Re: [Biofuel] Loose Change -- new video sheds new light on 9/11

[E. C.]

or check Netflix or whoever for a DVD -- i got a fraud
warning on original post, also; no virus warning, tho.
E. Allen C.

--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> copy the url proper (not the entire hotlink) and
> paste it into your browser.
> 
> Todd Swearingen
> 
> 
> Bob Carr wrote:
> 
> > Hi just went to check this movie out and got a
> warning that it could 
> > be a fraud attempt. Could this be the big brother
> intervention that 
> > other threads have warned about? I wonder?
> > Bob
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > *From:* D. Mindock
> 
> > *To:* Undisclosed-Recipient:;
> 
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:09 PM
> > *Subject:* [Biofuel] Loose Change -- new video
> sheds new light on 9/11
> >
> >  
> >
> > The video brings up new info that I've not
> seen before. The video
> > makers did do a lot of work to pull a lot
> sources together. The 9/11
> > tradgedy was, in spite of all the effort by
> the gov, a bungled
> > job. It doesn't stand up to intelligent
> scrutiny. Now it is our job to
> > get the disgusting thugs out of office and
> into prison. They
> > (Bush/Cheney/et. al.) ARE the real enemy
> combatants. Peace, D. Mindock
> >
> >  
> >
> >  
> >
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > As one who has worked as a language
> interpreter for presidents
> >
> 
> and other
> > dignitaries at the highest levels of
> government, I am deeply
> > committed to strengthening democracy and to
> building a brighter
> > future for all of us. I and many others in the
> research network in
> > which I am involved have found that *a key
> difficulty we face in
> > building a better world is the resistance of
> many people to
> > looking at some of the darker aspects of what
> is going both in the
> > world and inside of ourselves.*
> >
> > I invite you to consider that by avoiding or
> suppressing the
> > darker aspects of life, we only give them room
> to grow even darker
> > and more threatening. By choosing to pull back
> the veil and look
> > directly into the darkness, by choosing to
> face both our
> > individual and collective fears and working to
> transform them, we
> > can improve not only our own lives, but our
> entire world. I
> > present the information below out of a desire
> to invite all of us
> > draw back the veils and awaken to the deeper
> potential that lies
> > within all of us to play an important role in
> transforming our
> > world into a more caring, supportive place to
> live.
> >
> > *If you can give just a few minutes of your
> time, I invite you to
> > open to a crucial piece of what is going on
> behind the veil by
> > watching the most empowering documentary on
> 9/11 that I've ever
> > seen. Titled "Loose Change," this highly
> revealing film is
> > available free on Google Video at the link
> below.* If you have
> > limited time, I cannot recommend highly enough
> going straight to
> > the link now and watching at least 10 to 15
> minutes of this highly
> > revealing documentary. The reliable
> information provided serves as
> > a wake-up call for us all to come together in
> building a better world.
> >
> > *MailScanner has detected a possible fraud
> attempt from
> > "t.ymlp.com" claiming to be*
> >
>
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848
> >
>  -
> Loose Change
> > (82 minutes)
> >
> > Though it ranks as far and above the best
> documentary on 9/11 I've
> > seen, "Loose Change" is not enjoyable to
> watch. Many people find
> > their stomach turning and their mind saying
> "is this true" or "how
> > can this be?" The documentary is meant to be
> disturbing, yet it is
> > equally designed to inspire us to action. Once
> we open to seeing
> > the darkness by educating ourselves, we begin
> to take power back
> > into our own hands both individually and
> collectively, and can
> > then work together to create more balance and
> harmony in our world.
> >
> > 
> >
> > With gratitude and very best wishes,
> > Fred Burks for the *MailScanner has detected a
> possible fraud
> > attempt from "t.ymlp.com" claiming to be*
> WantToKnow.info Team
> >
> 
> > Former language interpreter
> >
> 
> for Presidents
> > Bush and Clinton
> >
> >
>

> >
> ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >
>
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forev

Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator & PV Modules

[E. C.]

Mikes, Zeke, Chip, Hakan et al;
Greetings -- & thanx for the hope!
   I'm trying to dope out a system to incorporate in a
geodesic-dome structure [utilizing thin-film PV in top
panels to capture sun-source as
heat-transfer/electrical-generation] & also to
accelerate algae-production in a holding tank to
provide biomass to process to BD for transport fuel. 
Trouble is, i'm no chemist or engineer, just a reader
-- this forum is the greatest for idea-generation!!

   i'm not concerned about patents & ownership rights:
 with what i figure is a 10-15-year window of
opportunity to effect change to sustainable living
patterns, we need all the idea-sharing (some call it
theft of intellectual property) we can get, for
survival as a species!

   Specific to this thread:  the cooling fluid across
the PV film doesn't need to be deep if the heat is
transferred & redirected (a radiator?) at a separate
site, right?  Or am i off in left field?

   Sooo much i don't know 

A friend works in an aluminum-extrusion factory, &
says can make the PV-film-holding panels easy -- but i
read that aluminum is a drawback; why not, say,
slotted 2"X6" lumber w/wood keys ??  With the geodesic
design using 1/7 the structure-support needed for
comparable box-type enclosure space, seems this is
still practicable -- 2 X 6 would allow space for
sun-blocking liquid-foam insulation (interior of the
PV, & the circulating algae medium [water], of
course).  I live in Florida, & summer heat is an
issue.  Geodesics are also more wind-resistant (as in
hurricanes, which are becoming more prevalent, bigger,
& more damaging as the global climate degenerates --
at least i'm not right on the coast).

   Enuf of my ramblings -- ideas & corrections are
most  gratefully accepted & acknowledged.  :-)~

Peace to All, & a bettering world
E. Allen C.



  

--- Mike Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes!!
> 
> That's a great observation Zeke! Quite literally, it
> would be a 
> self-cleaning solar collector. Filtration at the
> pump is something that 
> would be an appropriate piece of hardware anyway.
> 
> We should all keep this on the back burner until one
> or some of us have 
> the resources to conspire on a prototype..
> 
> In my opinion it would be the pinnacle of this forum
> to develop 
> technology together which would be freely accessible
> to anyone in the 
> public domain.
> 
> Is there a Patent attorney in the house? I want to
> know if this thread 
> is legally binding, making members of this forum
> co-inventors under the 
> current first-to-invent system in the US.
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > This sounds better.  For one, you don't have a
> pressurized flat plate,
> > which would be hard to engineer compared to a tube
> -- imagine the
> > pressure on a 3 x 5 foot piece of glass with
> pressurized fluid behind
> > it.  Not that a large flat box with pressurized
> fluid in it would have
> > to be at very high pressure if it was a drainback
> type system.  But I
> > like the cascading fluid better.  You could do it
> as cascading without
> > a front cover at all, but then you'd collect loads
> of dust (and other
> > debris, animals, etc), so that would over time
> block more light than
> > the extra piece of glass.
> >
> > With the high heat transfer of a liquid though, a
> system with fluid
> > touching only the back of the PV cells might be
> sufficient though.
> > But then you are back to requiring a filled fluid
> resevoir instead of
> > a trickle, since the back of the PV module would
> be downward facing.
> > Hmm.
> >
> > On 5/16/06, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >   
> >> Who says that the PV cells have to be immersed in
> the oil?
> >>
> >> If the modules were in the glass box and standing
> (more or less) upright,
> >> the oil coolant could simply be cascaded over the
> modules. Even if the oil
> >> had relatively high photoabsorption compared to
> water (for example), there
> >> would only be a thin film to penetrate.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts?
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >> Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hakan Falk wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> Many of the high voltage transformers in
> >>> electricity distribution are filled with oil for
> >>> insulation and cooling purposes.
> >>> In this case I
> >>> belive it is mineral oils, but it is many years
> >>> (40) since I worked with this and do not
> completely trust my memory.
> >>>   
> >> They were,
> >>
> >> and 40 years ago, they were filled with that
> marvelous compound
> >> that did everything exactly right.
> Polychlorinatedbiphenol.
> >>
> >> Great stuff all in all, just had one drawback
> >>
> >> 
> >>> SNIP
> 
> 
> ___
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>
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> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and 

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Another view of the Pentagon Strike

[E. C.]

Hey, Mike;

How many folks are in the FBI's witness protection
program??  & if the FBI was able to confiscate ALL
video records within a few minutes, how long to divert
a flight & secure the passengers?  Especially if u
know ahead what's coming?  There were no major parts
of Flight 93 found, either, according to 
emerg. Response workers first on the scene -- & 3 WTC
towers came down in what looked a lot like controlled
demolition, even tho 1 plane struck each of 2 towers,
which were built to withstand impact of precisely this
type .. 
   Meanwhile, the shrub & his cabal desperately needed
a "Pearl Harbor" to shore up their admin. in public
minds & get on with their PNAC plan (which they have
followed precisely ever since, including Iran [I
didn't mis-spell].
   Wild-eyed radical conspiracy theories?  Maybe ...
but, as in the JFK case, "follow the money". 
Haliburton, the avian bird-flu hoax, Big Oil, Big
Pharma, Big Ag -- pick your own starting point.

Regards,
E. Allen

--- Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> But then what happened to the actual plane and the
> passengers?  How did 
> they all just disappear?
> 
> D. Mindock wrote:
> 
> >  
> > Have any of you watched the newly released
> government video, 
> > supposedly showing a Boeing 747 crashing into the
> Pentagon? Did any of 
> > you think you saw a 747? Here's another piece on
> the Pentagon Strike 
> > worth watching
> > may truth and light prevail...jeannie
> >  
> > http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main
> >
>
>
> >
> >___
> >Biofuel mailing list
> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 




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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Another view of the Pentagon Strike

[E. C.]

On what scale, Clint?
   A few fighter jet pilots who didn't receive
authorization to fire on commercial airliners even
when  it was obvious that their flight path to
collision was inevitable -- a possible (ONE would be
sufficient) private demolition contractor to set up
"insurance" that said collision would be devastating
-- a "natural" diversion of air traffic away from
line-of-sight observation of just 2 other airliners
(neither of which produced wreckage that would confirm
the stated disasters) -- and i've already noted the
FBI confiscation of all possible video evidence 
you don't think the cabal that stole the 2000 election
in our state [your email address places you in FL, as
does mine], and then manufactured the lies that put US
in Iraq -- you really don't think that cabal could
control those few "loose ends"??  They don't have to
prove anything -- it's enough to make it impossible
for anyone to prove anything contrary, & they've done
that.

I don't usually like to denigrate personally -- but
you did -- to QUOTE Mr. Barnum: there's a sucker born
every minute... pull your head out of the dune and get
your own life -- based on the reality that such things
ARE possible (I didn't say [as noone can, at this
point in time] that that's definitely what happened).

Best wishes for a good life ;-)
E. Allen C.

--- Clint Allison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> To Paraphrase Mr. Barnum,  "There's a conspiratorist
> born ever minute".
> The Big Bad Government can't even successfully
> conceal an NSA program to
> monitor phone numbers, how can anyone think they
> could keep something on
> that scale quiet.  Get a life!!!
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Weaver
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:22 AM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Another view of the
> Pentagon Strike
> 
> E. C. wrote:
> 
> >Hey, Mike;
> >
> >How many folks are in the FBI's witness protection
> program??
> >
> Beats me.  But I do think it would be a challenge to
> make all those
> people just disappear - some of them had families
> according to the
> paper.
> 
> >& if the FBI was able to confiscate ALL video
> records within a few 
> >minutes, how long to divert a flight & secure the
> passengers?  
> >Especially if u know ahead what's coming?  There
> were no major parts of
> 
> >Flight 93 found, either, according to emerg.
> >
> I haven't heard that but I can't explain it.  It
> does seem odd.  After
> that plane went down in the Atlantic a few years ago
> they found quite a
> bit of it.
> 
> >Response workers first on the scene -- & 3 WTC
> towers came down in what
> 
> >looked a lot like controlled demolition, even tho 1
> plane struck each 
> >of 2 towers, which were built to withstand impact
> of precisely this 
> >type ..
> >  
> >
> Actually the towers were built to sustain the impact
> of smaller planes -
> which were the norm when they were built.  There was
> an interview with
> the architect -  I believe in The New Yorker (note:
> I'm not swearing as
> to the source, so don't go all biofuels list on me
> ;-)  The towers did
> withstand the strike only to collapse later.
> 
> >   Meanwhile, the shrub & his cabal desperately
> needed a "Pearl Harbor"
> 
> >to shore up their admin. in public minds & get on
> with their PNAC plan 
> >(which they have followed precisely ever since,
> including Iran [I 
> >didn't mis-spell].
> >  
> >
> Listen:  You're not going to get any defense of the
> current admin. from
> me.  If they're capable of ginning up a false war in
> Iraq nothing would
> surprise me.
> 
> >   Wild-eyed radical conspiracy theories?  Maybe
> ...
> >but, as in the JFK case, "follow the money". 
> >Haliburton, the avian bird-flu hoax, Big Oil, Big
> Pharma, Big Ag -- 
> >pick your own starting point.
> >  
> >
> You had me at Halliburton...
> 
> >Regards,
> >E. Allen
> >
> >--- Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>But then what happened to the actual plane and the
> passengers?  How 
> >>did they all just disappear?
> >>
> >>D. Mindock wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> 
> >>>Have any of you watched the newly released
> >>>  
> >>>
> >>government video,
> >>
> >

Re: [Biofuel] Late Night in US

[E. C.]

Hi John;

He didn't -- just like he didn't get elected the 1st
time -- used Diebold & other chicanery in Ohio the 2nd
time (even Karl was smart enuf not to do the deed in
his brother's state again).

That poll standing is about where Nixon's was the
night before he resigned, facing certain impeachment,
isn't it?

Regards
E. Allen C.

--- John Beale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Could someone please remind me, because I forget...
> How the hell did Bush get re-elected??
> 
> 
> Question for all of you who do not live in the
> United States:
> Do people in your area think that the US people
> support President Bush?
> Do those people realize that President Bush has an
> approval rating of  
> 29%?
> 
> 
> I'm from Boston, Massachusetts, and darn it, I don't
> think I know  
> anyone who would admit to voting for Bush in 2004 or
> who, when asked,  
> would say that they would vote for Bush right now.
> 
> Just wondering,
> -John
> 
> 
> 
> On May 23, 2006, at 8:00 AM, Mike Weaver wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > "The Senate voted to make English the national
> language of the United
> > States. The vote drew protests from several
> immigrant groups and one
> > governor of California." --Conan O'Brien
> >
> > "Even though it's a little bit controversial,
> President Bush supports
> > the effort to make English our national language.
> The president says
> > making English our national language is not
> 'discriminatious.'" --Conan
> > O'Brien
> >
> > "The Pentagon announced today that Iraq’s border
> is now 90% under
> > control, which is pretty impressive when you
> realize San Diego's border
> > is only 20% under control." --Jay Leno
> >
> > "As you know, the National Guard stands by, ready
> to go into action any
> > time the president of the United States feels
> there's a big enough of a
> > disaster, like a major earthquake, a huge flood, a
> 29% approval rating.
> > Any one of those things could trigger movement."
> --Jay Leno
> >
> > "He went to a border town in Arizona yesterday.
> ... But, White House
> > spokesman Tony Snow said it was not just a photo
> opportunity. No sirry
> > Bob. Apparently, President Bush went down there
> looking for some guys
> > about landscaping at the White House." --Jay Leno
> >
> > "President Bush is pretty serious about this
> enforcement thing. In  
> > fact,
> > before he left the border, he put up a scarecrow
> of Dick Cheney with a
> > shotgun." --Jay Leno
> >
> > "President Bush said today he has nothing but
> respect for Mexico and  
> > its
> > people and he will always speak the truth to them.
> Here's my question:
> > When can we get that deal?" --Jay Leno
> >
> > "The Senate voted to make English the national
> language. More bad news
> > for President Bush. Now he's got to learn that."
> --Jay Leno
> >
> > "The Senate voted 63 to 34 to make English the
> official language of the
> > United States, but they say as a largely symbolic
> amendment with no  
> > real
> > effect. You know, kind of like that ethics bill."
> --Jay Leno
> >
> > "Pat Robertson said this week that God told him
> that possibly a tsunami
> > could hit the Pacific northwest this year. I don't
> want to be
> > disrespectful, but possibly? ... Like God's
> thinking 60/40. ... Pat,
> > that wasn't God. You fell asleep in front of the
> weather channel."  
> > --Jay
> > Leno
> >
> > "As part of the ongoing immigration debate, the
> Senate on Thursday  
> > voted
> > 64 to 34 to make English America's national
> language. Coming in second:
> > '70s jive talk." –Tina Fey
> >
> > "A Senate committee on Thursday approved a
> constitutional amendment
> > banning same sex marriage, apparently forgetting
> that our forefathers
> > wore wigs and satin Capri pants." --Tina Fey
> >
> > "Kenyan Muslims believe that a five-and-a-half
> pound tuna caught in the
> > Indian Ocean off the coast of Mombasa, carries a
> message from Allah
> > written among its scales. In a related story, this
> doctor [shows a
> > picture of Bill Frist] doesn't think doesn't think
> condoms stop AIDS.
> > And that's this week's edition of 'Religion Gone
> Nuts'" --Tina Fey
> >
> > "Many governors of northeastern states are
> unwilling to volunteer their
> > National Guard troops to assist with President
> Bush's border plan. They
> > want the Guard troops doing what they do best:
> freaking people out at
> > Amtrak stations." –Amy Poehler
> >
> > "A Louisiana state Senate committee unanimously
> approved a ban on cock
> > fighting, in what appears to be a first step in
> outlawing gay marriage"
> > --Amy Poehler
> >
> > "President Bush is sending troops to the Mexican
> border. He's going to
> > have them look for tequila of mass destruction."
> --David Letterman
> >
> > "The Bush administration is tightening immigration
> now. In order to
> > cross the United States, you have to have legal
> documentation. If you
> > want to get into the United States you have to
> have legal documentation
> > or a 95 mile an hour fast ball." --Davi

Re: [Biofuel] Late Night in US

[E. C.]

Hey Mark;

BushCo is low as a snake's belly (very apt) in the
minds of most (70%+ & rising) Americans -- would be
worse if about 10% didn't get their news only from
FauxNews (Fox), which is totally in BushCo's pocket.

the shrub & his cabal are corporatocrats, & primarily
oilmen -- their disastrous policies reflect that -- we
can only hope & work to turn them out of Congress this
year & then hire a real President etc. in 2008.

Get real news from the AM (alternative media), 'cause
the MM (mainstream media) are ALL mostly part of the
cabal.  Fortunately, the 2nd superpower is alive,
well, & growing by leaps & bounds (in spite of all
BushCo's weasely spin machinery.

Best for a better future
E. Allen C.

--- Mark` Cookson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The images that the UK media give out is that Mr
> Bush is popular with the US 
> people. The biggest thing is that the US government
> deny SO WE ARE TOLD 
> through are media is that global warming due to mans
> pollution does not 
> exist in there minds ? Whats all that about?
> We are trying to cut back and the US gov are pushing
> forward with there 
> pollution.
> 
> Have i got this all wrong?
> 
> Mark [living in a mad world!]
> 
> 
> >From: John Beale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Late Night in US
> >Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:12:11 -0400
> >
> >Could someone please remind me, because I forget...
> >How the hell did Bush get re-elected??
> >
> >
> >Question for all of you who do not live in the
> United States:
> >Do people in your area think that the US people
> support President Bush?
> >Do those people realize that President Bush has an
> approval rating of  29%?
> >
> >
> >I'm from Boston, Massachusetts, and darn it, I
> don't think I know  anyone 
> >who would admit to voting for Bush in 2004 or who,
> when asked,  would say 
> >that they would vote for Bush right now.
> >
> >Just wondering,
> >-John
> >
> >
> >
> >On May 23, 2006, at 8:00 AM, Mike Weaver wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>"The Senate voted to make English the national
> language of the United
> >>States. The vote drew protests from several
> immigrant groups and one
> >>governor of California." --Conan O'Brien
> >>
> >>"Even though it's a little bit controversial,
> President Bush supports
> >>the effort to make English our national language.
> The president says
> >>making English our national language is not
> 'discriminatious.'" --Conan
> >>O'Brien
> >>
> >>"The Pentagon announced today that Iraq’s border
> is now 90% under
> >>control, which is pretty impressive when you
> realize San Diego's border
> >>is only 20% under control." --Jay Leno
> >>
> >>"As you know, the National Guard stands by, ready
> to go into action any
> >>time the president of the United States feels
> there's a big enough of a
> >>disaster, like a major earthquake, a huge flood, a
> 29% approval rating.
> >>Any one of those things could trigger movement."
> --Jay Leno
> >>
> >>"He went to a border town in Arizona yesterday.
> ... But, White House
> >>spokesman Tony Snow said it was not just a photo
> opportunity. No sirry
> >>Bob. Apparently, President Bush went down there
> looking for some guys
> >>about landscaping at the White House." --Jay Leno
> >>
> >>"President Bush is pretty serious about this
> enforcement thing. In  fact,
> >>before he left the border, he put up a scarecrow
> of Dick Cheney with a
> >>shotgun." --Jay Leno
> >>
> >>"President Bush said today he has nothing but
> respect for Mexico and  its
> >>people and he will always speak the truth to them.
> Here's my question:
> >>When can we get that deal?" --Jay Leno
> >>
> >>"The Senate voted to make English the national
> language. More bad news
> >>for President Bush. Now he's got to learn that."
> --Jay Leno
> >>
> >>"The Senate voted 63 to 34 to make English the
> official language of the
> >>United States, but they say as a largely symbolic
> amendment with no  real
> >>effect. You know, kind of like that ethics bill."
> --Jay Leno
> >>
> >>"Pat Robertson said this week that God told him
> that possibly a tsunami
> >>could hit the Pacific northwest this year. I don't
> want to be
> >>disrespectful, but possibly? ... Like God's
> thinking 60/40. ... Pat,
> >>that wasn't God. You fell asleep in front of the
> weather channel."  --Jay
> >>Leno
> >>
> >>"As part of the ongoing immigration debate, the
> Senate on Thursday  voted
> >>64 to 34 to make English America's national
> language. Coming in second:
> >>'70s jive talk." –Tina Fey
> >>
> >>"A Senate committee on Thursday approved a
> constitutional amendment
> >>banning same sex marriage, apparently forgetting
> that our forefathers
> >>wore wigs and satin Capri pants." --Tina Fey
> >>
> >>"Kenyan Muslims believe that a five-and-a-half
> pound tuna caught in the
> >>Indian Ocean off the coast of Mombasa, carries a
> message from Allah
> >>written among its scales. In a related story, this
> 

Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio

[E. C.]

Todd, Keith, Mike et al & List;

Kudos still to Keith for even-handed reasonableness.  
I'm also not a journalist, just a reader; still, i
read the whole thing & the links (retired, i have lots
of time -- & like to get the whole flavor of what i
taste).

It was apparent that this was an angry & outraged
piece -- & i was sure by the end that the "frail lady"
was probably not "pure as the driven snow" in the
encounter, despite her protestations.  But still --
she (& her fledgling organization) has citizen's
rights, & some of them were obviously violated, by
organized power holding all the cards & stacking the
deck.  At the very least, she (& the WCW she's part
of) are due an apology & some redress -- i wonder if
they'll get it?

This incident reminded me of one similar, albeit on a
much larger scale, also in Ohio "back in the day" --
but 4 student activists DIED at Kent State! 
Supposedly, re-training for Nat'l Guard & police came
of that -- but a generation has grown old & the new
one may not have gotten that benefit.  Time to
revisit?

Regards
E. Allen C.

P.S.  Keith, i owe you & the List an apology for muddy
writing (about a month ago) -- which you very aptly
corrected:  i didn't mean "biofuel is biofuel is
biofuel", but, on re-reading (after getting over the
stinging rebuke) that was how it came across -- I'm
sorry.  What i meant was more like "fuel is fuel is
fuel", & "we need to learn how to cure our gluttony
for fuel, for the sake of this, our only planet".
Namaste
Allen 



--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > You have to answer the questions who, what, where,
> when, why and how 
> > in the first 25 words. But you seem to expect to
> find the whole 
> > newspaper encapsulated in the front-page lead
> headline.
> 
> And there you have it Keith.
> 
> If you can honestly tell me that those questions
> were sufficently answered at the outset of the
> article,
>
http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1029&Itemi
> then we certainly do have a difference in
> understanding on how best to capture an audience and
> communicate an idea expeditiously.
> 
> And when from the 27th word through about the
> 2,500th the reader is repeatedly bombarded with
> editorializing to the tune of  "This is an outrage!"
> - intended to
> enlist and incite emotion long before the facts are
> supplied - not to mention soliciation of donations
> for a cause that hasn't even been fully described
> yet, it's a pretty safe bet that it's not going to
> get any better and the facts probably need to be
> sought elsewhere.
> 
> People generally don't like being led around the
> doggy park by a leash (2,500 words) and told what to
> think or believe, even if it is from a "granola"
> source. If I was after pre-packaged, I'd buy
> Swansons and watch Fox Knows.
> 
> Like I mentioned to Mike Weaver, I got tired of the
> propaganda and stopped scrolling down. I did go to
> their archives and searched for a little more
> information. So it can't be said that I had neither
> interest or initiative.
> 
> Fault me for not caring for the author's/webmaster's
> style if you wish. But the point is that if they
> failed to capture my full attention as someone who
> has interest in such maladies, then they're probably
> going to fail to gain the attention of others at an
> exponential rate.
> 
> As for
> 
> > Why are you importing the rules of one type of
> journalism (print) 
> > into a discussion that focuses on online
> information? Do newspapers 
> > come with handy word-search engines, for instance?
> Do you see that 
> > rule of journalism much in evidence when it comes
> to blogs? That 
> > thing is a sort of blog. What goes on in the
> blogosphere is making 
> > big huge dents in the mainstream press these days,
> 
> Do you really think that the general guidelines of
> good communication should be chucked out the window
> when it comes to the internet and blogs? There
> should have been hotlinks pasted throughout their
> article from nearly sentence one. ("Full story on
> Page 11.") And as a general rule, blogs pretty much
> give you the 5 dubyas and a how up front.
> 
> > Judging from this exchange, what it seems you
> haven't been there and
> > done is learnt how to extract information.
> 
> What it seems is exactly as I've explained. Nothing
> more and nothing less. I wanted facts and didn't
> have the patience to wade through a half-ton of
> blather to get to them. I'm not a speed reader. I'm
> just an average Joe who likes a straight story, not
> one well garnished with an endlessly distracting
> raft of flotsam and jetsom.
> 
> > You've been a web pressman? I know you worked in
> the old hot-metal 
> > press, but not as a journalist. Here we are on the
> Internet and I see 
> > scant evidence of soy-based ink.
> 
> For nigh eleven years. Some of the smartest people
> anyone has ever known can (or could) be found
> twisting keys on ink fountains. Editorial rooms
> aren't exactly the sole repository

Re: [Biofuel] Bad Stuff is Happening With Chile's Water

[E. C.]

Thanks, Joe;

by their counter, that site should hit their target #
of signatures today. :-)~

only problem i see is that it appears the PetitionSite
petition will go to some flunky @ Barricks, rather
than to the Chilean gov't. -- so Andrew's link may
still be more appropos.

Cheers & Peace
E. Allen C.






--- Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey Andrew and all;
> 
> Probably better to go here;
> 
>
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/946839131?ltl=1148474564
> 
> If you want to take action on this (and I hope you
> do)
> 
> Joe
> 
> Andrew Netherton wrote:
> 
> > Dear friends who care about our earth.
> > 
> > Judge for yourself if you want to take action.
> > 
> > In the Valle de San Felix, the purest water in
> Chile runs from 2
> > rivers, fed by 2 glaciers. Water is a most
> precious resource, and wars
> > will be fought for it.
> > 
> > Indigenous farmers use the water, there is no
> unemployment, and they
> > provide the second largest source of income for
> the area.
> > 
> > Under the glaciers has been found a huge deposit
> of gold, silver
> > andother minerals. To get at these, it would be
> necessary to break, to
> > destroy the glaciers - something never conceived
> of in the history of
> > the world - and to make 2 huge holes, each as big
> as a whole mountain,
> > one for extraction and one for the mine's rubbish
> tip.
> > 
> > The project is called PASCUA LAMA. The company is
> called Barrick Gold.
> > 
> > The operation is planned by a multi-national
> company, one of whose
> > members is George Bush Sr.
> > 
> > The Chilean Government has approved the project to
> start this year, 2006.
> > 
> > The only reason it hasn't started yet is because
> the farmers have got
> > a temporary stay of execution.
> > 
> > If they destroy the glaciers, they will not just
> destroy the source of
> > especially pure water, but they will permanently
> contaminate the 2
> > rivers so they will never again be fit for human
> or animal consumption
> > because of the use of cyanide and sulphuric acid
> in the extraction
> > process.
> > 
> > Every last gram of gold will go abroad to the
> multinational company
> > and not one will be left with the people whose
> land it is.  They will
> > only be left with the poisoned water and the
> resulting illnesses.
> > 
> > The farmers have been fighting a long time for
> their land, but have
> > been forbidden to make a TV appeal by a ban from
> the Ministry of the
> > Interior.
> > 
> > Their only hope now of putting brakes on this
> project is to get help
> > from international justice.
> > 
> > The world must know what is happening in Chile.
> The only place to
> > start changing the world is from here.
> > 
> > We ask you to circulate this message amongst your
> friends in the following way.
> > 
> > Please copy this text, paste it into a new email
> adding your signature
> > and send it to everyone in your address book.
> Please, will the 100th
> > person to receive and sign the petition, send it
> to
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] to be forwarded to the
> Chilean Government.
> > 
> > No to Pascua Lama Open-cast mine in the Andean
> Cordillera on the
> > Chilean-Argentine frontier.
> > 
> > We ask the Chilean Government not to authorize the
> Pascua Lama project
> > to protect the whole of 3 glaciers, the purity of
> the water of the San
> > Felix Valley and El Transito, the quality of the
> agricultural land of
> > the region of Atacama, the quality of life of the
> Diaguita people and
> > of the whole population of the region.
> > 
> > Signature, City, Country
> > 
> >>
> >>1) Katharine Proudfoot, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK
> >>
> >>2) Laura Cole, London, UK
> >>
> >>3) David Platt, London, UK
> >>
> >>4) Diane Platt, Manchester, UK
> >>
> >>5) Tanya Corker, Manchester, UK
> >>
> >>6) Nicola Hargreaves, UK
> >>
> >>7) Nicholas Jones, UK
> >>
> >>8) Johann Don-Daniel, Germany
> >>
> >>9) Ashley Berger, Germany
> >>
> >>10) Sarah Downie, Leeds, UK
> >>
> >>11) Paula Delahunty, Bingley, UK
> >>
> >>12) John O'Driscoll, Bingley, Uk
> >>
> >>13) Jordan-Lee Delahunty, Bingley, UK
> >>
> >>14) Claire Mulvey, Bradford, UK
> >>
> >>15) Marie Malcolm Bradford, UK
> >>
> >>16) Ann Clowes, Halifax UK
> >>
> >>17) Jayne McGee, Brighouse UK
> >>
> >>18) Jason Barratt Oldham UK
> >>
> >>19) Lindsay Torrance, Rochdale UK
> >>
> >>20) Maggie Ford, Rochdale, U.K.
> >>
> >>21) Barry Cook, Todmorden, U.K.
> >>
> >>22) Shelley Burgoyne, Todmorden, U.K.
> >>
> >>23) Lisa Stuart, Potes, Spain.
> >>
> >>24) Michael Stuart, Potes, Spain.
> >>
> >>25) Renee Engl, Byron Bay, Australia
> >>
> >>26) Adrian Begg, Brunswick Heads, Australia
> >>
> >>27) Riana Begg, Brunswick Heads, Australia
> >>
> >>28) Oriel Paterson, Brunswick Heads, Australia
> >>
> >>29) Alicia Paterson, Brisbane, Australia
> >>
> >>30) Lyneve Robinson, Sydney, Australia
> >>
> >>31) Jennifer Moalem, Sydney, Australia
> >>
> >>32) Alexandra Pope, Sydney Australia
> >>
> >>33) Shushann Movsessian, Sydney Australia
>

Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS

[E. C.]

some serious historian correct me if i'm 'way off --
but i think AH's use of "The Reich" was a sop to
German nationalism, or empires (ironic, since he was
not of German extraction himself, until he so
decreed).  This is not meant as a slur on today's
Germany [& we USA'ans have NO business casting stones,
anyway -- suffering in shameful acquiescence under the
yoke of the shrub/chainey/rummy PNAC cabal AND our own
horrific history].  The comparison to AH's methodology
is Very accurate -- & deeply disturbing.

Regards
Allen (E. Allen C.)   

--- Jason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> wouldnt this be the 4th? i mean AH did finally fail,
> so the shrub would be 
> the 4th.
> - Original Message - 
> From: "DHAJOGLO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 1:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE
> ADS
> 
> 
> >I always thought a good shirt would read:
> >
> > Secret Prisons, Cost: 1 Billion Dollars
> > Illegally Kidnapping Foreign Citizens, Cost: 10
> Billion Dollars
> > Illegally Spying on Your Citizens, Cost: 20
> Billion
> > Transforming the US into the Third Reich:
> Priceless
> >
> > There are some things money can buy, for
> everything else there's Dick, 
> > Donald, and Dubya.
> >
> > On Thursday, May 25, 2006  8:06 AM, Joe Street
> wrote:
> >>Actually I know this is a bit of a joke but I
> bought some t-shirts
> >>lately.  One is a hoody with a silhouette of the
> shrub and a swastika on
> >>his forehead and the caption 'WAR CRIMINAL'
> another has a pic of the
> >>shrub and the caption INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST as
> well as the Dick is a
> >>killer t-shirt I mentioned before.  I work in an
> educational institution
> >>so I have to be serious about the impression I
> make on young minds. I
> >>wear these shirts as often as possible.
> >>
> >>Joe
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >
>
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 
> > messages):
> >
>
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.1/347 -
> Release Date: 5/24/2006
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 




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Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS

[E. C.]

Adolph Hitler -- at the risk of making it onto the
NSA's master database -- but then, i've used PNAC &
cabal in the same sentence, too.  Aarrgh! :-)~
E. Allen C.

--- DHAJOGLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Who is AH?  I don't catch your reference?
> 
> On Thursday, May 25, 2006  4:13 PM, Jason& Katie
> wrote:
> >wouldnt this be the 4th? i mean AH did finally
> fail, so the shrub would be
> >the 4th.
> >>I always thought a good shirt would read:
> >>
> >> Secret Prisons, Cost: 1 Billion Dollars
> >> Illegally Kidnapping Foreign Citizens, Cost: 10
> Billion Dollars
> >> Illegally Spying on Your Citizens, Cost: 20
> Billion
> >> Transforming the US into the Third Reich:
> Priceless
> >>
> >> There are some things money can buy, for
> everything else there's Dick,
> >> Donald, and Dubya.
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 




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Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar/question??

[E. C.]

Marylynn;

By way of explanation, one word:  control.
For clarification, add one more word:  corporate
control.
And to refine that to bring in reality, tweak that: 
corporatocracy -- the system we live under.  The same
notion driving NAIS, and NSA databases, and ANWAR
drilling, and a massively unpopular "war", etc., etc..

Not massive chunks, unless you pursue the
implications.
Follow the money.

Regards,
Allen  (E. Allen C.)


--- Marylynn Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> There was a post from another list that has me
> confused.
> 
> I trust the source so I pay attention but can not
> understand any possible 
> reasoning here.
> 
> There are several old/closed gold mines in the U.S.
> that still have good 
> veins with rich to very rich ore in these veins ..
> and the veins are 
> substantial and could be easily mined.
> 
> Apparently they are plentiful enough.
> 
> These areas with "closed mines" are not available
> for purchase and/or lease 
> unless the purchase reason is altered .. which is
> being done.
> 
> When a property is obtained and gold has been mined
> .. and mining activities 
> have become known .. the owners are visited by
> federals (unidentified) 
> telling them they need to close down because their
> activity "threatens the 
> economy".
> 
> This plus enough scare tactics seems to have caused
> this whole thing to 
> become a bit more quietly approached.
> 
> I have no other information I would be willing to
> offer other than, because 
> of the source, I believe this is actually happening.
> 
> .. any other information I have is extremely
> limited.
> 
> And, while I believe it's true, I find it beyond my
> "reasoning" and/or 
> ability to understand.
> 
> I know I'm missing massive chunks of information
> here so I have no 
> information links to connect it.
> 
> So, pretending that's it's true .. Is there anyone
> who could possibly shed 
> some light on this.
> 
> What possible reason could there be?
> 
> Mary Lynn
> 
> Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister
> ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART
> TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal
> Behavior Modification . 
> Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems .
> Psionic Energy Practitioner 
> . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition .
> Homeopathy . Polarity .
> The Animal Connection Healing Modalities
> http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/
> http://allcreatureconnections.org
> 
> 
> 
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>
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> 
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> 
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> archives (50,000 messages):
>
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> 
> 




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Re: [Biofuel] Republican / Conservative ??

[E. C.]

Marylynn;

Hooray!  You got it -- and get it!  :-)~
Now look up PNAC, & see where that takes you.  :-(~

Namaste,
Allen

--- Marylynn Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Not sure where the link came from but it suggested
> doing some research into 
> the "EXACT" meaning of the term Neo-Conservative.
> 
> The White House does refer to themselves as
> "Neo-Conservative" and I .. for 
> one .. never bothered to try to understand exactly
> what that was.
> 
> I have been reading everything google has to offer
> .. plus a few other 
> search engines .. and it's not very pretty.
> 
> .. in reality .. George W. Bush has never lied to
> us.
> 
> He told us up front what he was.
> 
> The noise you hear is my hand slapping my head!!
> 
> Mary Lynn
> 
> Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister
> ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART
> TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal
> Behavior Modification . 
> Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems .
> Psionic Energy Practitioner 
> . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition .
> Homeopathy . Polarity .
> The Animal Connection Healing Modalities
> http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/
> http://allcreatureconnections.org
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
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> 
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>
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> 
> 




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Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar

[E. C.]

Hey Mike;

What Katrina did to New Orleans wasn't an ecological
disaster?  The Corps. saw that coming 30 years ago,
but it suited the suits in Big Oil corp. suites to let
it happen, for the good of the "dynamic economy" -- as
we're finally beginning to realise, there's more to
dynamism than "bottom lines".

As for our once-vaunted legal system, who besides
hapless grunts has paid the price for Abu Graibe, &
what about the latest Supreme Court ruling & its
effect on journalists -- predictable since the
addition of Roberts & Alito ?? -- & the challenge to
Roe v. Wade is wending its way their way.  Ahhh, but
for the spin of it, we can take a Terry Schiavo case
all the way (not to mention a national election!)

Regards,
Allen  (E. Allen C.)

--- Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I didn't say that.  Nor would I.  I said the US has
> a dynamic economy.
> Our infrastructure is beginning to fall apart; the
> highway system is 
> crumbling; the electrical grid is shaky; we have no
> energy policy...the 
> list goes on.  But it it better than the systems in
> most of the world, 
> except Western Europe.
> There is a functioning legal system, something I
> think you'd be 
> hard-pressed to claim about China and to some degree
> India.
> Our corruption is better managed and on a grander
> scale - Halliburton.  
> But you don't have to pay a bribe to get driver's
> license or cross a 
> bridge or open a business.  Would you rather own
> stock in Exxon or 
> Cnooc?  Well, figuratively, I wouldn't own oil
> stocks personally, but 
> one has reasonably open books, and putatively
> complies with 
> Sarbanes-Oxley, and one can be manipulated at the
> will of the government.
> Despite the best efforts of the current
> administration, our pollution 
> levels are nothing like that of China or India, and
> the days of major 
> ecological disasters like the Three Gorges Dam are
> passed.
> Transparency has suffered mightily under Bush, but
> Transparency 
> International still rates the US well above China
> and India.
> 
> Hakan Falk wrote:
> 
> >Mike,
> >
> >At 04:16 31/05/2006, you wrote:
> >  
> >
> >> >>Also, say what you want about the US but it is
> still by far the most
> >>dynamic economy in the world.  China and India
> still have significant
> >>infrastructure, corruption, pollution and
> transparency issues to overcome.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >And US have none of those problems? LOL
> >
> >Hakan  
> >
> >
> >
> >___
> >Biofuel mailing list
> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
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> >
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Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment

[E. C.]

Zeke, Kenny;

sometimes, here on the List, we forget that we're
mostly "preaching to the choir", & there's a whole
raft of folks paddling frantically in all directions
to get away from the Titanic (unless they're standing
on the aft deck by choice).  In Lancaster, PA that
paper is part of the MM (mainstream media), & getting
a positive article about Biodiesel published there is
a HUGE step  -- if you had a part in accomplishing
that, Kenny: Kudos to you!

Zeke:  "a journey of a thousand miles begins with a
single step" -- wasn't that Gandhi, or Buddha, or
someone equally influential?

Namaste,
Allen (E. Allen C.) 

--- Ken Dunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 6/1/06, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > B20 is a big step I admit, but how about B100?
> 
> I agree but, one big step is better than lying in
> the fetal position.
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning

[E. C.]

whooee Jason or Katie, et al;

what a gigantic can-o'-worms y'all have opened there!
-- & none suitable for vermiculture, either.  ;-)

Controlled burning has been common since settlers
invaded Native American's homelands (yes, they also
used the practice, but on a miniscule scale).  Until
perhaps the last couple decades, it was considered
"sound science", especially by Big Lumber & eager
human habitat developers -- still is, in
mostly-denialist quarters.

Only recently has science caught up with what we all
know, instinctively: Ma Nature knows best how to
handle eco-systems and, in the short term (thinking in
multiple millenia), can be pretty unforgiving of
species (like humans) who refuse to recognise that
maxim.  Unfortunately, because we (humans) have become
so ubiquitious, prolific, & bellicose, we face the
possibility of taking many, many species with us into
oblivion (California Condors, Polar Bears, Amazon (&
other)Frogs, Butterflies & Penguins are just the tip
of a melting iceberg). 

Earnest regards,
Allen

--- mark manchester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I feel this is wrong thinking also.  The California
> Condor population
> deserves respect too.
> Jesse
> 
> From: Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT)
> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
> 
> 
> The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in
> fact the native Americans
> used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas
> with brush that used to
> have grass, The California Condor population was
> decimated by the brush.
> They could not take off near brush and hunting
> grounds disappeared.
>  
> 
>  
> Kirk
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning

[E. C.]

Interesting, Kirk

Have you researched that name (i haven't), & found
that it applied because the Native Americans
control-burned the forests that covered the mountain
slopes?  If so, to what purpose?  I find that notion a
bit of a stretch, in light of what i've read & learned
about Native Americans' deep respect -- yes,
reverence, even -- for the Earth & its natural
inhabitants, plant and animal.

Might it (the name) be more likely derived from
observation of the  natural phenomenon of the
atmospheric inversion that made L.A. "the smog capital
of the world" even before today's obscene paved
parking lot?

No disrespect for L.A., which millions regard as a
vibrant, culturally-diverse & progressive community of
communities -- but in the context of millions of acres
of "managed" forest lands, that valley IS pretty
miniscule, even if ancient Native Americans did
similarly "manage" timber there.

Regards,
Allen (E. Allen C)

--- Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Not so miniscule
>   The native American name for where Los Angeles is
> now was "Valley of the smokes"
>
>   Kirk
>
>   
> "E. C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
> whooee Jason or Katie, et al;
> 
> what a gigantic can-o'-worms y'all have opened
> there!
> -- & none suitable for vermiculture, either. ;-)
> 
> Controlled burning has been common since settlers
> invaded Native American's homelands (yes, they also
> used the practice, but on a miniscule scale). Until
> perhaps the last couple decades, it was considered
> "sound science", especially by Big Lumber & eager
> human habitat developers -- still is, in
> mostly-denialist quarters.
> 
> Only recently has science caught up with what we all
> know, instinctively: Ma Nature knows best how to
> handle eco-systems and, in the short term (thinking
> in
> multiple millenia), can be pretty unforgiving of
> species (like humans) who refuse to recognise that
> maxim. Unfortunately, because we (humans) have
> become
> so ubiquitious, prolific, & bellicose, we face the
> possibility of taking many, many species with us
> into
> oblivion (California Condors, Polar Bears, Amazon (&
> other)Frogs, Butterflies & Penguins are just the tip
> of a melting iceberg). 
> 
> Earnest regards,
> Allen
> 
> --- mark manchester wrote:
> 
> > I feel this is wrong thinking also. The California
> > Condor population
> > deserves respect too.
> > Jesse
> > 
> > From: Kirk McLoren 
> > Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT)
> > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
> > 
> > 
> > The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in
> > fact the native Americans
> > used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas
> > with brush that used to
> > have grass, The California Condor population was
> > decimated by the brush.
> > They could not take off near brush and hunting
> > grounds disappeared.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Kirk
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > ___
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> > archives (50,000 messages):
> >
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> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning

[E. C.]

Thank you, Robert (or Benita)

Your response came in (here) as I was writing mine. 
As usual, yours is more complete and authoritative
than my poor efforts -- but we reached the same
conclusions.

Namaste,
Allen (E. Allen C.)


--- robert and benita rabello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Kirk McLoren wrote:
> 
> >
> > Not so miniscule
> > The native American name for where Los Angeles is
> now was "Valley of 
> > the smokes"
> >  
> 
> 
>   But that's not because they were engaged in
> wholesale burning, but 
> because the subtropical inversion, off-gassing
> native plant life, 
> petroleum offgassing, surrounding mountains and
> marine onflow mingled 
> with smoke from their campfires to create naturally
> hazy conditions.  
> Even if humans stopped all their industrial and
> automotive activities in 
> the basin, there would be a handful of days during
> the year with poor 
> air quality.
> 
> While the topography, climate and chaparral
> flora all contribute to 
> the issue, Los Angeles suffers from smog more often
> than not because WE 
> pollute the air.  Although it's better now than it
> was when I was a 
> child, it's still disgusting, and the forests that
> used to cover the 
> mountains around the city have been steadily dying
> off.  (There are far 
> fewer trees now than I remember when growing up in
> the area.)  Even 
> along the coast, however, airborne pollutants that
> travel over the 
> Pacific from Asia contribute to the problem.
> 
> Air pollution has become a global issue.
> 
> robert luis rabello
> "The Edge of Justice"
> Adventure for Your Mind
> http://www.newadventure.ca
> 
> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Hello and Question

[E. C.]

Hello Joe (Maybe i should say Joe J., as there's at
least one other [& very-knowledgable] Joe {Street} who
often contributes here)

Welcome, from another newbie (been avidly reading &
occasionally commenting/questioning for less than a
year).  

First off, let me say you are now on probably THE
Premier discussion forum/site re issues of sustainable
practices on the Web! (Like you, i'm also on other
lists) -- I find this the fairest, most balanced, most
reasonably-moderated List of all I'm aware of.  My
interests go 'way beyond "just bio-diesel", or even
"just Bio-fuel", yet i almost always find sane,
sensible, usable information on "whatever" topic
related to finding a way out of the morass our poor
planet is in.  Welcome, indeed.

To your questions:  
I'm in Florida, so can't help with specifics about
Maryland -- but I'll bet you'll find them here.  The
best i can advise in that regard is - hook up with a
home-brewing bio-diesel enthusiast near you who's
following the advice found here AND on Journey to
Forever -- and in the meantime, spend lots of time in
the Archives (and probably become such an enthusiast
yourself)... it will be time well spent!

The question about the (78% figure) is a Huge bone of
contention between advocates of BAU [business as
usual] & OTB thinkers [outside the box].  The issue is
usually discussed in economic terms (cost/benefit
analysis) -- and in just that framework, it is now
"too close to call".  But there is a larger paradigm
at work, here: global survivability.  If it were
purely an economic issue, it would be resolved by the
BAU folks as the statistics change -- God only knows
how many wars, genocides, ecological disasters, failed
states, etc., etc. that may entail (including, BTW,
our own US economy, & others of the "First World"). 
Right now, the BAU folks are having it all their way
-- they have the deepest pockets -- they can train &
employ the most & best brains (tho not ALL the best &
brightest - thank whatever God you choose).

The evidence is mounting exponentially (and it's
already insurmountable) that BAU is destroying the
only planet we have to live on -- we HAVE to get OTB,
& think of Sustainability, if we want to leave a
planet for our grandchildren to live on.  The best
scientists (& i mean True Scientists, who seek & serve
only Truth, irrespective of funding sources) give us
anywhere from 10 to 100 years in which to solve this
Sustainability issue, or else -- with growing
consensus on a shorter time-frame.  Or else -- we
won't be able to.  Period.

In this context, the debate over (78%) is irrelevant. 
By way of example (from one tiny slice of the
paradigm):  it takes about 10 years to build & make
operational a new dam, or power-generating plant, to 
serve a hugely-wasteful grid of delivery (whatever the
source of generation -- oil, coal, uranium, biomass,
even water-flow or sunlight).  Once up & running, such
a system reaches economic viability (break-even, in
cost/benefit analysis) in another 10 - 30 years, & can
then be expected to continue feeding "the bottom line"
 for another 40 - 90 years.  And you can bet your own
or grandma's eyes & teeth that, given the huge capital
investment, the BAU folks will insist (with all their
deep-pocket might) that the system (including the grid
it feeds) will continue in use.

Sustainable?  Hah!  (But you already know all that, if
you get info from Alternative Media sources -- the MsM
[mainstream media, corporately owned & controlled]
does their best to lull you into compliance with BAU
objectives, since they are part of that structure).
The same exam can be applied to the
Auto/truck/rail/highway/fuel consortium.  And others.

Please forgive me -- i rant.  To be more specific to
your honest, earnest question: the difference between
biomass-derived fuels (there are many kinds, as you'll
discover here) and fossil fuels (also many) is that
fossil fuels come from materials stored eons ago in
the Earth, while bio-mass fuels come from living
(recently) plant systems.  Extraction of energy from
bio-mass is relatively ecologically neutral (tho there
are worlds of differences in how we extract said
energy -- and in how the bio-mass is grown) -- fossil
fuels take substances that WERE stored safely (in
terms of eco-systems) out of interaction with the
environment we have to live in, and puts those
substances into the (current) environment.  We have
done this for so long, & are doing so (using fossil
fuels) so profligately now that we are dangerously
close to changing our environment to one in which we
(and many other life-forms) cannot survive.  That's
the Real bottom line.  The discussion about (the 78%)
comes down to how best to change from destroying our
planet (welll-l,  not quite: Earth is older than Life,
and will continue in orbit with or without Life as we
know it).  I leave to experts (there are many on this
List) how best to go about that.  Bio-fuels, even if
slightly less economically cost-effective (tho, as i
said earl

Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning

[E. C.]

Doug;

your meaning was crystal clear to me, & i am an
English major (more precisely, was, since i never
followed the career path i trained for in college). 
In point of fact, your response said what i tried to,
but more succinctly & to the point.  Kudos.  :-)~

Kirk;

I looked back in my archived file to see if your
nit-pick was justified, & didn't find it so, IMHO --
but hey, to err is human, & i've been called on gaffes
i've made before.

Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple i
know has acquainted me with the fact that there's a
fair number of folks who fervently believe that,
indeed, the human species IS descended from
cross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitors
from space (there being no clearly-defined "missing
link" in the fossil record).  True or not, we humans
are a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution
-- and may not have a very long chapter in that
history if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive,
egocentric "management style".

Regards,

Allen (E. Allen C.)

--- Doug Younker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Kirk,
> 
>The reason I bothered to post was to detail why I
> believe seasonal 
> burning, while it may have apparent benefits, is not
> "natural", as 
> practiced by man.  I would think the last sentence
> of mine; "Personally 
> I think man has interfered enough, long enough, we 
> can't fully 
> understand the role of fire in Earth's evolution."
> would have indicated 
> my opinion man can affect the environment, thus
> perhaps evolution?  Oh 
> well English composition has never been my strong
> suit
> Doug, N0LKK
> Kansas USA
> 
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
> > Interesting that you dont see man as part of
> earth's evolution. Are we ETs?
> >  
> > Kirk
> >
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] GM is obsolete - non-GM biotech now "the first choice"

[E. C.]

LOL!
... the Mike(s) aren't the only ones -- but Jason, you
left out another essential: a pepper-shaker!  LOL

Seriously, tho -- I agree whole-heartedly, as we
strive to look backward into the future, keeping
foremost in our minds the slogan of sustainability:
LESS IS MORE
LESS, BUT BETTER

Namaste,
E. Allen C.

--- Jason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> i dont really understand why genetically engineered
> food became popular 
> anyway, why didnt they just do it like farmers have
> for centuries and breed 
> their plants by hand. even Darwin did it on the HMS
> Beagle and all it took 
> was a pair of tweezers (dont laugh Mike(s) i know
> your perverted minds work 
> well together)
> Jason
> ICQ#:  154998177
> MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 8:21 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] GM is obsolete - non-GM biotech
> now "the first choice"
> 
> 
> http://www.gmwatch.org/print-archive2.asp?arcid=6668
> 
> GM is obsolete - non-GM biotech now "the first
> choice" (21/6/2006)
> 
> The Foundation on Economic Trends (FET), founded by
> the economist
> Jeremy Rifkin, who has highlighted the dangers of
> genetic engineering
> since the early 1980s, has recently completed a
> white paper on the
> next generation of biotech agriculture, called
> Marker Assisted
> Selection (MAS).
> 
> Rifkin, like many others, is convinced that MAS has
> eclipsed genetic
> engineering in its potential and that GE is a failed
> technology whose
> limitations are hotly denied by corporate-friendly
> scientists and the
> entrenched interests they represent.
> 
> Rifkin's FET sees its position paper as "opening up
> a new
> conversation in the debate surrounding GM food."
> Those boiotech
> proponents wedded to an already outmoded vision of
> the future of
> agriculture, centered on GE and patents, can be
> relied upon to do
> their damndest to try and drown out that
> conversation.
> 
> EXCERPTS: ...new cutting edge technologies have made
> gene splicing
> and transgenic crops obsolete and a serious
> impediment to scientific
> progress. The new frontier is called genomics and
> the new
> agricultural technology is called Marker Assisted
> Selection, or MAS.
> 
> Wally Beversdorf, former vice president of plant
> science research at
> Syngenta, candidly admitted that although the
> company was still
> engaged in GM technology, "marker assisted selection
> is the first
> choice" now in the company's research priorities.
> 
> European Environmental Commissioner Stavros Dimas
> raised the question
> of [GM] contamination of plant varieties and loss of
> biodiversity in
> a speech to environmental ministers of the 25 EU
> member states on
> April 5, 2006. Dimas told his colleagues that "GMO
> products raise a
> whole new series of possible risks to the
> environment, notably
> potential long term effects that could impact on
> biodiversity." Dimas
> said he was particularly concerned about loss of
> biodiversity because
> of the vast potential afforded by the new MAS
> technology... Dimas
> noted that "MAS technology is attracting
> considerable attention" and
> said that the European Union "should not ignore the
> use of 'upgraded'
> conventional varieties as an alternative to GM
> crops".
> ---
> 
> http://www.foet.org/FETSupportStatementonMAS.pdf
> 
> The Foundation on Economic Trends (FET) Statement of
> Support for
> Genomics Research and Marker Assisted Selection
> Technology within the
> Context of a Broader, More Holistic, Agroecological
> Approach to
> Farming
> 
> For years, the life science companies - Monsanto,
> Syngenta, Bayer,
> Pioneer, etc. - have argued that GM food is the next
> great scientific
> and technological revolution in agriculture, and the
> only efficient
> and cheap way to feed a growing population in a
> shrinking world.
> Non-governmental organizations (NGOs), including my
> own, The
> Foundation on Economic Trends, have been cast as the
> villains in this
> unfolding agricultural drama, and often categorized
> as modern
> versions of the English Luddites, accused of
> continually blocking
> scientific and technological progress because of
> their opposition to
> GM food.
> 
> Now, new cutting edge technologies have made gene
> splicing and
> transgenic crops obsolete and a serious impediment
> to scientific
> progress. The new frontier is called genomics and
> the new
> agricultural technology is called Marker Assisted
> Selection, or MAS.
> The new technology offers a sophisticated, new
> method to greatly
> accelerate classical breeding. A growing number of
> scientists believe
> that MAS - which is already being introduced into
> the market - will
> eventually replace GM food.
> 
> Scientists are mapping and sequencing the genomes of
> major crop
> species and using the findings to create a new
> approach to advancing
> agricultural technology. Instead of using molecular
> splicing
> techniques to transfer a

Re: [Biofuel] Disney

[E. C.]

Jason :)

try http:www.truthout.org
lots more of activists & real journalists (even from
MsM, like Keith Olderman of MSNBC [this one & a
previous bite]), an extensive Video archive well worth
subscribing to. (it's free)
E. Allen C. 

--- Jason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> the title is appropriate... how in the hell did this
> get on the air without 
> being stifled? i love it! SHOW ME MORE!
> Jason
> ICQ#:  154998177
> MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> >>> "We have not forgotten, Mr. President, you
> have."
> >>>
>

> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 -
> Release Date: 9/12/2006
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] A textbook definition of cowardice

[E. C.]

maybe pulled from MsM (don't know, don't watch,
especially FauxNews) -- but it's all over the
blogosphere, even HuffPost -- just 1/2 hr ago i
watched And read the unexpurgated original version on
Truthout.org.  Keith Olberman nailed it, as usual --
must be something special (in the genes, maybe?) about
 Keiths! ;-)~
Peace, Love, and NO MORE WARS!
E. Allen C. 

--- "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I saw the interview where Fox News tried to sandbag
> Clinton, but he threw it all
> back in the interviewer's face. Now it seems that
> interview has been pulled from
> online access. Wonder why?  Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> 
> A textbook definition of cowardice
> Keith Olbermann comments on Bill Clinton's Fox News
> interview
> SPECIAL COMMENT
> By Keith Olbermann
> Anchor, 'Countdown'
> MSNBC
> 
> 
> Updated: 7:29 p.m. CT Sept 25, 2006
> 
> The headlines about them are, of course, entirely
> wrong.
> 
> It is not essential that a past president, bullied
> and sandbagged by a
> monkey posing as a newscaster, finally lashed back.
> 
> It is not important that the current President's
> portable public
> chorus has described his predecessor's tone as
> "crazed."
> 
> Our tone should be crazed. The nation's freedoms are
> under assault by
> an administration whose policies can do us as much
> damage as al Qaida;
> the nation's marketplace of ideas is being poisoned
> by a propaganda
> company so blatant that Tokyo Rose would've quit.
> 
> Nonetheless. The headline is this:
> 
> Bill Clinton did what almost none of us have done in
> five years.
> 
> He has spoken the truth about 9/11, and the current
> presidential administration.
> 
> "At least I tried," he said of his own efforts to
> capture or kill
> Osama bin Laden. "That's the difference in me and
> some, including all
> of the right-wingers who are attacking me now. They
> had eight months
> to try; they did not try. I tried."
> 
> Thus in his supposed emeritus years has Mr. Clinton
> taken forceful and
> triumphant action for honesty, and for us; action as
> vital and as
> courageous as any of his presidency; action as
> startling and as
> liberating, as any, by any one, in these last five
> long years.
> 
> The Bush Administration did not try to get Osama bin
> Laden before 9/11.
> 
> The Bush Administration ignored all the evidence
> gathered by its predecessors.
> 
> The Bush Administration did not understand the Daily
> Briefing entitled
> "Bin Laden Determined To Strike in U.S."
> 
> The Bush Administration did not try.
> 
> Moreover, for the last five years one month and two
> weeks, the current
> administration, and in particular the President, has
> been given the
> greatest "pass" for incompetence and malfeasance in
> American history!
> 
> President Roosevelt was rightly blamed for ignoring
> the warning
> signs-some of them, 17 years old-before Pearl
> Harbor.
> 
> President Hoover was correctly blamed for-if not the
> Great Depression
> itself-then the disastrous economic steps he took in
> the immediate
> aftermath of the Stock Market Crash.
> 
> Even President Lincoln assumed some measure of
> responsibility for the
> Civil War-though talk of Southern secession had
> begun as early as
> 1832.
> 
> But not this president.
> 
> To hear him bleat and whine and bully at nearly
> every opportunity, one
> would think someone else had been president on
> September 11th, 2001 --
> or the nearly eight months that preceded it.
> 
> That hardly reflects the honesty nor manliness we
> expect of the executive.
> 
> 
> But if his own fitness to serve is of no true
> concern to him, perhaps
> we should simply sigh and keep our fingers crossed,
> until a grown-up
> takes the job three Januarys from now.
> 
> Except for this.
> 
> After five years of skirting even the most
> inarguable of facts-that he
> was president on 9/11 and he must bear some
> responsibility for his,
> and our, unreadiness, Mr. Bush has now moved,
> unmistakably and without
> conscience or shame, towards re-writing history, and
> attempting to
> make the responsibility, entirely Mr. Clinton's.
> 
> Of course he is not honest enough to do that
> directly.
> 
> As with all the other nefariousness and slime of
> this, our worst
> presidency since James Buchanan, he is having it
> done for him, by
> proxy.
> 
> Thus, the sandbag effort by Fox News Friday
> afternoon.
> 
> Consider the timing: the very weekend the National
> Intelligence
> Estimate would be released and show the Iraq war to
> be the fraudulent
> failure it is-not a check on terror, but fertilizer
> for it.
> 
> 
> The kind of proof of incompetence, for which the
> administration and
> its hyenas at Fox need to find a diversion, in a
> scapegoat.
> 
> It was the kind of cheap trick which would get a
> journalist fired-but
> a propagandist, promoted:
> 
> Promise to talk of charity and generosity; but
> instead launch into the
> lies and distortions with which the Authoritarians
> amon

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: No wonder Jesus told them their father was a murderer from the beginning

[E. C.]

i'll throw one:  IMPEACH!
not the first, by any stretch -- but a mountain is a
pile of stones -- & there are those who think we can
safely stash DU in a mountain for a million years --
bushCo will be but a blink in History's eye in a
hundred, unless we fail to stop them NOW!
E. Allen C.

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> and what can be done with this information
>  
> who wants to throw the first stone 
>  
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 9:16 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] Fwd: No wonder Jesus told them
> their father was a murderer from the beginning
> 
> 
>  
> War crime.
> -Kirk
> 
> No wonder Jesus told them their father was a
> murderer from the beginning
> 
> 
> UN says Israeli overuse of cluster bombs in Lebanon
> 'defies belief' 
> This is barbarism that no one can deny even those
> who support 
> Israel Quote
> 
> IMEMC & Agencies - Wednesday, 20 September 2006,
> 03:24 
> 
> Following on a statement by an Israeli commander
> that the Israeli 
> army fired at least 1.2 million cluster bomblets on
> Lebanon during 
> the war, the majority of which were fired when
> hostilities were 
> largely over, the United Nations humanitarian
> coordinator verified 
> that number and harshly criticized the Israeli use
> of cluster bombs. 
> 
> "The outrageous fact is that nearly all of these
> munitions were fired 
> in the last three to four days of the war," David
> Shearer, the United 
> Nations (UN) humanitarian coordinator in Lebanon,
> told a news 
> conference in Beirut Tuesday. 
> 
> The United Nations coordinator added, "Most bomblets
> were fired by 
> the time the conflict had been largely resolved in
> the form of 
> Resolution 1701", adding, "We know these (cluster)
> munitions have a 
> failure rate and it seems to me extraordinary that
> they were fired 
> off in the last hours of the war into areas where
> civilian 
> populations were known to be going," Shearer said. 
> 
> "For a humanitarian person, it defies belief that
> this would happen." 
> 
> Meanwhile, UN Emergency Relief Coordinator Jan
> Egeland has called 
> Israel "completely immoral" for using cluster bombs
> in residential 
> areas. 
> 
> Shearer, the UN humanitarian coordinator, said that
> Israeli 
> authorities have not given any explanation as to why
> they fired so 
> many cluster bombs just as the war was clearly
> drawing to a close, 
> nor have they responded to a UN Request for the map
> coordinates of 
> the cluster bomb strikes to hasten clearance
> efforts. 
> 
> It is estimated that 30-40% of the cluster bombs
> which were fired by 
> Israel failed to explode on impact, and remain a
> tremendous hazard 
> for civilians who have returned home. Since the
> war's end, at least 
> 15 civilians have been killed in encounters with
> unexploded cluster 
> bombs, and 83 wounded, of whom 23 are children. 
> 
> Only about 17,000 of the unexploded bomblets have
> been defused so 
> far, and the United Nations says it could take up to
> 30 months to 
> destroy most of the unexploded sub-munitions. The
> British-based 
> LandMine Action group has said clearing the south
> could take a 
> decade. 
> 
> Clearance efforts have so far focused on villages,
> schools and 
> playing areas, but will soon shift towards farmland,
> which provides 
> 70 percent of household incomes in the south, said
> Shearer. 
> 
> "The cluster munitions are stopping farmers from
> getting out to their 
> fields and resuming their farming activities," he
> said. 
> 
> The statements from the United Nations officials
> verified the 
> statement of the Israeli commander who resigned last
> week, who said 
> at that time that the army he commanded had "covered
> towns with 
> cluster bombs", admitting "what we did is insane and
> monstrous". Over 
> 1,000 civilians were killed during the 34-day
> Israeli invasion of 
> Lebanon in July, many of them by U.S.-supplied
> cluster bombs fired by 
> the Israeli military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why keep checking for Mail? The all-new Yahoo! Mail
> shows you when there are new messages. 
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>

Re: [Biofuel] Environmentalists Call for Freeze on Green House Gas-Producing

[E. C.]

I think it's him -- i got the same, a blank page

--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >Environmentalists Call forFreeze  on Green House
> Gas-Producing
> >Chemicals
> >
>
>http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1163418656
> 
> Nothing there. :-(
> 
> Is it me or you?
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Biofuel] CITCO & Joe Oil

[E. C.]

from what i remember from last winter (AM sources --
MsM gave the usual bushCo spin: subversive/terrorist
political act), the discount was from the state-owned
oil driller in Venezuela, on proviso it was
authentically passed on intact to Citgo-served
low-income retail heating-oil customers.  The rest of
Citgo product line & customers was unaffected, &
was/is approx. 2cpgUS above prevailing market average.
 Fair enough -- i've switched my gasoline purchases to
Citgo (tho i could probably qualify for HO discount, i
don't use dino products directly for heating).
E.A.C.
   
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>What do you think will be the mark-up of the
> distributors in distributing this 40% off oil from
> Venezuela? After all no good deed goes un-profited.
>  
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Sent: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 9:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] CITCO & Joe Oil
> 
> 
> The "devil" was put at bay perhaps.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> >From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >To: "biofuel" 
> >Subject: [Biofuel] CITCO & Joe Oil
> >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:14:20 -0500
> >
> >Hello All,
> >  I just saw part of a commercial on TV; major
> NY (USA) station.
> > "Nobody should be left out in the cold"
> >  It showed the CITGO insignia on an oil
> delivery truck   .
> >  Mother and daughter in a cold apartment
> > "Hi, I'm Joe Kennedy...  Thanks to the
> good people of 
> >Venezuela
> >you can get heating oil at 40% off."
> >  "Call me (phone #) at Joe's Oil."
> >
> >  Anybody know about this?
> >  I remember discussion about Venezuala's offer
> to supply heating oil 
> >at reduced rates to families in need, last winter,
> but it seemed to be shot 
> >down.
> >
> >Tom
> 
> 
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>
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> >
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> archives (50,000 
> >messages):
>
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> archives (50,000 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Fence of America

[E. C.]

the fence being built on the Mexican border is
partial, so it does neither (in or out); it is a sop
to the rethug base -- providing construction graft to
corporatocrat pals like Haliburton (as with the huge,
mostly-secret prison-camps/towns also being ignored by
MsM).  The one on the Canadian border is a
paper/convenience fence, since it's harder to tell
Canucks from WASPs by skin color or language.  The net
result of both (as with many policies of the illegal
administration in DC) is hardship & payment imposed on
the non-affluent 98% of the population (US) to
continue the wealth-accumulation of the 2%.  Amerika
is a broken dream-turned-nightmare that is likely only
to be awakened from by Gaia's Revenge (coming soon to
a giant flat-screen multiplex near us all).
E.A.C.

--- Fred Oliff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


-

Who gets riich when they build this new fence?  And is
there going to be one on the northern borders as well?
 

Fences are meant to keep people/animals in or keep
people/animals out?  Just asking...

I thought Al Gore's comment in "An Inconvenient Truth"
about terrorism vs the environment (and I cannot
recall the exact words), was very telling of the
present plight we all face. Which, after all, is
easier to fix?  Admitting there is a problem (has been
difficult), awareness that there is a problem is easy
(maybe not AS easy) but taking action (on the
environment) is just not very popular.  No video games
were made/sold in the resolution of global climate
change (warming).

two cents





-

From:  "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To:  biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To:  biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject:  Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:19:42 -0700
>I guess another question would be how this relates to
freedom?  And 
>why is it the richest country in the world cannot
come up with 
>universal health care.
>
>On another beat, what was that saying on the statue
of liberty?  I 
>wonder if that will have to be revisited concerning
our new fence in 
>the south.?
>
>Jim
>
>
>>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
>>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 07:23:50 -0600
>>
>>universal health care, unlike in the USA where it's
every man/women 
>>for
>>his/her self.
>>
>>JAMES PHELPS wrote:
>> > Wow that’s almost 4 to one worse. Also how do
Canada, Sweden and
>> > Iceland do so well coming from the free world?
>> >
>> > - Original Message -
>> > *From:* bob allen 
>> > *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> > 
>> > *Sent:* Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The Great
Thanksgiving Hoax
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Kirk McLoren wrote:
>> > > We have some very wealthy people but a huge
quantity of 
>>very
>> > poor. The
>> > > corporations sell us on "frredom" yet the
infant mortality 
>>in
>> > Belize is
>> > > better than here. Most Americans havent a
clue what it is 
>>like
>> > to live
>> > > elsewhere.
>> > > Spend an afternoon with the almanac and
look at 
>>statistics. Read
>> > em and
>> > > weep.
>> >
>> > I did and your off the mark. We do rank
poorly among 
>>European and
>> > some Asian countries but ahead of
>> > most poorer countries.
>> >
>> > (36th on a list at
>> > 
>>http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > see
http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html
>> >
>> > for example
>> >
>> > Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002
est.)
>> > United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births
(2002 est.)
>> >
>> >
>> > Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002
est.)
>> > Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births
(2002 est.)
>> > Sweden 3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002
est.)
>> > Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002
est.)
>> > India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002
est.)
>> > China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002
est.)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Kirk
>> > >
>> > > */Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/
>> > * wrote:
>> > >
>> > > On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock*
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > 
>> > > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Leo,
>> > > Here's something about the Thanksgiving
here in the USA. 
>>It
>> > > just appeared in
>> > > my email inbox. The story does have a
moral, whether it's
>> > > correct or not,
>> > > I not qualified to say.
>> > > Peace, D. Mindock
>> > >
>> > > 11/23/2006
>> > > *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax*
>> > > /by Richard J. Marbury/
>> > > snip
>> > > Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: humanure to humus

[E. C.]

kind of mixed messages so far, for Tom.  Yes, humanure
composting is frowned on in many jurisdictions, for
"public health standards" reasons, but those reg's.
are usually applicable to whole communities, not
individuals with closed-system applications,
especially rural land-owners.  The time-frame seems
unusually short also -- a long-running neighborhood
feud coming to a head?

Given the time constraint, sounds like Tom needs a
shark lawyer -- ACLU, perhaps? -- to protect his
rights from gov't. harrassment (on whose behalf?). 
Tom, is your property in the path of some development
or right-of-way?

On composting, Rodale Press published numerous tomes
some years back with good data -- JtF archives
probably has a wealth also, & more recent as well. 
Can you modify to meet standards in time, & without
spending an arm and leg?  Might have to install flush
system (unless they're going to surveil your
bathrooms, how do they prove you ain't using it?)  Go
guerilla -- but keep your head down awhile (have you
been bragging to neighbors?).  Remember -- palm trees
bend to ground-level horizontal when a hurricane blows
through, then stand back up when it's past.  :-)~

Good luck, 
E.A.C.

--- Frank Navarrete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In Florida, there is an extension service provided
> by the University of
> Florida which provides all kinds of information on
> farming and agriculture
> to the general public.  Does the local university
> have a program like that
> in your area?  If so, they can probably provide
> plenty of scientific
> evidence in your favor, especially if you can find a
> professor who is
> willing to help you.  Can the health dept. really
> prove it's human anyhow?
> 
> On 12/22/06, Keith Addison
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone help Tom?
> >
> > He's not a list member, but I'll refer him to any
> discussions here.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > All best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> > >From: "tom habasco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Subject: humanure to humus
> > >Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006
> > >
> > >Hello my name is Tom Habasco and I will be going
> into circuit court
> > >in order to defend my right to compost. I am the
> 5th generation of
> > >organic farming family.We have known of the
> benefits of this for
> > >many decades.
> > >  Unfortunately the local health people tell me
> it is illegal for me
> > >to compost humanure, as it is explained by Joseph
> Jenkins in his
> > >book.Now they have a signed order which makes my
> home and lifestyle
> > >illegal . They say that there is no scientific
> proof that composting
> > >humanure works or that it is safe. I personally
> have been growing
> > >fruits and veggie's for the plate to eat for many
> years. In my
> > >defense I must say I have never become ill from
> my gardens. I have
> > >no illness whatsoever and take no medication for
> anything.
> > >  How do we convince these youngsters at the so
> called "health
> > >dept's" that composting is safe and a much better
> approach to our
> > >handling of the environment than there septic
> approach?
> > >  I need proof and support that you may have to
> fight for my right
> > >to own property live on that property, farm my
> small gardens "
> > >under half acre of gardens" and compost including
> humanure.If I fail
> > >at this I will be ordered off my property and my
> home will be moved
> > >away by them at my cost.
> > > This is not an option , that is why it is of the
> utmost importance
> > >that I seek help from like minded people like you
> to help[ support
> > >me and my decision to make a lifestyle change and
> help the earth by
> > >becoming less dependant on fossil fuels like oil.
> > > Thank you for your time, if you can please
> respond before Jan 3 2007,
> >
> >
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> > messages):
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> >
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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[E. C.]

Hey Joe
When's the last time you saw the movie "Chinatown"
(Faye Dunaway was gorgeous)?
point: been there, done that -- as with most
corporatocracy scams -- but time's running out!  If We
The People don't get up on our hind legs and seriously
do things to change to a sustainable lifestyle SOON
(and the task is 'way too enormous to be entrusted to
the elites), it isn't going to matter: Ma Nature will
take care of it; she's the only one who has eternity
as a time-frame!
E. Allen Cartwright 

--- Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual
> goldmine in terms of 
> fresh water here in Canada.  In many places in the
> USA I've heard they 
> are already feeling the pinch for water and it is
> getting worse.  I'm 
> wondering if we could set something up where maybe
> we could use beavers 
> as a slave labour force in the water trade.  What do
> you say?
> 
> Joe
> 
> Andrew Netherton wrote:
> 
> >I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick
> return on investment
> >if they had done the study based on European fuel
> costs, and not our
> >cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North
> America.
> >
> >Andrew Netherton
> >
> >
> >On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup
> Cost Within 5 Years
> >>
> >><
>
http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news
> >
> >>
> >>Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the
> cost analysis
> >> in a story that examines the ownership costs and
> financial
> >>  benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story,
> titled
> >>  "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in
> the Annual April
> >>   Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.
> >>
> >>Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error
> involving
> >> the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles
> that, in the
> >> story, were compared to their conventionally
> powered
> >> counterparts. The error led the publication to
> overstate
> >>  how much extra money the hybrids will cost
> owners during
> >>   the first five years.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>full article
> >>
> >><
>
http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Get your daily alternative energy news
> >>
> >> Alternate Energy Resource Network
> >>   1000+ news sources-resources
> >> updated daily
> >>
> >>http://www.alternate-energy.net
> >>
> >>
> >>Next Generation Grid
>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
> >>
> >>
> >>Tomorrow-energy
> >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/
> >>
> >>
> >>Alternative Energy Politics
>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>___
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
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Re: [Biofuel] Biofuels Movement Is A Scam That Needs To Be Stopped

[E. C.]

Hi Alan;
   I mostly just read, here, having very little
expertise in any of the technicalities; however, i
feel compelled to speak up this time.
   This concerned citizen is not an idiot -- seems
misinformed (probably by the MM as an only source (?),
but raises some valid issues & is "stirring the pot"
of public discourse; that's a good thing.
   Biofuel, IMVHO, is only a tiny slice of
Sustainability, & at best buys us a little time to
adjust to the monumentalities of changing an entire
culture, world-wide -- time we desperately need (&
don't really have, according to what i hear from the
scientific community).  At worst, it is a chimera that
can allow most of us to go on with an unsustainable
life-style while feeling "good and righteous" about
it.
E. Allen C.

--- Alan Petrillo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
http://www.sptimes.com/2006/04/08/Opinion/Biofuels_movement_is_.shtml
> 
> Someone please educate this idiot.
> 
> 
> AP
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Garrison Keillor on Bush II

[E. C.]

Hey, Mike :-)~
   I'm with you on what to do w/the burning shrub of
Texas; I'd add that we send the rest of the PNAC cabal
that's destroying our country with him, and emphasize
the first sentence of your qquote "boys (& girls -
quite a few of them there, too) home", & do that
First!
   And i'm not even a Texan -- but we do have his kid
brother running things here in FL, where the BushCo 2
fiasco started!  Speaking of which -- more is needed
by way of activism than just not voting for them: 
look at what good it did in both elections that the
shrub (i've refused to call him by a stolen title
since 2000) & his cronies engineered.
   BTW -- i'm probably reiterating other list members'
responses; been busy, & still have several hundred
emails to catch up on -- i apologize if i'm being
redundant. 

All best
E. Allen C.

--- Mike McGinness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


-
A quote from the end says:
Let's bring the boys home. Otherwise, let's send this 
   man back to Texas and see what sort of work he is
capable of and let him start making a contribution
to   the world.


However, this Texan would rather see him sent to Iraq
to fight hisown war. We don't need him back in Texas,
and we can't leave him in Washingtoneither. By the way
I voted against the republicans and the Bushes
since1990, so don't blaim me.
Mike McGinness
 
"D. Mindock" wrote:Garrison Keillor, Tribune Media
Services
 Published March 15, 2006
 Spring arrived in New York last week for
previews,a
   sunny day with chill in the air, but you could
smell mud,
   and with a little imagination you could sort of
smell
   grass. I put on  a gray jacket, instead of
black,and went
   to the opera and saw Verdi's "Luisa Miller,">
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Re: [Biofuel] Grass for fuel

[E. C.]

.. all well & good; but i've read (somewhere) that
Butanol is greatly superior to ethanol as a fuel in IC
engines; that it is more eco-friendly; that it can be
produced from biomass, but the process is somewhat
more difficult than ethanol production .. anyone into
this area of investigation? 

--- MH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Jason and Katie wrote: 
> > having read this article, i seem to be missing
> some of the math...
> > this miscanthus is a rhizome, correct? and like
> other rhizomes (i.e.
> > strawberries) there is a good sized chunk of
> sugars and other carbon based
> > items stored in the root/stem system, also
> correct? so that would imply that
> > it STORES carbon and does not reintroduce all of
> it when burned, because it
> > stays in the field as the "jump start" for the
> next growing season. am i
> > correct in this extrapolation?
> 
> 
>  It sounds that way to me and the math I wondered
>  about is tonnage or tons compared to tonnes. 
>  The 25 ton/acre or 60 tonnes/hectare from
>  Giant Miscanthus compared to corn grain and
>  corn stover yields sounds pretty good if I look
>  only at the high end of the "10-30 tons per acre
>  dry weight each year".  This makes me wonder about
>  the dry ton yield per acre for cellulosic ethanol
>  compared to switchgrass or corn or sugar cane. 
> 
>  "Biofuels and Agriculture A Factsheet for Farmers"
>  4 page, 584k PDF
>
ftp://bioenergy.ornl.gov/pub/pdfs/farmerfactsheet.pdf
> 
>   - A bushel of corn (56 lb or 25 kg) yields
> about 2.5 US gallons (9.5 liters) of ethanol
>  - A ton (2000 lb or 980 kg) of corn stover will
> yield
> about 80-90 US gallons (300-340 liters) of
> ethanol,
>  - A ton of switchgrass will yield
> in the range 75-100 US gallons (285-380 liters) 
> 
>  "Biofuels from Switchgrass: Greener Energy
> Pastures"
>  http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html
>  "Bransby's 6-year average, 11.5 tons a year,
>  translates into about 1,150 gallons of ethanol per
> acre."
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Democracy

[E. C.]

ahhh .. Mr. Rogers w/attitude .. can I be your
neighbor?  I live in W's brother's fiefdom now ..
don't mind the sound of an axe, want a garden - and a
field of switchgrass, maybe .. be glad to share the
produce!
room for a wind turbine, andsome PV technology would
be nice, too  :-)

--- Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> viz straight represetative democracy - be careful
> what you wish for.  If 
> Saudi Arabia had a pure representational system
> they'd wind up with a 
> far more radical Wahab state.  Look at California's
> referendum system - 
> it's out of control.  It's created an ungovernable
> state.  Looks at 
> Arizona's "you pay no school taxes if you're over a
> certain age" 
> measure.  Great - I got my free education the hell
> with you.  Just keep 
> paying my social security.
> 
> Presumably we elect leaders to make decision in the
> best interest of the 
> governed.  I don't know that the founders ever
> expected the voters to be 
> so apathetic and so easily fooled.
> 
> And no, I don't think ANY of my neighbors would give
> up ANYTHING so that
> others might have a bit more.  In fact, I'm amazed
> at the lengths they 
> will go to to try to make me comply with their
> notion of what's proper.
> No woodstoves
> No older cars (yes, it looks fine, it's just an '89)
> Quotes:  "That garden really looks out of place -
> you're not going to do 
> that every year, are you?"  Yes, I am.
> "I wish you'd get rid of that woodpile, and it's
> noisy when you split 
> wood." Awww
> the list goes on...
> 
> 
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol,
> where people can
> > text message their votes every night  Sort of
> scary.  But is it
> > scarier to think of a democracy where the average
> person could vote on
> > each issue, or one where as many people follow TV
> shows as care about
> > their actual government
> > 
> > On 10/27/05, Joe Street
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >> Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a
> long way off topic.  I
> >>think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw
> certain conclusions about the
> >>people who put these monsters in office.  The
> problem is it's like going
> >>shopping.  You think you have choice but then you
> find out your money goes
> >>to the same people at the top regardless of the
> choices you thought you
> >>made.  The real problem is that the american
> lifestyle is not negotiable.
> >>How many here would willingly give up a bunch of
> affluence and convenience
> >>so that things might be a little more even in the
> world? Most of them are
> >>too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick.
> Even when the government
> >>gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies
> expect to be paid
> >>handsomley in the deal?  So what really is the
> will of it's people that the
> >>government should reflect?  Or is it really
> already doing that but in a way
> >>that upsets people but is really the only way left
> to maintain it? The oil
> >>is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle. 
> Control of world economy
> >>is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty
> things that aren't right.
> >> People are told they have democracy and they
> believe it but as you said
> >>voting once every four years is hardly democratic.
>  Representative
> >>governance works for the rich and hopefully they
> can take everyone along for
> >>the ride (because they need them).  Boy they must
> have some real belly
> >>laughs in private when they think about the common
> man and the illusion of
> >>freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would
> look like if we had a real
> >>democratic system.  If every important decision
> was put to a vote, sure it
> >>would slow things down but hell a lot of people I
> talk to seem to think
> >>things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that
> term, too quickly anyways.
> >>Surely electronic voting could make a system of
> national (and god forbid
> >>should I be so bold as to
> suggestinternational) referendum possible.  I
> >>know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on
> the web in terms of it's
> >>population but that does not mean that people
> could not have acces to a
> >>voting terminal. That must be a very scary
> thought.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> >>
> >> Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world
> understands that all
> >>americans don't support GW and his policies
> though... After all, we
> >>claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't
> the government by
> >>nature reflect the will of it's people.
> >>
> >>In reality, only my congressional representative
> actualy represents
> >>me, but neither of my senators does, nor my
> president or vice
> >>president. I actually voted, but I effectively
> have almost no vote in
> >>our government. Our system is set up for rule by a
> very narrow
> >>majority with no effective minority voice. But if
> you listen to our
> >>rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this.
> >>
> >>Z

Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)

[E. C.]

Keith

no blame here (i know how weasely crackers are) &
should have known better than to open a "no subject"
attmnt -- no harm done, my AV caught & refused the
virus -- but just to let you know & warn others. 
E. Allen :-)~

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

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> encoding and has been sent as a binary attachment.
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Re: [Biofuel] exclusive: Bush Plot To Bomb His Arab Ally

[E. C.]

Tom

what you're missing is the far-wider implications of
this disgrace:  that this bumbling neo-con
figurehead/posterboy illegally residing in (and
fronting for) the corporatocracy that IS the White
House (AND Congress, and soon the entire judiciary as
well) can, & does, entertain & feel enuf immunity to
bring up such insane notions for "how to deal w/anyone
who embarrasses him/them".  Makes the Valerie Plame
fiasco look like kids playing in a sandbox!  And, of
course, surely you've noticed that this latest bumble
has abruptly disappeared from MM (mainstream media).
E. Allen 

--- Tom Scheel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> [Massive Snip]
> >>Exclusive: Bush Plot To Bomb His Arab Ally
> >>
> >>Madness of war memo
> >>
> >>By Kevin Maguire And Andy Lines
> >>
> >>11/22/05 "The Mirror" -- -- PRESIDENT Bush
> planned to bomb Arab TV
> >>station al-Jazeera in friendly Qatar, a
> "Top
> Secret" No 10 memo
> >>reveals
> 
> I'm angry that Bush is rolling back environmental
> policy in favor of an extract and consume policy.
> I'm
> angry that we have made a hash of the war in Iraq
> and
> alieniated the US from the world community in the
> process. I'm livid about our energy "policy".
> 
> But I don't understand what is wrong with
> considering
> all options in war. This one was (wisely) discarded.
> Maybe it should not have made it up the to the
> president (ie been shot down at a lower level). Had
> he
> gone through with it, then yes, very bad decision.
> But
> in the context of how can we win/be successful with
> Bush'es Iraq adventure, I am all for creative and
> comprehensive thinking. And I am all for eliminating
> bone headed ideas from that list. To a casual
> observer, it looks like that is exactly what
> happened.
> 
> So what am I missing?
> 
> thanks
> Tom
> 
> Radiance Heating and Plumbing, Inc. (ROC
> 204149,204150)
> Tom Scheel
> 928-380-6294
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[E. C.]

Mike;

I was going to jump on this thread DBY, but got busy
--& Keith has already said most of what i was
thinking.  Only addng:
Big Oil is already acutely aware, as is the rest of
the corporatocracy -- but the grass-roots movement is
already almost at the tipping point, & BO is already
irrelevant & they know it (hence the gluttanous rush
to control & profit while they can).  When We The
People reach critical mass (world-wide, as Keith
points out) on sustainability, the paradigm will
shift... IF we're lucky & plucky & persistent &
willing to risk the perils of Civil Disobedience (as
voiced by others here), some of Y'All may survive into
that paradigm, & be able to pass a future to your
children & G'chidren.  I can wish (but i'm close to 70
-- so I doubt I'll be here for it, which saddens me)
AND i can do all i can to help -- Humanity is a worthy
experiment, in spite of all the flaws built in.  Keep
THAT faith, & emulate the dung-beetle, with your eyes
on the horizon.

Peace & Love
E. Allen 

--- Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Nobody really knows because nobody really monitors
> the news.  That's 
> another thing I would propose:  subscribe to a
> clipping service and write a
> custom Google search to stay on top of what's
> happening.  Track legislation.
> 
> The last thing I would propose is to become another
> NBB.
> 
> I was down in Pittsboro, NC  doing the tour, and
> there was a person 
> there who owned a large trap grease company in the
> Ga. area.  His 
> companion/driver let it slip that the powers that
> be, the "ol boys" in 
> the legislature were considering some better
> regulation on WVO.  To 
> wit:  making it neccessary to have a state license
> and "the right 
> equipment" to collect and store it.  Idle chatter? 
> I don't know.  But 
> it didn't sound good.
> 
> I'm envisioning something moveon.org, and it there
> is something on the 
> table putting on my monkey suit, rounding up a few
> of my more literate 
> crackpot BD friends and going down to talk to our
> representatives.  I 
> already have a few connection down there so we would
> at least get a 
> hearing.  If it were really critical I would start
> calling in media 
> favors - hope to get our side into the debate.  On
> the other hand, I 
> don't propose raising a stink if all is quiet.
> 
> Thomas Kelly wrote:
> 
> >Keith,
> > I'm not sure that Mike is proposing a national
> campaign complete with 
> >television commercials and lobbyists well-funded
> with $ to "grease the 
> >gears" of the political process. It sounds as
> though he might be willing to 
> >monitor proposals that could effect BD homebrewers
> here in the US and keep 
> >us posted. After all, the original message to this
> thread was:
> >
> > " caught a piece of something on the news
> about the US Guvmint wanting 
> >to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can "pay
> their fair share of highway 
> >maintenance costs."
> >Anyone know anything about this?"
> >
> >AP
> >
> >The first sentence has caused a great deal of
> discussion, but no one has 
> >answered the question:
> > "Anyone know anything about this?"
> >
> > Is there a proposal?
> > Who is making the proposal?
> > We've discussed taxes on fuel, dying fuel,etc.
> when the question asks 
> >about taxing alternate fuel vehicles.
> >Maybe there is a proposal to tax electric cars
> based on miles travelled. 
> >Commercial buses are taxed, after paying fuel tax,
> additional road use tax 
> >based on miles travelled in each state.
> >  The discussions have been great. I've been
> following them with 
> >interest. I would love to have someone keeping
> track of the way things are 
> >playing out at our national level to keep us
> informed, prepared, and with 
> >suggestions for a way to be proactive rather than
> reactive. This is a global 
> >list. There is a saying "Think global, act local".
> (or something like that)
> > I think it would be beneficial to have a group
> that monitors national 
> >and even local proposals, (here in the US) and I
> would be willing to pay a 
> >membership fee   or would it be better to say
> "make a donation" to the 
> >cause?
> >   Tom
> >- Original Message - 
> >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:02 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate
> fuel vehicles?
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Hello Walker and all
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I would be more than willing to pay and be a
> member of a group like
> >>>this.  It's not going to be long before the
> government or Exxon
> >>>tries to get in on the act and we need to be
> prepared.
> >>>  
> >>>
> >>We've been foreseeing it for six years at least,
> and we've already
> >>seen such moves in various places. But it's
> probably too late, the
> >>cat's out of the bag, we're right out of control,
> IMHO.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> Also at the local level, the worldwide co

Re: [Biofuel] More about Bhopal

[E. C.]

Dear Kurt;

I'm with you on the Bhopal atrocity -- and immediately
sent it on to everyone i know, including truthout.org
(an investigative story there could reach many
millions).  The saddest part of it is just how clearly
it shows the absolute amorality and subsequent
immorality of the global corporatohypocrisy that rules
strictly from the bottom line.  Exactly why (since
there are so many equally ghastly stories constantly
surfacing) we need to take back control of our lives,
and fight like hell to change the way hte world
operates!
   I'd offer a bromide for your gut if i knew of one
that might work (and that hasn't been compromised by
Big Pharma).

Allen

--- Kurt Nolte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've read some disgusting things before.
> I've seen some even more disgusting things. Helped
> clean them up, too.
> 
> And I have rarely had a problem with my stomach
> churning nearly as much as
> it is now. That... apalling atrocity and the
> unforgiveable practices since
> then are just, just... Unforgiveable? Inexcusable?
> Atrocious and hellish?
> 
> Damn English language is failing me at the moment.
> No word for how utterly
> disgusted reading that makes me.
> 
> Makes me glad I don't use pesticides or heavy
> cleaners already. And leaves
> me wondering how long it's going to go on.
> 
> -Kurt
> > ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 






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Re: [Biofuel] vehicle/people tracking

[E. C.]

Hi Doug, Mike, Michael, & All

yes, except for a couple points, we are at 1984:  the
old (still-functioning) 300D's, or other recycled
vehicles; ever'body  making their own fuel;
organically growing or buying what we EACH know is
organic; designing, building sustainable power systems
-- it's the EACH of us that thwarts Big Brother.  So
far, we are still consumers, with choices: I choose
not to own a new car, or a cell-phone, or the latest
TV (nothing there the Alternate Media can't give me
w/more honesty & less manipulative advert., anyway) --
etc., etc. -- but there are many millons of us
"Each's" -- as in another thread here, we are the 2nd
superpower, & growing exponentially.
Peak Oil is here -- and will make Big Brother
irrelevant!

Allen 

--- Doug Foskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 1984 here we are! (Oh, I forgot it is 2005! We are
> into it already!) I think 
> terrorism laws are just the beginning of population
> control.
> regards Doug
> (An Aussie, who has John Howard as Prime Minister:
> The shrub: as he is a small 
> bush!)
> 
> 
> On Friday 09 December 2005 1:55, Alt.EnergyNetwork
> wrote:
> > Wide spread tracking of people, vehicles and
> products will be everywhere
> > within a few years. RFID chips will soon be
> embedded in all product
> > packaging. Pet chipping ID becoming popular over
> the past several years has
> > just been approved for humans. Other tech either
> being implimented or
> > planned,... biometrics, eye scans, finger print
> scans and smart cards for
> > ID, national ID cards (with embedded  smart chips)
> EU wants to embed RFID
> > chips in the EURO enabling a record of all cash
> transactions that currency
> > note goes through. Consumers are photoed hundreds
> of times daily and
> > growing, once face recognition software becomes
> wide spread and interfaced
> > with the appropriate or inappropriate databases,
> there is no limit to the
> > possabilities for intelligence and monitoring of
> citizens.Add wireless,
> > bluetooth, geo person/vehicle tracking, purchasing
> habits through smart
> > credit/debit cards and soon RFID paper money and
> they pretty well know
> > where and what you are up to.  At least one
> appliance co's wants to have
> > RFID sensing technology in their washers and
> dryers that would fetch
> > information on washing instructions from an RFID
> chip embedded in the
> > garment. Many of these technologies are introduced
> in a consumer friendly
> > way such as geo tracked roadside assistance
> subscriptions for vehicles,
> > inventory tracking and anti theft systems all use
> similar tech. Lots of
> > other juice tech coming down the pipeline.
> >
> > Privacy had been eroding for a long time but it's
> a whole new world out
> > there.
> >
> > regards
> > tallex
> >
> > >  ---Original Message---
> > >  From: Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] vehicle tracking - pilot
> project now federally
> > > funded Sent: 08 Dec '05 13:47
> > >
> > >  We can be tracked by cell phones, closed
> circuit TV cameras on city
> > >  streets and soon I suspect, national ID cards
> under the REAL ID act.
> > > It's the legislation behind the technology that
> concerns me. After all,
> > > You don't need advanced technology to track
> someone. You only need
> > > someone with a willingness to watch you and the
> destruction of any
> > > limitations for that person to so (i.e. the USA
> Patriot Act).
> > >
> > >
> > >  Mike
> > >
> > >  _MIKE WEAVER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>_ wrote: Most
> new cars have a chip
> > >  in them that can report pretty much everything
> > >  the car does - like a "black box" flight
> recorder.
> > >  Another reason to have an old 300D!
> > >
> > >  Michael Redler wrote:
> > >  > Thanks Kirk.
> > >  >
> > >  > I will distribute as widely as I can!
> > >  >
> > >  > "Dubya" still has some "political capital"
> (as he likes to say). All
> > >  >  the work put into creating a culture of
> fear, leading to disturbing
> > >  > civil rights violations, makes me surprised
> that the "national
> > >  > security" card wasn't played.
> > >  >
> > >  > From the story: "No restrictions prevent
> police from continually
> > >  > monitoring, without a court order, the
> whereabouts of every vehicle on
> > >  > the road."
> > >  >
> > >  > Despite the new spin, it still strangely (or
> ominously) resembles the
> > >  > USA Patriot Act.
> > >  >
> > >  > Mike
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  > */Kirk McLoren /* wrote:
> > >  >
> > >  > ZDNet.com is running a story about a runaway
> idea of a
> > >  > [0]tracking automobiles via GPS. Not to be
> confused with the Canadian
> > >  > project geared towards [1]anti-speeding
> ideas, this one does in fact
> > >  > have the goal of tracking your vehicle. 'The
> U.S. Department of
> > >  > Transportation has been handing millions of
> dollars to state
> > >  > governments for
> > >  > GPS-tracking pilot projects  designed to
> track vehicles wherever they
> > >  > go.
> > >  > So far, W