Re: [Biofuel] Never seen wash problem
Hi Andrew; The acidic water may have encouraged rust. I have tried hot water and found it to be an improvement so I don't think that is it. I am no chemist but I understand that water is a polar molecule and oil is non polar so they normally don't like to hang out together but if there is something like a soap which has one end that likes water and the other end that likes oil it works something like a religious official who can join a man and a woman ( which also naturally don't like each other) and you have a problem ( in both cases of course) called an emulsion. Funny I never realized it before. God help me if I ever feel like getting emulsified again! There must have been something else in the water or fuel. It could be something small. Sometimes a small drop of surfactant for instance in a large amount of water can change it's property dramatically. How reliable is your water supply? Joe Tonomár András wrote: > Joe, > > the water is from the household water heater > and is not conditioned. > It sounds stupid but my first idea was that the water was too hot > > than I added 0,1l vinegar to break the emulsion. > Is this a reason for the brown powder? > > Andrew > > > - Original Message - > From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Never seen wash problem > > > Hi Andrew; > > Is the water you used conditioned by a water softener? > > Joe > > Tonomár András wrote: > > >>Dear List members, >> >> >>I need your ideas of what went worng with my washing >>I make 45 l batches for almost a year now and I have only had minor >>emulsion problems >>in the first wash that I could handle pretty good with hot water or some >>vinegar. >> >>I make BD from WVO with 2 stage base - base, and I stir wash it all the >>time. >> >>Today morning I started to do the 5th (last wash) on my batch. >>the previous (4th) wash water was see through but not chrystal clear. >>The fuel handeled stir washing very well - long time, and even high rpm. >> >>As I stired for the 5th what I got was a thick emulsion. >>I am shocked >> >>The wash water is from the household water heater, ph 7 and around 60 deg > > C > >>Overall tempreture of the mix is around 35 - 40 deg C. >> >>The emulsion separated in a couple hours and as I drained the wash water >>a brown layer remained on the inside wall of the wash tank. This looks >>like rust >>But it is not rust >> >>I just don't get it. Do you??? >> >>Never ever had such a problem before. >>Any ideas? >> >>Thanks >>Andrew >> >> >> >> >>___ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > messages): > >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Never seen wash problem
Joe, the water is from the household water heater and is not conditioned. It sounds stupid but my first idea was that the water was too hot than I added 0,1l vinegar to break the emulsion. Is this a reason for the brown powder? Andrew - Original Message - From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Never seen wash problem Hi Andrew; Is the water you used conditioned by a water softener? Joe Tonomár András wrote: > Dear List members, > > > I need your ideas of what went worng with my washing > I make 45 l batches for almost a year now and I have only had minor > emulsion problems > in the first wash that I could handle pretty good with hot water or some > vinegar. > > I make BD from WVO with 2 stage base - base, and I stir wash it all the > time. > > Today morning I started to do the 5th (last wash) on my batch. > the previous (4th) wash water was see through but not chrystal clear. > The fuel handeled stir washing very well - long time, and even high rpm. > > As I stired for the 5th what I got was a thick emulsion. > I am shocked > > The wash water is from the household water heater, ph 7 and around 60 deg C > > Overall tempreture of the mix is around 35 - 40 deg C. > > The emulsion separated in a couple hours and as I drained the wash water > a brown layer remained on the inside wall of the wash tank. This looks > like rust > But it is not rust > > I just don't get it. Do you??? > > Never ever had such a problem before. > Any ideas? > > Thanks > Andrew > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Never seen wash problem
Hello Tom,
Thanks for your ideas.
I always do a wash test prior to the first wash.
I use a 0,5l pet bottle and half - half BD, water.
I shake the hell out of it. Since my early test
batches, my fuel always passes the test with great result.
the same was with this particular problem
batch.
Since then I have finished the batch. Here are
the results:
After that failed 5th wash I conducted 3 more
washes with excellent separation (intensive stir wash)
But. on the wall of the wash thank there is some
kind of brown powder like layer which was not there before, and the wash water
is also clear but has a light brown color.
I suspect it to be rust but how The wash
tank was neat and clean before.
BD is a good anti rust anyway.
After drying I cleand the wash tank and it is
shynie again.
My only thought is that there was too much
chlorid is the water system.
But what is the brown powder???
I think I will not use this BD in my car (VW
PDTDI) rather I will put it into the forklift.
My next batch is on the way I hope that there
will be no problems with that one.
greetings,
Andrew
- Original Message -
From:
Thomas
Kelly
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 4:04
PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Never seen wash
problem
Andrew,
Did you do a wash
test ("shake test") before washing the biodiesel?
Do you perform
quality tests on your biodiesel?
(See JTF: "Quality Testing")
An emulsion at any point
in the wash, even "minor emulsion problems in the
first wash that I could handle pretty good with hot water or some
vinegar." suggest processing problems. I lean towards incomplete
reactions, as glycerine contamination and soaps produced during the
reaction would produce emulsions or a thick soap layer in the wash
test.
I've only had emulsions
occur in the wash, after having good wash test results, when I've had
incomplete reactions (BD failed quality tests).
The problem may be an incomplete reaction.
Quality test will tell.
Why did it show up in
5th wash, not first or second
I could only speculate.
Let me know how the
quality test goes,
Tom
- Original Message -
From:
Tonomár
András
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 12:58
PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Never seen wash
problem
Dear List members,
I need your ideas of
what went worng with my washing
I make 45 l batches for almost a year now and I
have only had minor emulsion problems
in the first wash that I could handle pretty
good with hot water or some vinegar.
I make BD from WVO with 2 stage base - base,
and I stir wash it all the time.
Today morning I started to do the 5th (last
wash) on my batch.
the previous (4th) wash water was see through
but not chrystal clear.
The fuel handeled stir washing very well - long
time, and even high rpm.
As I stired for the 5th what I got was a thick
emulsion.
I am shocked
The wash water is from the household water
heater, ph 7 and around 60 deg C
Overall tempreture of the mix is around 35 - 40
deg C.
The emulsion separated in a couple hours and as
I drained the wash water
a brown layer remained on the inside wall of
the wash tank. This looks like rust
But it is not rust
I just don't get it. Do you???
Never ever had such a problem
before.
Any ideas?
Thanks
Andrew
___Biofuel mailing
listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel
at Journey to
Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the
combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
___Biofuel mailing
listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel
at Journey to
Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the
combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz lis
Re: [Biofuel] Never seen wash problem
Hi Andrew; Is the water you used conditioned by a water softener? Joe Tonomár András wrote: > Dear List members, > > > I need your ideas of what went worng with my washing > I make 45 l batches for almost a year now and I have only had minor > emulsion problems > in the first wash that I could handle pretty good with hot water or some > vinegar. > > I make BD from WVO with 2 stage base - base, and I stir wash it all the > time. > > Today morning I started to do the 5th (last wash) on my batch. > the previous (4th) wash water was see through but not chrystal clear. > The fuel handeled stir washing very well - long time, and even high rpm. > > As I stired for the 5th what I got was a thick emulsion. > I am shocked > > The wash water is from the household water heater, ph 7 and around 60 deg C > > Overall tempreture of the mix is around 35 - 40 deg C. > > The emulsion separated in a couple hours and as I drained the wash water > a brown layer remained on the inside wall of the wash tank. This looks > like rust > But it is not rust > > I just don't get it. Do you??? > > Never ever had such a problem before. > Any ideas? > > Thanks > Andrew > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Never seen wash problem
Andrew,
Did you do a wash
test ("shake test") before washing the biodiesel?
Do you perform
quality tests on your biodiesel?
(See JTF: "Quality Testing")
An emulsion at any point
in the wash, even "minor emulsion problems in the first
wash that I could handle pretty good with hot water or some vinegar."
suggest processing problems. I lean towards incomplete reactions, as
glycerine contamination and soaps produced during the reaction would
produce emulsions or a thick soap layer in the wash test.
I've only had emulsions
occur in the wash, after having good wash test results, when I've had incomplete
reactions (BD failed quality tests).
The problem may be an incomplete reaction.
Quality test will tell.
Why did it show up in 5th
wash, not first or second
I could only speculate.
Let me know how the
quality test goes,
Tom
- Original Message -
From:
Tonomár
András
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 12:58
PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Never seen wash
problem
Dear List members,
I need your ideas of
what went worng with my washing
I make 45 l batches for almost a year now and I
have only had minor emulsion problems
in the first wash that I could handle pretty good
with hot water or some vinegar.
I make BD from WVO with 2 stage base - base, and
I stir wash it all the time.
Today morning I started to do the 5th (last wash)
on my batch.
the previous (4th) wash water was see through but
not chrystal clear.
The fuel handeled stir washing very well - long
time, and even high rpm.
As I stired for the 5th what I got was a thick
emulsion.
I am shocked
The wash water is from the household water
heater, ph 7 and around 60 deg C
Overall tempreture of the mix is around 35 - 40
deg C.
The emulsion separated in a couple hours and as I
drained the wash water
a brown layer remained on the inside wall of the
wash tank. This looks like rust
But it is not rust
I just don't get it. Do you???
Never ever had such a problem
before.
Any ideas?
Thanks
Andrew
___Biofuel mailing
listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel
at Journey to
Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the
combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Never seen wash problem
Dear List members, I need your ideas of what went worng with my washing I make 45 l batches for almost a year now and I have only had minor emulsion problems in the first wash that I could handle pretty good with hot water or some vinegar. I make BD from WVO with 2 stage base - base, and I stir wash it all the time. Today morning I started to do the 5th (last wash) on my batch. the previous (4th) wash water was see through but not chrystal clear. The fuel handeled stir washing very well - long time, and even high rpm. As I stired for the 5th what I got was a thick emulsion. I am shocked The wash water is from the household water heater, ph 7 and around 60 deg C Overall tempreture of the mix is around 35 - 40 deg C. The emulsion separated in a couple hours and as I drained the wash water a brown layer remained on the inside wall of the wash tank. This looks like rust But it is not rust I just don't get it. Do you??? Never ever had such a problem before. Any ideas? Thanks Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
