With a hand drill on the mixer I mix the stuffing out of the mix. The heat generated is quite enpresseve thus the need for the bucket of cold water. The only draw back at this time is I am doing 120 l batches = 6.35 gal of methoxide. I have been just mixing the max of methoxide and pumping raw methanol to make up the difference so for it seems to work out o.k. I dont know if I can post pictures of this on this sight but if there is any interest I would gladly send picks to those who would like. Good luck Derick From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 4:52 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] disolving lye Ian, Not knowing your titration results, or if you are using WVO or virgin oil, I will throw in my 1.5 cents. I think the difficulty in dissolving lye in methanol is a matter of the amount of lye needed to be dissolved/liter of methanol. Dissolving 3.5g/L for virgin oil is easy enough. However, each additional gram of lye needed to neutralize the FFA's in WVO seems to double the time needed to dissolve it. Another thing to consider is the methodused to dissolve the lye in the methanol. I use a 5 gallon carboy (19L). The 6L of methanol needed for a 30L batch leaves plenty of room for agitating the solution.If such a system is used for larger (50L) batches, the container is more than half full andIcan onlyswirl the mix gently. Maybe you are using very high quality oil or have a better method for dissolving your lye. Whatever you are doing,the resultssound good to me. Tom - Original Message - From: Ian Theresa Sims To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 3:24 AM Subject: [Biofuel] disolving lye Hi all Most of the recipe's on JtFdescribe hours to dissolved the lye in methanol.Mine usually takes about 20 minute to half an hour. I use translucent bottles and check for settled lye. Is there something I am missing?When I mix it I poor the Lye into the methanol and swirl it for a minute or two , leave it for ten minutes or so,swirl some more until its all gone.The BD I make has clean seperation and is easy to wash. The same goes for either a 1L or30 L batch. Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Using DC Electricity as a catalyst
Does any one have any information or an address on the web that I can get concerning using electricity (cathode -anode) as the catalyst for biodiesel? I would very much like to read up on the possibilities if there has been a research paper done. Thanks Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Block heater for an 82 Mercedes
Mike Weaver wrote: Ouch. You must've done it. Swapping freeze plugs is a standard procedure on every engine I've ever rebuilt! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methoxide mixing question.
I've been thinking over some things in my head, mostly theorizing since I have yet to actually find a source of methanol in my local area that isn't being a pain and continuously asking to see my Hazmat permit... Do I actually need one? I'm only asking for a gallon, or less, of the stuff? Anyway, on to the theorizing. How do you all mix your methoxide into your oil? Pour it in slowly, or let it drip into the oil from a bin? I was wondering if maybe it would mix better if you introduced it at the mixer pump. Oil goes through the pump, and comes out the other side with just a little methoxide added into it. This gets churned into the batch-at-large, and then as it gets worked to the bottom it goes back through the pump again, getting a little more methoxide added, and so on until all of it's added. Just thinking perhaps it's a more direct method of introducing it, maintaining an even distribution and a slow but thorough mix of the chemicals into the oil. Any thoughts? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Steel drums, Where to get them?
I search the internet but found the best deal at my local lumber yard. SB - Original Message - From: Michael Luich To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:21 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Steel drums, Where to get them? I'm looking forward to getting started on making biodiesel (hopefully for the house as well) But i'm not sure where i could get a hold of steel drums? any suggestions? Mike Luich [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water Removal
Are there any methods other than heating the BD to remove water? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Biodiesel Storage
I just made my first successful test batches. Now, I want to make about 200 gallons and store it . Can I store the BD in plastic barrels? I stored some Dino Diesel in a white plastic barrel once and wound up with 50 gallons of diesel on the barn floor because it ate the seams out of the barrel. Should I store it in steel barrels? Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Red Devil Lye
For what its worth, I was at the local super market, Weis, and they had a sale on Red Devil Lye (RDL). It also had a note that it is being discontinued. Not sure if it is the actual RDL being discontinued, or if Weis is discontinuing it. Just seems awfuly coincidental though. Jeremy ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
