[Biofuel] was...Tories fail to block Kyoto legislation: Liberal MP says party ignoring - Ottawa Citizen - 2006.10.04
Good news. Many believe that, Ambrose and Harper are trying to weaken environmental legislation and harmonize it with the current u.s. administrations policies. In hearings the other day, Ambrose basically simply blamed the liberals for not doing anything about the problem, yet could give no details about the conservative plans for a 'made in Canada' climate plan. The conservative environment minister, did have meetings planned with the major car co's and energy producers/ providers, promising to consult with them on any new laws. Hmmm. sounds like lax legislation, loopholes and vague future targeting might be part of the 'consulting process'. She has a huge emission problem with developing tar sands, although recent agreements could see some of the raw tarsand shipped to Texas for processing there. Just exporting some of the the problem somewhere else. After all, Canada DID sign Kyoto, a binding international treaty. Though emissions have skyrocketed, that is all the more reason to try to honor it. By 2012 when new laws are planned, even though past goals were not met, everyone can reevaluate the situation and do better. In the next round, new treaties are apt to be stricter, will need to include U.S, India, China and anyone else who didn't sign on the first time. We are just going to have to cope, however we have a great opportunity to help if we rapidly adapt alternative energy technologies to become the norm rather than the exception. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Tories fail to block Kyoto legislation: Liberal MP says party ignoring - Ottawa Citizen - 2006.10.04 Sent: 06 Oct '06 22:42 Byline: Mike De Souza The minority Conservative government suffered a significant defeat at the hands of the opposition yesterday over legislation calling for the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol on climate change. Although Conservative MPs gave Environment Minister Rona Ambrose a warm round of applause as she rose to vote against the legislation, the Liberals, Bloc Quebecois and NDP teamed up to defeat the government in a 152 to 115 vote. The legislation could force the government to deliver a plan that would honour Canada's Kyoto commitments even though the Conservatives have called those targets unrealistic . Critics said the government is sending a clear message that it wants to turn Canadians into outlaws by ignoring international law that requires Canada along with about 160 countries to reduce greenhouse gas emissions below 1990 levels. The prime minister of Canada is saying: 'I want Canada to be an outlaw,' said Montreal area Liberal MP Pablo Rodriguez, who tabled the private member's bill, C-288. Ms. Ambrose did not make herself available to reporters to comment on the legislation. But a government official denied that the vote indicated that the Conservatives wanted to break international law. The (Kyoto) targets would be difficult, said Ms. Ambrose's spokeswoman, Shannon Haggarty. That's why we're looking at going forward -- moving beyond Kyoto to an environmental agenda that's about, both, cleaning up the air and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. The federal Liberals were lambasted by federal environment commissioner Johanne Gelinas last week over their dismal record on climate change, allowing greenhouse gas emissions to rise by nearly 27 per cent when they were in power, despite a series of environmental programs. Ms. Gelinas criticized the former government for announcing about $6-billion worth of spending on climate change initiatives without an adequate system to track performance and results. But Mr. Rodriguez said the new government could make matters worse. These (Conservative) people here are denying Canada's commitments, he said. They are turning their backs on the biggest threat we are facing. Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence)
Hallo Michael, I may be running on assumptions here and you appear to me to be running on some assumptions, but I do realize that assumptions are only that and nothing more and may be false. Perhaps it is just a matter of definitions or perception. I will give both of us the benefit of the doubt. :o) I was born into, raised as and am presently a member of a mystical religion, that being Friends (Quakers). We had a schism back in the early 1800's here in the states and my family ended up on the Hicksite side of the thing. Outwardly conservative and inwardly liberal. Hicks once stated the following: Now I want these things to sink deep into the heart of every age, sex and condition. Be willing to investigate for yourselves; don't mind what I say, or what any one else may say, but bring things home to the truth in your own bosoms; turn them over and over, and see if there is not something in them worthy of preservation--and if there is not, leave them. I say, I want you to investigate for yourselves; for we have that liberty, in this land of liberty. We have a right to think for ourselves, about what we know to be the truth in ourselves, and nothing but the truth...Oh! then, that we may become willing to turn inward to what the light makes manifest...Whatsoever is wrong is reproved by this light, and all things that are reproveable we know, for they are made manifest by the light; clearly so. And it is reasonable to conclude that without light, nothing can be made manifest. But when we come into the light of the Lord, all things will be made manifest, when the mind is willing, and the heart is disposed to receive God in the way of his coming. I feel earnest in my desires for us, that we may this evening lay these things properly to heart. I hope you will take these things home, my friends, and not be hasty in deciding, but turn them over in your minds, and if you can find any thing in them, well, and if not leave them. (Gould 1830) If this isn't the mystical equivalent of the scientific method then I will eat my hat (either straw or felt). It uses operational terms, allows for experimental duplication and repeatability, calls for emperical observation and induction, uses analytic-synthetic thinking, allows for prediction and falsification and the conclusions come from a scientific public consensus of truth. While all of this is not readily observable from the small paragraph above, it is if one takes the time to get acquainted with Friends beliefs (or those of other branches of mystics). You should be able to get the sense of it from the paragraph above though. But brother, we haven't defined out terms. You claim mystical experience is unverifiable but it is verifiable to anyone with the right tools and interest. If I were to tell you that the existence of atoms is unverifiable you would tell me that I just don't have the right tools and expect me to accept that. Same same mystical experience brother. Goose, gander. Because a person does not pursue one particular path does not obviate the existence of that path nor does it make that path irrelevant. And you can analyze, criticize, or accept anything pertaining to it, including its existence IF you care to take the trouble to examine it thoroughly. But one size does not fit all and if a person doesn't have the interest then there will be no investigation. I would urge caution however to those making pronouncements about something they have not investigated thoroughly and I would also not dismiss something solely because it was subjective. Headaches are subjective brother. :o) And again, mystical experience can be verified if one has enough interest to take the time (and it is a long process) to investigate. Now brother, for this bit: It is possible to have knowledge which comes through a route other than the senses. This is where the time comes in in the investigation. It is not magical at all. The concept of truth is associated with wisdom and facts with knowledge. Truth never changes but facts do. In order to understand how one comes by knowledge through routes other than the senses requires a persons time and experimentation. It is not demonstrable by another and there is no equation I know of which will show it. It is entirely subjective. Once one has had the experience however it can be spoken of with others having had the same experience rationally and intelligently. To simply discount it because one has not had the experience is an error akin to discounting snow because one has never seen it. Since the mystical experience is subjective (as is the headache) it is not incumbent on mystics to prove anything. There is a great body of literature out there which can get very technical about the mystical
Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concernedwith.
What good would the methanol test do? I don't see a relationship with Polymerization. Now If you get a varnish layer like you would when oxidation affects Tung oil thats a sure giveaway it seems. I may be wrong but please explain. Also, Tung oil is a good subject here, Polymerization affects it about as fast as anything going all you do is add oxygen and it happens. However I have store it for years by just containering it to eliminate the exposure to oxygen as I use it. I also understand the oil has oxygen present during the packaging and seldom it is when I don' t open a can that has been around for a couple years that there is not a Skin. However the skin removed and the remaining oil is as good as ever until you add oxygen again. So my premise here is: Catalysts may be present but without the oxygen they are inert to a point. Therefore, it becomes more important to reduce Oxygen in storage and processing than variables that are out of your control. However that is not to say one should introduce any Metal ions in the process if at all avoidable. I think that Biodiesel can be stored well if it is: 1) Stored with the containers full as possible. 2) Stored out of sunlight and in as cold a place as possible. 3) Processed in a way as to eliminate oxygen and metal ions in the process as much as possible. 4) Use a hydrolyzed oil if you can get your hands on it. 5) If using a venturi it is absolute prerequisite that you DO NOT LET AIR CHURN IN DURING PROCESSING. 6) Get the fuel dry. ( use a Diesel fuel de-ox and fungicide.) I have been wrong before and submit this premise to the greater minds of the list for scrutiny. Interesting subject this. Jim Joe Street wrote: Hi Tom; Just for giggles, if you get time I'd be curious if the methanol test still passes on the 2 month old B100. I assume it will still oxidize even without the copper in constant contact. There is sure to be metal ions in the fuel from various sources. Now that the cold is here and I can only run B50 I'll slow down my production so I don't get ahead of myself like I did last winter. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, Keep in mind that I had a 1M. piece of copper tubing submerged in the BD for over 3 months. I have a cubie of BD that was still crystal clear after 2 months (the longest I have stored BD other than the polymerized stuff) and it will go in the car. The 50+ gal (200L) of BD in question is burning in my oil-fired boiler. I'm about half way through it and with the temps getting cooler it should be gone soon. Good riddance to it. I like the silver lining you found in what looked like a grey cloud. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:12 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concernedwith. While looking for info on IR spectra, I found this excellent paper; http://nationalbiodieselboard.com/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19970612_gen-234.pdf#search=%22biodiesel%20methyl%20ester%20wavenumber%22 Which talks about issues surrounding fuel contamination and deposits. An earlier thread had comments from Tom Kelly regarding copper ions causing polymerization. According to this paper other metals such as aluminum and iron can catalyze polymerization when biodiesel is stored. This news is good and bad. The bad news is I think it is impossible to avoid these metal ions. Even if the system is all plastic or plastic lined I bet the WVO feedstocks are already chocked with metal, and the fuel will pick up metals in the vehicle anyways. This means that biodiesel should not be stored. DUH. Didn't I read that on J2F years ago? The good news is that the polymerization is slow at room temperature. This is also good news because it means that the folks who are trying to produce massive quantities of biodiesel are going to have a BIG problem that they just cannot solve because they need to store and transport the product. And their product has a poor shelf life. Hmmm. Of course the home brewer who can make fuel locally and use it immediately doesn't have to worry. Yy. Chalk one up for sustainability. Uh I guess we already knew this eh Keith? But I never thought of it as a problem for big oil until now. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] was ..New study shows Arctic ice coverage lowest-ever, decline accelerating -CP Wire - 2006.10.03
like arguing with a box of hammers snip
He he, This really struck my funny bone. I was asked during a recent api poll
what the most important issue was in the upcoming election, the nice girl
listed about everything BUT GW. Well I have to commend all those Patriots (both
national and global) ({Global Patriot? you read it here first)}that continue to
raise awareness of the biggest little issue.
Jim
AltEnergyNetwork wrote:
Yes it is indeed very scary.
While most people are convinced that the problem is real and needs to be
acted on, I still have many arguements with sceptics in a couple of my groups.
These denialists
are like argueing with a box of hammers and they still dismiss GW and
increasing extreme climate events
as a liberal, econut plot.
Perhaps they are infiltrators from some of those 60+ front orgs and think
tanks funded by big oil, dedicated to planting confusion about global
climate change. They are all well funded and continue to state that GW is a
natural occurance and human emissions have nothing to do with it.
Unbelievable, what some of these conservative blogs, 'news rags' and the
propaganda, misinformation and outright lies they still try to spread around.
We have to fight it on every front, develop solutions for mitigating some of
the problems that we have caused and learn to adapt to a damaged world.
Fortunately the tide seems to be turning and politicos of all stripes are
stepping over themselves to show their 'green credentials'. Most now, finally
seem to be convinced that one of the best ways to a sustainable future is to
accelerate biofuels and all types of alternative energy into the mainstream
market. We'll see.
regards
tallex
---Original Message---
From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New study shows Arctic ice coverage lowest-ever,
decline accelerating -CP Wire - 2006.10.03
Sent: 07 Oct '06 03:45
Just for fun I fit a curve to the three rate of melt listed below The
formula that fit the curve on the conservative side was X^1/2+X =Y this
places the rate at 16.4% in five years. THIS IS SCARY STUFF!!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Byline: BY BOB WEBER
The ocean area covered by Arctic sea ice last summer
was as low as it's ever been, according to a newly
released study.
And the rate of melting gets faster every year,
suggesting that a self-perpetuating warming cycle
predicted by climate change models is already at
work, said the data released by the main American
centre for ice studies.
``Sea ice is not doing well and it has not recovered
and it doesn't appear that it is going to recover,'' said
Mark Serreze of the National Snow and Ice Data
Centre in Boulder, Colo.
Global warming is so far having its most dramatic
effects in the North, so Arctic sea ice is considered to
be one of the most important indicators of climate
change.
The ice also plays an important role in global climate
because it affects the delicate balance of ocean
salinity and temperature.
As well, it's crucial for everything from polar bears
who depend on the floe edge for much of their
hunting to shippers on the lookout for more efficient
routes between ports.
Serreze's group uses data from satellites and weather
stations to monitor the Arctic ice cap. Every fall,
around mid-September, the centre releases a snapshot
at the end of the summer melting season of what is
called the sea ice minimum.
This year's minimum, which occurred Sept. 14,
showed the fourth-lowest extent of sea ice on a single
day in 29 years of satellite records.
When the entire month of September was considered,
the amount of ocean either ice-covered or ice-choked
was the second lowest on record. Only 2005 was
lower.
And when only ice-covered ocean was measured,
2006 tied the worst year ever.
``We just ran the numbers this morning,'' Serreze said
Tuesday. ``It looks like we're in a dead tie with
2002.''
The study also found that the ice is melting faster
than ever.
From 1979 to 2001, Arctic ice shrunk at the rate of
6.5 per cent per decade. After 2002, that pace rose to
7.3 per cent.
By last year, the world was losing about eight per
cent of its ice per decade. Now, the speed is 8.6 per
cent.
The accelerating rate conforms with what scientists
call feedback loops.
Dark, open seas absorb the sunlight that white ice
would have reflected, so warming speeds up the more
ice melts. As well, open seas generate more cloud
cover, blanketing the ocean during the long Arctic
winter and preventing temperatures from falling to
normal levels.
``These feedbacks are starting to kick in,'' said
Serreze. ``I'm not terribly optimistic about the future
of the ice.''
If current trends hold, Arctic ice will be largely gone
by 2060 _ a full decade earlier than the most
pessimistic previous predictions, he suggested.
Most of the ice losses are concentrated off Russia's
Siberian coast.
Winds and currents tend to push ice into Canada's
Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copperto be concernedwith.
Jim, After storing the BD for 3 months with the copper tube in it I was concerned because the BD was cloudy. I heated it and it cleared, but I was still suspicious of it. I did the methanol solubility test on it. It had passed the test beautifully when I made it 3 months before. Now the methanol was cloudy; no precipitate, but cloudy. After two or three days the cloud settled to the bottom. It was not the typical residue I get when I have an incomplete reaction. I suspect that polymerized BD does not dissolve in methanol as well as unpolymerized could be wrong. You give good advice re: storage, but I'm a bit leary about using the biocide. It is extremely toxic and being a biocide, is not biodegradable. I prefer to make BD that will be consumed in 1, 2, or 3 months. I wonder about storing WVO in metal drums? Some of my settling tanks are recycled methanol barrels. Best to you, Tom - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copperto be concernedwith. What good would the methanol test do? I don't see a relationship with Polymerization. Now If you get a varnish layer like you would when oxidation affects Tung oil thats a sure giveaway it seems. I may be wrong but please explain. Also, Tung oil is a good subject here, Polymerization affects it about as fast as anything going all you do is add oxygen and it happens. However I have store it for years by just containering it to eliminate the exposure to oxygen as I use it. I also understand the oil has oxygen present during the packaging and seldom it is when I don' t open a can that has been around for a couple years that there is not a Skin. However the skin removed and the remaining oil is as good as ever until you add oxygen again. So my premise here is: Catalysts may be present but without the oxygen they are inert to a point. Therefore, it becomes more important to reduce Oxygen in storage and processing than variables that are out of your control. However that is not to say one should introduce any Metal ions in the process if at all avoidable. I think that Biodiesel can be stored well if it is: 1) Stored with the containers full as possible. 2) Stored out of sunlight and in as cold a place as possible. 3) Processed in a way as to eliminate oxygen and metal ions in the process as much as possible. 4) Use a hydrolyzed oil if you can get your hands on it. 5) If using a venturi it is absolute prerequisite that you DO NOT LET AIR CHURN IN DURING PROCESSING. 6) Get the fuel dry. ( use a Diesel fuel de-ox and fungicide.) I have been wrong before and submit this premise to the greater minds of the list for scrutiny. Interesting subject this. Jim Joe Street wrote: Hi Tom; Just for giggles, if you get time I'd be curious if the methanol test still passes on the 2 month old B100. I assume it will still oxidize even without the copper in constant contact. There is sure to be metal ions in the fuel from various sources. Now that the cold is here and I can only run B50 I'll slow down my production so I don't get ahead of myself like I did last winter. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, Keep in mind that I had a 1M. piece of copper tubing submerged in the BD for over 3 months. I have a cubie of BD that was still crystal clear after 2 months (the longest I have stored BD other than the polymerized stuff) and it will go in the car. The 50+ gal (200L) of BD in question is burning in my oil-fired boiler. I'm about half way through it and with the temps getting cooler it should be gone soon. Good riddance to it. I like the silver lining you found in what looked like a grey cloud. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:12 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concernedwith. While looking for info on IR spectra, I found this excellent paper; http://nationalbiodieselboard.com/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19970612_gen-234.pdf#search=%22biodiesel%20methyl%20ester%20wavenumber%22 Which talks about issues surrounding fuel contamination and deposits. An earlier thread had comments from Tom Kelly regarding copper ions causing polymerization. According to this paper other metals such as aluminum and iron can catalyze polymerization when biodiesel is stored. This news is good and bad. The bad news is I think it is impossible to avoid these metal ions. Even if the system is all plastic or plastic lined I bet the WVO feedstocks are already chocked with metal, and the fuel will pick up metals in the vehicle anyways. This means that
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Hi Mary; I've found curiosity in many things and have always enjoyed the wondering process my mind can take. Curiosity, wonderment, imagination are some of the most wonderful things that we experience, being not only productive but probably essential, and really add something of great beauty to life. I am not advocating the closure of doors; the possibilites are always there (in an ironic sense, our inability to know certainty keeps the wonder alive). What I am saying is that it is most beneficial to only ascribe a degree of truth to an idea that is warranted by the only objective measure we have: the evidence. Every idea must merit its status any idea must be allowed to fall accordingly. It's the only way we will be able to best understand our lives, which we must before we can best manage them. Your example of the pet behavior is a completely valid question that we should strive to understand to which we could easily apply science. And, you are right that outright dismissing such a phenomenon would be to discard some of that wonderment curiosity that is so important in our lives. The same goes for your description of the coastal animals who seemed to presage the Indian Ocean tsunami, which I had read wondered about. Reliable conclusions have existed through out our existence. That is the reason we survived. Those that reached unreliable conclusions can be counted among the extinct. That's exactly true well said. Science has it's place but equally the wonder of the mystics also need to be acknowledged. I don't think science can or does degrade wonder. It revels thrives in it, and it does slowly chip away at what exactly we can so easily wonder about, often to only reveal more mysteries than we began with, but it does not close doors to what it cannot or has not explained, or even to what it has explained. It is merely a method that allows us to choose the best explanations given our current knowledge. There will always be reason to wonder. Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Gustl...I'm not the "Michael" to whom you have addressed your words, but that doesn't matter. Your words ring true...true...with me nonetheless. Thank you. To "Michael" and "Bob" and whomever has decided to be strictly "scientific"in the sense thatthe "scientific"might exclude the "mystical" or, more specifically, what can only be verified subjectively: Will you doubt that everything is connected? If you will, enjoy your masturbation. If you will not, then what might be the implications? What might be not only the probabilities but also the possibilities? Our world is constantly subjected...subjected...to the objective for purely, I am convinced,selfish purposes. But, if you have accepted that all is connected, then the objective must be an illusion. So now what? I don't know...but I want to know. The objective path has led our world to ruin. Consequently, I am personally disinclined to allow my personal history to be a repeat of this unexamined history.Whether or not anyone else does, somehow I don't believe it really matters...because we are all connected, not just with each other, but with every star and the void that engulfs them, not just now, but forever now. Perhaps one day our schools will devote a portion of the curriculum to that whereby we are all connected. Classrooms of extreme quietude, whereby each individual is awakened in meditation. Perhaps these classrooms exist already, as I'm sure they must. When they become public, however, then we will know thatwhat is true has broken through the void in some fundamental way perhaps never known throughout the universe. Maybe that will happen here on planet earth...maybe it is happening alreadyelsewhere, although somehow I doubt it because when it does, the universe will have somehow fundamentally changed and become something it has never been before, another step in the real evolution, the evolutionof consciousness and curiosity. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: "Gustl Steiner-Zehender" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Michael Friebel" biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Hallo Michael, I may be running on assumptions here and you appear to me to be running on some assumptions, but I do realize that assumptions are only that and nothing more and may be false. Perhaps it is just a matter of definitions or perception. I will give both of us the benefit of the doubt. :o) I was born into, raised as and am presently a member of a mystical religion, that being Friends (Quakers). We had a schism back in the early 1800's here in the states and my family ended up on the "Hicksite" side of the thing. Outwardly conservative and inwardly liberal. Hicks once stated the following: "Now I want these things to sink deep into the heart of every age, sex and condition. Be willing to investigate for yourselves; don't mind what I say, or what any one else may say, but bring things home to the truth in your own bosoms; turn them over and over, and see if there is not something in them worthy of preservation--and if there is not, leave them. I say, I want you to investigate for yourselves; for we have that liberty, in this land of liberty. We have a right to think for ourselves, about what we know to be the truth in ourselves, and nothing but the truth...Oh! then, that we may become willing to turn inward to what the light makes manifest...Whatsoever is wrong is reproved by this light, and all things that are reproveable we know, for they are made manifest by the light; clearly so. And it is reasonable to conclude that without light, nothing can be made manifest. But when we come into the light of the Lord, all things will be made manifest, when the mind is willing, and the heart is disposed to receive God in the way of his coming. I feel earnest in my desires for us, that we may this evening lay these things properly to heart. I hope you will take these things home, my friends, and not be hasty in deciding, but turn them over in your minds, and if you can find any thing in them, well, and if not leave them." (Gould 1830) If this isn't the mystical equivalent of the scientific method then I will eat my hat (either straw or felt). It uses operational terms, allows for experimental duplication and repeatability, calls for emperical observation and induction, uses analytic-synthetic thinking, allows for prediction and falsification and the conclusions come from a "scientific" public consensus of truth. While all of this is not readily observable from the small paragraph above, it is if one takes the time to get acquainted with Friends beliefs (or those of other branches of mystics). You should be able to get the sense of it from the paragraph above though. But brother, we haven't defined out terms. You claim mystical experience is
