[Biofuel] straw cultured potato
ever see potatoes grown in a foot of straw? They claimed no digging to harvest tubers. Since the roots go down do they decide to fruit in the first foot of root? Probably since next years potato comes from the fruit. Kirk Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The effects of greening rooftops are quite well known, there are enough examples for quite a clear picture to have emerged, showing a wide range of benefits and no apparent downside. The idea of greening rooftops could hit the big time any time, like the local food movement that's sweeping the world (and the media) right now. The foundation for that was already there, with the CSAs, city farms, local markets, community gardens of the last 30 years, then the Slow Food movement and so on. The work had been done, it was just waiting to happen. Greening rooftops could also be just waiting to happen. There's obviously a lot of synergy with the local food boom. The Journey to Forever garden at our first hq at the Beach House on Lantau Island in Hong Kong got me thinking a lot about rooftop gardens. We grew pumpkins and stuff in big baskets up old bamboo ladders onto the cement roofs of two outbuildings there that were hellish hot inside during summer, definitely a good thing to do. The whole garden was built on cement, or through it. I removed the cement for the sq foot beds and so on, but there was eight feet of sea sand mixed with builders rubble underneath (pre-plastic, 1960s rubble). Only one person ever asked where we got the soil. We made it, 12" deep, on top of the sand. Our tomatoes were 12 feet tall and very productive, everything was productive - we grew potatoes and sweet potatoes in bathtubs, and sweet potatoes on top of bare cement (one was 2 ft long). Large variety of crops. A whole ecology moved in, birds and bees and bugs that you don't find on beaches, frogs, butterflies, we found a small watersnake living in our pond (another bathtub). That small space produced a lot of great food! http://journeytoforever.org/garden.html Organic gardening: Journey to Forever organic garden http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con.html No ground? Use containers Etc. It wasn't that different from a rooftop garden. For anything more than an outhouse you need to know what loads roofs can take and so on, how much wet soil weighs, figure out water supply and drainage. But if it's built for people to walk on you should be able to green it effectively in one way or another. I'd like to have more and better resources at Journey to Forever on rooftop gardening. I'll do a search when I get the time. Any suggestions welcome. Best Keith >A grass roof would be evaporatively cooled. Need less air >conditioning. Average attic in summer is a sauna. > >Zeke Yewdall wrote: > > > > > I don't see cows being kept on rooftops. Cow-sized staircases would just > > consume too much space! But I do see small dairy operations within easy > > walking distance of city centres. > > > > Dawie > > > >LOL. Probably not cows. But a goat could. And chickens. Milk and >eggs. They eat the scraps from the rooftop garden and turn it back >into protein for the humans and fertilizer for the garden. We need to >start seeing our roofs as something other than wasteland helping >generate a heat island and view it as a land area that we could use >for food and energy production. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Time is running out to Save Raw Almonds!
There was a whole write up recently about "urban farming"; as soon as I come off my latest energy binge I'll look for it. -Mike > Hi Dawie > >>Keith has emphasized before that meaningful food production doesn't >>require huge tracts of land. It is amazing what can be done in very >>small spaces. >> >>Modern cities contain vast amounts of wasted land, but the resulting >>pattern is one that attracts too much moving about of people and >>stuff for non-food-production purposes. There's a vicious circle >>with too much roadway and parking generating an insatiable need for >>more roadway and parking. I'm proposing that urban areas become a >>lot tighter, though fragmented into smaller pockets, somewhat like >>the cities of medieval Europe, so that the greatest proportion of >>non-food-production functions are best supported by a >>pedestrian-based local economy. In practice, the typical "new-world" >>city should be steered to develop into twenty-odd (depending on the >>size of the city) "mini-cities" separated by farmland. > > Or interpenetrated by farmland, in many shapes and forms, but > sometimes just plain farmland. Japanese cities have patches of > farmland throughout, a small field here and there, some of them not > so small, with occasional clumps of fields, they're everywhere. Not > just veggies, rice and soybeans and so on too. There are allotments > as well. People don't notice them much but they produce a lot of > food. There's still quite a lot of waste ground too, empty lots and > all the usable bits and pieces of ground you start seeing around the > place when you begin to take some notice. > >>A lot of that farmland is currently the >>supposedly decorative gardens of sprawling suburbs. > > And/or allotments and so on, and quite a lot of suburban folks raise > some vegetables. > >>The more I get into it, though, the more I realise how much food can >>be produced even in the densely built city areas, > > There's room for it, once you start thinking that way you see it > everywhere. > >>especially in the upper-storey courtyards that result almost >>inevitably from the desire to use available space most effectively >>while maintaining decent daylight and ventilation. This applies as >>much to small livestock as to crops. >> >>I don't see cows being kept on rooftops. Cow-sized staircases would >>just consume too much space! But I do see small dairy operations >>within easy walking distance of city centres. > > It's amazing where people manage to keep poultry and pigs. > > Food for cities is not that big a problem eh? Mainly an attitude > problem, and the attitude's changing. > > Best > > Keith > > > >>Dawie >> >>- Original Message >>From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>Sent: Thursday, 14 June, 2007 5:41:57 AM >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Time is running out to Save Raw Almonds! >> >>hi Keith, >> >>you said "Large-scale animal and animal products production has no future >> and >> > has a disgusting past without any merit. There is no place for "the >> > industry". There is plenty of place for unpasteurised real milk and >> > the healthy people who drink it." I agree, they are in it for the >>money (which we do need) with less regard for the environmental >>footprint, and lacking the passion to provide good food to the >>people. However, could you elaborate on the size of scale you are >>refering to in the above statement. I mean there are hundreds of >>millions of people who live in cities that cant farm or produce for >>themselves. Ultimately, in the end I believe the smaller and more >>localised the farm is to its consumption destination, the better. It >>reduces transport costs, packaging and ultimately energy demand. >>Individual small farms to produce food for themselves and the >>community is the best option if practiced responsibily with the >>social and environmental issues in mind. Having said this what are >>your thoughts for providing food to the cities. >> >>best >> >>Joshua >> >> >> >> > Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> > Hello Andres >> > >> > >I am affraid the pasteurization process is necessary because to eat >> > >untreated foods is DANGEROUS for humans. >> > >> > Not true. Please see my previous reply and check the references there. >> > >> > >The larger the production scale the >> > >higher the risk. >> > >> > True. >> > >> > >The living parts of foods are oftenly poisonous for us >> > >like bacteria. >> > >> > Not necessarily so. Look at your previous statement about the >> > production scale. The inverse is equally true: the smaller the scale >> > the lower the risk - in other words small-scale local production, >> > such as on CSA farms. This can be and usually is safe and >> > high-quality. Traditional agricultural systems all had and have good >> > solutions to these problems. But modern large-scale production has no >> > such answers. >> > >> > >Thanks to god there is still a lot of vegetables we can eat >> >
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
I wonder if you could look at the carbon output and extrapolate backwards to get a rough idea what the cost is. Interesting side note: I was at the bus stop in my neighborhood, which is for lack of a better word, one of the more exclusive suburbs in the country, mosty due to its proximity to DC. Many people are tearing down their small houses and building huge ones, or substantially remodeling what they have. I fell into conversation with one neighbor doing the latter. As the conversation started on the subject of the cost of gas and energy in general, I asked if they'd thought about solar for power, heat and hot water, a multi-fuel furnace - such as a Tarm and extra insulation, etc. They'd thought about it, but realized that the $50,000 or so for the above was about the cost of granite counters and Sub Zero appliances in the kitchen, and after all, this was their dream house - wasn't it? "High efficiency" gas heating and cooling along with better windows are as far as most people here will go. > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18995.html > [biofuel] The Railroading of Amtrak > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg12055.html > [biofuel] Subsidizing Trains, Planes And Automobiles > > (The whole discussion thread is linked at the end of the page.) > > Trains are a great way to travel, even better than ships. And the > best way to commute. > >>Like Keith stated so succinctly in a prior post, >>the USA isn't addicted to oil, it is addicted to >>waste. > > I didn't check it and I didn't download it either, but somebody was > saying that people bandied the figure around a lot these days that > the US had 5% of the world's population and uses 25% of the energy, > but he'd seen data years ago that the US used 45% of the world's > energy and he didn't think it had shrunk. > > I got to wondering what the figure might be if you included the full > energy costs of the war in Iraq, for instance, or the full energy > costs of the Empire's global military establishment, as someone like > Chalmers Johnson might put it, along with all the support stuff that > goes with it. For starters. What's the global energy bill of the US? > (Or am I looking at it all wrong?) > > I don't suppose we'd ever find out. I'm not very surprised when > energy data turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors. That's been the > case with oil reserves for a long time, especially with what Matt > Simmons has had to say about it more recently. Nobody really knows, > but that doesn't stop them lying about it. > > Whatever, a lot of list members have talked about the waste of energy > in the US. Hakan, for instance, who'd know, said the US was IIRC > about 30 years behind Sweden with energy efficient buildings. The > section on world energy use at our website (which might be where the > 25% came from) says "The average American uses twice as much energy > as the average European or Japanese and 155 times as much as the > average Nepalese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per > head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use > twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it." > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_404.html#energyuse > > I wouldn't say the Japanese are exactly paragons of energy > efficiency. In some ways yes, with solar and K-trucks, for instance, > but they've got a long way to go. There are way too many cars here, > K-trucks notwithstanding, recycling's good in some sectors, but not > much reduce, very little re-use, too much needless consumption - a > popular book here tells you all sorts of ways to throw things away > more creatively (which doesn't necessarily mean being more > eco-friendly about it). > > Still, millions of people ride their bicycles to the rail station > every day to go to work. Japanese trains are great! > > From a previous message: > >>[Japanese] Foreign Minister Taro Aso pointed out Friday that Japan's >>oil efficiency is eight times better than that of China, quoting >>data from International Energy Agency, an energy policy adviser to >>26 industrialized countries. >> >>"I have told (Chinese Foreign Minister) Li Zhaoxing that China would >>be able to curb its oil consumption to one-eighth (of the current >>level) if (it) becomes like us," Aso said when asked to comment on >>China's energy problems. > > So China's more wasteful than the US? > > I wonder if China will take that to mean that they can cut > seven-eighths of their oil consumption if they do it like Japan or > that they'll be able to produce eight times as much with the amount > of oil they're using now. > > Best > > Keith > > >>Dawie Coetzee wrote: >> > This from another group: >> > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/message/10256 >> > >> >> Fuel-sipping trains >> >> June 11, 2007 >> >> >> >> >> >> With energy prices high and likely to go higher in the years ahead, >> >> it would make sense for the nation to embrace a transportation >> >> pol
Re: [Biofuel] straw cultured potato
Kirk, Last year I followed a friend's suggestion a friend's of growing potatoes "in a cage". I planted some potatoes in the soil and put a wire cage around each plant. As the potato plants grew, I added leaf mold to the cage. I could then simply remove the cage, pull back the leaf mold and the potatoes would be had w/o digging/bruising. I noticed that the plants I grew in the ground, w/o cages, were healthier than the caged plants. They also had less insect damage to their leaves. I had to water the caged plants. Harvesting was easier, but the caged plants produced noticeably smaller potatoes. I know this is not exactly what you are asking about, but I can't help but wonder if the difference between the caged and the soil-grown potato plants came down to plant nutrition; living soil vs. artificial growth medium. The caged potatoes were planted in soil, and the leaf mold had some nutrients to offer. I don't think it compares to the living, compost-enriched soil my "dirt potatoes" were grown in. I think that straw would also come up short of living soil. Tom - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 6:22 AM Subject: [Biofuel] straw cultured potato ever see potatoes grown in a foot of straw? They claimed no digging to harvest tubers. Since the roots go down do they decide to fruit in the first foot of root? Probably since next years potato comes from the fruit. Kirk Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The effects of greening rooftops are quite well known, there are enough examples for quite a clear picture to have emerged, showing a wide range of benefits and no apparent downside. The idea of greening rooftops could hit the big time any time, like the local food movement that's sweeping the world (and the media) right now. The foundation for that was already there, with the CSAs, city farms, local markets, community gardens of the last 30 years, then the Slow Food movement and so on. The work had been done, it was just waiting to happen. Greening rooftops could also be just waiting to happen. There's obviously a lot of synergy with the local food boom. The Journey to Forever garden at our first hq at the Beach House on Lantau Island in Hong Kong got me thinking a lot about rooftop gardens. We grew pumpkins and stuff in big baskets up old bamboo ladders onto the cement roofs of two outbuildings there that were hellish hot inside during summer, definitely a good thing to do. The whole garden was built on cement, or through it. I removed the cement for the sq foot beds and so on, but there was eight feet of sea sand mixed with builders rubble underneath (pre-plastic, 1960s rubble). Only one person ever asked where we got the soil. We made it, 12" deep, on top of the sand. Our tomatoes were 12 feet tall and very productive, everything was productive - we grew potatoes and sweet potatoes in bathtubs, and sweet potatoes on top of bare cement (one was 2 ft long). Large variety of crops. A whole ecology moved in, birds and bees and bugs that you don't find on beaches, frogs, butterflies, we found a small watersnake living in our pond (another bathtub). That small space produced a lot of great food! http://journeytoforever.org/garden.html Organic gardening: Journey to Forever organic garden http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con.html No ground? Use containers Etc. It wasn't that different from a rooftop garden. For anything more than an outhouse you need to know what loads roofs can take and so on, how much wet soil weighs, figure out water supply and drainage. But if it's built for people to walk on you should be able to green it effectively in one way or another. I'd like to have more and better resources at Journey to Forever on rooftop gardening. I'll do a search when I get the time. Any suggestions welcome. Best Keith >A grass roof would be evaporatively cooled. Need less air >conditioning. Average attic in summer is a sauna. > >Zeke Yewdall wrote: > > > > > I don't see cows being kept on rooftops. Cow-sized staircases would just > > consume too much space! But I do see small dairy operations within easy > > walking distance of city centres. > > > > Dawie > > > >LOL. Probably not cows. But a goat could. And chickens. Milk and >eggs. They eat the scraps from the rooftop garden and turn it back >into protein for the humans and fertilizer for the garden. We need to >start seeing our roofs as something other than wasteland helping >generate a heat island and view it as a land area that we could use >for food and energy production. __
Re: [Biofuel] straw cultured potato
That's how we always planted them. Maybe more like 6" of straw. The actual pototatos were planted about 4" deep in the dirt, then after they came up, the straw was put on. At the end of the year, you could pull the straw back and the potatoes would be sitting mostly right on top of the dirt. So, they were definitely growing in dirt, but the potatoes formed at the very top of it. Z On 6/15/07, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Kirk, > Last year I followed a friend's suggestion a friend's of growing > potatoes "in a cage". I planted some potatoes in the soil and put a wire > cage around each plant. As the potato plants grew, I added leaf mold to the > cage. I could then simply remove the cage, pull back the leaf mold and the > potatoes would be had w/o digging/bruising. > I noticed that the plants I grew in the ground, w/o cages, were > healthier than the caged plants. They also had less insect damage to their > leaves. I had to water the caged plants. Harvesting was easier, but the > caged plants produced noticeably smaller potatoes. > I know this is not exactly what you are asking about, but I can't help > but wonder if the difference between the caged and the soil-grown potato > plants > came down to plant nutrition; living soil vs. artificial growth medium. > The caged potatoes were planted in soil, and the leaf mold had some > nutrients to offer. I don't think it compares to the living, > compost-enriched soil my "dirt potatoes" were grown in. I think that straw > would also come up short of living soil. > Tom > > - Original Message - > From: Kirk McLoren > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 6:22 AM > Subject: [Biofuel] straw cultured potato > > > ever see potatoes grown in a foot of straw? They claimed no digging to > harvest tubers. > Since the roots go down do they decide to fruit in the first foot of root? > Probably since next years potato comes from the fruit. > > Kirk > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
Immediate gratification. That's a large part of why we are in this mess. > Wonder what the payback time of those granite counters and appliances is? > > > > On 6/15/07, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I wonder if you could look at the carbon output and extrapolate >> backwards >> to get a rough idea what the cost is. >> >> Interesting side note: I was at the bus stop in my neighborhood, which >> is >> for lack of a better word, one of the more exclusive suburbs in the >> country, mosty due to its proximity to DC. Many people are tearing down >> their small houses and building huge ones, or substantially remodeling >> what they have. I fell into conversation with one neighbor doing the >> latter. As the conversation started on the subject of the cost of gas >> and >> energy in general, I asked if they'd thought about solar for power, heat >> and hot water, a multi-fuel furnace - such as a Tarm and extra >> insulation, >> etc. They'd thought about it, but realized that the $50,000 or so for >> the >> above was about the cost of granite counters and Sub Zero appliances in >> the kitchen, and after all, this was their dream house - wasn't it? >> >> "High efficiency" gas heating and cooling along with better windows are >> as >> far as most people here will go. >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18995.html >> > [biofuel] The Railroading of Amtrak >> > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg12055.html >> > [biofuel] Subsidizing Trains, Planes And Automobiles >> > >> > (The whole discussion thread is linked at the end of the page.) >> > >> > Trains are a great way to travel, even better than ships. And the >> > best way to commute. >> > >> >>Like Keith stated so succinctly in a prior post, >> >>the USA isn't addicted to oil, it is addicted to >> >>waste. >> > >> > I didn't check it and I didn't download it either, but somebody was >> > saying that people bandied the figure around a lot these days that >> > the US had 5% of the world's population and uses 25% of the energy, >> > but he'd seen data years ago that the US used 45% of the world's >> > energy and he didn't think it had shrunk. >> > >> > I got to wondering what the figure might be if you included the full >> > energy costs of the war in Iraq, for instance, or the full energy >> > costs of the Empire's global military establishment, as someone like >> > Chalmers Johnson might put it, along with all the support stuff that >> > goes with it. For starters. What's the global energy bill of the US? >> > (Or am I looking at it all wrong?) >> > >> > I don't suppose we'd ever find out. I'm not very surprised when >> > energy data turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors. That's been the >> > case with oil reserves for a long time, especially with what Matt >> > Simmons has had to say about it more recently. Nobody really knows, >> > but that doesn't stop them lying about it. >> > >> > Whatever, a lot of list members have talked about the waste of energy >> > in the US. Hakan, for instance, who'd know, said the US was IIRC >> > about 30 years behind Sweden with energy efficient buildings. The >> > section on world energy use at our website (which might be where the >> > 25% came from) says "The average American uses twice as much energy >> > as the average European or Japanese and 155 times as much as the >> > average Nepalese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per >> > head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use >> > twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it." >> > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_404.html#energyuse >> > >> > I wouldn't say the Japanese are exactly paragons of energy >> > efficiency. In some ways yes, with solar and K-trucks, for instance, >> > but they've got a long way to go. There are way too many cars here, >> > K-trucks notwithstanding, recycling's good in some sectors, but not >> > much reduce, very little re-use, too much needless consumption - a >> > popular book here tells you all sorts of ways to throw things away >> > more creatively (which doesn't necessarily mean being more >> > eco-friendly about it). >> > >> > Still, millions of people ride their bicycles to the rail station >> > every day to go to work. Japanese trains are great! >> > >> > From a previous message: >> > >> >>[Japanese] Foreign Minister Taro Aso pointed out Friday that Japan's >> >>oil efficiency is eight times better than that of China, quoting >> >>data from International Energy Agency, an energy policy adviser to >> >>26 industrialized countries. >> >> >> >>"I have told (Chinese Foreign Minister) Li Zhaoxing that China would >> >>be able to curb its oil consumption to one-eighth (of the current >> >>level) if (it) becomes like us," Aso said when asked to comment on >> >>China's energy problems. >> > >> > So China's more wasteful than the US? >> > >> > I wonder if China will take that to mean that they can cut >> > seven-eighths of th
[Biofuel] Fwd: Researchers eye ancient plant as source of biofuel
Interesting response I got from someone involved in research on using Camilina for biofuels. Seems that he's not talking about regular transesterification, but rather catalytic cracking, just like we do with crude oil? I'm not sure I know enough to even know what he's talking about. I do have to admit that the ability to grow it without irrigation is nice -- because at least out here, anything that has to be irrigated is worthless as a sustainable fuel -- especially as our climate in Colorado is projected to get 7% dryer due to climate change. He has been making biodiesel good enough to run for the last few years in his 2003 VW TDI (from WVO)... so he's not a complete hack to biodiesel either. Anyone have thoughts on what he said? Z --- Zeke, I'm not sold that unsaturated fats make bad biodiesel and that they are prone to oxidation and polymerization. But even if it is true it won't matter for the "green" diesel market. Big oil is increasingly interested in blending natural oils right into crude upstream of the cracking process. In this process, all the double bonds are fully hydrogenated yielding straight hydrocarbons out the back end. This may be the future of plant-based hydrocarbon fuels, making biodiesel just a technological blip. Also, hydrogenation is not too touch of a process, all one needs is a catalyzt (usually zinc, I think) and H2 (which can come from biomass syngas). So camilina may need some breeding, post-processing, or serve as a better feedstock for "green" diesel, but the yields that can be achieved on dry land farming should certainly not be discounted. Another major problem your friend did not mention is the high glycosynylates (poisons) that are in most rapeseeds (it was bred out of canola). The plant stores glycosynylate-producing enzymes and the upstream substrates in separate vacuoles in the seed. If the seed is crushed (or chewed) the two mix, producing a poison to most livestock and humans. This makes the meal from Camillina unuseable for anything but compost (which is actually a pretty good use to keep N,P,K in the soil where the Camillina is grown). But big ag thinks you have to get 6 cents a pound for the meal or it isn't worth growing. So this is something that also needs to be bred out. But, this shouldn't take long. . . as well as changing the oil composition to exactly what we spec! Cheers, Jon On 6/2/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Isn't this what you were growing? What about the iodine value? > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Date: Jun 2, 2007 8:09 AM > Subject: [Biofuel] Researchers eye ancient plant as source of biofuel > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > Um... The Iodine Value of camelina is 144. Even worse than soy. Nice > for making paint, but not for biodiesel. But the US is in denial > about soy and polymerisation so I suppose they might just as well be > in denial about camelina and polymerisation too. Another project > there wants to grow it along the roadsides. You're probably stuck > with B20 with feedstocks like these. > > Iodine Values > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine > > Oxidation and polymerisation > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#oxid > > Best > > Keith > > -- > > http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/17286156.htm > McClatchy Washington Bureau | 05/27/2007 | > ENVIRONMENT > > Researchers eye ancient plant as source of biofuel > > By Les Blumenthal > > McClatchy Newspapers > > WASHINGTON - A plant that flourished in Europe roughly 3,500 years > ago could become a major source of biofuel. > > Researchers say that camelina, planted on millions of acres of > marginal farmland from eastern Washington state to North Dakota, > could help power the nation's drive for cleaner energy. > > "This is the most exciting crop I have seen in my 30 some years in > this field," said Steven Guy, a professor at the University of Idaho > and a crop-management specialist. > > Researchers in Washington state, Oregon and Idaho say the results > from test plantings of camelina are encouraging. So far, the only > farmers who are interested are in Montana, where more than 50,000 > acres of camelina were planted this season. But a buzz is spreading > slowly. > > The story of camelina, though, is about more than just marketing an > ancient crop to solve some of today's problems. It stretches from a > Puget Sound biotech firm that's working to increase camelina yields > by up to 50 percent to Capitol Hill, where lobbyists hope to convince > Congress to cover camelina under the federal crop-insurance program > to reassure skittish farmers. > > Camelina supporters say the plant can grow in more arid conditions, > doesn't require extensive use of expensive fertilizers, herbicides > and pesticides, and can produce more oil from its seeds than other > crops such as canola, by some estimates, for half the price. > > "
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
Zeke Yewdall wrote: > Wonder what the payback time of those granite counters and appliances is? Almost immediate ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit... remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback. On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Zeke Yewdall wrote: > > Wonder what the payback time of those granite counters and appliances is? > > Almost immediate > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > -- Zeke Yewdall Chief Electrical Engineer Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company Cell: 720.352.2508 Office: 303.459.0177 FAX documents to: 720.269.1240 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cosunflower.com CoSEIA Certified Certified BP Solar Installer National Association of Home Builders Quotable Quote "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow, in the dead of winter, war spreading, families dying, the world in danger, I walk the rocky hillside sowing clover." Wendell Berry ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
Wonder what the payback time of those granite counters and appliances is? On 6/15/07, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wonder if you could look at the carbon output and extrapolate backwards > to get a rough idea what the cost is. > > Interesting side note: I was at the bus stop in my neighborhood, which is > for lack of a better word, one of the more exclusive suburbs in the > country, mosty due to its proximity to DC. Many people are tearing down > their small houses and building huge ones, or substantially remodeling > what they have. I fell into conversation with one neighbor doing the > latter. As the conversation started on the subject of the cost of gas and > energy in general, I asked if they'd thought about solar for power, heat > and hot water, a multi-fuel furnace - such as a Tarm and extra insulation, > etc. They'd thought about it, but realized that the $50,000 or so for the > above was about the cost of granite counters and Sub Zero appliances in > the kitchen, and after all, this was their dream house - wasn't it? > > "High efficiency" gas heating and cooling along with better windows are as > far as most people here will go. > > > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18995.html > > [biofuel] The Railroading of Amtrak > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg12055.html > > [biofuel] Subsidizing Trains, Planes And Automobiles > > > > (The whole discussion thread is linked at the end of the page.) > > > > Trains are a great way to travel, even better than ships. And the > > best way to commute. > > > >>Like Keith stated so succinctly in a prior post, > >>the USA isn't addicted to oil, it is addicted to > >>waste. > > > > I didn't check it and I didn't download it either, but somebody was > > saying that people bandied the figure around a lot these days that > > the US had 5% of the world's population and uses 25% of the energy, > > but he'd seen data years ago that the US used 45% of the world's > > energy and he didn't think it had shrunk. > > > > I got to wondering what the figure might be if you included the full > > energy costs of the war in Iraq, for instance, or the full energy > > costs of the Empire's global military establishment, as someone like > > Chalmers Johnson might put it, along with all the support stuff that > > goes with it. For starters. What's the global energy bill of the US? > > (Or am I looking at it all wrong?) > > > > I don't suppose we'd ever find out. I'm not very surprised when > > energy data turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors. That's been the > > case with oil reserves for a long time, especially with what Matt > > Simmons has had to say about it more recently. Nobody really knows, > > but that doesn't stop them lying about it. > > > > Whatever, a lot of list members have talked about the waste of energy > > in the US. Hakan, for instance, who'd know, said the US was IIRC > > about 30 years behind Sweden with energy efficient buildings. The > > section on world energy use at our website (which might be where the > > 25% came from) says "The average American uses twice as much energy > > as the average European or Japanese and 155 times as much as the > > average Nepalese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per > > head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use > > twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it." > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_404.html#energyuse > > > > I wouldn't say the Japanese are exactly paragons of energy > > efficiency. In some ways yes, with solar and K-trucks, for instance, > > but they've got a long way to go. There are way too many cars here, > > K-trucks notwithstanding, recycling's good in some sectors, but not > > much reduce, very little re-use, too much needless consumption - a > > popular book here tells you all sorts of ways to throw things away > > more creatively (which doesn't necessarily mean being more > > eco-friendly about it). > > > > Still, millions of people ride their bicycles to the rail station > > every day to go to work. Japanese trains are great! > > > > From a previous message: > > > >>[Japanese] Foreign Minister Taro Aso pointed out Friday that Japan's > >>oil efficiency is eight times better than that of China, quoting > >>data from International Energy Agency, an energy policy adviser to > >>26 industrialized countries. > >> > >>"I have told (Chinese Foreign Minister) Li Zhaoxing that China would > >>be able to curb its oil consumption to one-eighth (of the current > >>level) if (it) becomes like us," Aso said when asked to comment on > >>China's energy problems. > > > > So China's more wasteful than the US? > > > > I wonder if China will take that to mean that they can cut > > seven-eighths of their oil consumption if they do it like Japan or > > that they'll be able to produce eight times as much with the amount > > of oil they're using now. > > > > Best > > > > Keith > > > > > >>Dawie C
Re: [Biofuel] straw cultured potato
you plant them in the same dirt but they have a foot or more of straw mulch. Pull aside the straw and there are your spuds. Roots are in the soil deeper yet. Kirk Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kirk, Last year I followed a friend's suggestion a friend's of growing potatoes "in a cage". I planted some potatoes in the soil and put a wire cage around each plant. As the potato plants grew, I added leaf mold to the cage. I could then simply remove the cage, pull back the leaf mold and the potatoes would be had w/o digging/bruising. I noticed that the plants I grew in the ground, w/o cages, were healthier than the caged plants. They also had less insect damage to their leaves. I had to water the caged plants. Harvesting was easier, but the caged plants produced noticeably smaller potatoes. I know this is not exactly what you are asking about, but I can't help but wonder if the difference between the caged and the soil-grown potato plants came down to plant nutrition; living soil vs. artificial growth medium. The caged potatoes were planted in soil, and the leaf mold had some nutrients to offer. I don't think it compares to the living, compost-enriched soil my "dirt potatoes" were grown in. I think that straw would also come up short of living soil. Tom - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 6:22 AM Subject: [Biofuel] straw cultured potato ever see potatoes grown in a foot of straw? They claimed no digging to harvest tubers. Since the roots go down do they decide to fruit in the first foot of root? Probably since next years potato comes from the fruit. Kirk Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The effects of greening rooftops are quite well known, there are enough examples for quite a clear picture to have emerged, showing a wide range of benefits and no apparent downside. The idea of greening rooftops could hit the big time any time, like the local food movement that's sweeping the world (and the media) right now. The foundation for that was already there, with the CSAs, city farms, local markets, community gardens of the last 30 years, then the Slow Food movement and so on. The work had been done, it was just waiting to happen. Greening rooftops could also be just waiting to happen. There's obviously a lot of synergy with the local food boom. The Journey to Forever garden at our first hq at the Beach House on Lantau Island in Hong Kong got me thinking a lot about rooftop gardens. We grew pumpkins and stuff in big baskets up old bamboo ladders onto the cement roofs of two outbuildings there that were hellish hot inside during summer, definitely a good thing to do. The whole garden was built on cement, or through it. I removed the cement for the sq foot beds and so on, but there was eight feet of sea sand mixed with builders rubble underneath (pre-plastic, 1960s rubble). Only one person ever asked where we got the soil. We made it, 12" deep, on top of the sand. Our tomatoes were 12 feet tall and very productive, everything was productive - we grew potatoes and sweet potatoes in bathtubs, and sweet potatoes on top of bare cement (one was 2 ft long). Large variety of crops. A whole ecology moved in, birds and bees and bugs that you don't find on beaches, frogs, butterflies, we found a small watersnake living in our pond (another bathtub). That small space produced a lot of great food! http://journeytoforever.org/garden.html Organic gardening: Journey to Forever organic garden http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con.html No ground? Use containers Etc. It wasn't that different from a rooftop garden. For anything more than an outhouse you need to know what loads roofs can take and so on, how much wet soil weighs, figure out water supply and drainage. But if it's built for people to walk on you should be able to green it effectively in one way or another. I'd like to have more and better resources at Journey to Forever on rooftop gardening. I'll do a search when I get the time. Any suggestions welcome. Best Keith >A grass roof would be evaporatively cooled. Need less air >conditioning. Average attic in summer is a sauna. > >Zeke Yewdall wrote: > > > > > I don't see cows being kept on rooftops. Cow-sized staircases would just > > consume too much space! But I do see small dairy operations within easy > > walking distance of city centres. > > > > Dawie > > > >LOL. Probably not cows. But a goat could. And chickens. Milk and >eggs. They eat the scraps from the rooftop garden and turn it back >into protein for the humans and fertilizer for the garden. We need to >start seeing our roofs as something other than wasteland helping >generate a heat island and view it as a land area that we could use >for food and energy production. ___ Bi
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
Zeke Yewdall wrote: > Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit... > remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can > only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback. Nope, I'm talking property flipping. The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger the house, the greater the increase in resale value. Tracking housing costs since the building boom began in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the highest rate of return in investment over time. 5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable for their lots. Fact. ugly but true. Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy stoves (that will never be used) are pretty much a requirement for flipping the property. This is why the cheaper interest rates are available for these purchases, because that money yields the highest return over similar type goods. This trend has been solid, with only a few hiccups for nigh on 60 years, and there is nothing to indicate there will a change anytime soon. Wonder why all this farm land in the Mid Atlantic region of the US (some of the best and most fertile farm land in the world) is all being converted to tract mansions? Because that is the sweet spot for investment. 5k+ sq ft houses garner the lowest interest rates and have the highest resale. No farm can compete with that, in this 'free market' economy. (I'd like to actually see a genuine free market economy someday, I keep hearing about it). I work in Loundon County Va, USA. Loundon Co is *the* textbook example of the worst land managment planning there is. Even the the union of concerned scientists used Loundon Co as their only negative example in the publication The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices. Be that as it may, it's nearly impossible to loose money in this real estate market. Unless, you try to protect and preserve what little arable land is left. Mike Weaver lives in this region, and the neighbors of whom he speaks are everywhere. You'd have to see it. -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] straw cultured potato
>ever see potatoes grown in a foot of straw? They claimed no digging >to harvest tubers. >Since the roots go down do they decide to fruit in the first foot of >root? Probably since next years potato comes from the fruit. > >Kirk I have two small wooden barrels outside the kitchen with potatoes growing in them. They're about 25 litres, straight-sided old barrels with no bottoms, with potatoes planted at the bottom, just dumped on the ground with some straw and leaves and old compost over them, with more added as the stems grew higher. Now one is full, the other nearly full. The plants look great. I'll have two barrels of potatoes. Our potato beds (about 50 metres first crop) are planted on part of the poultry rotation, the seed potatoes laid on the ground and covered, and then more mulch, straw, leaves, "weed" cuts from the banks and so on added on top as the plants grow, until it makes a deep bed. We always get good harvests this way, and the potatoes improve the soil further. It seems it doesn't work with all varieties. Some varieties produce long rhizomes (which bear potatoes) and others have short rhizomes around the seed potato. For deep-mulch potatoes use the long rhizome types. According to the Organic Gardening Discussion List, Yellow Fin, Red Pontiac and all fingerling varieties have extended rhizome formation. All the varieties we've used in Japan have long rhizomes and perform well. Best Keith >Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >The effects of greening rooftops are quite well known, there are >enough examples for quite a clear picture to have emerged, showing a >wide range of benefits and no apparent downside. > >The idea of greening rooftops could hit the big time any time, like >the local food movement that's sweeping the world (and the media) >right now. The foundation for that was already there, with the CSAs, >city farms, local markets, community gardens of the last 30 years, >then the Slow Food movement and so on. The work had been done, it was >just waiting to happen. Greening rooftops could also be just waiting >to happen. There's obviously a lot of synergy with the local food >boom. > >The Journey to Forever garden at our first hq at the Beach House on >Lantau Island in Hong Kong got me thinking a lot about rooftop >gardens. We grew pumpkins and stuff in big baskets up old bamboo >ladders onto the cement roofs of two outbuildings there that were >hellish hot inside during summer, definitely a good thing to do. The >whole garden was built on cement, or through it. I removed the cement >for the sq foot beds and so on, but there was eight feet of sea sand >mixed with builders rubble underneath (pre-plastic, 1960s rubble). >Only one person ever asked where we got the soil. We made it, 12" >deep, on top of the sand. Our tomatoes were 12 feet tall and very >productive, everything was productive - we grew potatoes and sweet >potatoes in bathtubs, and sweet potatoes on top of bare cement (one >was 2 ft long). Large variety of crops. A whole ecology moved in, >birds and bees and bugs that you don't find on beaches, frogs, >butterflies, we found a small watersnake living in our pond (another >bathtub). > >That small space produced a lot of great food! > >http://journeytoforever.org/garden.html >Organic gardening: Journey to Forever organic garden > >http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con.html >No ground? Use containers > >Etc. > >It wasn't that different from a rooftop garden. > >For anything more than an outhouse you need to know what loads roofs >can take and so on, how much wet soil weighs, figure out water supply >and drainage. But if it's built for people to walk on you should be >able to green it effectively in one way or another. > >I'd like to have more and better resources at Journey to Forever on >rooftop gardening. I'll do a search when I get the time. Any >suggestions welcome. > >Best > >Keith > > > >A grass roof would be evaporatively cooled. Need less air > >conditioning. Average attic in summer is a sauna. > > > >Zeke Yewdall wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't see cows being kept on rooftops. Cow-sized staircases would just > > > consume too much space! But I do see small dairy operations within easy > > > walking distance of city centres. > > > > > > Dawie > > > > > > >LOL. Probably not cows. But a goat could. And chickens. Milk and > >eggs. They eat the scraps from the rooftop garden and turn it back > >into protein for the humans and fertilizer for the garden. We need to > >start seeing our roofs as something other than wasteland helping > >generate a heat island and view it as a land area that we could use > >for food and energy production. > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
Uuugh. Forgot about property flipping. But now that you mention it, they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for the lot. Ack. Our society is nuts. This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out. :) Z On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Zeke Yewdall wrote: > > Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit... > > remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can > > only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback. > > Nope, I'm talking property flipping. > > The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger > the house, the greater the increase in resale value. > > Tracking housing costs since the building boom began > in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's > correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the > highest rate of return in investment over time. > 5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are > decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable > for their lots. Fact. ugly but true. > > Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy > stoves (that will never be used) are pretty > much a requirement for flipping the property. > > This is why the cheaper interest rates are available for > these purchases, because that money yields the highest > return over similar type goods. > > This trend has been solid, with only a few hiccups for > nigh on 60 years, and there is nothing to indicate there > will a change anytime soon. > > Wonder why all this farm land in the Mid Atlantic > region of the US (some of the best and most fertile > farm land in the world) is all being converted to tract > mansions? Because that is the sweet spot for investment. > 5k+ sq ft houses garner the lowest interest rates and > have the highest resale. No farm can compete with that, > in this 'free market' economy. (I'd like to actually > see a genuine free market economy someday, I keep > hearing about it). > > I work in Loundon County Va, USA. Loundon Co is *the* > textbook example of the worst land managment planning > there is. Even the the union of concerned scientists > used Loundon Co as their only negative example in the > publication The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices. > > Be that as it may, it's nearly impossible to loose money > in this real estate market. Unless, you try to protect > and preserve what little arable land is left. > > Mike Weaver lives in this region, and the neighbors of > whom he speaks are everywhere. You'd have to see it. > > -- > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > -- Zeke Yewdall Chief Electrical Engineer Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company Cell: 720.352.2508 Office: 303.459.0177 FAX documents to: 720.269.1240 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cosunflower.com CoSEIA Certified Certified BP Solar Installer National Association of Home Builders Quotable Quote "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow, in the dead of winter, war spreading, families dying, the world in danger, I walk the rocky hillside sowing clover." Wendell Berry ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] straw cultured potato
Kirk, Gotcha I've already planted my spuds for this year (including sweet potatoes) the old fashioned way . mounding the dirt around the plant. Maybe the less-than-favorable results I got last year was because I used leaf mold rather than straw. Tom - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] straw cultured potato you plant them in the same dirt but they have a foot or more of straw mulch. Pull aside the straw and there are your spuds. Roots are in the soil deeper yet. Kirk Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kirk, Last year I followed a friend's suggestion a friend's of growing potatoes "in a cage". I planted some potatoes in the soil and put a wire cage around each plant. As the potato plants grew, I added leaf mold to the cage. I could then simply remove the cage, pull back the leaf mold and the potatoes would be had w/o digging/bruising. I noticed that the plants I grew in the ground, w/o cages, were healthier than the caged plants. They also had less insect damage to their leaves. I had to water the caged plants. Harvesting was easier, but the caged plants produced noticeably smaller potatoes. I know this is not exactly what you are asking about, but I can't help but wonder if the difference between the caged and the soil-grown potato plants came down to plant nutrition; living soil vs. artificial growth medium. The caged potatoes were planted in soil, and the leaf mold had some nutrients to offer. I don't think it compares to the living, compost-enriched soil my "dirt potatoes" were grown in. I think that straw would also come up short of living soil. Tom - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 6:22 AM Subject: [Biofuel] straw cultured potato ever see potatoes grown in a foot of straw? They claimed no digging to harvest tubers. Since the roots go down do they decide to fruit in the first foot of root? Probably since next years potato comes from the fruit. Kirk Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The effects of greening rooftops are quite well known, there are enough examples for quite a clear picture to have emerged, showing a wide range of benefits and no apparent downside. The idea of greening rooftops could hit the big time any time, like the local food movement that's sweeping the world (and the media) right now. The foundation for that was already there, with the CSAs, city farms, local markets, community gardens of the last 30 years, then the Slow Food movement and so on. The work had been done, it was just waiting to happen. Greening rooftops could also be just waiting to happen. There's obviously a lot of synergy with the local food boom. The Journey to Forever garden at our first hq at the Beach House on Lantau Island in Hong Kong got me thinking a lot about rooftop gardens. We grew pumpkins and stuff in big baskets up old bamboo ladders onto the cement roofs of two outbuildings there that were hellish hot inside during summer, definitely a good thing to do. The whole garden was built on cement, or through it. I removed the cement for the sq foot beds and so on, but there was eight feet of sea sand mixed with builders rubble underneath (pre-plastic, 1960s rubble). Only one person ever asked where we got the soil. We made it, 12" deep, on top of the sand. Our tomatoes were 12 feet tall and very productive, everything was productive - we grew potatoes and sweet potatoes in bathtubs, and sweet potatoes on top of bare cement (one was 2 ft long). Large variety of crops. A whole ecology moved in, birds and bees and bugs that you don't find on beaches, frogs, butterflies, we found a small watersnake living in our pond (another bathtub). That small space produced a lot of great food! http://journeytoforever.org/garden.html Organic gardening: Journey to Forever organic garden http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con.html No ground? Use containers Etc. It wasn't that different from a rooftop garden. For anything more than an outhouse you need to know what loads roofs can take and so on, how much wet soil weighs, figure out water supply and drainage. But if it's built for people to walk on you should be able to green it effectively in one way or another. I'd like to have more and better resources at Journey to Forever on rooftop gardening. I'll
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
Hey Yewdall, I DID MY PART when I traded in my Escalade for a Lexus SUV hybrid for the commute downtown. I didn't HAVE to spend the extra money BUT I DID because it was the right thing to do. Now get off my back and let me enjoy my lifestyle. > Uuugh. Forgot about property flipping. But now that you mention it, > they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for > the lot. Ack. Our society is nuts. > > This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the > piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it > keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out. :) > > Z > > On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Zeke Yewdall wrote: >> > Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit... >> > remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can >> > only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback. >> >> Nope, I'm talking property flipping. >> >> The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger >> the house, the greater the increase in resale value. >> >> Tracking housing costs since the building boom began >> in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's >> correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the >> highest rate of return in investment over time. >> 5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are >> decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable >> for their lots. Fact. ugly but true. >> >> Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy >> stoves (that will never be used) are pretty >> much a requirement for flipping the property. >> >> This is why the cheaper interest rates are available for >> these purchases, because that money yields the highest >> return over similar type goods. >> >> This trend has been solid, with only a few hiccups for >> nigh on 60 years, and there is nothing to indicate there >> will a change anytime soon. >> >> Wonder why all this farm land in the Mid Atlantic >> region of the US (some of the best and most fertile >> farm land in the world) is all being converted to tract >> mansions? Because that is the sweet spot for investment. >> 5k+ sq ft houses garner the lowest interest rates and >> have the highest resale. No farm can compete with that, >> in this 'free market' economy. (I'd like to actually >> see a genuine free market economy someday, I keep >> hearing about it). >> >> I work in Loundon County Va, USA. Loundon Co is *the* >> textbook example of the worst land managment planning >> there is. Even the the union of concerned scientists >> used Loundon Co as their only negative example in the >> publication The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices. >> >> Be that as it may, it's nearly impossible to loose money >> in this real estate market. Unless, you try to protect >> and preserve what little arable land is left. >> >> Mike Weaver lives in this region, and the neighbors of >> whom he speaks are everywhere. You'd have to see it. >> >> -- >> >> ___ >> Biofuel mailing list >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> messages): >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> > > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > Chief Electrical Engineer > Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company > Cell: 720.352.2508 > Office: 303.459.0177 > FAX documents to: 720.269.1240 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.cosunflower.com > > CoSEIA Certified > Certified BP Solar Installer > National Association of Home Builders > > Quotable Quote > > "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow, > in the dead of winter, war spreading, > families dying, the world in danger, > I walk the rocky hillside > sowing clover." > > Wendell Berry > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
LOL. I bet your Escalade was 3 years old, and you didn't want to be seen in that old a car anyway. But, I applaud getting the Lexus instead of just a newer Escalade. :) On 6/15/07, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hey Yewdall, > > I DID MY PART when I traded in my Escalade for a Lexus SUV hybrid for the > commute downtown. I didn't HAVE to spend the extra money BUT I DID > because it was the right thing to do. Now get off my back and let me enjoy > my lifestyle. > > > Uuugh. Forgot about property flipping. But now that you mention it, > > they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for > > the lot. Ack. Our society is nuts. > > > > This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the > > piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it > > keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out. :) > > > > Z > > > > On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Zeke Yewdall wrote: > >> > Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit... > >> > remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can > >> > only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback. > >> > >> Nope, I'm talking property flipping. > >> > >> The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger > >> the house, the greater the increase in resale value. > >> > >> Tracking housing costs since the building boom began > >> in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's > >> correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the > >> highest rate of return in investment over time. > >> 5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are > >> decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable > >> for their lots. Fact. ugly but true. > >> > >> Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy > >> stoves (that will never be used) are pretty > >> much a requirement for flipping the property. > >> > >> This is why the cheaper interest rates are available for > >> these purchases, because that money yields the highest > >> return over similar type goods. > >> > >> This trend has been solid, with only a few hiccups for > >> nigh on 60 years, and there is nothing to indicate there > >> will a change anytime soon. > >> > >> Wonder why all this farm land in the Mid Atlantic > >> region of the US (some of the best and most fertile > >> farm land in the world) is all being converted to tract > >> mansions? Because that is the sweet spot for investment. > >> 5k+ sq ft houses garner the lowest interest rates and > >> have the highest resale. No farm can compete with that, > >> in this 'free market' economy. (I'd like to actually > >> see a genuine free market economy someday, I keep > >> hearing about it). > >> > >> I work in Loundon County Va, USA. Loundon Co is *the* > >> textbook example of the worst land managment planning > >> there is. Even the the union of concerned scientists > >> used Loundon Co as their only negative example in the > >> publication The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices. > >> > >> Be that as it may, it's nearly impossible to loose money > >> in this real estate market. Unless, you try to protect > >> and preserve what little arable land is left. > >> > >> Mike Weaver lives in this region, and the neighbors of > >> whom he speaks are everywhere. You'd have to see it. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> ___ > >> Biofuel mailing list > >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >> > >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >> > >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > >> messages): > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Zeke Yewdall > > Chief Electrical Engineer > > Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company > > Cell: 720.352.2508 > > Office: 303.459.0177 > > FAX documents to: 720.269.1240 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > www.cosunflower.com > > > > CoSEIA Certified > > Certified BP Solar Installer > > National Association of Home Builders > > > > Quotable Quote > > > > "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow, > > in the dead of winter, war spreading, > > families dying, the world in danger, > > I walk the rocky hillside > > sowing clover." > > > > Wendell Berry > > > > ___ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
Zeke Yewdall wrote: > Uuugh. Forgot about property flipping. But now that you mention it, > they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for > the lot. Ack. Our society is nuts. Our society is suicidal. Nuts indeed! I though Boulder had more sense. I've read good stuff about the planning commissions out there, this is sad to hear. > This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the > piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it > keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out. :) Indeed. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
Well, boulder has alot of good things -- great public transit, bike trails, greenspace. And they do think about planning, which is more than I can say for many places. But because they are surrounded by open space that can't be built on (a good thing), and they have also historically made it hard to do high density living (even having a legal rentable carriage house in the backyard is hard), there's not enough housing, which drives the prices way up, and makes the traffic horrible for a town its size because alot of people commute in -- either because they can't afford anything in town, or because there is nothing available. The newest developments in town are doing high density dwelling, finally -- mixed use with shops below, and apartments above. But it took a while. There are a zillion prius's (prii?) in boulder, but I'd also never seen that many $40,000 SUV's till I moved to Boulder. Z On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Zeke Yewdall wrote: > > Uuugh. Forgot about property flipping. But now that you mention it, > > they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for > > the lot. Ack. Our society is nuts. > > Our society is suicidal. Nuts indeed! > > I though Boulder had more sense. I've read good stuff about > the planning commissions out there, this is sad to hear. > > > This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the > > piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it > > keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out. :) > > Indeed. > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > -- Zeke Yewdall Chief Electrical Engineer Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company Cell: 720.352.2508 Office: 303.459.0177 FAX documents to: 720.269.1240 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cosunflower.com CoSEIA Certified Certified BP Solar Installer National Association of Home Builders Quotable Quote "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow, in the dead of winter, war spreading, families dying, the world in danger, I walk the rocky hillside sowing clover." Wendell Berry ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains
Actually 2 years - but the ashtray was full and power carpet wasn't working. > LOL. I bet your Escalade was 3 years old, and you didn't want to be > seen in that old a car anyway. But, I applaud getting the Lexus > instead of just a newer Escalade. :) > > On 6/15/07, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Hey Yewdall, >> >> I DID MY PART when I traded in my Escalade for a Lexus SUV hybrid for >> the >> commute downtown. I didn't HAVE to spend the extra money BUT I DID >> because it was the right thing to do. Now get off my back and let me >> enjoy >> my lifestyle. >> >> > Uuugh. Forgot about property flipping. But now that you mention it, >> > they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for >> > the lot. Ack. Our society is nuts. >> > >> > This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the >> > piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it >> > keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out. :) >> > >> > Z >> > >> > On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Zeke Yewdall wrote: >> >> > Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit... >> >> > remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can >> >> > only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback. >> >> >> >> Nope, I'm talking property flipping. >> >> >> >> The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger >> >> the house, the greater the increase in resale value. >> >> >> >> Tracking housing costs since the building boom began >> >> in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's >> >> correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the >> >> highest rate of return in investment over time. >> >> 5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are >> >> decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable >> >> for their lots. Fact. ugly but true. >> >> >> >> Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy >> >> stoves (that will never be used) are pretty >> >> much a requirement for flipping the property. >> >> >> >> This is why the cheaper interest rates are available for >> >> these purchases, because that money yields the highest >> >> return over similar type goods. >> >> >> >> This trend has been solid, with only a few hiccups for >> >> nigh on 60 years, and there is nothing to indicate there >> >> will a change anytime soon. >> >> >> >> Wonder why all this farm land in the Mid Atlantic >> >> region of the US (some of the best and most fertile >> >> farm land in the world) is all being converted to tract >> >> mansions? Because that is the sweet spot for investment. >> >> 5k+ sq ft houses garner the lowest interest rates and >> >> have the highest resale. No farm can compete with that, >> >> in this 'free market' economy. (I'd like to actually >> >> see a genuine free market economy someday, I keep >> >> hearing about it). >> >> >> >> I work in Loundon County Va, USA. Loundon Co is *the* >> >> textbook example of the worst land managment planning >> >> there is. Even the the union of concerned scientists >> >> used Loundon Co as their only negative example in the >> >> publication The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices. >> >> >> >> Be that as it may, it's nearly impossible to loose money >> >> in this real estate market. Unless, you try to protect >> >> and preserve what little arable land is left. >> >> >> >> Mike Weaver lives in this region, and the neighbors of >> >> whom he speaks are everywhere. You'd have to see it. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> Biofuel mailing list >> >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >> >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> >> >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> >> messages): >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Zeke Yewdall >> > Chief Electrical Engineer >> > Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company >> > Cell: 720.352.2508 >> > Office: 303.459.0177 >> > FAX documents to: 720.269.1240 >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > www.cosunflower.com >> > >> > CoSEIA Certified >> > Certified BP Solar Installer >> > National Association of Home Builders >> > >> > Quotable Quote >> > >> > "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow, >> > in the dead of winter, war spreading, >> > families dying, the world in danger, >> > I walk the rocky hillside >> > sowing clover." >> > >> > Wendell Berry >> > >> > ___ >> > Biofuel mailing list >> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> > >> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> > >> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> > messages): >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Researchers eye ancient plant as source of biofuel
Hello Zeke >Interesting response Not very. >I got from someone involved in research on using >Camilina for biofuels. Seems that he's not talking about regular >transesterification, but rather catalytic cracking, just like we do >with crude oil? I'm not sure I know enough to even know what he's >talking about. Like most people he's still focused on Big Central industrial-scale production, something like "Sunfuels" or whatever, synfuel, Fischer-Tropsch fuel, it seems to come in a lot of flavours these days. But they're all large-scale, capital-intensive. Big problems need big solutions. Wrong paradigm for biofuels. He's also focused on monocropping, equally industrial, not sustainable. Real farmers don't grow a crop or do chickens or whatever, they farm. Easy to fit a range of energy crops/by-products into the system. There is no "best crop". >I do have to admit that the ability to grow it without irrigation is >nice -- because at least out here, anything that has to be irrigated >is worthless as a sustainable fuel -- especially as our climate in >Colorado is projected to get 7% dryer due to climate change. Organic farmers seldom qualify for drought relief. >He has been making biodiesel good enough to run for the last few years >in his 2003 VW TDI (from WVO)... so he's not a complete hack to >biodiesel either. > >Anyone have thoughts on what he said? See below. >Z > >--- > >Zeke, > >I'm not sold that unsaturated fats make bad biodiesel and that they >are prone to oxidation and polymerization. He didn't read the links I provided. > > Iodine Values > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine > > > > Oxidation and polymerisation > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#oxid In denial, like I said. That unsaturated fats oxidise and polymerise is a fact of chemistry, it's not something you have to be "sold". (Not that I'm selling anything.) Leading US researchers have called for oxidation stability standards for biodiesel (see links above), nobody has tried to debunk them, it's just ignored. It's easier to kowtow to Big Soy, go for B20 to dilute the effect, give lots of sage advice about storage and set a 6-month use-by date. >But even if it is true it >won't matter for the "green" diesel market. Big oil is increasingly >interested in blending natural oils right into crude upstream of the >cracking process. Who cares what big oil's interested in. >In this process, all the double bonds are fully >hydrogenated yielding straight hydrocarbons out the back end. This >may be the future of plant-based hydrocarbon fuels, making biodiesel >just a technological blip. The main problem with biodiesel is that you can't take control of it. The process is too cheap and simple, anyone can do it. All these hippie moonshiners with their backyard biodiesel stills have ruined it for industry. >Also, hydrogenation is not too touch of a >process, all one needs is a catalyzt (usually zinc, I think) and H2 >(which can come from biomass syngas). So camilina may need some >breeding, post-processing, or serve as a better feedstock for "green" >diesel, but the yields that can be achieved on dry land farming should >certainly not be discounted. Another major problem your friend did >not mention is the high glycosynylates (poisons) that are in most >rapeseeds (it was bred out of canola). Actually we dealt with all that here five or six years ago, and since. Yeah, well, Zeke, I get emails like this all the time, but I stopped taking notice. You could show him this, for instance: "How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?" http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch But even if he reads it he won't take it aboard. I'd much rather not to-and-fro this argument here, if you don't mind. Best Keith >The plant stores >glycosynylate-producing enzymes and the upstream substrates in >separate vacuoles in the seed. If the seed is crushed (or chewed) the >two mix, producing a poison to most livestock and humans. This makes >the meal from Camillina unuseable for anything but compost (which is >actually a pretty good use to keep N,P,K in the soil where the >Camillina is grown). But big ag thinks you have to get 6 cents a >pound for the meal or it isn't worth growing. So this is something >that also needs to be bred out. But, this shouldn't take long. . . as >well as changing the oil composition to exactly what we spec! > >Cheers, >Jon > >On 6/2/07, Zeke Yewdall wrote: > > Isn't this what you were growing? What about the iodine value? > > > > -- Forwarded message -- > > From: Keith Addison > > Date: Jun 2, 2007 8:09 AM > > Subject: [Biofuel] Researchers eye ancient plant as source of biofuel > > To: biofuel at sustainablelists.org > > > > > > Um... The Iodine Value of camelina is 144. Even worse than soy. Nice > > for making paint, but not for biodiesel. But the US is in denial > > about soy and polymerisation so I s
