Re: [Biofuel] Seperating glycerine
You just add the total amount of NaOH in both batches. Usualy you know how much NaOH you used, so it does not matter if that is in 1 batch of more. The total amount of NaOH counts. Indicator ? Well, the ideal situation would be if you could get it to pH neutral, which is 7 At chemistry delivery companies they can advise you on that. If you don't know at all, you can also make trial and error batches in little glas tubes. I don'tn know the english word for it, but usualy like 20 milliliter. Start with say half a liter of your glycerin layer. Put 1 ml of acid in, shake very good en put 20 ml in the first tube. Than again 1 ml of acid in the half liter , mix very good and fill up the second tube. After maybe 10 or 20 tubes, let it sit on a warm place, wher separation goes easier. In this way you can figure out how much acid you need. Much easier would be : Keep track of the amount of NaOH you used and you can calculate how much acid you need. If I where you, I would try to get 98% H2SO4, which is by the way extremely dangerous stuff to work with, so be as carefull as possible. Phosporic acid is usually diluted and so you bring water in you mixture, which is what you probably dont want. Good luck ! - Original Message - From: john owens To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 6:31 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Seperating glycerine Message: 2Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 03:26:52 +0100From: Bioclaire Nederland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seperating Glycerine mistake ! To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgMessage-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks Pieter for the explanation it explains allot. I must get myself a chemistry book. If I used say two diffrent batches of glycerine with diffrent amounts of Naoh what would you do in that case or if you didnt know the exact amount of Naoh Is there an indicator I could use. Thank you, John I wrote :In grams :((3x1)+16+64) + (3x40) --> ((3x23)+16+64) + (3x18) -> 203 = 203So the reaction is equal now.That means you need one mole of H3PO4 + 3 moles of NaOH to react completely and split your residue. As you will understand now, I hope, you need 98 grams of H3PO4 for every 40 grams of NaOH you used.This should be : 98 grams of H3PO4 (is one mole) for 3 moles of NaOH which is 120 grams. Not 40 grams40 grams is 1 mole. I hope I can give you an explaination in english, because I am from Holland : You start with the amount of NaOH you used to make your batch of BD. For example 5 kg for 800 liters of BD. So you use 5 kg NaOH, which you will all find back in the bottom layer residue. 1 mole of NaOH weighs 23 + 16 + 1 makes 40 grams. 23 + 16 + 1 are the mole weights of the elements. You can find them in te periodic system of elements in every schoolbook of chemistry. Now you mix with phosphoric acid, but what percentage ? Phosphoric acid is H3PO4, which has a mole weight of (3x1) + 31 + (4x16) =98 grams What you should try to reach is a complete reaction between the acid and the NaOH The reaction would be : H3PO4 +NaOH --> Na3PO4 + H20 Now make it equal, so it gets to : H3PO4 + 3NaOH --> Na3PO4 + 3H2O In grams : ((3x1)+16+64) + (3x40) --> ((3x23)+16+64) + (3x18) -> 203 = 203 So the reaction is equal now. That means you need one mole of H3PO4 + 3 moles of NaOH to react completely and split your residue. As you will understand now, I hope, you need 98 grams of H3PO4 for every 40 grams of NaOH you used. Of course if you have a phosphoric acid of let's say 75%, it means that if you take 1 kilo of that, you have 750 grams of phosphoric acid. All together, if you don't take enough acid, you won't split your residue completely, but if you take too much acid, you will find the surplus somewhere in the FFA's , or maybe on the bottom, or maybe solved in either of them, or maybe. I hope I helped you with this. Greetings, Pieter - Original Message - From: john owens To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:13 PM Subject: [Biofuel] seperating Glycerine Hi, I did couple of tests on glycerin separation with the titration method on JTF with different results. Test One; 250ml byproduct 10ml phosphoric shacked vigorously There was separation with 3 layers about 60/30/10 within about 15 minutes. FFa Glycerin and fluffy white sodium phosphate Test two; 250ml byproduct 10ml phosphoric shaked vigorously I then added 5ml phosphoric shaked vigorously I added more phosphoric to see what would happen. there was separation with In about one minute with two layers about 50/50 wi
[Biofuel] Seperating glycerine
Message: 2Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 03:26:52 +0100From: Bioclaire Nederland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seperating Glycerine mistake ! To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgMessage-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks Pieter for the explanation it explains allot. I must get myself a chemistry book. If I used say two diffrent batches of glycerine with diffrent amounts of Naoh what would you do in that case or if you didnt know the exact amount of Naoh Is there an indicator I could use. Thank you, John I wrote :In grams :((3x1)+16+64) + (3x40) --> ((3x23)+16+64) + (3x18) -> 203 = 203So the reaction is equal now.That means you need one mole of H3PO4 + 3 moles of NaOH to react completely and split your residue. As you will understand now, I hope, you need 98 grams of H3PO4 for every 40 grams of NaOH you used.This should be : 98 grams of H3PO4 (is one mole) for 3 moles of NaOH which is 120 grams. Not 40 grams40 grams is 1 mole. I hope I can give you an explaination in english, because I am from Holland : You start with the amount of NaOH you used to make your batch of BD. For example 5 kg for 800 liters of BD. So you use 5 kg NaOH, which you will all find back in the bottom layer residue. 1 mole of NaOH weighs 23 + 16 + 1 makes 40 grams. 23 + 16 + 1 are the mole weights of the elements. You can find them in te periodic system of elements in every schoolbook of chemistry. Now you mix with phosphoric acid, but what percentage ? Phosphoric acid is H3PO4, which has a mole weight of (3x1) + 31 + (4x16) =98 grams What you should try to reach is a complete reaction between the acid and the NaOH The reaction would be : H3PO4 +NaOH --> Na3PO4 + H20 Now make it equal, so it gets to : H3PO4 + 3NaOH --> Na3PO4 + 3H2O In grams : ((3x1)+16+64) + (3x40) --> ((3x23)+16+64) + (3x18) -> 203 = 203 So the reaction is equal now. That means you need one mole of H3PO4 + 3 moles of NaOH to react completely and split your residue. As you will understand now, I hope, you need 98 grams of H3PO4 for every 40 grams of NaOH you used. Of course if you have a phosphoric acid of let's say 75%, it means that if you take 1 kilo of that, you have 750 grams of phosphoric acid. All together, if you don't take enough acid, you won't split your residue completely, but if you take too much acid, you will find the surplus somewhere in the FFA's , or maybe on the bottom, or maybe solved in either of them, or maybe. I hope I helped you with this. Greetings, Pieter - Original Message - From: john owens To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:13 PM Subject: [Biofuel] seperating Glycerine Hi, I did couple of tests on glycerin separation with the titration method on JTF with different results. Test One; 250ml byproduct 10ml phosphoric shacked vigorously There was separation with 3 layers about 60/30/10 within about 15 minutes. FFa Glycerin and fluffy white sodium phosphate Test two; 250ml byproduct 10ml phosphoric shaked vigorously I then added 5ml phosphoric shaked vigorously I added more phosphoric to see what would happen. there was separation with In about one minute with two layers about 50/50 with creamy brown stuff on the bottom. FFa on top I then added more phosphoric until I got separation of a reddish colour onbottom. this has being sitting for 4 hours or so. In the jar there is about (40/60 (ffa/glycerin) with a very fine white layer on the bottom. I made a mistake with the last mail. There is a greater amount of glycerin in test two and less ffa Could any one explain to me what is happening ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seperating Glycerine mistake !
I wrote :
In grams :
((3x1)+16+64) + (3x40)
--> ((3x23)+16+64) + (3x18) -> 203 = 203
So the reaction is equal now.
That means you need one mole of H3PO4 + 3 moles of
NaOH to react completely and split your residue.
As you will understand now, I hope, you need 98
grams of H3PO4 for every 40 grams of NaOH you
used.
This should be : 98 grams of H3PO4 (is one
mole) for 3 moles of NaOH which is 120 grams. Not 40 grams
40 grams is 1 mole.
I hope I can give you an explaination in english,
because I am from Holland :
You start with the amount of NaOH you used
to make your batch of BD.
For example 5 kg for 800 liters of
BD.
So you use 5 kg NaOH, which you will all find
back in the bottom layer residue.
1 mole of NaOH weighs 23 + 16 + 1 makes 40
grams.
23 + 16 + 1 are the mole weights of the elements.
You can find them in te periodic system of elements in every schoolbook of
chemistry.
Now you mix with phosphoric acid, but what
percentage ?
Phosphoric acid is H3PO4, which has a mole weight
of (3x1) + 31 + (4x16) =98 grams
What you should try to reach is a complete
reaction between the acid and the NaOH
The reaction would be : H3PO4 +NaOH --> Na3PO4
+ H20
Now make it equal, so it gets to :
H3PO4 + 3NaOH --> Na3PO4 + 3H2O
In grams :
((3x1)+16+64) + (3x40)
--> ((3x23)+16+64) + (3x18) -> 203 =
203
So the reaction is equal now.
That means you need one mole of H3PO4 + 3 moles
of NaOH to react completely and split your residue.
As you will understand now, I hope, you need 98
grams of H3PO4 for every 40 grams of NaOH you used.
Of course if you have a phosphoric acid of let's
say 75%, it means that if you take 1 kilo of that, you have 750 grams of
phosphoric acid.
All together, if you don't take enough acid, you
won't split your residue completely, but if you take too much acid, you will
find the surplus somewhere in the FFA's , or maybe on the bottom, or
maybe solved in either of them, or maybe.
I hope I helped you with this.
Greetings,
Pieter
- Original Message -
From:
john
owens
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:13
PM
Subject: [Biofuel] seperating
Glycerine
Hi,I did couple of tests on glycerin separation with the
titration methodon JTF with different results.Test One;250ml
byproduct10ml phosphoricshacked vigorouslyThere was
separation with 3 layers about 60/30/10 within about 15 minutes. FFa
Glycerin and fluffy white sodium phosphateTest two;250ml
byproduct10ml phosphoricshaked vigorouslyI then added 5ml
phosphoricshaked vigorouslyI added more phosphoric to
see what would happen. there was separation with In about one minute
with two layers about 50/50with creamy brown stuff on the bottom. FFa on
topI then added more phosphoric until I got separation of a reddish
colour onbottom. this has being sitting for 4 hours or so. In the jar
there is about (40/60 (ffa/glycerin)
with a very fine white layer on the bottom.
I made a mistake with the last mail.There is a greater amount
of glycerin in test two and less ffaCould any one explain to me what
is happening
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Re: [Biofuel] seperating Glycerine
I hope I can give you an explaination in english, because I am from Holland : You start with the amount of NaOH you used to make your batch of BD. For example 5 kg for 800 liters of BD. So you use 5 kg NaOH, which you will all find back in the bottom layer residue. 1 mole of NaOH weighs 23 + 16 + 1 makes 40 grams. 23 + 16 + 1 are the mole weights of the elements. You can find them in te periodic system of elements in every schoolbook of chemistry. Now you mix with phosphoric acid, but what percentage ? Phosphoric acid is H3PO4, which has a mole weight of (3x1) + 31 + (4x16) =98 grams What you should try to reach is a complete reaction between the acid and the NaOH The reaction would be : H3PO4 +NaOH --> Na3PO4 + H20 Now make it equal, so it gets to : H3PO4 + 3NaOH --> Na3PO4 + 3H2O In grams : ((3x1)+16+64) + (3x40) --> ((3x23)+16+64) + (3x18) -> 203 = 203 So the reaction is equal now. That means you need one mole of H3PO4 + 3 moles of NaOH to react completely and split your residue. As you will understand now, I hope, you need 98 grams of H3PO4 for every 40 grams of NaOH you used. Of course if you have a phosphoric acid of let's say 75%, it means that if you take 1 kilo of that, you have 750 grams of phosphoric acid. All together, if you don't take enough acid, you won't split your residue completely, but if you take too much acid, you will find the surplus somewhere in the FFA's , or maybe on the bottom, or maybe solved in either of them, or maybe. I hope I helped you with this. Greetings, Pieter - Original Message - From: john owens To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:13 PM Subject: [Biofuel] seperating Glycerine Hi,I did couple of tests on glycerin separation with the titration methodon JTF with different results.Test One;250ml byproduct10ml phosphoricshacked vigorouslyThere was separation with 3 layers about 60/30/10 within about 15 minutes. FFa Glycerin and fluffy white sodium phosphateTest two;250ml byproduct10ml phosphoricshaked vigorouslyI then added 5ml phosphoricshaked vigorouslyI added more phosphoric to see what would happen. there was separation with In about one minute with two layers about 50/50with creamy brown stuff on the bottom. FFa on topI then added more phosphoric until I got separation of a reddish colour onbottom. this has being sitting for 4 hours or so. In the jar there is about (40/60 (ffa/glycerin) with a very fine white layer on the bottom. I made a mistake with the last mail.There is a greater amount of glycerin in test two and less ffaCould any one explain to me what is happening ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] seperating Glycerine
Hi,I did couple of tests on glycerin separation with the titration methodon JTF with different results.Test One;250ml byproduct10ml phosphoricshacked vigorouslyThere was separation with 3 layers about 60/30/10 within about 15 minutes. FFa Glycerin and fluffy white sodium phosphateTest two;250ml byproduct10ml phosphoricshaked vigorouslyI then added 5ml phosphoricshaked vigorouslyI added more phosphoric to see what would happen. there was separation with In about one minute with two layers about 50/50with creamy brown stuff on the bottom. FFa on topI then added more phosphoric until I got separation of a reddish colour onbottom. this has being sitting for 4 hours or so. In the jar there is about (40/60 (ffa/glycerin) with a very fine white layer on the bottom. I made a mistake with the last mail.There is a greater amount of glycerin in test two and less ffaCould any one explain to me what is happening ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Seperating glycerine
Hi, I did couple of tests on glycerin separation with the titration method on JTF with different results. Test One; 250ml byproduct 10ml phosphoric shacked vigorously There was separation with 3 layers about 60/30/10 within about 15 minutes. FFa Glycerin and fluffy white sodium phosphate Test two; 250ml byproduct 10ml phosphoric shaked vigorously I then added 5ml phosphoric shaked vigorously I added more phosphoric to see what would happen. there was separation with In about one minute with two layers about 50/50 with creamy brown stuff on the bottom. FFa on top I then added more phosphoric until I got separation of a reddish colour on bottom. this has being sitting for 4 hours or so. In the jar there is about 60/40 (ffa/glycerin) with a very fine white layer on the bottom. There is a greater amount of glycerin in test two and less ffa Could any one explain to me what is happening? John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
