[Biofuel] glycerine

[Christopher Tan]

Hi to everyone:

Anyone in the Philippines interested in about a ton of glycerine cocktail.
Just haul it away and it's yours. I'm in Bulacan.

Best,
Chris



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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Keith Addison]

Thanks Joe.

>Hi Keith;
>
>Most often the process comes to 95% or more complete and that is 
>good enough for me ( personal choice) and doesn't give me wash 
>problems either.  Maybe 20% of the time it only gets to somewhere 
>around 90% and this is a problem.  It tends to be most likely to 
>happen when the feedstock titrates with a result of higher than 5 
>(this is titrating with KOH soln rather than NaOH) which is what I 
>consider borderline for going acid-base. Settling time is not less 
>than 12 hours for me. 
>Sorry about snipping the remainder of your post, was trying to save bandwidth.
>Off for the weekend now will check messages on Monday.
>Hope you are having a good weekend. And also to those about to start 
>the weekend.
>Tirah
>Joe
>
>Keith Addison wrote:
>
>>Hi Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi Keith;
>>>
>>>See my answers below.
>>>
>>>Keith Addison wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, settling time is free.
>>>>
>>>>Acid-base aside, there's the two-stage base-base process, which quite
>>>>a lot of people use and like, but otherwise why do more than one
>>>>stage? Do you mean two separate stages, with a methanol test in
>>>>between? So you process it twice? Plus extra methanol.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>No,- more like aiming for a single stage and then using the methanol
>>>test right after the settling period (after draining the glycerol of
>>>course) it gives you a chance to hit the reactor with another small
>>>dose of methoxide if it wasn't quite a complete reaction. The test
>>>also tells you how much to use.  There is no standardising the
>>>process here since the feed is never the same twice.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I don't think anybody's feedstock is ever the same twice, unless
>>they're getting it from a food factory with a standardised operation.
>>No restaurant cooks exactly the same food in the same way two days
>>running.
>>
>>Anyway, why should that mean changing anything but the amount of
>>catalyst needed? That's what titration is for, no? Certainly you can
>>standardise the other variables.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Rod decided to try a methanol test before washing, just for giggles
>>>and it turned out to be a heluva good idea. You know right away if
>>>you got a good reaction without having to waste all the time energy
>>>and water washing and drying before doing a quality test and then
>>>potenially having to reprocess.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Before you started using this extra stage, how often did you have to
>>reprocess? In your previous message it sounded like it happened
>>regularly, and it still sounds that way.
>>
>>
>>
>>>It turns out this looks just like a two step base -base type deal.
>>>but more like 90% of it in one step and then a polishing step.
>>>Sometimes if your process was good you don't need to do it, but if
>>>it turns out you were not near enough to completion it's nice to
>>>know right away. There's still methanol in the esters at that point
>>>(before washing) so it's advantageous to push the process further at
>>>that point if it is necessary.
>>>
>>>
>>>Joe
>>>
>>>
>>
>>This seems to raise more questions than provide answers. There were
>>also some other points in my reply to Tom, eg, how long do you let
>>the glycerin settle before draining it and embarking on the second
>>stage/polishing step or whatever?
>>
>>I'll put the rest of my message back, below.
>>
>>Please see my reply to Tom:
>>
>><http://tinyurl.com/3ccqhw>http://tinyurl.com/3ccqhw
>>[Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time
>>
>>Best
>>
>>Keith
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tom;
>>>>
>>>>It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
>>>>dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
>>>>the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
>>>>reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
>>>>this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
>>>>catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
>>>>and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
>>>>measured amount o

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Joe Street]

Hi Keith;

Most often the process comes to 95% or more complete and that is good 
enough for me ( personal choice) and doesn't give me wash problems 
either.  Maybe 20% of the time it only gets to somewhere around 90% and 
this is a problem.  It tends to be most likely to happen when the 
feedstock titrates with a result of higher than 5 (this is titrating 
with KOH soln rather than NaOH) which is what I consider borderline for 
going acid-base. Settling time is not less than 12 hours for me. 
Sorry about snipping the remainder of your post, was trying to save 
bandwidth.

Off for the weekend now will check messages on Monday.
Hope you are having a good weekend. And also to those about to start the 
weekend.

Tirah
Joe

Keith Addison wrote:


Hi Joe

 


Hi Keith;

See my answers below.

Keith Addison wrote:

   


Well, settling time is free.

Acid-base aside, there's the two-stage base-base process, which quite
a lot of people use and like, but otherwise why do more than one
stage? Do you mean two separate stages, with a methanol test in
between? So you process it twice? Plus extra methanol.


 

No,- more like aiming for a single stage and then using the methanol 
test right after the settling period (after draining the glycerol of 
course) it gives you a chance to hit the reactor with another small 
dose of methoxide if it wasn't quite a complete reaction. The test 
also tells you how much to use.  There is no standardising the 
process here since the feed is never the same twice.
   



I don't think anybody's feedstock is ever the same twice, unless 
they're getting it from a food factory with a standardised operation. 
No restaurant cooks exactly the same food in the same way two days 
running.


Anyway, why should that mean changing anything but the amount of 
catalyst needed? That's what titration is for, no? Certainly you can 
standardise the other variables.


 

Rod decided to try a methanol test before washing, just for giggles 
and it turned out to be a heluva good idea. You know right away if 
you got a good reaction without having to waste all the time energy 
and water washing and drying before doing a quality test and then 
potenially having to reprocess.
   



Before you started using this extra stage, how often did you have to 
reprocess? In your previous message it sounded like it happened 
regularly, and it still sounds that way.


 

It turns out this looks just like a two step base -base type deal. 
but more like 90% of it in one step and then a polishing step. 
Sometimes if your process was good you don't need to do it, but if 
it turns out you were not near enough to completion it's nice to 
know right away. There's still methanol in the esters at that point 
(before washing) so it's advantageous to push the process further at 
that point if it is necessary.



Joe
   



This seems to raise more questions than provide answers. There were 
also some other points in my reply to Tom, eg, how long do you let 
the glycerin settle before draining it and embarking on the second 
stage/polishing step or whatever?


I'll put the rest of my message back, below.

Please see my reply to Tom:

http://tinyurl.com/3ccqhw
[Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

Best

Keith


 


Hi Joe

   


Tom;

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
settling time in the long run.
 


Well, settling time is free.

Acid-base aside, there's the two-stage base-base process, which quite
a lot of people use and like, but otherwise why do more than one
stage? Do you mean two separate stages, with a methanol test in
between? So you process it twice? Plus extra methanol.

Why not do it in a single phase? Todd Swearingen once suggested this
here (discussing mixing pump sizes):

   


To judge an appropriate reaction time, pull an exact amount of fluid
(200 ml would suffice) out of the reaction stream every half-hour or
hour after an arbitrary initial ~1 hour reaction period.

Presuming that the contents of the reactor are kept homogenous from
the pump flow, the volume of the glycerol cocktail that settles out
of each sample will give you a fair gauge as to when your reaction
completed.

The suggestion would be to continu

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Keith Addison]

Hi Tom

>Keith,
>You wrote:
> > I think this is a misunderstanding. I didn't say what you say below,
> > "standardized; can't fail", and I didn't mean that standardising the
> > process means there's no need for tests,
>
> I apologize for a poor choice of wording suggesting a
>"misunderstanding".

Thankyou Tom, but mea culpa, I could have been clearer about it but 
it was late and I was whacked.

> You are unquestionably a proponent of quality testing.
> -Tweak the process to get consistently good BD.
> -How do you know you have succeeded in tweaking just right? QT
> -QT each batch
> Who did I learn this from?

:-) Who did I learn it from? Partly from some really bad examples 
that I think you're aware of, but mostly from the collective wisdom 
of the Biofuel list. To which you contribute a great deal. I guess we 
all owe each other eh?

>Re: Big lunch
>You and Robert inspired me last summer to grow more edibles.

Then Robert and I will go to heaven! (And so will you!)

>I had moved
>towards flowers. Now I grow more of what I eat, and I'm eating pretty good.
> A short while back there was discussion of growing fruits/veggies on
>lawns, side yards, etc. I mention what I had for lunch or dinner just to
>keep the thought alive. You can grow good food even on a little patch of
>land.
>The experience is priceless.

Indeed it is. Thankyou for keeping the thought alive, please don't stop.

>  >  poached Muscovy egg and stir-fried Swiss chard in the offing...
> M Mm Mm
> I'm getting hungry

:-) I'm getting sleepy! Later...

Best

Keith


>          Tom
>
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 3:53 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time
>
>
> > Hi Tom
> >
> >>Hi Keith,
> >>
> >> > Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
> >> > batches of oil,
> >>
> >>Ops.
> >>
> >> I took Joe's point to be: If you have to re-process it is possible to
> >>use info from the QT to determine how much (how little) methanol you'll
> >>need
> >>to use.
> >
> > I also took that point, there were others though. It's a useful
> > method, cheaper reprocessing, but I think we all agree that
> > reprocessing itself is to be avoided if at all possible. Or I thought
> > we did anyway.
> >
> >> I think that both Joe and myself have "standardize(d) the process"
> >>so that passing the QT is the rule, not the exception.
> >
> > That's not what Joe said:
> >
> >> >>It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
> >> >>dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
> >> >>the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
> >> >>reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
> >> >>this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
> >> >>catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
> >> >>and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
> >> >>measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
> >> >>estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
> >> >>accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
> >> >>neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
> >> >>the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
> >> >>settling time in the long run.
> >
> > "Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works
> > like a charm." That "if" makes it a little ambiguous, but the
> > "regularly" bit puts a question-mark on what's the rule and what's
> > the exception.
> >
> > "Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal."
> >
> > Less methanol notwithstanding, my question remains - why reprocess,
> > as a standard procedure, instead of avoiding the problem in the first
> > place?
> >
> > Could be wrong, but it sounds like Kenji and others might be doing
> > this rather than doing a titration - you know the old line: "There's
> > no need for titration, just use 6.25 g". And then using the methanol
&

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Keith Addison]

Hi Joe

>Hi Keith;
>
>See my answers below.
>
>Keith Addison wrote:
>
>>
>>Well, settling time is free.
>>
>>Acid-base aside, there's the two-stage base-base process, which quite
>>a lot of people use and like, but otherwise why do more than one
>>stage? Do you mean two separate stages, with a methanol test in
>>between? So you process it twice? Plus extra methanol.
>>
>>
>No,- more like aiming for a single stage and then using the methanol 
>test right after the settling period (after draining the glycerol of 
>course) it gives you a chance to hit the reactor with another small 
>dose of methoxide if it wasn't quite a complete reaction. The test 
>also tells you how much to use.  There is no standardising the 
>process here since the feed is never the same twice.

I don't think anybody's feedstock is ever the same twice, unless 
they're getting it from a food factory with a standardised operation. 
No restaurant cooks exactly the same food in the same way two days 
running.

Anyway, why should that mean changing anything but the amount of 
catalyst needed? That's what titration is for, no? Certainly you can 
standardise the other variables.

>Rod decided to try a methanol test before washing, just for giggles 
>and it turned out to be a heluva good idea. You know right away if 
>you got a good reaction without having to waste all the time energy 
>and water washing and drying before doing a quality test and then 
>potenially having to reprocess.

Before you started using this extra stage, how often did you have to 
reprocess? In your previous message it sounded like it happened 
regularly, and it still sounds that way.

>It turns out this looks just like a two step base -base type deal. 
>but more like 90% of it in one step and then a polishing step. 
>Sometimes if your process was good you don't need to do it, but if 
>it turns out you were not near enough to completion it's nice to 
>know right away. There's still methanol in the esters at that point 
>(before washing) so it's advantageous to push the process further at 
>that point if it is necessary.
>
>
>Joe

This seems to raise more questions than provide answers. There were 
also some other points in my reply to Tom, eg, how long do you let 
the glycerin settle before draining it and embarking on the second 
stage/polishing step or whatever?

I'll put the rest of my message back, below.

Please see my reply to Tom:

http://tinyurl.com/3ccqhw
[Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

Best

Keith


>Hi Joe
>
> >Tom;
> >
> >It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
> >dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
> >the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
> >reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
> >this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
> >catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
> >and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
> >measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
> >estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
> >accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
> >neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
> >the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
> >settling time in the long run.
>
>Well, settling time is free.
>
>Acid-base aside, there's the two-stage base-base process, which quite
>a lot of people use and like, but otherwise why do more than one
>stage? Do you mean two separate stages, with a methanol test in
>between? So you process it twice? Plus extra methanol.
>
>Why not do it in a single phase? Todd Swearingen once suggested this
>here (discussing mixing pump sizes):
>
> >To judge an appropriate reaction time, pull an exact amount of fluid
> >(200 ml would suffice) out of the reaction stream every half-hour or
> >hour after an arbitrary initial ~1 hour reaction period.
> >
> >Presuming that the contents of the reactor are kept homogenous from
> >the pump flow, the volume of the glycerol cocktail that settles out
> >of each sample will give you a fair gauge as to when your reaction
> >completed.
> >
> >The suggestion would be to continue the reaction for ~1/2 hour
> >beyond the point where your glyc cocktail volume stabilized.
>
>That works. Then, surely, you can standardise the process, with the
>only variable the amount of lye according to the titration level.
>Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
>batches of oil, and you have a clear idea of h

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Thomas Kelly]

Keith,
You wrote:
> I think this is a misunderstanding. I didn't say what you say below,
> "standardized; can't fail", and I didn't mean that standardising the
> process means there's no need for tests,

 I apologize for a poor choice of wording suggesting a 
"misunderstanding".

 You are unquestionably a proponent of quality testing.
 -Tweak the process to get consistently good BD.
 -How do you know you have succeeded in tweaking just right? QT
 -QT each batch
 Who did I learn this from?

Re: Big lunch
You and Robert inspired me last summer to grow more edibles. I had moved 
towards flowers. Now I grow more of what I eat, and I'm eating pretty good.
 A short while back there was discussion of growing fruits/veggies on 
lawns, side yards, etc. I mention what I had for lunch or dinner just to 
keep the thought alive. You can grow good food even on a little patch of 
land.
The experience is priceless.

  >  poached Muscovy egg and stir-fried Swiss chard in the offing...
 M Mm Mm
 I'm getting hungry
  Tom



- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


> Hi Tom
>
>>Hi Keith,
>>
>> > Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
>> > batches of oil,
>>
>>Ops.
>>
>> I took Joe's point to be: If you have to re-process it is possible to
>>use info from the QT to determine how much (how little) methanol you'll 
>>need
>>to use.
>
> I also took that point, there were others though. It's a useful
> method, cheaper reprocessing, but I think we all agree that
> reprocessing itself is to be avoided if at all possible. Or I thought
> we did anyway.
>
>> I think that both Joe and myself have "standardize(d) the process"
>>so that passing the QT is the rule, not the exception.
>
> That's not what Joe said:
>
>> >>It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
>> >>dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
>> >>the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
>> >>reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
>> >>this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
>> >>catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
>> >>and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
>> >>measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
>> >>estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
>> >>accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
>> >>neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
>> >>the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
>> >>settling time in the long run.
>
> "Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works
> like a charm." That "if" makes it a little ambiguous, but the
> "regularly" bit puts a question-mark on what's the rule and what's
> the exception.
>
> "Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal."
>
> Less methanol notwithstanding, my question remains - why reprocess,
> as a standard procedure, instead of avoiding the problem in the first
> place?
>
> Could be wrong, but it sounds like Kenji and others might be doing
> this rather than doing a titration - you know the old line: "There's
> no need for titration, just use 6.25 g". And then using the methanol
> test to try to fix the regularly ensuing disaster. A different
> version of that here in Japan is to put the stuff through a
> centrifuge, though the product still doesn't pass any quality test or
> standards test.
>
> What you describe is much the same as what I described, doing
> (whatever) tests during the processing, adjusting accordingly and
> conducting the whole thing as a single stage.
>
> From Joe's replies so far I can't tell if he (and Rod, and Kenji and
> many others) are doing it that way or not, but it seems not:
>
> Your question (and mine): "Don't you have to heat up the whole batch
> again? (Time and energy)"
>
> Joe's reply: "This is all done right after draining the glycerin.  I
> leave the heater on during this period.  Do the rough QT right away
> before wash test."
>
> Rough QT? Anyway, how long is

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Joe Street]

Hi Keith;

See my answers below.

Keith Addison wrote:



Well, settling time is free.

Acid-base aside, there's the two-stage base-base process, which quite 
a lot of people use and like, but otherwise why do more than one 
stage? Do you mean two separate stages, with a methanol test in 
between? So you process it twice? Plus extra methanol.
 

No,- more like aiming for a single stage and then using the methanol 
test right after the settling period (after draining the glycerol of 
course) it gives you a chance to hit the reactor with another small dose 
of methoxide if it wasn't quite a complete reaction. The test also tells 
you how much to use.  There is no standardising the process here since 
the feed is never the same twice.  Rod decided to try a methanol test 
before washing, just for giggles and it turned out to be a heluva good 
idea. You know right away if you got a good reaction without having to 
waste all the time energy and water washing and drying before doing a 
quality test and then potenially having to reprocess.  It turns out this 
looks just like a two step base -base type deal. but more like 90% of it 
in one step and then a polishing step.  Sometimes if your process was 
good you don't need to do it, but if it turns out you were not near 
enough to completion it's nice to know right away. There's still 
methanol in the esters at that point (before washing) so it's 
advantageous to push the process further at that point if it is necessary.



Joe

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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Thomas Kelly]

Joe,

>he took washed esters that passed the methanol test and added water >and 
(of course) no emulsion when agitate

 I used veg oil and water. (No emulsion)
 Added Glycerin (split)  . failed to separate (emulsion?)

I'll go back and test BD   .   will actually do measurements and 
everything.
   Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:45 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Hi Jan;

  Ok your post agrees with what Andres said.  So how do we explain Tom's 
experiment then?  To recap (Tom correct me if I miss something here) he took 
washed esters that passed the methanol test and added water and (of course) no 
emulsion when agitated. Whatever mono and diglycerides were in the esters were 
small but present I assume, but yet no emusion. Then added some small quantity 
of glycerol ( which had been separated from the soaps, FFA and salts) and 
agitated again and did get an emulsion.  I have had the feeling glycerin has 
usually been the cause of emulsion problems when I have had them.  No doubt a 
poorly reacted batch is much more likely to have the problem but is that really 
due to the glycerides or is it glycerin which hasn't settled.  Remember we 
started this discussion that the glycerin settles much slower in a poorly 
completed run.

  BTW as an addition to this discussion look what someone just posted on my 
yahoo group!  Using glycerin cocktail to BREAK an emulsion.  Now that's 
radical!!?? 

  http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/breakingemulsions/

  Joe

  Jan Warnqvist wrote:

Hi evereybody. I feel obliged to enter this discussion. Pure glycerine is 
not a good emulsifier due to the fact that there are three OH-groups and 
that the carbon s in the first  and third positions are surronded by two 
hydrogene atoms. This makes the glycerine hydrophilic in five places 
alltogether. However, the mono- and diglycerides are excellent emulsifiers. 
Only small amounts of these are sufficient to create stable emulsions. Would 
somebody agree with me on that ?

Jan Warnqvist
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Hi Tom

Hi Keith,

  Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
batches of oil,
Ops.

I took Joe's point to be: If you have to re-process it is possible to
use info from the QT to determine how much (how little) methanol you'll 
need
to use.
  I also took that point, there were others though. It's a useful
method, cheaper reprocessing, but I think we all agree that
reprocessing itself is to be avoided if at all possible. Or I thought
we did anyway.

I think that both Joe and myself have "standardize(d) the process"
so that passing the QT is the rule, not the exception.
  That's not what Joe said:

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
settling time in the long run.
  "Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works
like a charm." That "if" makes it a little ambiguous, but the
"regularly" bit puts a question-mark on what's the rule and what's
the exception.

"Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal."

Less methanol notwithstanding, my question remains - why reprocess,
as a standard procedure, instead of avoiding the problem in the first
place?

Could be wrong, but it sounds like Kenji and others might be doing
this rather than doing a titration - you know the old line: "There's
no need for titration, just use 6.25 g". And then using the methanol
test to try to fix the regularly ensuing disaster. A different
version of that here in Japan is to put the stuff through a
centrifuge, though the product still doesn't pass any quality test or
standards test.

What you describe is much the same as what I described, doing
(whatever) tests during the processing, adjusting accordingly and
conducting the whole thing as a single stage.

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Joe Street]

Jan Warnqvist wrote:


Hello Joe.
There were probably small amounts of mono- and diglycerides left in 
the biodiesel, and/or possibly soaps which together are excellent 
emulsifiers.


So then one would expect that the water added and shaken would emulsify 
due to those mono and di-glycerides, but it didn't happen.

What's up with that?

A strong acid will divide the glycerides into fatty acids and 
glycerine ,and the soaps into salts and fatty acids, which then goes 
into a fat phanse and an aquaeus phase, possibly with the salts in the 
bottom.'

Best regards
Jan

- Original Message -
*From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
*Sent:* Friday, August 10, 2007 3:45 PM
    *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

Hi Jan;

Ok your post agrees with what Andres said.  So how do we explain
Tom's experiment then?  To recap (Tom correct me if I miss
something here) he took washed esters that passed the methanol
test and added water and (of course) no emulsion when agitated.
Whatever mono and diglycerides were in the esters were small but
present I assume, but yet no emusion. Then added some small
quantity of glycerol ( which had been separated from the soaps,
FFA and salts) and agitated again and did get an emulsion.  I have
had the feeling glycerin has usually been the cause of emulsion
problems when I have had them.  No doubt a poorly reacted batch is
much more likely to have the problem but is that really due to the
glycerides or is it glycerin which hasn't settled.  Remember we
started this discussion that the glycerin settles much slower in a
poorly completed run.

BTW as an addition to this discussion look what someone just
posted on my yahoo group!  Using glycerin cocktail to BREAK an
emulsion.  Now that's radical!!??

http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/breakingemulsions/

Joe

Jan Warnqvist wrote:

Hi evereybody. I feel obliged to enter this discussion. Pure glycerine is 
not a good emulsifier due to the fact that there are three OH-groups and 
that the carbon s in the first  and third positions are surronded by two 
hydrogene atoms. This makes the glycerine hydrophilic in five places 
alltogether. However, the mono- and diglycerides are excellent emulsifiers. 
Only small amounts of these are sufficient to create stable emulsions. Would 
somebody agree with me on that ?


Jan Warnqvist
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


 


Hi Tom

   


Hi Keith,

 


Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
batches of oil,
   


Ops.

   I took Joe's point to be: If you have to re-process it is possible to
use info from the QT to determine how much (how little) methanol you'll 
need

to use.
 


I also took that point, there were others though. It's a useful
method, cheaper reprocessing, but I think we all agree that
reprocessing itself is to be avoided if at all possible. Or I thought
we did anyway.

   


   I think that both Joe and myself have "standardize(d) the process"
so that passing the QT is the rule, not the exception.
 


That's not what Joe said:

   


It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
settling time in the long run.
 


"Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works
like a charm." That "if" makes it a little ambiguous, but the
"regularly" bit puts a question-mark on what's the rule and what's
the exception.

"Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal."

Less methanol notwithstanding, my question remains - why reprocess,
as a standard procedure, instead of avoiding the problem in the first
place?

Could be wrong, but it sounds like Kenji and others might be doing
this rather than doing a titration - you know the old line: "There's
no need for titration, just use 6.25 g". And then using the methanol
t

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Thomas Kelly]

Hello to All,
 This is an attempt to get things in focus    for myself at least.

I think this topic started with Re:"Biodiesel Quality Test"
On 8/7/07  Mike W. stated that he allows his batches to settle for a week 
before washing; No problems with wash.

On 8/7/07
I agreed, stated an observation and asked question: 
> I have been wondering about something.
>When I started making BD it would never pass the methanol quality test.
>I inevitably got emulsions in the wash. Now, when I make BD for my 
>"oil"-fired boiler, I use only about 16-17% (vol/vol) of methanol. The BD 
>>does not pass the quality test, but I don't have the same emulsion >problems. 
>Is it because I let it settle longer  (24+ hours vs 6 - 8 hrs)?
>Does the presence of a small amount of glycerine/soaps make that >much of a 
>difference when trying to wash BD from an incomplete >reaction?

On 8/7/07  Joe Street wrote:
Rod believes that glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction.  I 
believe he is right.  And yes it only takes a little glycerin to emulsify your 
wash.

Question:
 If Mono- and Di- Glycerides are such effective emulsifiers, and they don't 
settle out with the glycerin mix, why don't they emulsify my poor quality 
(heating system)  BD? It seems that something in the glycerine cocktail (that 
does settle out) is the culpret.
 
Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello Joe.
There were probably small amounts of mono- and diglycerides left in the 
biodiesel, and/or possibly soaps which together are excellent emulsifiers. A 
strong acid will divide the glycerides into fatty acids and glycerine ,and the 
soaps into salts and fatty acids, which then goes into a fat phanse and an 
aquaeus phase, possibly with the salts in the bottom.'
Best regards
Jan
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 3:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Hi Jan;

  Ok your post agrees with what Andres said.  So how do we explain Tom's 
experiment then?  To recap (Tom correct me if I miss something here) he took 
washed esters that passed the methanol test and added water and (of course) no 
emulsion when agitated. Whatever mono and diglycerides were in the esters were 
small but present I assume, but yet no emusion. Then added some small quantity 
of glycerol ( which had been separated from the soaps, FFA and salts) and 
agitated again and did get an emulsion.  I have had the feeling glycerin has 
usually been the cause of emulsion problems when I have had them.  No doubt a 
poorly reacted batch is much more likely to have the problem but is that really 
due to the glycerides or is it glycerin which hasn't settled.  Remember we 
started this discussion that the glycerin settles much slower in a poorly 
completed run.

  BTW as an addition to this discussion look what someone just posted on my 
yahoo group!  Using glycerin cocktail to BREAK an emulsion.  Now that's 
radical!!?? 

  http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/breakingemulsions/

  Joe

  Jan Warnqvist wrote:

Hi evereybody. I feel obliged to enter this discussion. Pure glycerine is 
not a good emulsifier due to the fact that there are three OH-groups and 
that the carbon s in the first  and third positions are surronded by two 
hydrogene atoms. This makes the glycerine hydrophilic in five places 
alltogether. However, the mono- and diglycerides are excellent emulsifiers. 
Only small amounts of these are sufficient to create stable emulsions. Would 
somebody agree with me on that ?

Jan Warnqvist
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Hi Tom

Hi Keith,

  Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
batches of oil,
Ops.

I took Joe's point to be: If you have to re-process it is possible to
use info from the QT to determine how much (how little) methanol you'll 
need
to use.
  I also took that point, there were others though. It's a useful
method, cheaper reprocessing, but I think we all agree that
reprocessing itself is to be avoided if at all possible. Or I thought
we did anyway.

I think that both Joe and myself have "standardize(d) the process"
so that passing the QT is the rule, not the exception.
  That's not what Joe said:

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
settling time in the long run.
  "Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works
like a charm." That "if" makes it a little ambiguous, but the
"regularly" bit puts a question-mark on what's the rule and what's
the exception.

"Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal."

Less methanol notwithstanding, my question remains - why reprocess,
as a standard procedure, instead of avoiding the problem in the first
place?

Could be wrong, but it sounds like Kenji and others might be doing
this rather than doing a titration - you know the old line: "There's
no need for titration, just use 6.25 g". And then using the methanol
test to try to fix the regularly ensuing disaster. A different
version of that here in Japan is to put the stuff through a
centrifuge, though the product still doesn't pass any quality test or
standards test.

What you describe is much the same as what I described, doing
(whatever) tests during the processing, adjusting accordingly and
conducting the whole thing as a

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Andres Secco]

Hi all,
I just saw the tom experiment results. Think the small quantity of glycerol 
increased the viscosity and that helps to stabilize the suspension. But I don 
think this is stable for a long time or if it were an stable emulsion. More 
likely a suspension wichis like an emulsion but not stable for long time.
I did it with water and oil and some happened but nothing to say I have an 
emulsion here. After a few hours got separated.
I agree with Jan that a poorly completed reaction releases mono and 
di-glicerydes wich have a strong emulsifier capacity and can trap any polar 
substances in the BD phase, not only glycerine but also proteins and methanol.  
When I saw the firs time the BD production with a friend in israel he added 
salt to break any emulsion trace. He left the batch for several days. Now I 
left for two complete days and all passes the QT test.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:45 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Hi Jan;

  Ok your post agrees with what Andres said.  So how do we explain Tom's 
experiment then?  To recap (Tom correct me if I miss something here) he took 
washed esters that passed the methanol test and added water and (of course) no 
emulsion when agitated. Whatever mono and diglycerides were in the esters were 
small but present I assume, but yet no emusion. Then added some small quantity 
of glycerol ( which had been separated from the soaps, FFA and salts) and 
agitated again and did get an emulsion.  I have had the feeling glycerin has 
usually been the cause of emulsion problems when I have had them.  No doubt a 
poorly reacted batch is much more likely to have the problem but is that really 
due to the glycerides or is it glycerin which hasn't settled.  Remember we 
started this discussion that the glycerin settles much slower in a poorly 
completed run.

  BTW as an addition to this discussion look what someone just posted on my 
yahoo group!  Using glycerin cocktail to BREAK an emulsion.  Now that's 
radical!!?? 

  http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/breakingemulsions/

  Joe

  Jan Warnqvist wrote:

Hi evereybody. I feel obliged to enter this discussion. Pure glycerine is 
not a good emulsifier due to the fact that there are three OH-groups and 
that the carbon s in the first  and third positions are surronded by two 
hydrogene atoms. This makes the glycerine hydrophilic in five places 
alltogether. However, the mono- and diglycerides are excellent emulsifiers. 
Only small amounts of these are sufficient to create stable emulsions. Would 
somebody agree with me on that ?

Jan Warnqvist
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Hi Tom

Hi Keith,

  Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
batches of oil,
Ops.

I took Joe's point to be: If you have to re-process it is possible to
use info from the QT to determine how much (how little) methanol you'll 
need
to use.
  I also took that point, there were others though. It's a useful
method, cheaper reprocessing, but I think we all agree that
reprocessing itself is to be avoided if at all possible. Or I thought
we did anyway.

I think that both Joe and myself have "standardize(d) the process"
so that passing the QT is the rule, not the exception.
  That's not what Joe said:

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
settling time in the long run.
  "Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works
like a charm." That "if" makes it a little ambiguous, but the
"regularly" bit puts a question-mark on what's the rule and what's
the exception.

"Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal."

Less methanol notwithstanding, my question remains - why reprocess,
as a standard procedure, instead of avoiding the problem in the first
place?

Could be wrong, but it sounds like Kenji and others might be doing
this rather than doing a titration - you kno

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Joe Street]

Hi Jan;

Ok your post agrees with what Andres said.  So how do we explain Tom's 
experiment then?  To recap (Tom correct me if I miss something here) he 
took washed esters that passed the methanol test and added water and (of 
course) no emulsion when agitated. Whatever mono and diglycerides were 
in the esters were small but present I assume, but yet no emusion. Then 
added some small quantity of glycerol ( which had been separated from 
the soaps, FFA and salts) and agitated again and did get an emulsion.  I 
have had the feeling glycerin has usually been the cause of emulsion 
problems when I have had them.  No doubt a poorly reacted batch is much 
more likely to have the problem but is that really due to the glycerides 
or is it glycerin which hasn't settled.  Remember we started this 
discussion that the glycerin settles much slower in a poorly completed run.


BTW as an addition to this discussion look what someone just posted on 
my yahoo group!  Using glycerin cocktail to BREAK an emulsion.  Now 
that's radical!!??


http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/breakingemulsions/

Joe

Jan Warnqvist wrote:

Hi evereybody. I feel obliged to enter this discussion. Pure glycerine is 
not a good emulsifier due to the fact that there are three OH-groups and 
that the carbon s in the first  and third positions are surronded by two 
hydrogene atoms. This makes the glycerine hydrophilic in five places 
alltogether. However, the mono- and diglycerides are excellent emulsifiers. 
Only small amounts of these are sufficient to create stable emulsions. Would 
somebody agree with me on that ?


Jan Warnqvist
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


 


Hi Tom

   


Hi Keith,

 


Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
batches of oil,
   


Ops.

   I took Joe's point to be: If you have to re-process it is possible to
use info from the QT to determine how much (how little) methanol you'll 
need

to use.
 


I also took that point, there were others though. It's a useful
method, cheaper reprocessing, but I think we all agree that
reprocessing itself is to be avoided if at all possible. Or I thought
we did anyway.

   


   I think that both Joe and myself have "standardize(d) the process"
so that passing the QT is the rule, not the exception.
 


That's not what Joe said:

   


It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
settling time in the long run.
 


"Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works
like a charm." That "if" makes it a little ambiguous, but the
"regularly" bit puts a question-mark on what's the rule and what's
the exception.

"Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal."

Less methanol notwithstanding, my question remains - why reprocess,
as a standard procedure, instead of avoiding the problem in the first
place?

Could be wrong, but it sounds like Kenji and others might be doing
this rather than doing a titration - you know the old line: "There's
no need for titration, just use 6.25 g". And then using the methanol
test to try to fix the regularly ensuing disaster. A different
version of that here in Japan is to put the stuff through a
centrifuge, though the product still doesn't pass any quality test or
standards test.

What you describe is much the same as what I described, doing
(whatever) tests during the processing, adjusting accordingly and
conducting the whole thing as a single stage.

From Joe's replies so far I can't tell if he (and Rod, and Kenji and
many others) are doing it that way or not, but it seems not:

Your question (and mine): "Don't you have to heat up the whole batch
again? (Time and energy)"

Joe's reply: "This is all done right after draining the glycerin.  I
leave the heater on during this period.  Do the rough QT right away
before wash test."

Rough QT? Anyway, how long is it settling before he drains the glyc?

   


   I run a QT towards the end of the reaction bec

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Keith Addison]

>Andres,
> >Emulsifiers contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in 
>the molecule.
>
>In mono- and di- glycerides the glycerin supplies the hydrophilic zone
>and the fatty acid chain(s) supply the hydrophobic ("lipophilic") zones.
>
>The -OH groups in the glycerin give it regions of charge making it 
>hydrophilic.
>In an aquous solution wouldn't these groups rotate towards the water 
>exposing  hydrocarbons (hydrophobic) to the BD?
>
> I just tried forming an emulsion with veg oil and tap water. 
>The oil rose to the top.
> I added glycerine that was split from the glycerine cocktail 
>using Phosphoric Acid. It has no soaps, FFA's, methanol or 
>KOH. I shook the bottle and the oil and water did not separate 
>.  an emulsion?
>I then added some vinegar. The "emulsion" broke.
>
>Glycerine seems to be an emulsifier.
>Am I missing something?
> Tom

Maybe it's worth trying it again and seeing how long it stays emulsified.

Best

Keith


>- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Andres Secco
>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:55 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time
>
>Joe,
>For the sake of precise concepts, gliceryn is NOT an emulsifier. 
>Emulsifiers contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in the 
>molecule. Which is an emulsifier is the partially reacted mono or 
>di-glicerides, but in a crystal clear liquid there are not emulsions 
>or dispersions.
>Glycerin is dissolved in the BD and separates from the liquid BD 
>phase with time.
>
>- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Joe Street
>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:30 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time
>
>Tom;
>
>It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried 
>dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove 
>the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the 
>reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course 
>this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base 
>catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts 
>and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the 
>measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to 
>estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose 
>accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume 
>neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if 
>the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you 
>settling time in the long run.
>
>Big skies
>Joe
>
>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>
>>Joe,
>>
>> I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my 
>>boiler (failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had 
>>settled for almost 10 hrs.
>>That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but 
>>noticable, bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after 
>>the initial 10 hrs of settling.
>>
>> I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with.
>>
>> If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from 
>>incomplete vs complete reactions, it would answer the question I 
>>asked about getting emulsions when I washed low quality BD after 
>>letting it settle overnight, but not getting emulsions when it 
>>settled for a few days to a week.
>> It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a 
>>friend. He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out 
>>of the BD given time. He has taken to going with about 16% 
>>(vol/vol) of methanol in his batches.
>>His logic:
>>  "Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
>>  "The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the 
>>BD overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
>> "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get 
>>emulsions, therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."
>>
>>More likely:
>> Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week of 
>>settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small amount 
>>of glycerine compound the emulsifying effects of the unreacted 
>>glycerides   .   Yes?
>>
>>By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"
>>  His answer:  "Oops, I forgot."
>>
>> Thanks Joe    and Rod . fo

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hi evereybody. I feel obliged to enter this discussion. Pure glycerine is 
not a good emulsifier due to the fact that there are three OH-groups and 
that the carbon s in the first  and third positions are surronded by two 
hydrogene atoms. This makes the glycerine hydrophilic in five places 
alltogether. However, the mono- and diglycerides are excellent emulsifiers. 
Only small amounts of these are sufficient to create stable emulsions. Would 
somebody agree with me on that ?

Jan Warnqvist
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


> Hi Tom
>
>>Hi Keith,
>>
>> > Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
>> > batches of oil,
>>
>>Ops.
>>
>> I took Joe's point to be: If you have to re-process it is possible to
>>use info from the QT to determine how much (how little) methanol you'll 
>>need
>>to use.
>
> I also took that point, there were others though. It's a useful
> method, cheaper reprocessing, but I think we all agree that
> reprocessing itself is to be avoided if at all possible. Or I thought
> we did anyway.
>
>> I think that both Joe and myself have "standardize(d) the process"
>>so that passing the QT is the rule, not the exception.
>
> That's not what Joe said:
>
>> >>It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
>> >>dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
>> >>the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
>> >>reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
>> >>this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
>> >>catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
>> >>and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
>> >>measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
>> >>estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
>> >>accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
>> >>neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
>> >>the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
>> >>settling time in the long run.
>
> "Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works
> like a charm." That "if" makes it a little ambiguous, but the
> "regularly" bit puts a question-mark on what's the rule and what's
> the exception.
>
> "Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal."
>
> Less methanol notwithstanding, my question remains - why reprocess,
> as a standard procedure, instead of avoiding the problem in the first
> place?
>
> Could be wrong, but it sounds like Kenji and others might be doing
> this rather than doing a titration - you know the old line: "There's
> no need for titration, just use 6.25 g". And then using the methanol
> test to try to fix the regularly ensuing disaster. A different
> version of that here in Japan is to put the stuff through a
> centrifuge, though the product still doesn't pass any quality test or
> standards test.
>
> What you describe is much the same as what I described, doing
> (whatever) tests during the processing, adjusting accordingly and
> conducting the whole thing as a single stage.
>
> From Joe's replies so far I can't tell if he (and Rod, and Kenji and
> many others) are doing it that way or not, but it seems not:
>
> Your question (and mine): "Don't you have to heat up the whole batch
> again? (Time and energy)"
>
> Joe's reply: "This is all done right after draining the glycerin.  I
> leave the heater on during this period.  Do the rough QT right away
> before wash test."
>
> Rough QT? Anyway, how long is it settling before he drains the glyc?
>
>> I run a QT towards the end of the reaction because I do not want to
>>re-process.
>
> Indeed not.
>
>>It takes me a few minutes and I like the certainty of knowing
>>the BD is good before I pump it into my settling tank.
>> If the test should fail when I'm making a batch for my car, I could 
>> use
>>Joe's suggestion to help me better approximate the amount of methanol to
>>add.
>>
>> If the process has been standardized, why bother?
>
> I think this is a misunderstanding. I didn't say what you say below,
> "standardized; can't fail", and I didn't mean that standardis

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Keith Addison]

t into
>the settling tank I could have avoided re-processing.
> While condensed water in bottom-of-the-barrel methanol or recovered
>methanol, contaminated caustic, etc may rear their ugly head in 1L test
>batches prior to running a batch, I think I would still run a QT prior to
>settling.
>
> >>Big skies
> >
> > :-) And broad horizons.
>
>Big  lunch to you,
>I just had a garden pizza with Brocolli, zucchini, green peppers, sliced
>tomato, and chopped (v. mild) hot peppers.
>
>
>MMm Mm

:-) Great Tom! A big lunch definitely helps when it comes to broad 
horizons. But quite often it's quicker just to amble on out and eat a 
bit of garden in the meantime, and pin one's hopes on a big dinner. 
On the other hand, I think there just might be some poached Muscovy 
egg and stir-fried Swiss chard in the offing... Man, it's going to be 
hard ever to go back to the city life.

All best

Keith


>Tom
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 3:36 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time
>
>
> > Hi Joe
> >
> >>Tom;
> >>
> >>It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
> >>dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
> >>the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
> >>reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
> >>this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
> >>catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
> >>and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
> >>measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
> >>estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
> >>accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
> >>neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
> >>the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
> >>settling time in the long run.
> >
> > Well, settling time is free.
> >
> > Acid-base aside, there's the two-stage base-base process, which quite
> > a lot of people use and like, but otherwise why do more than one
> > stage? Do you mean two separate stages, with a methanol test in
> > between? So you process it twice? Plus extra methanol.
> >
> > Why not do it in a single phase? Todd Swearingen once suggested this
> > here (discussing mixing pump sizes):
> >
> >>To judge an appropriate reaction time, pull an exact amount of fluid
> >>(200 ml would suffice) out of the reaction stream every half-hour or
> >>hour after an arbitrary initial ~1 hour reaction period.
> >>
> >>Presuming that the contents of the reactor are kept homogenous from
> >>the pump flow, the volume of the glycerol cocktail that settles out
> >>of each sample will give you a fair gauge as to when your reaction
> >>completed.
> >>
> >>The suggestion would be to continue the reaction for ~1/2 hour
> >>beyond the point where your glyc cocktail volume stabilized.
> >
> > That works. Then, surely, you can standardise the process, with the
> > only variable the amount of lye according to the titration level.
> > Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
> > batches of oil, and you have a clear idea of how your test-batch
> > processing relates to your full-scale processing, life should be
> > easier and there shouldn't be any batches failing the QT.
> >
> > What did I miss?
> >
> >>Big skies
> >
> > :-) And broad horizons.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >
> >>Joe
> >>
> >>Thomas Kelly wrote:
> >>
> >>>Joe,
> >>>
> >>> I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my
> >>>boiler (failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had
> >>>settled for almost 10 hrs.
> >>>That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but
> >>>noticable, bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after
> >>>the initial 10 hrs of settling.
> >>>
> >>> I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with.
> >>>
> >>> If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from
> >>>incomplete vs complete reactions, it would answer the question I
> >>>asked about getting emulsions when I 

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Thomas Kelly]

Hi Keith,

> Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
> batches of oil,

Ops.

 I took Joe's point to be: If you have to re-process it is possible to 
use info from the QT to determine how much (how little) methanol you'll need 
to use.

 I think that both Joe and myself have "standardize(d) the process"
so that passing the QT is the rule, not the exception.
 I run a QT towards the end of the reaction because I do not want to 
re-process. It takes me a few minutes and I like the certainty of knowing 
the BD is good before I pump it into my settling tank.
 If the test should fail when I'm making a batch for my car, I could use 
Joe's suggestion to help me better approximate the amount of methanol to 
add.

 If the process has been standardized, why bother? As you say:

>there shouldn't be any batches failing the QT.

 I've had a few failed batches in the past year. It seems to happen when 
I think I have it all figured out; standardized; can't fail. On one occasion 
the pump was making a bit of a "funny" noise when I came back to turn it 
off. Turned out a bit of paper towel or something had gotten into the 
impeller; inadequate agitation? Had I tested the BD before pumping it into 
the settling tank I could have avoided re-processing.
 While condensed water in bottom-of-the-barrel methanol or recovered 
methanol, contaminated caustic, etc may rear their ugly head in 1L test 
batches prior to running a batch, I think I would still run a QT prior to 
settling.

>>Big skies
>
> :-) And broad horizons.

Big  lunch to you,
I just had a garden pizza with Brocolli, zucchini, green peppers, sliced 
tomato, and chopped (v. mild) hot peppers.


MMm Mm
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


> Hi Joe
>
>>Tom;
>>
>>It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
>>dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
>>the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
>>reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
>>this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base
>>catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts
>>and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
>>measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
>>estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
>>accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
>>neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
>>the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
>>settling time in the long run.
>
> Well, settling time is free.
>
> Acid-base aside, there's the two-stage base-base process, which quite
> a lot of people use and like, but otherwise why do more than one
> stage? Do you mean two separate stages, with a methanol test in
> between? So you process it twice? Plus extra methanol.
>
> Why not do it in a single phase? Todd Swearingen once suggested this
> here (discussing mixing pump sizes):
>
>>To judge an appropriate reaction time, pull an exact amount of fluid
>>(200 ml would suffice) out of the reaction stream every half-hour or
>>hour after an arbitrary initial ~1 hour reaction period.
>>
>>Presuming that the contents of the reactor are kept homogenous from
>>the pump flow, the volume of the glycerol cocktail that settles out
>>of each sample will give you a fair gauge as to when your reaction
>>completed.
>>
>>The suggestion would be to continue the reaction for ~1/2 hour
>>beyond the point where your glyc cocktail volume stabilized.
>
> That works. Then, surely, you can standardise the process, with the
> only variable the amount of lye according to the titration level.
> Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy
> batches of oil, and you have a clear idea of how your test-batch
> processing relates to your full-scale processing, life should be
> easier and there shouldn't be any batches failing the QT.
>
> What did I miss?
>
>>Big skies
>
> :-) And broad horizons.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>>Joe
>>
>>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>
>>>Joe,
>>>
>>> I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my
>>>boiler (failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had
>>>settled for almost 10 hrs.
>>>That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but
&g

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Thomas Kelly]

Come on Joe!
You're giving me more credit than I deserve. I didn't measure   .  the old 
little of this and a little of that method. I did use a graduated pipette to 
draw the glycerine out of the bottle.
If it's important I can do it again. I have plenty of tap water and quite a bit 
of veg oil.

By the way, I also tried it with isopropanol (similar in size to glycerine but 
with only one -OH group) It seemed to work there as well.

   Tom

  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 3:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Kewl Tom;

  You are ans experimentalist like myself.  How much oil/ water and how many 
drops of glycerol did it take to create the emulsion?

  Joe

  Thomas Kelly wrote:

Andres,
 >Emulsifiers contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in the 
molecule.

In mono- and di- glycerides the glycerin supplies the hydrophilic zone
and the fatty acid chain(s) supply the hydrophobic ("lipophilic") zones.

The -OH groups in the glycerin give it regions of charge making it 
hydrophilic.
In an aquous solution wouldn't these groups rotate towards the water 
exposing  hydrocarbons (hydrophobic) to the BD?

 I just tried forming an emulsion with veg oil and tap water. The oil 
rose to the top. 
 I added glycerine that was split from the glycerine cocktail using 
Phosphoric Acid. It has no soaps, FFA's, methanol or KOH. I shook the bottle 
and the oil and water did not separate   .  an emulsion?
I then added some vinegar. The "emulsion" broke.

Glycerine seems to be an emulsifier.
Am I missing something?
 Tom



  - Original Message - 
  From: Andres Secco 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Joe,
  For the sake of precise concepts, gliceryn is NOT an emulsifier. 
Emulsifiers contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in the molecule. 
Which is an emulsifier is the partially reacted mono or di-glicerides, but in a 
crystal clear liquid there are not emulsions or dispersions.
  Glycerin is dissolved in the BD and separates from the liquid BD phase 
with time.
- Original Message - 
From: Joe Street 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


Tom;

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried dosing 
the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove the glycerin it 
doesn't take much to get the last bit of the reaction to go and settle out the 
remaining glycerin.  Of course this is well known already.  Kenji and many 
others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol 
test of sorts and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the 
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to estimate the 
percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose accordingly with the 
stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume neutral oil for this calculation.  
Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works like a 
charm.  Will save you settling time in the long run.

Big skies
Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:

  Joe,

   I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my 
boiler (failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had settled for 
almost 10 hrs. 
  That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but 
noticable, bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after the initial 
10 hrs of settling.

   I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with. 

   If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from 
incomplete vs complete reactions, it would answer the question I asked about 
getting emulsions when I washed low quality BD after letting it settle 
overnight, but not getting emulsions when it settled for a few days to a week.
   It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a 
friend. He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out of the BD 
given time. He has taken to going with about 16% (vol/vol) of methanol in his 
batches.
  His logic:
"Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
"The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the 
BD overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
   "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get 
emulsions, therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."

  More li

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Joe Street]

Kewl Tom;

You are ans experimentalist like myself.  How much oil/ water and how 
many drops of glycerol did it take to create the emulsion?


Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Andres,
 >Emulsifiers contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in 
the molecule.
 
In mono- and di- glycerides the glycerin supplies the hydrophilic zone

and the fatty acid chain(s) supply the hydrophobic ("lipophilic") zones.
 
The -OH groups in the glycerin give it regions of charge making it 
hydrophilic.
In an aquous solution wouldn't these groups rotate towards the water 
exposing  hydrocarbons (hydrophobic) to the BD?
 
 I just tried forming an emulsion with veg oil and tap water. The 
oil rose to the top. 
 I added glycerine that was split from the glycerine cocktail 
using Phosphoric Acid. It has no soaps, FFA's, methanol or 
KOH. I shook the bottle and the oil and water did not separate   
.  an emulsion?

I then added some vinegar. The "emulsion" broke.
 
Glycerine seems to be an emulsifier.

Am I missing something?
 Tom
 




- Original Message -
*From:* Andres Secco <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
*Sent:* Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:55 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

Joe,
For the sake of precise concepts, gliceryn is NOT an emulsifier.
Emulsifiers contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in the
molecule. Which is an emulsifier is the partially reacted mono or
di-glicerides, but in a crystal clear liquid there are not
emulsions or dispersions.
Glycerin is dissolved in the BD and separates from the liquid BD
phase with time.

- Original Message -
*From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
*Sent:* Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:30 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

Tom;

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever
tried dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After
you remove the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last
bit of the reaction to go and settle out the remaining
glycerin.  Of course this is well known already.  Kenji and
many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal.
You can do a methanol test of sorts and the unreacted oil will
settle out.  Then you can use the measured amount of unreacted
oil in the methanol test vial to estimate the percentage
unreacted oil in your batch and dose accordingly with the
stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume neutral oil for
this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if the batch
fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
settling time in the long run.

Big skies
Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Joe,
 
 I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined

for my boiler (failed QT; but very little residue dropped
out). It had settled for almost 10 hrs.
That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but
noticable, bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out
after the initial 10 hrs of settling.
 
 I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with.
 
 If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from

incomplete vs complete reactions, it would answer the
question I asked about getting emulsions when I washed low
quality BD after letting it settle overnight, but not getting
emulsions when it settled for a few days to a week.
 It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have
with a friend. He seems to think that unreacted glycerides
will settle out of the BD given time. He has taken to going
with about 16% (vol/vol) of methanol in his batches.
His logic:
  "Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
  "The emulsions I get in the first wash after
settling the BD overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
 "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get
emulsions, therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."
 
More likely:

 Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a
week of settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even
a small amount of glycerine compound the emulsifying effects
of the unreacted glycerides   .   Yes?
 
By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"

   

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Thomas Kelly]

Andres,
 >Emulsifiers contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in the 
molecule.

In mono- and di- glycerides the glycerin supplies the hydrophilic zone
and the fatty acid chain(s) supply the hydrophobic ("lipophilic") zones.

The -OH groups in the glycerin give it regions of charge making it hydrophilic.
In an aquous solution wouldn't these groups rotate towards the water exposing  
hydrocarbons (hydrophobic) to the BD?

 I just tried forming an emulsion with veg oil and tap water. The oil rose 
to the top. 
 I added glycerine that was split from the glycerine cocktail using 
Phosphoric Acid. It has no soaps, FFA's, methanol or KOH. I shook the bottle 
and the oil and water did not separate   .  an emulsion?
I then added some vinegar. The "emulsion" broke.

Glycerine seems to be an emulsifier.
Am I missing something?
 Tom



  - Original Message - 
  From: Andres Secco 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Joe,
  For the sake of precise concepts, gliceryn is NOT an emulsifier. Emulsifiers 
contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in the molecule. Which is an 
emulsifier is the partially reacted mono or di-glicerides, but in a crystal 
clear liquid there are not emulsions or dispersions.
  Glycerin is dissolved in the BD and separates from the liquid BD phase with 
time.
- Original Message - 
From: Joe Street 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:30 AM
    Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


Tom;

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried dosing the 
batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove the glycerin it doesn't 
take much to get the last bit of the reaction to go and settle out the 
remaining glycerin.  Of course this is well known already.  Kenji and many 
others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol 
test of sorts and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the 
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to estimate the 
percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose accordingly with the 
stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume neutral oil for this calculation.  
Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works like a 
charm.  Will save you settling time in the long run.

Big skies
Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:

  Joe,

   I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my boiler 
(failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had settled for almost 10 
hrs. 
  That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but noticable, 
bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after the initial 10 hrs of 
settling.

   I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with. 

   If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from incomplete vs 
complete reactions, it would answer the question I asked about getting 
emulsions when I washed low quality BD after letting it settle overnight, but 
not getting emulsions when it settled for a few days to a week.
   It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a 
friend. He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out of the BD 
given time. He has taken to going with about 16% (vol/vol) of methanol in his 
batches.
  His logic:
"Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
"The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the BD 
overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
   "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get emulsions, 
therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."

  More likely:
   Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week of 
settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small amount of 
glycerine compound the emulsifying effects of the unreacted glycerides   .  
 Yes?

  By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"
His answer:  "Oops, I forgot."

   Thanks Joe    and Rod . for bringing this to my attention
   A push to make a lot of BD for heat is just around the corner. It 
might be best to include more settling time in the schedule. 

 Tom
  

- Original Message - 
From: Joe Street 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test


Hey Tom;

Take a sample from your fuel after settling 6-8 hrs and set it asside 
in a mason jar for t

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Keith Addison]

Hi Joe

>Tom;
>
>It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried 
>dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove 
>the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the 
>reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course 
>this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight base 
>catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts 
>and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the 
>measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to 
>estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose 
>accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume 
>neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if 
>the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you 
>settling time in the long run.

Well, settling time is free.

Acid-base aside, there's the two-stage base-base process, which quite 
a lot of people use and like, but otherwise why do more than one 
stage? Do you mean two separate stages, with a methanol test in 
between? So you process it twice? Plus extra methanol.

Why not do it in a single phase? Todd Swearingen once suggested this 
here (discussing mixing pump sizes):

>To judge an appropriate reaction time, pull an exact amount of fluid 
>(200 ml would suffice) out of the reaction stream every half-hour or 
>hour after an arbitrary initial ~1 hour reaction period.
>
>Presuming that the contents of the reactor are kept homogenous from 
>the pump flow, the volume of the glycerol cocktail that settles out 
>of each sample will give you a fair gauge as to when your reaction 
>completed.
>
>The suggestion would be to continue the reaction for ~1/2 hour 
>beyond the point where your glyc cocktail volume stabilized.

That works. Then, surely, you can standardise the process, with the 
only variable the amount of lye according to the titration level. 
Then if you do one-litre test batches first, especially with iffy 
batches of oil, and you have a clear idea of how your test-batch 
processing relates to your full-scale processing, life should be 
easier and there shouldn't be any batches failing the QT.

What did I miss?

>Big skies

:-) And broad horizons.

Keith



>Joe
>
>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>
>>Joe,
>>
>> I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my 
>>boiler (failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had 
>>settled for almost 10 hrs.
>>That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but 
>>noticable, bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after 
>>the initial 10 hrs of settling.
>>
>> I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with.
>>
>> If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from 
>>incomplete vs complete reactions, it would answer the question I 
>>asked about getting emulsions when I washed low quality BD after 
>>letting it settle overnight, but not getting emulsions when it 
>>settled for a few days to a week.
>> It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a 
>>friend. He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out 
>>of the BD given time. He has taken to going with about 16% 
>>(vol/vol) of methanol in his batches.
>>His logic:
>>  "Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
>>  "The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the 
>>BD overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
>> "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get 
>>emulsions, therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."
>>
>>More likely:
>> Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week of 
>>settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small amount 
>>of glycerine compound the emulsifying effects of the unreacted 
>>glycerides   .   Yes?
>>
>>By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"
>>  His answer:  "Oops, I forgot."
>>
>> Thanks Joe    and Rod . for bringing this to my attention
>> A push to make a lot of BD for heat is just around the corner. 
>>It might be best to include more settling time in the schedule.
>> 
>>Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>- Original Message -
>>From: Joe Street
>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:02 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
>>
>>Hey Tom;
>>
>>Take a sample from your fuel after settling 6-8 hrs and set it 
>>asside in a mason jar for the longer period and see what settles 
>>out.  Rod believes that glycerin settles slower in a poorly 
>>completed reaction.  I believe he is right.  And yes it only takes 
>>a little glycerin to emulsify your wash.
>>
>>Joe
>>
>>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>
>>>Mike,
>>>I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes  much easier. I doubt
>>>that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I
>>>don't think the unreacted oil will settle out.
>>>
>>>But:
>>>I have been wond

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Joe Street]

Ooops I gues you are right technically glycerin is not an emulsifier so 
I shouldn't have used that term.  Thanks for correcting me.  It does 
however have a big effect on the ability of water and esters to turn 
into an emulsion.  I said that because as you know when you get glycerin 
even a tiny amount on your skin and go to wash it off it has that super 
slippery feel which means the surface tension of the water has been 
reduced dramatically.  I think that's why it makes emulsions, perhaps 
the proper term is " surfactant" then?


Joe

Andres Secco wrote:


Joe,
For the sake of precise concepts, gliceryn is NOT an emulsifier. 
Emulsifiers contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in the 
molecule. Which is an emulsifier is the partially reacted mono or 
di-glicerides, but in a crystal clear liquid there are not emulsions 
or dispersions.
Glycerin is dissolved in the BD and separates from the liquid BD phase 
with time.


- Original Message -
*From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
*Sent:* Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:30 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

Tom;

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried
dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove
the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the
reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course
this is well known already.  Kenji and many others do straight
base catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol test of
sorts and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to
estimate the percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose
accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume
neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this regularly if
the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will save you
settling time in the long run.

Big skies
Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Joe,
 
 I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my

boiler (failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had
settled for almost 10 hrs.
That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but
noticable, bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after
the initial 10 hrs of settling.
 
 I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with.
 
 If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from

incomplete vs complete reactions, it would answer the question I
asked about getting emulsions when I washed low quality BD after
letting it settle overnight, but not getting emulsions when it
settled for a few days to a week.
 It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with
a friend. He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle
out of the BD given time. He has taken to going with about 16%
(vol/vol) of methanol in his batches.
His logic:
  "Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
  "The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling
the BD overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
 "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get
emulsions, therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."
 
More likely:

 Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week
of settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small
amount of glycerine compound the emulsifying effects of the
unreacted glycerides   .   Yes?
 
By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"

  His answer:  "Oops, I forgot."
 
 Thanks Joe    and Rod . for bringing this to my

attention
 A push to make a lot of BD for heat is just around the
corner. It might be best to include more settling time in the
schedule.
  
Tom

 


- Original Message -
*From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:02 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test

Hey Tom;

Take a sample from your fuel after settling 6-8 hrs and set
it asside in a mason jar for the longer period and see what
settles out.  Rod believes that glycerin settles slower in a
poorly completed reaction.  I believe he is right.  And yes
it only takes a little glycerin to emulsify your wash.

Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Mike,
   I let mine settle for a week 

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Thomas Kelly]

Andres,

>For the sake of precise concepts, gliceryn is NOT an emulsifier.

 I have used the glycerine "cocktail" to de-grease a barrel. Is it the 
caustic (KOH) that reacts with the grease?

Also:
 If I do a wash test on BD from a complete reaction    no mono- or di- 
glycerides, but with some glycerine "cocktail" still present, I get an emulsion.
Let the glycerine settle, no emulsion.

 Could you explain?

 Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: Andres Secco 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Joe,
  For the sake of precise concepts, gliceryn is NOT an emulsifier. Emulsifiers 
contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in the molecule. Which is an 
emulsifier is the partially reacted mono or di-glicerides, but in a crystal 
clear liquid there are not emulsions or dispersions.
  Glycerin is dissolved in the BD and separates from the liquid BD phase with 
time.
- Original Message - 
From: Joe Street 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:30 AM
    Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


Tom;

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried dosing the 
batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove the glycerin it doesn't 
take much to get the last bit of the reaction to go and settle out the 
remaining glycerin.  Of course this is well known already.  Kenji and many 
others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol 
test of sorts and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the 
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to estimate the 
percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose accordingly with the 
stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume neutral oil for this calculation.  
Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works like a 
charm.  Will save you settling time in the long run.

Big skies
Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:

  Joe,

   I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my boiler 
(failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had settled for almost 10 
hrs. 
  That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but noticable, 
bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after the initial 10 hrs of 
settling.

   I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with. 

   If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from incomplete vs 
complete reactions, it would answer the question I asked about getting 
emulsions when I washed low quality BD after letting it settle overnight, but 
not getting emulsions when it settled for a few days to a week.
   It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a 
friend. He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out of the BD 
given time. He has taken to going with about 16% (vol/vol) of methanol in his 
batches.
  His logic:
"Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
"The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the BD 
overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
   "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get emulsions, 
therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."

  More likely:
   Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week of 
settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small amount of 
glycerine compound the emulsifying effects of the unreacted glycerides   .  
 Yes?

  By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"
His answer:  "Oops, I forgot."

   Thanks Joe    and Rod . for bringing this to my attention
   A push to make a lot of BD for heat is just around the corner. It 
might be best to include more settling time in the schedule. 

 Tom
  

- Original Message - 
From: Joe Street 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test


Hey Tom;

Take a sample from your fuel after settling 6-8 hrs and set it asside 
in a mason jar for the longer period and see what settles out.  Rod believes 
that glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction.  I believe he is 
right.  And yes it only takes a little glycerin to emulsify your wash.

Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:

Mike,
I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes  much easier. I doubt 
that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I 
don't think the unreacted oil will settle out.

But:
I have been wondering a

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Andres Secco]

Joe,
For the sake of precise concepts, gliceryn is NOT an emulsifier. Emulsifiers 
contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in the molecule. Which is an 
emulsifier is the partially reacted mono or di-glicerides, but in a crystal 
clear liquid there are not emulsions or dispersions.
Glycerin is dissolved in the BD and separates from the liquid BD phase with 
time.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Tom;

  It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried dosing the 
batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove the glycerin it doesn't 
take much to get the last bit of the reaction to go and settle out the 
remaining glycerin.  Of course this is well known already.  Kenji and many 
others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol 
test of sorts and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the 
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to estimate the 
percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose accordingly with the 
stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume neutral oil for this calculation.  
Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works like a 
charm.  Will save you settling time in the long run.

  Big skies
  Joe

  Thomas Kelly wrote:

Joe,

 I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my boiler 
(failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had settled for almost 10 
hrs. 
That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but noticable, bit 
of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after the initial 10 hrs of 
settling.

 I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with. 

 If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from incomplete vs 
complete reactions, it would answer the question I asked about getting 
emulsions when I washed low quality BD after letting it settle overnight, but 
not getting emulsions when it settled for a few days to a week.
 It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a friend. 
He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out of the BD given 
time. He has taken to going with about 16% (vol/vol) of methanol in his batches.
His logic:
  "Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
  "The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the BD 
overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
 "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get emulsions, 
therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."
  
More likely:
 Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week of 
settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small amount of 
glycerine compound the emulsifying effects of the unreacted glycerides   .  
 Yes?

By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"
  His answer:  "Oops, I forgot."

 Thanks Joe    and Rod . for bringing this to my attention
 A push to make a lot of BD for heat is just around the corner. It 
might be best to include more settling time in the schedule. 

   Tom


  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test


  Hey Tom;

  Take a sample from your fuel after settling 6-8 hrs and set it asside in 
a mason jar for the longer period and see what settles out.  Rod believes that 
glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction.  I believe he is right. 
 And yes it only takes a little glycerin to emulsify your wash.

  Joe

  Thomas Kelly wrote:

Mike,
I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes  much easier. I doubt 
that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I 
don't think the unreacted oil will settle out.

But:
I have been wondering about something.
When I started making BD it would never pass the methanol quality test.
I inevitably got emulsions in the wash. Now, when I make BD for my 
"oil"-fired boiler, I use only about 16-17% (vol/vol) of methanol. The BD 
does not pass the quality test, but I don't have the same emulsion problems. 
Is it because I let it settle longer  (24+ hours vs 6 - 8 hrs)?
Does the presence of a small amount of glycerine/soaps make that much of 
a difference when trying to wash BD from an incomplete reaction?

  Tom


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Qualit

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Joe Street]

See below

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Joe,
 
You wrote:
"Have you ever tried dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  
After you remove the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit 
of the reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin."
   
I've been concerned about the excess methanol and the catalytic 
caustic that will leave with the glycerin I remove.


It is in the glycerin anyways, but the glycerin is stopping the reaction 
so removing it shifts the equilibrium point in favour of completion.


 
   You seem to be suggesting re-processing the BD using info from the QT.


Yep.  There will be 1-2% v/v methanol in the esters anyways and the 
remaining excess is disolved in the glycerin.


Instead of adding 10% (vol/vol) methanol, use an amount that 
correlates to the volume of unreacted oil (from QT).
Ex  QT suggests 8% unreacted oil in a 100L batch = 8 L of 
unreacted oil in the batch. Add 1.6L of methanol (20% vol/vol of the 
unreacted oil) and re-process. (Much better than the 10L normally 
required for re-processing).

 Have I got it right?


Yes

 
Do you still have to add 3.5g of lye (or KOH equivalent)/L ?
If so, is it 3.5g lye per liter of unreacted oil (calculated from 
QT) or per L of batch?


Yes 28 g or 40 etc.

 
Don't you have to heat up the whole batch again? (Time and energy)


This is all done right after draining the glycerin.  I leave the heater 
on during this period.  Do the rough QT right away before wash test.

BTW I still do the 'real' QT after all washing and drying are done.

 
If so, I suggest my way. Towards the end of the reaction, 
interrupt the process and test the BD*. If it fails the QT add more 
methanol** and let the reaction continue for a while.


Well basically yes that's what I'm doing but have drained the glycerin 
and doing the test with methanol shows you exactly what percentage 
unreacted stuff you've got so add methanol and 'X'OH for that amount of 
oil. You can add the remains to the reaction or next batch of course.


 
 *  When I drain the sample to be tested, I allow some to flow before 
taking the sample. In case there was oil in my drain plug I won't get 
a false negative on the QT.
 ** I have simply added a liter or two based loosely on the QT. I will 
now quantify based on the QT and be more accurate (Thanks).
 
>Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal.
 
Two Stage Base/Base Method?

I know of someone who uses it; no titration  ---> consistently good BD.


I wouldn't skip the titration but rather do the base step in two stages 
and remove glycerin in between.


It seems to be a bit more time-consuming and uses more energy and 
caustic than my simple (some would say "primitive") single stage base 
method.


Yes a little more time since two settling periods but it's hard to get 
it just perfect with one stage anyways so then some repro is called for 
andtime.



Big Lunch,
  Tom



LOL U funny!
Cheers
Joe

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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Andres Secco]

>From the moment that I decided to left the reacted mixture to settle two days 
>I never had a batch below standards.
Is a 5,000 lt reactor and the settling tank is separated.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Joe,

  You wrote:
  "Have you ever tried dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After 
you remove the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the 
reaction to go and settle out the remaining glycerin."
 
  I've been concerned about the excess methanol and the catalytic caustic 
that will leave with the glycerin I remove. 

 You seem to be suggesting re-processing the BD using info from the QT.
  Instead of adding 10% (vol/vol) methanol, use an amount that correlates to 
the volume of unreacted oil (from QT).
  Ex  QT suggests 8% unreacted oil in a 100L batch = 8 L of unreacted oil 
in the batch. Add 1.6L of methanol (20% vol/vol of the unreacted oil) and 
re-process. (Much better than the 10L normally required for re-processing).
   Have I got it right?

  Do you still have to add 3.5g of lye (or KOH equivalent)/L ?
  If so, is it 3.5g lye per liter of unreacted oil (calculated from QT) or 
per L of batch? 

  Don't you have to heat up the whole batch again? (Time and energy)

  If so, I suggest my way. Towards the end of the reaction, interrupt the 
process and test the BD*. If it fails the QT add more methanol** and let the 
reaction continue for a while. 

   *  When I drain the sample to be tested, I allow some to flow before taking 
the sample. In case there was oil in my drain plug I won't get a false negative 
on the QT.
   ** I have simply added a liter or two based loosely on the QT. I will now 
quantify based on the QT and be more accurate (Thanks).

  >Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal.

  Two Stage Base/Base Method?
  I know of someone who uses it; no titration  ---> consistently good BD. 
  It seems to be a bit more time-consuming and uses more energy and caustic 
than my simple (some would say "primitive") single stage base method.

  Big Lunch,
Tom
- Original Message - 
From: Joe Street 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


Tom;

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried dosing the 
batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove the glycerin it doesn't 
take much to get the last bit of the reaction to go and settle out the 
remaining glycerin.  Of course this is well known already.  Kenji and many 
others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol 
test of sorts and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the 
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to estimate the 
percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose accordingly with the 
stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume neutral oil for this calculation.  
Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works like a 
charm.  Will save you settling time in the long run.

Big skies
Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:

  Joe,

   I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my boiler 
(failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had settled for almost 10 
hrs. 
  That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but noticable, 
bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after the initial 10 hrs of 
settling.

   I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with. 

   If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from incomplete vs 
complete reactions, it would answer the question I asked about getting 
emulsions when I washed low quality BD after letting it settle overnight, but 
not getting emulsions when it settled for a few days to a week.
   It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a 
friend. He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out of the BD 
given time. He has taken to going with about 16% (vol/vol) of methanol in his 
batches.
  His logic:
"Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
"The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the BD 
overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
   "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get emulsions, 
therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."

  More likely:
   Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week of 
settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small amount of 
glycerine compound the emulsifying effects of the unreacted glycerides   .  
 Yes?

  By the way, I

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Thomas Kelly]

Joe,

You wrote:
"Have you ever tried dosing the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you 
remove the glycerin it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the reaction to 
go and settle out the remaining glycerin."
   
I've been concerned about the excess methanol and the catalytic caustic 
that will leave with the glycerin I remove. 

   You seem to be suggesting re-processing the BD using info from the QT.
Instead of adding 10% (vol/vol) methanol, use an amount that correlates to the 
volume of unreacted oil (from QT).
Ex  QT suggests 8% unreacted oil in a 100L batch = 8 L of unreacted oil in 
the batch. Add 1.6L of methanol (20% vol/vol of the unreacted oil) and 
re-process. (Much better than the 10L normally required for re-processing).
 Have I got it right?

Do you still have to add 3.5g of lye (or KOH equivalent)/L ?
If so, is it 3.5g lye per liter of unreacted oil (calculated from QT) or 
per L of batch? 

Don't you have to heat up the whole batch again? (Time and energy)

If so, I suggest my way. Towards the end of the reaction, interrupt the 
process and test the BD*. If it fails the QT add more methanol** and let the 
reaction continue for a while. 

 *  When I drain the sample to be tested, I allow some to flow before taking 
the sample. In case there was oil in my drain plug I won't get a false negative 
on the QT.
 ** I have simply added a liter or two based loosely on the QT. I will now 
quantify based on the QT and be more accurate (Thanks).

>Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal.

Two Stage Base/Base Method?
I know of someone who uses it; no titration  ---> consistently good BD. 
It seems to be a bit more time-consuming and uses more energy and caustic than 
my simple (some would say "primitive") single stage base method.

Big Lunch,
  Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time


  Tom;

  It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried dosing the 
batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove the glycerin it doesn't 
take much to get the last bit of the reaction to go and settle out the 
remaining glycerin.  Of course this is well known already.  Kenji and many 
others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol 
test of sorts and the unreacted oil will settle out.  Then you can use the 
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to estimate the 
percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose accordingly with the 
stoichiometric amount of methoxide.  Assume neutral oil for this calculation.  
Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works like a 
charm.  Will save you settling time in the long run.

  Big skies
  Joe

  Thomas Kelly wrote:

Joe,

 I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my boiler 
(failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had settled for almost 10 
hrs. 
That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but noticable, bit 
of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after the initial 10 hrs of 
settling.

 I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with. 

 If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from incomplete vs 
complete reactions, it would answer the question I asked about getting 
emulsions when I washed low quality BD after letting it settle overnight, but 
not getting emulsions when it settled for a few days to a week.
 It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a friend. 
He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out of the BD given 
time. He has taken to going with about 16% (vol/vol) of methanol in his batches.
His logic:
  "Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
  "The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the BD 
overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
 "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get emulsions, 
therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."
  
More likely:
 Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week of 
settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small amount of 
glycerine compound the emulsifying effects of the unreacted glycerides   .  
 Yes?

By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"
  His answer:  "Oops, I forgot."

 Thanks Joe    and Rod . for bringing this to my attention
 A push to make a lot of BD for heat is just around the corner. It 
might be best to include more settling time in the schedule. 

   Tom


  - Original Message -

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Joe Street]

Tom;

It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier.  Have you ever tried dosing 
the batch again with a little methoxide?  After you remove the glycerin 
it doesn't take much to get the last bit of the reaction to go and 
settle out the remaining glycerin.  Of course this is well known 
already.  Kenji and many others do straight base catalysis as a two 
stage deal. You can do a methanol test of sorts and the unreacted oil 
will settle out.  Then you can use the measured amount of unreacted oil 
in the methanol test vial to estimate the percentage unreacted oil in 
your batch and dose accordingly with the stoichiometric amount of 
methoxide.  Assume neutral oil for this calculation.  Rod and I do this 
regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works like a charm.  Will 
save you settling time in the long run.


Big skies
Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Joe,
 
 I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my boiler 
(failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had settled for 
almost 10 hrs.
That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but noticable, 
bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after the initial 10 
hrs of settling.
 
 I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with.
 
 If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from incomplete 
vs complete reactions, it would answer the question I asked about 
getting emulsions when I washed low quality BD after letting it settle 
overnight, but not getting emulsions when it settled for a few days to 
a week.
 It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a 
friend. He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out of 
the BD given time. He has taken to going with about 16% (vol/vol) of 
methanol in his batches.

His logic:
  "Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
  "The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the BD 
overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
 "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get 
emulsions, therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."
 
More likely:
 Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week of 
settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small amount of 
glycerine compound the emulsifying effects of the unreacted 
glycerides   .   Yes?
 
By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"

  His answer:  "Oops, I forgot."
 
 Thanks Joe    and Rod . for bringing this to my attention
 A push to make a lot of BD for heat is just around the corner. It 
might be best to include more settling time in the schedule.
   
Tom

 


- Original Message -
*From:* Joe Street 
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org

*Sent:* Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:02 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test

Hey Tom;

Take a sample from your fuel after settling 6-8 hrs and set it
asside in a mason jar for the longer period and see what settles
out.  Rod believes that glycerin settles slower in a poorly
completed reaction.  I believe he is right.  And yes it only takes
a little glycerin to emulsify your wash.

Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Mike,
   I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes  much easier. I doubt 
that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I 
don't think the unreacted oil will settle out.


But:
   I have been wondering about something.
   When I started making BD it would never pass the methanol quality test.
I inevitably got emulsions in the wash. Now, when I make BD for my 
"oil"-fired boiler, I use only about 16-17% (vol/vol) of methanol. The BD 
does not pass the quality test, but I don't have the same emulsion problems. 
Is it because I let it settle longer  (24+ hours vs 6 - 8 hrs)?
   Does the presence of a small amount of glycerine/soaps make that much of 
a difference when trying to wash BD from an incomplete reaction?


 Tom


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test


 


FWIW - I let the batch settle for a week or so (the lazy man's way) and
that also seems to help w/ this.


Thomas Kelly wrote:

   


Shawn,

   I suspect that the "dense substance at the bottom of the flask" was
unreacted glycerides, indicating an incomplete reaction.

   I now drain a sample of the mix towards the end of processing.
   - Shut off the pump
   - Drain a sample and turn the pump back on
   - Allow the glycerin to settle for a few minutes
   - Perform Jan W's quality test on the top (crude BD) layer

   There is still glycerin in the mix, but if I have succeeded in 
getting

a complete reaction, I do not get an ins

[Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time

[Thomas Kelly]

Joe,

 I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my boiler (failed 
QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had settled for almost 10 hrs. 
That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but noticable, bit of 
glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after the initial 10 hrs of settling.

 I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with. 

 If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from incomplete vs 
complete reactions, it would answer the question I asked about getting 
emulsions when I washed low quality BD after letting it settle overnight, but 
not getting emulsions when it settled for a few days to a week.
 It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a friend. He 
seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out of the BD given time. 
He has taken to going with about 16% (vol/vol) of methanol in his batches.
His logic:
  "Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
  "The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the BD 
overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
 "When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get emulsions, 
therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."
  
More likely:
 Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week of settling 
more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small amount of glycerine 
compound the emulsifying effects of the unreacted glycerides   .   Yes?

By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"
  His answer:  "Oops, I forgot."

 Thanks Joe    and Rod . for bringing this to my attention
 A push to make a lot of BD for heat is just around the corner. It might be 
best to include more settling time in the schedule. 
   
Tom


  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test


  Hey Tom;

  Take a sample from your fuel after settling 6-8 hrs and set it asside in a 
mason jar for the longer period and see what settles out.  Rod believes that 
glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction.  I believe he is right. 
 And yes it only takes a little glycerin to emulsify your wash.

  Joe

  Thomas Kelly wrote:

Mike,
I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes  much easier. I doubt 
that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I 
don't think the unreacted oil will settle out.

But:
I have been wondering about something.
When I started making BD it would never pass the methanol quality test.
I inevitably got emulsions in the wash. Now, when I make BD for my 
"oil"-fired boiler, I use only about 16-17% (vol/vol) of methanol. The BD 
does not pass the quality test, but I don't have the same emulsion problems. 
Is it because I let it settle longer  (24+ hours vs 6 - 8 hrs)?
Does the presence of a small amount of glycerine/soaps make that much of 
a difference when trying to wash BD from an incomplete reaction?

  Tom


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test


  FWIW - I let the batch settle for a week or so (the lazy man's way) and
that also seems to help w/ this.


Thomas Kelly wrote:

Shawn,

I suspect that the "dense substance at the bottom of the flask" was
unreacted glycerides, indicating an incomplete reaction.

I now drain a sample of the mix towards the end of processing.
- Shut off the pump
- Drain a sample and turn the pump back on
- Allow the glycerin to settle for a few minutes
- Perform Jan W's quality test on the top (crude BD) layer

There is still glycerin in the mix, but if I have succeeded in 
getting
a complete reaction, I do not get an insoluble residue on the bottom.

I repeat the test after washing the BD. It is a quick, easy test, and
the
result, whether it passed or failed can be added to the methoxide for your
next batch  .  no wasted methanol, costs nothing to perform the test.
 Best to You,
   Tom


- Original Message - 
From: "shawn patrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Biofuel Mailing List" 
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:03 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test




  Good Day All,

My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist. 
Is
this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has
been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing
glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell
that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I
assumed
that was the glycerin since just extr

Re: [Biofuel] glycerine layer

[Tonomár András]

  Hello,
   
  I have 2 advise for you
   
  1. build a reactor with cone-shaped bottom, and 
  insulate it well,
  2. Start draining the by product as soon as you 
  practically can ( 99% of glicerin separates within 2 hors)
   
  You may still have problems with draining ( 
  especially to start it flowing) a strong hair dryer 
  can be very usefull to heat the outlet valve and 
  hose barb.
  I also have similar problems to yours aspecially 
  when the temp drops below 15 deg C.
  and I have to clean the bottom of the reactor 
  wessel after every batch.
  When you make good and complete reaction, a bit 
  of by product will not screw up the wash.
   
  Thanking of KOH Instead of NaOH can be a 
  permanent solution, for the by product stays liquid.
  but it is more expensive.
  Read JTF website for details on use of KOH
   
  Kind regards,
  Andrew
   
   
   
  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 4:46 
  PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] glycerine layer
  I am about to advance to a 30 gallon reactor. All 
  during my one and 15 liter educational phases, my glycerin layer has always 
  resulted in a semi solid jelly but the fuel always washes beautifully in four 
  washes to a crystal clear dark gold amber after drying. My current yield to 
  800 ml of fuel for every liter of WVO. If I am doing it right, the WVO 
  titrates to 7.5. My concern is the semi solid glycerin layer. When I build my 
  reactor, will I have to have a heater near this layer to be able to drain it, 
  or should the layer be more liquid? 
  
  

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[Biofuel] glycerine layer

[RicAlls]

I am about to advance to a 30 gallon reactor. All during my one and 15 liter educational phases, my glycerin layer has always resulted in a semi solid jelly but the fuel always washes beautifully in four washes to a crystal clear dark gold amber after drying. My current yield to 800 ml of fuel for every liter of WVO. If I am doing it right, the WVO titrates to 7.5. My concern is the semi solid glycerin layer. When I build my reactor, will I have to have a heater near this layer to be able to drain it, or should the layer be more liquid?
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Re: [Biofuel] glycerine uses and other fancy stuff.

[Thomas Kelly]

Greg,
   On 4/1/06 you asked:
"Is anybody willing to talk about the ammonia process to make the mulch 
additive?" 
 
 Here's my take on 
it.
 The glycerin mix that we 
drain from the BD contains Glycerin, Fatty Acids (as soaps?) Methanol, and 
Lye.
  The mix can be 
cracked (see JtF) using Phosphoric Acid. This settles > distinct layers: 
Fatty Acids, Crude Glycerin (with the methanol), and a salt composed of 
either
Potassium Phosphate or Sodium Phosphate (depending 
on whether you used KOH or NaOH as your catalyst). The phosphate coming from the 
phosphoric acid.
 As I understand it, 
good separation requires acid conditions hence excess H ions (+) and 
phosphate ions (-). By neutralizing w. ammonia {ammonia in water forms ammonium 
ions (+)  and hydroxide ions (-)}  the Hydrogen ions combine w. 
the hydroxide ions to form water (neutralization) and the ammonium ions combine 
w. the phosphate ions to form ammonium phosphate. 
 In the next few days I 
will be experimenting w. the process. I plan to draw off the mineral salts, 
dissolve them in water. If acid, will neutralize w. dilute ammonia and spray on 
a compost pile as I build it.
   
Will let you know how it goes.
   
Tom

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  greg 
  Kelly 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 10:48 
  AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] glycerine uses and 
  other fancy stuff.
  
  You mean I can't just do like Google? No wonder I'm not having any luck! 
  No substitute for tunnel vision, eh?
  It just seems like a waste to simply flush anything that may have a use. 
  Is anybody willing to talk about the ammonia process to make the mulch 
  additive? 
  Greg Kelly
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] glycerine uses and other fancy stuff.

[Keith Addison]

>You mean I can't just do like Google? No wonder I'm not having any 
>luck! No substitute for tunnel vision, eh?

:-) Google's quite a good substitute for tunnel vision. LOL!

Google and the list archives both use a simple search, though Google 
does some other things with it too, but the big difference is that 
Google ranks the results for you according to various criteria such 
as how popular a site is, how many other sites link to it and so on. 
So what I said about using search terms that are too general doesn't 
apply, Google sorts that out for you, to an extent anyway. Ordinary 
search engines don't do that, there's no ranking of hits, so a vague 
search gets vague results. Still, if you develop better search 
techniques you'll get better results at Google too.

Best

Keith


>It just seems like a waste to simply flush anything that may have a 
>use. Is anybody willing to talk about the ammonia process to make 
>the mulch additive?
>Greg Kelly


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff

[Mike McGinness]

Joe,
I don't quite understand it either, but apparently the higher frequency
helps the colloidal emulsion break up and separate better (it may be affecting
the Zeta potential of surface charges on colloidal particles that tend
to keep emulsions stable) while the lower frequency keeps it mechanically
mixed. It sounds like its partly a physics topic, not just physical chemistry.
Mike McGinness
Joe Street wrote:
I guess you didn't read the abstract which says that
settling time IS also reduced with ultrasonics (although I don't understand
the mechanism or how that works).
Joe
Tonomár András wrote:

Joe,

In my well isolated reactor the tempreture stays above 55 deg for 3 hours.
so the amount of enregy needed goes in with the initial heating and this is
independent from
how long I process my fuel. In fact I use mechanical stirrer wich means
there is no heat loss
in the tubes outside tubes, and the mechanical energy remains in the reactor
also as heat.

Other thing is that the reaction time is 10 or 60 or 120 minutes doesn't
matter.
the reason is that you have to settle for 12 - 24 hours anyway.
in my point of view speeding up the settling would be something much more
logical direction to go.
Another reason for this is that the 2 stage mathods require a re-heating,
which could be avoided
if separation was compete in 1 hour vs. 24 hours
Keep going
Andrew




- Original Message -
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff





Hey Greg ;

If I run my reactor (which has a 1500 watt element but is a 220 volt
unit running on 110v) I am consuming 350 watts and current wisdom says
to allow 1 hr or more for the reaction so that's 350 Wh of energy used.
If I use a 300 watt US generator and the reaction completes in 10
minutes that's only 50 Wh of energy used. for the u-sonics and another
58 Wh for heating during that 10 minutes, but in fact the insulation
will keep the mixture hot for that amount of time so I can get away with
just 50Wh of energy.  Plus if the abstract is right I use less catalyst
and less excess methanol and you have to consider the energy that went
into producing those as well.  All told it is a significant savings!

Joe

greg Kelly wrote:

snip




The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound
seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how
much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant
will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to
keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here
long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on
the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing?
respectfully,
Greg Kelly






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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff

[Joe Street]

I guess you didn't read the abstract which says that settling time IS
also reduced with ultrasonics (although I don't understand the
mechanism or how that works).

Joe

Tonomár András wrote:

  Joe,

In my well isolated reactor the tempreture stays above 55 deg for 3 hours.
so the amount of enregy needed goes in with the initial heating and this is
independent from
how long I process my fuel. In fact I use mechanical stirrer wich means
there is no heat loss
in the tubes outside tubes, and the mechanical energy remains in the reactor
also as heat.

Other thing is that the reaction time is 10 or 60 or 120 minutes doesn't
matter.
the reason is that you have to settle for 12 - 24 hours anyway.
in my point of view speeding up the settling would be something much more
logical direction to go.
Another reason for this is that the 2 stage mathods require a re-heating,
which could be avoided
if separation was compete in 1 hour vs. 24 hours
Keep going
Andrew




- Original Message -
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff


  
  
Hey Greg ;

If I run my reactor (which has a 1500 watt element but is a 220 volt
unit running on 110v) I am consuming 350 watts and current wisdom says
to allow 1 hr or more for the reaction so that's 350 Wh of energy used.
If I use a 300 watt US generator and the reaction completes in 10
minutes that's only 50 Wh of energy used. for the u-sonics and another
58 Wh for heating during that 10 minutes, but in fact the insulation
will keep the mixture hot for that amount of time so I can get away with
just 50Wh of energy.  Plus if the abstract is right I use less catalyst
and less excess methanol and you have to consider the energy that went
into producing those as well.  All told it is a significant savings!

Joe

greg Kelly wrote:

snip



  The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound
seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how
much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant
will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to
keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here
long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on
the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing?
respectfully,
Greg Kelly



  


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  messages):
  
  
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[Biofuel] glycerine uses and other fancy stuff.

[greg Kelly]

You mean I can't just do like Google? No wonder I'm not having any luck! No substitute for tunnel vision, eh?  It just seems like a waste to simply flush anything that may have a use. Is anybody willing to talk about the ammonia process to make the mulch additive?   Greg Kelly___
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff

[Tonomár András]

Joe,

In my well isolated reactor the tempreture stays above 55 deg for 3 hours.
so the amount of enregy needed goes in with the initial heating and this is
independent from
how long I process my fuel. In fact I use mechanical stirrer wich means
there is no heat loss
in the tubes outside tubes, and the mechanical energy remains in the reactor
also as heat.

Other thing is that the reaction time is 10 or 60 or 120 minutes doesn't
matter.
the reason is that you have to settle for 12 - 24 hours anyway.
in my point of view speeding up the settling would be something much more
logical direction to go.
Another reason for this is that the 2 stage mathods require a re-heating,
which could be avoided
if separation was compete in 1 hour vs. 24 hours
Keep going
Andrew




- Original Message -
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff


> Hey Greg ;
>
> If I run my reactor (which has a 1500 watt element but is a 220 volt
> unit running on 110v) I am consuming 350 watts and current wisdom says
> to allow 1 hr or more for the reaction so that's 350 Wh of energy used.
> If I use a 300 watt US generator and the reaction completes in 10
> minutes that's only 50 Wh of energy used. for the u-sonics and another
> 58 Wh for heating during that 10 minutes, but in fact the insulation
> will keep the mixture hot for that amount of time so I can get away with
> just 50Wh of energy.  Plus if the abstract is right I use less catalyst
> and less excess methanol and you have to consider the energy that went
> into producing those as well.  All told it is a significant savings!
>
> Joe
>
> greg Kelly wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >
> > The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound
> > seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how
> > much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant
> > will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to
> > keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here
> > long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on
> > the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing?
> > respectfully,
> > Greg Kelly
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff

[Joe Street]

Hey Greg ;

If I run my reactor (which has a 1500 watt element but is a 220 volt 
unit running on 110v) I am consuming 350 watts and current wisdom says 
to allow 1 hr or more for the reaction so that's 350 Wh of energy used.  
If I use a 300 watt US generator and the reaction completes in 10 
minutes that's only 50 Wh of energy used. for the u-sonics and another 
58 Wh for heating during that 10 minutes, but in fact the insulation 
will keep the mixture hot for that amount of time so I can get away with 
just 50Wh of energy.  Plus if the abstract is right I use less catalyst 
and less excess methanol and you have to consider the energy that went 
into producing those as well.  All told it is a significant savings!

Joe

greg Kelly wrote:

snip

>  
> The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound 
> seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how 
> much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant 
> will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to 
> keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here 
> long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on 
> the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing?
> respectfully,
> Greg Kelly
>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff

[Keith Addison]

Hello Greg

>I am very interested in finding a use for the glycerine made by the reaction.

Have you looked at this?

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
Glycerine

>I don't need that much soap and the local companies I have called 
>have not been interested. The idea of using ammonia to make 
>potassium and ammonium phosphate.

Yes, nice. Those are just ordinary chemical "fertilisers", I wouldn't 
put them in the soil, but I'd put them in the compost, as Tom said, 
if they're mostly derived onsite as a by-product of a sustainable 
process, which this is, mostly.

>I am having a time getting a handle on the searches in the archives,

It's just a simple search, but you can use Boolean searches to an 
extent, eg, put a phrase in double quotes. The limitation is that it 
only gives you the first hundred hits, so if your search term is too 
general you'll only get to see the tip of the iceberg. But that will 
give you further search terms you can use to narrow it down. 
Searching is a bit of an art, but it's well worth learning, 
generally, not just for the list archives.

>but I'll keeo trying. The long and short of it is that many people 
>in my area simply flush the glycerine and I don't want to consider 
>that.

Actually it's not as bad as it sounds. "Some home-brewers have 
pointed out that wastewater treatment systems should be able to 
handle the glycerin by-product without problems. It mixes with water, 
it's biodegradable, and if you reclaim the excess methanol first, 
it's non-toxic. As for the lye and the soap, lye is a drain-cleaner 
after all, and wastewater plants are no strangers to soap. Even the 
methanol might be an advantage, some of the digester bacteria like 
it. But it's best not to pour by-product down the drain or the toilet 
without checking with your local authority first."

Ken Provost said this about it: "The "junk" as you call it, is 
composed primarily of three things -- leftover(ie, excess) methanol 
or ethanol, glycerol, soap, water, and alkali (NaOH or KOH). 
Methanol, ethanol, glycerol, and soap are all entirely biodegradable 
over a very short timespan. The alkali can be sewered in urban areas 
to the same extent as any drain cleaner. If that is bothersome to 
you, it can easily be neutralized to NaCl or KCl using hydro- chloric 
acid. I personally have no qualms with any of that, and I consider 
myself fairly "anal" about what I put down the drain."

I just think it's a waste, but if you have no other options that's 
the last one.

>So, any processes that people have used in the past as suggestions 
>would be interesting to me.
>
>The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound 
>seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how 
>much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant 
>will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to 
>keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here 
>long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on 
>the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing?
>respectfully,
>Greg Kelly

Well, I agree with you. Someone emailed me maybe six months or a year 
ago suggesting ultrasonics would speed up the process, but I didn't 
take much notice, on the basis of K.I.S.S. Why get into stuff you 
can't source locally and probably can't maintain or repair yourself, 
when it works pretty well without it anyway? I had rather the same 
attitude to it as to centrifuges, only worse, since a local shop 
probably can make a centrifuge, depending on the shop, but I don't 
think centrifuges work very well anyway, apart from being excessive. 
Anyway though we have to do Appropriate Technology not everyone's in 
the same position, so I don't think using ultrasonics is out place, 
if it works. Which Joe looks like finding out, strength to his elbow.

Best

Keith


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[Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff

[greg Kelly]

I am very interested in finding a use for the glycerine made by the reaction. I don't need that much soap and the local companies I have called have not been interested. The idea of using ammonia to make potassium and ammonium phosphate. I am having a time getting a handle on the searches in the archives, but I'll keeo trying. The long and short of it is that many people in my area simply flush the glycerine and I don't want to consider that. So, any processes that people have used in the past as suggestions would be interesting to me.      The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on the
 concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing?  respectfully,  Greg Kelly___
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[Biofuel] glycerine uses..was Disposal of glycerine...

[Alt.EnergyNetwork]

Hello Michael,
I don't know what quantities you are going to be dealing with
but glycerine has thousands of uses from
a food and candy ingredient, soaps, hand and skin lotions, explosives etc.
If you can't use all your production, you may want to sell it locally as
it really shouldn't be thrown away.

The links below may give you some ideas.

regards
tallex

< http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html >

< http://www.cleaning101.com/oleo/whygly2.html >

< http://www.acme-hardesty.com/productdetails.cfm?PID=28 >

< http://www.utahbiodiesel.org/biodiesel_links.html >

< http://www.chem.yorku.ca/hall_of_fame/essays96/glycerol.htm >

>  ---Original Message---
>  From: Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Disposal of glycerine...
>  Sent: 27 Nov '05 13:50
>  
>  Michael,
>  
>  Are you speaking of what settles out of a transesterification? Or are
>  you speaking of the remaining glycerol after performing a free fatty
>  acid recovery on the same soup?
>  
>  Todd Swearingen
>  
>  
>  >Hi folks I haven't started my production yet but I recently realized
>  >that I wasn't sure what I was going to do about disposing of the left
>  >over glycerine.
>  >
>  >I live on a small plot on the local reservoir and I can't just dump it
>  >or compost it .Any suggestions? what are you guy's doing with it? yes
>  >i could just put it in the trash but i have to pay for trash removal.
>  >
>  >Michael Luich
>  >  
>  >
>  
>  

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Re: [Biofuel] glycerine ?

[Appal Energy]

It will change the equation equilibrium slightly. Don't know if anyone 
has done any analysis as to how much, theoretically or in reality. 
Depends on how much is re-included in your next reaction.


You should have your processor set up to drain completely, or within a 
few fluid ounces or so.


Todd Swearingen

alex burton wrote:


Hello All

I have a question about glycerine.

what is the effect if after i have made biodiesel and let it settel in 
the prossesor  but there is still a small amout of glycerine left in 
the prossesor after i have drained it and then make another batch will 
the glycerine that is left in the prossesor have a negative result on 
the next batch?


Thanks for the advice

Alex









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Re: [Biofuel] glycerine ?

[Jan Warnqvist]

Yes ,it most certainly will. Glycerine 
residues will have an impact on the equivalence balance for next reaction, that 
most probably will produce less biodiesel.
Contaminations in general are not good for 
biodiesel production either.
With best regards
Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
+ 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  alex 
  burton 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 10:07 
AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] glycerine ?
  
  
  Hello All
  I have a question about glycerine.
  what is the effect if after i have made biodiesel and let it settel in the 
  prossesor  but there is still a small amout of glycerine left in the 
  prossesor after i have drained it and then make another batch will the 
  glycerine that is left in the prossesor have a negative result on the next 
  batch?Thanks for the advice
  Alex
  
  
  

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[Biofuel] glycerine ?

[alex burton]

Hello All
I have a question about glycerine.
what is the effect if after i have made biodiesel and let it settel in the prossesor  but there is still a small amout of glycerine left in the prossesor after i have drained it and then make another batch will the glycerine that is left in the prossesor have a negative result on the next batch?Thanks for the advice
Alex



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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as fuel

[Balaji]

Hello Marcelino,
 
- Original Message - 

  From: 
  Quimica Nova SA 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 5:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as 
  fuel
  
  Hello Balaji, Hello Bill,
   
  in spite of having a large supply of natural gas 
  in Argentina, and cheap, there are still many places where there are no 
  distribution lines. In our case at the North West of the country there is a 
  large availability of biomass, which we would like to consider for 
  gasification: heat for our own chemical processes, for generation of our own 
  consumption of electricity and probably for sales of electricity to the grid, 
  and small units for poor, far located towns.
   
  Excelllent idea. See my earlier post. 
  
   
  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg40222.html
   
  All the applications you mention have 
  been estabished in India with indigenous technology from Indian Institute of 
  Science, Bangalore, India. We have installed a 1100 kg/hr gasifier using 
  a dual fuel burner burning Heavy Furnace Oil or Producer Gas or a 
  combination of both to provide process heat for a Hydrofluoric Acid Plant. We 
  have recently comissioned a 650 kWe captive power plant in a dairy unit near 
  Chennai, Tamil Nadu, using 100% gas engines from Cummins India, and we have 
  two grid connected systems - a 200 kWe vilage electrification project funded 
  by UNDP and a 1250 kWe Power Plant wheeling the power over the State 
  Utility grid to its sister unit 300 km away. Most of the above units 
  use Prosopsis Juliflora, for which many thanks, since it is an import from 
  South America. LOL.
  
   
  I am part of a 
  group engaged in the manufacture of gasifiers from 20  kg/hr to 2000 
  kg/hr capacity for both thermal energy and power generation One of our 20 
  kWe dual fuel gasifer plants has been operating in Butachaques Island in Chile 
  servicing the needs of a remote indigenus community and another 20 kWe system 
  has been functioning at the University of Sao Paulo, Brazil. 
  
   
  Bill, can you give the name and adress, phone, 
  e-mail, etc. of the company that supplied the biomass gasifier in 
  Alabama?
  Balaji, can you give names,etc. of other 
  manufacturers of gasifiers?
   
  
  Thank you very much.
  Marcelino Miranda
  President
  QUIMICA NOVA S.A
   
  Regards,
  balaji
  Energreen Power 
  Limited,
  New Address : No. 2, 3rd 
  Street, Nandanam Extension,
  Chennai - 600 
  035
  Telefax : 91(44) 2432 
  1339, 2432 2499
  e-mail : 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as fuel

[Quimica Nova SA]

Hello Balaji, Hello Bill,
 
in spite of having a large supply of natural gas in 
Argentina, and cheap, there are still many places where there are no 
distribution lines. In our case at the North West of the country there is a 
large availability of biomass, which we would like to consider for gasification: 
heat for our own chemical processes, for generation of our own consumption of 
electricity and probably for sales of electricity to the grid, and small units 
for poor, far located towns.
Bill, can you give the name and adress, phone, 
e-mail, etc. of the company that supplied the biomass gasifier in 
Alabama?
Balaji, can you give names,etc. of other 
manufacturers of gasifiers?
Thank you very much.
 
Marcelino Miranda
President
QUIMICA NOVA S.A.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Balaji 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as 
  fuel
  
  Hello Bill.
   
  If the purpose of gasification is 
  only providing thermal energy for the chicken house with the disposal of 
  chicken manure (and glycerine) as added bonus, the biomass could be 
  gasified with a simple updraft gasifier, This will certainly produce 
  more tars but these can be burnt in the gaseous state before they 
  condense using wide port burners.
   
  However, if you wish to generate 
  electricity using the producer gas from the gasifier to fire 
  turbocharged/naturally aspirated generators, a downdraft gasifier would be 
  indicated. There are issues related to bulk density and moisture content which 
  need to be tackled first.
   
  Regards.
   
  balaji
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Bill Clark 
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 

Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 4:06 
AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Glycerine as 
fuel

Hi to all,
 
Yesterday I visited a small wood veneer 
operation using a wood gasification unit to produce steam which heats the 
veneer driers.
They had previously been using LPG as a fuel 
source. The increase in the price of LPG was threatening to put them out of 
business. With the help of a grant from the State of Alabama they installed 
the new biomass gasification unit and paid it off ($500,000.00 USD) in a 
year and a half.
 
There is another industry here struggling with 
LPG prices. Chicken growers. These small rural farmers must heat their 
chicken houses during cool or cold weather. Each house is 60 ft. wide by 200 
ft. long. They turn the houses over 6 times per year. Each time a flock is 
sold, a layer of litter (peanut hulls and chicken waste) must be 
removed from the floor of the house. While the litter poduced is being used 
on some farmland  (a problem in itself), there is a large glut of 
chicken litter piled around most of these farms. It is smelly, full of avian 
pathogens and is a serious leachate problem.
 
There is work being done to utilize this waste 
as a heat source for these houses. The Alabama Department of Economic and 
Community Affairs Science, Technology and Energy division (ADECA-STE) is 
very interested in biomass as energy and has a grant program aimed at 
agricultural energy efficiency. 
 
Questions:
 
Can raw glycerine co-product from a biodiesel 
operation be effective as a source of syngas in a gasifier?
 
What implications from the soap 
content?
 
Proposal:
 
Since the removal of the litter from each house 
is a very dusty operation, utilize raw glycerine co-product as a dust 
settler on the surface of the litter with the added benefit of increasing 
the energy content of the biomass. Use the waste biomass as fuel in a wood 
gasification unit to produce heat for the chicken houses.
 
As some of you know, I am running a wvo to 
biodiesel project for the City of Eufaula, AL. I produce about 600 gal. of 
biodiesel per week leaving me with approximately 90 gal. of raw glycerine 
co-product. While this is not enough to treat the 400 chicken houses in the 
area, it may be enough to demonstrate this idea on one or two farms. If the 
addition of raw glycerine to chicken litter is workable,
perhaps it could create a reliable use for 
raw glycerine produced in a larger scale biodiesel plant. The raw 
glycerine could be sold for perhaps $.50-1.00 per gallon, a nice price that 
would have an impact on the feasibility of a local biodiesel 
operation.
 
I am just begining to think this through so any 
comments, positive or negative, would be appreciated.
 
Hoping all is well with each of 
you,
 
Bill Clark
 
 



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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as fuel

[Balaji]

Hello Bill.
 
If the purpose of gasification is 
only providing thermal energy for the chicken house with the disposal of chicken 
manure (and glycerine) as added bonus, the biomass could be 
gasified with a simple updraft gasifier, This will certainly produce 
more tars but these can be burnt in the gaseous state before they condense 
using wide port burners.
 
However, if you wish to generate 
electricity using the producer gas from the gasifier to fire 
turbocharged/naturally aspirated generators, a downdraft gasifier would be 
indicated. There are issues related to bulk density and moisture content which 
need to be tackled first.
 
Regards.
 
balaji

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Bill 
  Clark 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 4:06 AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Glycerine as 
fuel
  
  Hi to all,
   
  Yesterday I visited a small wood veneer operation 
  using a wood gasification unit to produce steam which heats the veneer 
  driers.
  They had previously been using LPG as a fuel 
  source. The increase in the price of LPG was threatening to put them out of 
  business. With the help of a grant from the State of Alabama they installed 
  the new biomass gasification unit and paid it off ($500,000.00 USD) in a year 
  and a half.
   
  There is another industry here struggling with 
  LPG prices. Chicken growers. These small rural farmers must heat their chicken 
  houses during cool or cold weather. Each house is 60 ft. wide by 200 ft. long. 
  They turn the houses over 6 times per year. Each time a flock is sold, a layer 
  of litter (peanut hulls and chicken waste) must be removed from the floor 
  of the house. While the litter poduced is being used on some farmland  (a 
  problem in itself), there is a large glut of chicken litter piled around most 
  of these farms. It is smelly, full of avian pathogens and is a serious 
  leachate problem.
   
  There is work being done to utilize this waste as 
  a heat source for these houses. The Alabama Department of Economic and 
  Community Affairs Science, Technology and Energy division (ADECA-STE) is very 
  interested in biomass as energy and has a grant program aimed at agricultural 
  energy efficiency. 
   
  Questions:
   
  Can raw glycerine co-product from a biodiesel 
  operation be effective as a source of syngas in a gasifier?
   
  What implications from the soap 
  content?
   
  Proposal:
   
  Since the removal of the litter from each house 
  is a very dusty operation, utilize raw glycerine co-product as a dust settler 
  on the surface of the litter with the added benefit of increasing the energy 
  content of the biomass. Use the waste biomass as fuel in a wood gasification 
  unit to produce heat for the chicken houses.
   
  As some of you know, I am running a wvo to 
  biodiesel project for the City of Eufaula, AL. I produce about 600 gal. of 
  biodiesel per week leaving me with approximately 90 gal. of raw glycerine 
  co-product. While this is not enough to treat the 400 chicken houses in the 
  area, it may be enough to demonstrate this idea on one or two farms. If the 
  addition of raw glycerine to chicken litter is workable,
  perhaps it could create a reliable use for 
  raw glycerine produced in a larger scale biodiesel plant. The raw 
  glycerine could be sold for perhaps $.50-1.00 per gallon, a nice price that 
  would have an impact on the feasibility of a local biodiesel 
  operation.
   
  I am just begining to think this through so any 
  comments, positive or negative, would be appreciated.
   
  Hoping all is well with each of you,
   
  Bill Clark
   
   
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as fuel

[Bill Clark]

Thanks Todd, That was extremely helpful.

Bill
- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as fuel


> Bill,
>
> One would imagine that a gasifier would reduce all components of the
> glyc cocktail to syn gas and char.
>
> Gasification is a novel thought to reducing that waste/co-product to
> nill though. No addition of anything. No chemical refining. No new
> energy inputs. No disposal problem with the remaining crude glycerol.
>
> A standard ratio/mix of biomass to cocktail might be just the ticket.
>
> Here is a gasifier that we've been eying for a couple of years now.
>
> http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/woodboilers.htm
>
> It's the only one we've seen that might fit the ticket.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>
> Bill Clark wrote:
>
> > Hi to all,
> >
> > Yesterday I visited a small wood veneer operation using a wood
> > gasification unit to produce steam which heats the veneer driers.
> > They had previously been using LPG as a fuel source. The increase in
> > the price of LPG was threatening to put them out of business. With the
> > help of a grant from the State of Alabama they installed the new
> > biomass gasification unit and paid it off ($500,000.00 USD) in a year
> > and a half.
> >
> > There is another industry here struggling with LPG prices. Chicken
> > growers. These small rural farmers must heat their chicken houses
> > during cool or cold weather. Each house is 60 ft. wide by 200 ft.
> > long. They turn the houses over 6 times per year. Each time a flock is
> > sold, a layer of litter (peanut hulls and chicken waste) must be
> > removed from the floor of the house. While the litter poduced is being
> > used on some farmland  (a problem in itself), there is a large glut of
> > chicken litter piled around most of these farms. It is smelly, full of
> > avian pathogens and is a serious leachate problem.
> >
> > There is work being done to utilize this waste as a heat source for
> > these houses. The Alabama Department of Economic and Community Affairs
> > Science, Technology and Energy division (ADECA-STE) is very interested
> > in biomass as energy and has a grant program aimed at agricultural
> > energy efficiency.
> >
> > Questions:
> >
> > Can raw glycerine co-product from a biodiesel operation be effective
> > as a source of syngas in a gasifier?
> >
> > What implications from the soap content?
> >
> > Proposal:
> >
> > Since the removal of the litter from each house is a very dusty
> > operation, utilize raw glycerine co-product as a dust settler on the
> > surface of the litter with the added benefit of increasing the energy
> > content of the biomass. Use the waste biomass as fuel in a wood
> > gasification unit to produce heat for the chicken houses.
> >
> > As some of you know, I am running a wvo to biodiesel project for the
> > City of Eufaula, AL. I produce about 600 gal. of biodiesel per week
> > leaving me with approximately 90 gal. of raw glycerine co-product.
> > While this is not enough to treat the 400 chicken houses in the area,
> > it may be enough to demonstrate this idea on one or two farms. If the
> > addition of raw glycerine to chicken litter is workable,
> > perhaps it could create a reliable use for raw glycerine produced in a
> > larger scale biodiesel plant. The raw glycerine could be sold for
> > perhaps $.50-1.00 per gallon, a nice price that would have an impact
> > on the feasibility of a local biodiesel operation.
> >
> > I am just begining to think this through so any comments, positive or
> > negative, would be appreciated.
> >
> > Hoping all is well with each of you,
> >
> > Bill Clark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as fuel

[Bill Clark]

Sorry, error in my last post.
 
>...I am running a wvo to biodiesel project for 
the City of Eufaula, >AL. I produce about 600 gal. of biodiesel per week 
...
 
Should read "... I am running a biodiesel project 
for the City of Eufaula. I can produce about 600 gal. of biodiesel per 
week..."
 
Sorry again, I am a bad typist.
 
Bill Clark
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as fuel

[Appal Energy]

Acrolein is a co-/by-product of incomplete combustion of glycerol. One 
would think that at ~2,000* F (the "Wood Gun") the combustion process 
would be complete.


Todd Swearingen

R Del Bueno wrote:

Any concerns to possible toxic emissions...as with the concern of some 
SVOers?
I have heard that some nasty toxins are produced by the burning of 
crude glycerin..although I have no data on it.
Perhaps it is temperature (of combustion) related..and hence not an 
issue with a gasifier?



At 10:13 PM 6/4/2005, you wrote:


Bill,

One would imagine that a gasifier would reduce all components of the 
glyc cocktail to syn gas and char.


Gasification is a novel thought to reducing that waste/co-product to 
nill though. No addition of anything. No chemical refining. No new 
energy inputs. No disposal problem with the remaining crude glycerol.


A standard ratio/mix of biomass to cocktail might be just the ticket.

Here is a gasifier that we've been eying for a couple of years now.

http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/woodboilers.htm

It's the only one we've seen that might fit the ticket.

Todd Swearingen

Bill Clark wrote:


Hi to all,

Yesterday I visited a small wood veneer operation using a wood 
gasification unit to produce steam which heats the veneer driers.
They had previously been using LPG as a fuel source. The increase in 
the price of LPG was threatening to put them out of business. With 
the help of a grant from the State of Alabama they installed the new 
biomass gasification unit and paid it off ($500,000.00 USD) in a 
year and a half.


There is another industry here struggling with LPG prices. Chicken 
growers. These small rural farmers must heat their chicken houses 
during cool or cold weather. Each house is 60 ft. wide by 200 ft. 
long. They turn the houses over 6 times per year. Each time a flock 
is sold, a layer of litter (peanut hulls and chicken waste) must be 
removed from the floor of the house. While the litter poduced is 
being used on some farmland  (a problem in itself), there is a large 
glut of chicken litter piled around most of these farms. It is 
smelly, full of avian pathogens and is a serious leachate problem.


There is work being done to utilize this waste as a heat source for 
these houses. The Alabama Department of Economic and Community 
Affairs Science, Technology and Energy division (ADECA-STE) is very 
interested in biomass as energy and has a grant program aimed at 
agricultural energy efficiency.


Questions:

Can raw glycerine co-product from a biodiesel operation be effective 
as a source of syngas in a gasifier?


What implications from the soap content?

Proposal:

Since the removal of the litter from each house is a very dusty 
operation, utilize raw glycerine co-product as a dust settler on the 
surface of the litter with the added benefit of increasing the 
energy content of the biomass. Use the waste biomass as fuel in a 
wood gasification unit to produce heat for the chicken houses.


As some of you know, I am running a wvo to biodiesel project for the 
City of Eufaula, AL. I produce about 600 gal. of biodiesel per week 
leaving me with approximately 90 gal. of raw glycerine co-product. 
While this is not enough to treat the 400 chicken houses in the 
area, it may be enough to demonstrate this idea on one or two farms. 
If the addition of raw glycerine to chicken litter is workable,
perhaps it could create a reliable use for raw glycerine produced in 
a larger scale biodiesel plant. The raw glycerine could be sold for 
perhaps $.50-1.00 per gallon, a nice price that would have an impact 
on the feasibility of a local biodiesel operation.


I am just begining to think this through so any comments, positive 
or negative, would be appreciated.


Hoping all is well with each of you,

Bill Clark



 



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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as fuel

[R Del Bueno]

Any concerns to possible toxic emissions...as with the concern of some SVOers?
I have heard that some nasty toxins are produced by the burning of crude 
glycerin..although I have no data on it.
Perhaps it is temperature (of combustion) related..and hence not an issue 
with a gasifier?



At 10:13 PM 6/4/2005, you wrote:

Bill,

One would imagine that a gasifier would reduce all components of the glyc 
cocktail to syn gas and char.


Gasification is a novel thought to reducing that waste/co-product to nill 
though. No addition of anything. No chemical refining. No new energy 
inputs. No disposal problem with the remaining crude glycerol.


A standard ratio/mix of biomass to cocktail might be just the ticket.

Here is a gasifier that we've been eying for a couple of years now.

http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/woodboilers.htm

It's the only one we've seen that might fit the ticket.

Todd Swearingen

Bill Clark wrote:


Hi to all,

Yesterday I visited a small wood veneer operation using a wood 
gasification unit to produce steam which heats the veneer driers.
They had previously been using LPG as a fuel source. The increase in the 
price of LPG was threatening to put them out of business. With the help 
of a grant from the State of Alabama they installed the new biomass 
gasification unit and paid it off ($500,000.00 USD) in a year and a half.


There is another industry here struggling with LPG prices. Chicken 
growers. These small rural farmers must heat their chicken houses during 
cool or cold weather. Each house is 60 ft. wide by 200 ft. long. They 
turn the houses over 6 times per year. Each time a flock is sold, a layer 
of litter (peanut hulls and chicken waste) must be removed from the floor 
of the house. While the litter poduced is being used on some farmland  (a 
problem in itself), there is a large glut of chicken litter piled around 
most of these farms. It is smelly, full of avian pathogens and is a 
serious leachate problem.


There is work being done to utilize this waste as a heat source for these 
houses. The Alabama Department of Economic and Community Affairs Science, 
Technology and Energy division (ADECA-STE) is very interested in biomass 
as energy and has a grant program aimed at agricultural energy efficiency.


Questions:

Can raw glycerine co-product from a biodiesel operation be effective as a 
source of syngas in a gasifier?


What implications from the soap content?

Proposal:

Since the removal of the litter from each house is a very dusty 
operation, utilize raw glycerine co-product as a dust settler on the 
surface of the litter with the added benefit of increasing the energy 
content of the biomass. Use the waste biomass as fuel in a wood 
gasification unit to produce heat for the chicken houses.


As some of you know, I am running a wvo to biodiesel project for the City 
of Eufaula, AL. I produce about 600 gal. of biodiesel per week leaving me 
with approximately 90 gal. of raw glycerine co-product. While this is not 
enough to treat the 400 chicken houses in the area, it may be enough to 
demonstrate this idea on one or two farms. If the addition of raw 
glycerine to chicken litter is workable,
perhaps it could create a reliable use for raw glycerine produced in a 
larger scale biodiesel plant. The raw glycerine could be sold for perhaps 
$.50-1.00 per gallon, a nice price that would have an impact on the 
feasibility of a local biodiesel operation.


I am just begining to think this through so any comments, positive or 
negative, would be appreciated.


Hoping all is well with each of you,

Bill Clark





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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine as fuel

[Appal Energy]

Bill,

One would imagine that a gasifier would reduce all components of the 
glyc cocktail to syn gas and char.


Gasification is a novel thought to reducing that waste/co-product to 
nill though. No addition of anything. No chemical refining. No new 
energy inputs. No disposal problem with the remaining crude glycerol.


A standard ratio/mix of biomass to cocktail might be just the ticket.

Here is a gasifier that we've been eying for a couple of years now.

http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/woodboilers.htm

It's the only one we've seen that might fit the ticket.

Todd Swearingen

Bill Clark wrote:


Hi to all,
 
Yesterday I visited a small wood veneer operation using a wood 
gasification unit to produce steam which heats the veneer driers.
They had previously been using LPG as a fuel source. The increase in 
the price of LPG was threatening to put them out of business. With the 
help of a grant from the State of Alabama they installed the new 
biomass gasification unit and paid it off ($500,000.00 USD) in a year 
and a half.
 
There is another industry here struggling with LPG prices. Chicken 
growers. These small rural farmers must heat their chicken houses 
during cool or cold weather. Each house is 60 ft. wide by 200 ft. 
long. They turn the houses over 6 times per year. Each time a flock is 
sold, a layer of litter (peanut hulls and chicken waste) must be 
removed from the floor of the house. While the litter poduced is being 
used on some farmland  (a problem in itself), there is a large glut of 
chicken litter piled around most of these farms. It is smelly, full of 
avian pathogens and is a serious leachate problem.
 
There is work being done to utilize this waste as a heat source for 
these houses. The Alabama Department of Economic and Community Affairs 
Science, Technology and Energy division (ADECA-STE) is very interested 
in biomass as energy and has a grant program aimed at agricultural 
energy efficiency.
 
Questions:
 
Can raw glycerine co-product from a biodiesel operation be effective 
as a source of syngas in a gasifier?
 
What implications from the soap content?
 
Proposal:
 
Since the removal of the litter from each house is a very dusty 
operation, utilize raw glycerine co-product as a dust settler on the 
surface of the litter with the added benefit of increasing the energy 
content of the biomass. Use the waste biomass as fuel in a wood 
gasification unit to produce heat for the chicken houses.
 
As some of you know, I am running a wvo to biodiesel project for the 
City of Eufaula, AL. I produce about 600 gal. of biodiesel per week 
leaving me with approximately 90 gal. of raw glycerine co-product. 
While this is not enough to treat the 400 chicken houses in the area, 
it may be enough to demonstrate this idea on one or two farms. If the 
addition of raw glycerine to chicken litter is workable,
perhaps it could create a reliable use for raw glycerine produced in a 
larger scale biodiesel plant. The raw glycerine could be sold for 
perhaps $.50-1.00 per gallon, a nice price that would have an impact 
on the feasibility of a local biodiesel operation.
 
I am just begining to think this through so any comments, positive or 
negative, would be appreciated.
 
Hoping all is well with each of you,
 
Bill Clark
 
 




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[Biofuel] Glycerine as fuel

[Bill Clark]

Hi to all,
 
Yesterday I visited a small wood veneer operation 
using a wood gasification unit to produce steam which heats the veneer 
driers.
They had previously been using LPG as a fuel 
source. The increase in the price of LPG was threatening to put them out of 
business. With the help of a grant from the State of Alabama they installed the 
new biomass gasification unit and paid it off ($500,000.00 USD) in a year and a 
half.
 
There is another industry here struggling with LPG 
prices. Chicken growers. These small rural farmers must heat their chicken 
houses during cool or cold weather. Each house is 60 ft. wide by 200 ft. long. 
They turn the houses over 6 times per year. Each time a flock is sold, a layer 
of litter (peanut hulls and chicken waste) must be removed from the floor 
of the house. While the litter poduced is being used on some farmland  (a 
problem in itself), there is a large glut of chicken litter piled around most of 
these farms. It is smelly, full of avian pathogens and is a serious leachate 
problem.
 
There is work being done to utilize this waste as a 
heat source for these houses. The Alabama Department of Economic and Community 
Affairs Science, Technology and Energy division (ADECA-STE) is very interested 
in biomass as energy and has a grant program aimed at agricultural energy 
efficiency. 
 
Questions:
 
Can raw glycerine co-product from a biodiesel 
operation be effective as a source of syngas in a gasifier?
 
What implications from the soap 
content?
 
Proposal:
 
Since the removal of the litter from each house is 
a very dusty operation, utilize raw glycerine co-product as a dust settler on 
the surface of the litter with the added benefit of increasing the energy 
content of the biomass. Use the waste biomass as fuel in a wood gasification 
unit to produce heat for the chicken houses.
 
As some of you know, I am running a wvo to 
biodiesel project for the City of Eufaula, AL. I produce about 600 gal. of 
biodiesel per week leaving me with approximately 90 gal. of raw glycerine 
co-product. While this is not enough to treat the 400 chicken houses in the 
area, it may be enough to demonstrate this idea on one or two farms. If the 
addition of raw glycerine to chicken litter is workable,
perhaps it could create a reliable use for 
raw glycerine produced in a larger scale biodiesel plant. The raw glycerine 
could be sold for perhaps $.50-1.00 per gallon, a nice price that would have an 
impact on the feasibility of a local biodiesel operation.
 
I am just begining to think this through so any 
comments, positive or negative, would be appreciated.
 
Hoping all is well with each of you,
 
Bill Clark
 
 
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[Biofuel] glycerine soap making

[Jeremy & Tracy Longworth]

For those who use a lower % of (c.o.) in your recipe, Castor oil can be used to 
increase your bubble action. 

Tracy

> AntiFossil wrote
> I have been making my own soap for about 14 years now.  The only real
> "secret" that I have found in regards to fantastic foaming action of your
> soaps is the inclusion of coconut oil (c.o.) in your recipe.  I am aware
> that a few of the more popular websites, and even books written on the
> subject, warn against using too high a percentage of c.o. because of its
> drying effects on the skin.  However, I keep the percentage of c.o. in my
> soap between 20% and 40%, and haven't had any problems with excessively
dry
> skin.  Common sense must also come in to play of course.  If you start
with
> dry skin, you would definitely want to stay on lower end of those
> percentages with c.o., and increase the hydrating oils like olive, and
> settle for less foaming soap.
>
> AntiFossil
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[Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Legal Eagle]

the 15% :-)
Luc 



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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Andrew Cunningham]

Let me just make sure I had all the details first, since some things
were left unsaid and require assumptions.  If I read what you are
saying correctly, I agree with Keith on this one and it doesn't appear
viable.

1)You make BioD with the Lye/methanol method
2)Separate out the BioD from the glycerin/soap/lye/methanol by gravity.  
{Note: You do not acidify the layer and convert the Soap back to FFA.}
3)Boil off the methanol (possible recovery but inmaterial to
discussion) and leaves you with glycerin/soap/lye.
4)You add water and more lye and mix

IF the above is what you are doing, this will leave you with the same
amount of glycerin, the same amount of soap, more lye and water.

The only way you would get more soap would be if you had left over
BioD or unreacted oil in there that didn't separate out in step 2. 
Even then you would still end up with lye heavy soap and it would be
very harsh.

FFANa+   OH-   (aq) <->Soap   and   water 
BioD   Na+   OH-   (aq) <->Soap   and   methanol
Oil  Na+   OH-   (aq)   ->Soap   and   glycerin

One viable option would be to take some water and unreacted oil and
add the glycerin layer (without the methanol).  Do not add anymore
lye.  The extra oil can react with the lye left over in the glycerin
layer and make soap.  You know how much lye you added so you can
estimate the amount of oil to add to use up all the lye from the
reaction.  You do not want any lye unreacted in soap as it will make
it very harsh.

I hope this helps, but if anything in the 4 steps at the beginning is
off let me know and I can go through the reactions based on your
actual process.

Andy







On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 04:15:03 +0900, Keith Addison
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Luc
> 
> As you know I'm a bit sceptical but do not seek to discourage! I'm
> most interested to see what you achieve.
> 
> >What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by product ? We can
> >follow through with the seperation of the components an get a close
> >to pure glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we can use
> >it to make soap. JtF has a few good articles on that too.
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
> >I am in the process of experiementing with a couple recipes that, I
> >hope, will give a fairly decent usable product. I have used some as
> >a body soap and it works great, however very little foamong action
> >and that is a problem in most circles, so I am trying three
> >diffenrent approaches.
> >1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
> >2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
> >30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
> 
> The amount of lye needed will depend on how much you used in the
> biodiesel process, ie on the titration result.
> 
> >Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by raising the temps
> >above 65C (148.5F)
> 
> Well above - probably until it stops bubbling. Not something to do in
> an enclosed space.
> 
> >and then the NaOH disolved into a little more than warm water. Once
> >the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C (110F) then mix in the
> >water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two. Pour into a
> >mold and let settle. How long will be subject of another post when I
> >have it figured out :-)
> >The first one has had two weeks to settle out anything that was
> >going to do that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a
> >portion of the hardened glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but
> >the result was still solid bars.
> >The second and third recipes are yet to be finished however they
> >already show more potential, primarily the third which began
> >solidifying almost immediately and shows good promise.
> 
> The trouble is it's not just glycerine, and if it were you wouldn't
> be able to make soap out of it - glycerine is an ingredient of soap,
> a non-essential ingredient furthermore. Soap is made out of fats and
> oils, and the fats and oils you'll be making soap out of this way
> (soap with a VERY high glycerine content) (and a high content of
> impurities) will be the Free Fatty Acids displaced from the brew by
> the NaOH. Aka soapstock or foots. Not the ideal material for the
> making of quality soap. From about soapstock/foots here:
> 
> The Fats and Oils: a General View, by Carl L. Alsberg and Alonzo E.
> Taylor, 1928, Food
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#fatsoils
> 
> Food Fats and Oils (1994) -- online book (Acrobat file, 1.3Mb):
> http://www.iseo.org/foodfatsoils.pdf
> 
> >I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of this as we go along.
> 
> Please do, and good luck.
> 
> >No sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it can be used
> >eh? I am determined that it will.
> 
> There are other choices before you get to throwing it away. Before
> you get to composting it too.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> >Luc
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Greg Harbican]

I like using avocado oil my self.

Menthol makes a nice addition to bathroom soap.It is really nice to
shave with.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 09:13
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making


> While I have not been making my soap for as long as Mike, I have found
that
> I do not use any coconut, I use goat tallow for really creamy lather.  It
> is very kind to older skin, but cleans younger skin perfectly.  If you
want
> a more hydrating soap, add 20% emu tallow.  I only use coconut for dish
> washing soap, and at that I have to add something to protect my hands from
> its drying measures, usually olive oil in a liquid [KOAH] based soap.
Many
> tallows such as rabbit and lamb also lather very well.
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
> At 08:52 PM 2/11/2005, you wrote:
> >I have been making my own soap for about 14 years now.  The only real
> >"secret" that I have found in regards to fantastic foaming action of your
> >soaps is the inclusion of coconut oil (c.o.) in your recipe.  I am aware
> >that a few of the more popular websites, and even books written on the
> >subject, warn against using too high a percentage of c.o. because of its
> >drying effects on the skin.  However, I keep the percentage of c.o. in my
> >soap between 20% and 40%, and haven't had any problems with excessively
dry
> >skin.  Common sense must also come in to play of course.  If you start
with
> >dry skin, you would definitely want to stay on lower end of those
> >percentages with c.o., and increase the hydrating oils like olive, and
> >settle for less foaming soap.
> >
> >AntiFossil
> >Mike Krafka USA
> >
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Phillip Wolfe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:21 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making
> >
> >
> > > Dear Legal Eagle,
> > >
> > > There is an industrial and commercial method of using
> > > refined glycerin for the manufacturing of natural
> > > soaps and detergents (and the harsher soaps too).
> > >
> > > As JFT advocates, there is a personal quest too -
> > > making your own stuff.
> > >
> > > In the industrial and commercial world there is a
> > > worldwide "glut" of glcyerin! compared to a couple
> > > years ago. I've been following this recently.
> > >
> > > But on the personal level, me thinks the idea of
> > > making homegrown soaps is pretty neat.
> > >
> > > It can be Family get together like making ice cream!
> > >
> > > Take care and good luck!
> > >
> > > --- Legal Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by
> > > > product ? We can follow
> > > > through with the seperation of the components an get
> > > > a close to pure
> > > > glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we
> > > > can use it to make soap.
> > > > JtF has a few good articles on that too.
> > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
> > > > I am in the process of experiementing with a couple
> > > > recipes that, I hope,
> > > > will give a fairly decent usable product. I have
> > > > used some as a body soap
> > > > and it works great, however very little foamong
> > > > action and that is a problem
> > > > in most circles, so I am trying three diffenrent
> > > > approaches.
> > > > 1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > > > by product
> > > > 2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > > > by product
> > > > 30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > > > by product
> > > >
> > > > Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by
> > > > raising the temps above
> > > > 65C (148.5F) and then the NaOH disolved into a
> > > > little more than warm water.
> > > > Once the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C
> > > > (110F) then mix in the
> > > > water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two.
> > > > Pour into a mold and
> > > > let settle. How long will be subject of another post
> > > > when I have it figured
> > > > out :-)
> > > >

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I do not use any coconut, I use goat tallow for really creamy lather.  It 
is very kind to older skin, but cleans younger skin perfectly.  If you want 
a more hydrating soap, add 20% emu tallow.  I only use coconut for dish 
washing soap, and at that I have to add something to protect my hands from 
its drying measures, usually olive oil in a liquid [KOAH] based soap.  Many 
tallows such as rabbit and lamb also lather very well.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:52 PM 2/11/2005, you wrote:

I have been making my own soap for about 14 years now.  The only real
"secret" that I have found in regards to fantastic foaming action of your
soaps is the inclusion of coconut oil (c.o.) in your recipe.  I am aware
that a few of the more popular websites, and even books written on the
subject, warn against using too high a percentage of c.o. because of its
drying effects on the skin.  However, I keep the percentage of c.o. in my
soap between 20% and 40%, and haven't had any problems with excessively dry
skin.  Common sense must also come in to play of course.  If you start with
dry skin, you would definitely want to stay on lower end of those
percentages with c.o., and increase the hydrating oils like olive, and
settle for less foaming soap.

AntiFossil
Mike Krafka USA


- Original Message -
From: "Phillip Wolfe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making


> Dear Legal Eagle,
>
> There is an industrial and commercial method of using
> refined glycerin for the manufacturing of natural
> soaps and detergents (and the harsher soaps too).
>
> As JFT advocates, there is a personal quest too -
> making your own stuff.
>
> In the industrial and commercial world there is a
> worldwide "glut" of glcyerin! compared to a couple
> years ago. I've been following this recently.
>
> But on the personal level, me thinks the idea of
> making homegrown soaps is pretty neat.
>
> It can be Family get together like making ice cream!
>
> Take care and good luck!
>
> --- Legal Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by
> > product ? We can follow
> > through with the seperation of the components an get
> > a close to pure
> > glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we
> > can use it to make soap.
> > JtF has a few good articles on that too.
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
> > I am in the process of experiementing with a couple
> > recipes that, I hope,
> > will give a fairly decent usable product. I have
> > used some as a body soap
> > and it works great, however very little foamong
> > action and that is a problem
> > in most circles, so I am trying three diffenrent
> > approaches.
> > 1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > by product
> > 2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > by product
> > 30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > by product
> >
> > Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by
> > raising the temps above
> > 65C (148.5F) and then the NaOH disolved into a
> > little more than warm water.
> > Once the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C
> > (110F) then mix in the
> > water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two.
> > Pour into a mold and
> > let settle. How long will be subject of another post
> > when I have it figured
> > out :-)
> > The first one has had two weeks to settle out
> > anything that was going to do
> > that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a
> > portion of the hardened
> > glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but the result
> > was still solid bars.
> > The second and third recipes are yet to be finished
> > however they already
> > show more potential, primarily the third which began
> > solidifying almost
> > immediately and shows good promise.
> > I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of
> > this as we go along. No
> > sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it
> > can be used eh? I am
> > determined that it will.
> > Luc
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
> > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> >
>
>
>
>
> __
> Do you 

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Legal Eagle]

Luc
- Original Message - 
From: "Legal Eagle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making



G'day Pieter;

What I am doing here is experimenting in an attempt to make the by product 
useful to me. Best to follow the instructional links given in Keith's post 
about it for now.

I will post any information once I have it.

Kim:
No "volcanoes" yet, not so much as a bubble.

- Original Message - 
From: "Pieter Koole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making



Hi,
Thanks for writing some about making soap from the glycerin by-product.
You write about 10 grams (or more)  of NaOH per liter of glyc.
How or what do you count the already used amount of NaOH during the BD
proces, which we find back in the by-product ?


Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands.




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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Legal Eagle]

What I am doing here is experimenting in an attempt to make the by product 
useful to me. Best to follow the instructional links given in Keith's post 
about it for now.

I will post any information once I have it.

Kim:
No "volcanoes" yet, not so much as a bubble.

- Original Message - 
From: "Pieter Koole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making



Hi,
Thanks for writing some about making soap from the glycerin by-product.
You write about 10 grams (or more)  of NaOH per liter of glyc.
How or what do you count the already used amount of NaOH during the BD
proces, which we find back in the by-product ?


Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands.




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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Pieter Koole]

Hi,
Thanks for writing some about making soap from the glycerin by-product.
You write about 10 grams (or more)  of NaOH per liter of glyc.
How or what do you count the already used amount of NaOH during the BD
proces, which we find back in the by-product ?


Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands.

- Original Message -
From: "Legal Eagle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 7:08 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making


> What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by product ? We can
follow
> through with the seperation of the components an get a close to pure
> glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we can use it to make
soap.
> JtF has a few good articles on that too.
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
> I am in the process of experiementing with a couple recipes that, I hope,
> will give a fairly decent usable product. I have used some as a body soap
> and it works great, however very little foamong action and that is a
problem
> in most circles, so I am trying three diffenrent approaches.
> 1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
> 2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
> 30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
>
> Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by raising the temps above
> 65C (148.5F) and then the NaOH disolved into a little more than warm
water.
> Once the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C (110F) then mix in the
> water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two. Pour into a mold and
> let settle. How long will be subject of another post when I have it
figured
> out :-)
> The first one has had two weeks to settle out anything that was going to
do
> that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a portion of the hardened
> glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but the result was still solid bars.
> The second and third recipes are yet to be finished however they already
> show more potential, primarily the third which began solidifying almost
> immediately and shows good promise.
> I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of this as we go along.
No
> sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it can be used eh? I am
> determined that it will.
> Luc
>
>
> ___
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
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>
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Legal Eagle]

You are relating to SVO soap no? Like an olive oil castille? What I am on 
about is using the glycerine by-product from biodiesel production and 
converting that into a usable soap.
So far so good by the way. Everything is hardening up nicely, as expected 
(hoped). Now only leaves to see what becomes of it once it has cured for 
awhile.

Luc
- Original Message - 
From: "Anti-Fossil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making



I have been making my own soap for about 14 years now.  The only real
"secret" that I have found in regards to fantastic foaming action of your
soaps is the inclusion of coconut oil (c.o.) in your recipe.  I am aware
that a few of the more popular websites, and even books written on the
subject, warn against using too high a percentage of c.o. because of its
drying effects on the skin.  However, I keep the percentage of c.o. in my
soap between 20% and 40%, and haven't had any problems with excessively 
dry
skin.  Common sense must also come in to play of course.  If you start 
with

dry skin, you would definitely want to stay on lower end of those
percentages with c.o., and increase the hydrating oils like olive, and
settle for less foaming soap.

AntiFossil
Mike Krafka USA


- Original Message - 
From: "Phillip Wolfe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making



Dear Legal Eagle,

There is an industrial and commercial method of using
refined glycerin for the manufacturing of natural
soaps and detergents (and the harsher soaps too).

As JFT advocates, there is a personal quest too -
making your own stuff.

In the industrial and commercial world there is a
worldwide "glut" of glcyerin! compared to a couple
years ago. I've been following this recently.

But on the personal level, me thinks the idea of
making homegrown soaps is pretty neat.

It can be Family get together like making ice cream!

Take care and good luck!

--- Legal Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by
> product ? We can follow
> through with the seperation of the components an get
> a close to pure
> glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we
> can use it to make soap.
> JtF has a few good articles on that too.
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
> I am in the process of experiementing with a couple
> recipes that, I hope,
> will give a fairly decent usable product. I have
> used some as a body soap
> and it works great, however very little foamong
> action and that is a problem
> in most circles, so I am trying three diffenrent
> approaches.
> 1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> by product
> 2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> by product
> 30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> by product
>
> Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by
> raising the temps above
> 65C (148.5F) and then the NaOH disolved into a
> little more than warm water.
> Once the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C
> (110F) then mix in the
> water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two.
> Pour into a mold and
> let settle. How long will be subject of another post
> when I have it figured
> out :-)
> The first one has had two weeks to settle out
> anything that was going to do
> that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a
> portion of the hardened
> glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but the result
> was still solid bars.
> The second and third recipes are yet to be finished
> however they already
> show more potential, primarily the third which began
> solidifying almost
> immediately and shows good promise.
> I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of
> this as we go along. No
> sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it
> can be used eh? I am
> determined that it will.
> Luc
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>




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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Anti-Fossil]

I have been making my own soap for about 14 years now.  The only real
"secret" that I have found in regards to fantastic foaming action of your
soaps is the inclusion of coconut oil (c.o.) in your recipe.  I am aware
that a few of the more popular websites, and even books written on the
subject, warn against using too high a percentage of c.o. because of its
drying effects on the skin.  However, I keep the percentage of c.o. in my
soap between 20% and 40%, and haven't had any problems with excessively dry
skin.  Common sense must also come in to play of course.  If you start with
dry skin, you would definitely want to stay on lower end of those
percentages with c.o., and increase the hydrating oils like olive, and
settle for less foaming soap.

AntiFossil
Mike Krafka USA


- Original Message - 
From: "Phillip Wolfe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making


> Dear Legal Eagle,
>
> There is an industrial and commercial method of using
> refined glycerin for the manufacturing of natural
> soaps and detergents (and the harsher soaps too).
>
> As JFT advocates, there is a personal quest too -
> making your own stuff.
>
> In the industrial and commercial world there is a
> worldwide "glut" of glcyerin! compared to a couple
> years ago. I've been following this recently.
>
> But on the personal level, me thinks the idea of
> making homegrown soaps is pretty neat.
>
> It can be Family get together like making ice cream!
>
> Take care and good luck!
>
> --- Legal Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by
> > product ? We can follow
> > through with the seperation of the components an get
> > a close to pure
> > glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we
> > can use it to make soap.
> > JtF has a few good articles on that too.
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
> > I am in the process of experiementing with a couple
> > recipes that, I hope,
> > will give a fairly decent usable product. I have
> > used some as a body soap
> > and it works great, however very little foamong
> > action and that is a problem
> > in most circles, so I am trying three diffenrent
> > approaches.
> > 1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > by product
> > 2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > by product
> > 30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > by product
> >
> > Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by
> > raising the temps above
> > 65C (148.5F) and then the NaOH disolved into a
> > little more than warm water.
> > Once the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C
> > (110F) then mix in the
> > water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two.
> > Pour into a mold and
> > let settle. How long will be subject of another post
> > when I have it figured
> > out :-)
> > The first one has had two weeks to settle out
> > anything that was going to do
> > that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a
> > portion of the hardened
> > glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but the result
> > was still solid bars.
> > The second and third recipes are yet to be finished
> > however they already
> > show more potential, primarily the third which began
> > solidifying almost
> > immediately and shows good promise.
> > I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of
> > this as we go along. No
> > sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it
> > can be used eh? I am
> > determined that it will.
> > Luc
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
> > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Legal Eagle]

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Redler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making



Hi Luc and everyone,

I forwarded your email to my girlfriend. I thought she might have 
something to say about all this "biofuel stuff". Anyway, she's pretty 
knowledgeable (PhD in chemistry - Dartmuth) and has a few comments about 
the process you are suggesting.


If I developed a similar process and she had commented likewise, I'd be 
pretty happy about that (even if she makes me happy anyway).


Nice job!


Thanks, although I cannot take the credit for originality. Just like my 
reactor/wash tank design is an acumulation of other peoples' ideas that I 
fit to my particular situation so it is with this.

http://eline2000.com/eline/articles/barsoap/barsoap.htm is the original.


:-)

Mike
_
She writes:

Hi Honey,

Perhaps winter would be a better time to try not buying soap

If you get really good at making bars, we can always try adding things 
like fragrances and cool designs, and then you can sell it...


Yup ! In my case however there are people who have voiced an interest (if I 
can get it right) in non-fragranced glycerine based soap as they have 
"reactions" to the perfume in commercial soap. We didn't have the time to 
explain to  them what the commecial hard bar soap actually has in it. In 
order to up their profit margins Corporate has removed the glycerine from 
the soap, however in order to make it still stay hard they add a special 
hardener (no, it doesn't start with a "V") which is actually a promoter of 
bacterial growth (yuk), not so with soft soap.


As far as the process goes, it sounds reasonable.  I have two comments 
however.  First, you really don't need to use "a little more than warm 
water" to dissolve NaOH; it is readily soluble in water and actually 
produces its own heat when you mix the two.


Actually you do, in spite of the self heating properties, as you want it 
close to the temparature of the gkycerine you are pouring it into. I did one 
batch (which failed miserably) where the glycerine was still over 60C (140F) 
and the water/NaOH mix was just barely warmed and the thing took on a life 
of it's own. I mean it was bubbling and carrying on and ended up making 
sponge soap, ha! Useless anyway.



Second, I would caution against increasing the amount of NaOH much above 
15-20 g/L because NaOH is caustic and can burn the skin if it's too 
concentrated.


Wise counsel. The original recipe called for, are you ready? 38.5gr/liter ! 
Afetr the disaster batch I figured I would never mind the recipe (like any 
good chef does) and go it by trials.
I have no plans to go over the 20gr/liter though as that seems to be quite 
enough. Actaully I might even decrease it depending on what the results of 
the test runs give. The second and third ones look REALLY good at this point 
but we won't know until it has cured awhile and I take it into the bathroom 
and wash something with it, my hands most likely. LOL! Dry *hands* I can 
live with ...
Now apparently using KOH produces a liquid soap as it doesn't harden like 
the glycerine with NaOH will, but that will have to be someone else's toy as 
I haven't started using that as yet. Seems that it would be simpler though, 
after all you don't have to worry about it getting hard.

Luc

I've attached an MSDS in case you would like to know more.


Thanks again, I already have it.


Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Honey,

This one's on-topic.

Maybe I'll stop buying soap this summer :-)

Mike




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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Keith Addison]

As you know I'm a bit sceptical but do not seek to discourage! I'm 
most interested to see what you achieve.


What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by product ? We can 
follow through with the seperation of the components an get a close 
to pure glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we can use 
it to make soap. JtF has a few good articles on that too.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
I am in the process of experiementing with a couple recipes that, I 
hope, will give a fairly decent usable product. I have used some as 
a body soap and it works great, however very little foamong action 
and that is a problem in most circles, so I am trying three 
diffenrent approaches.

1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product


The amount of lye needed will depend on how much you used in the 
biodiesel process, ie on the titration result.


Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by raising the temps 
above 65C (148.5F)


Well above - probably until it stops bubbling. Not something to do in 
an enclosed space.


and then the NaOH disolved into a little more than warm water. Once 
the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C (110F) then mix in the 
water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two. Pour into a 
mold and let settle. How long will be subject of another post when I 
have it figured out :-)
The first one has had two weeks to settle out anything that was 
going to do that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a 
portion of the hardened glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but 
the result was still solid bars.
The second and third recipes are yet to be finished however they 
already show more potential, primarily the third which began 
solidifying almost immediately and shows good promise.


The trouble is it's not just glycerine, and if it were you wouldn't 
be able to make soap out of it - glycerine is an ingredient of soap, 
a non-essential ingredient furthermore. Soap is made out of fats and 
oils, and the fats and oils you'll be making soap out of this way 
(soap with a VERY high glycerine content) (and a high content of 
impurities) will be the Free Fatty Acids displaced from the brew by 
the NaOH. Aka soapstock or foots. Not the ideal material for the 
making of quality soap. From about soapstock/foots here:


The Fats and Oils: a General View, by Carl L. Alsberg and Alonzo E. 
Taylor, 1928, Food 
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#fatsoils


Food Fats and Oils (1994) -- online book (Acrobat file, 1.3Mb):
http://www.iseo.org/foodfatsoils.pdf


I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of this as we go along.


Please do, and good luck.

No sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it can be used 
eh? I am determined that it will.


There are other choices before you get to throwing it away. Before 
you get to composting it too.


Best wishes

Keith



Luc


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Michael Redler]

Hi Luc and everyone,
 
I forwarded your email to my girlfriend. I thought she might have something to 
say about all this "biofuel stuff". Anyway, she's pretty knowledgeable (PhD in 
chemistry - Dartmuth) and has a few comments about the process you are 
suggesting.
 
If I developed a similar process and she had commented likewise, I'd be pretty 
happy about that (even if she makes me happy anyway).
 
Nice job!
 
:-)
 
Mike
_
She writes:
 
Hi Honey,
 
Perhaps winter would be a better time to try not buying soap 
 
If you get really good at making bars, we can always try adding things like 
fragrances and cool designs, and then you can sell it...
 
As far as the process goes, it sounds reasonable.  I have two comments however. 
 First, you really don't need to use "a little more than warm water" to 
dissolve NaOH; it is readily soluble in water and actually produces its own 
heat when you mix the two. Second, I would caution against increasing the 
amount of NaOH much above 15-20 g/L because NaOH is caustic and can burn the 
skin if it's too concentrated.  I've attached an MSDS in case you would like to 
know more.

Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
Hi Honey,
 
This one's on-topic.
 
Maybe I'll stop buying soap this summer :-)
 
Mike

Legal Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
From: "Legal Eagle" 
To: 
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:08:24 -0500
CC: 
Subject: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by product ? We can follow 
through with the seperation of the components an get a close to pure 
glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we can use it to make soap. 
JtF has a few good articles on that too.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
I am in the process of experiementing with a couple recipes that, I hope, 
will give a fairly decent usable product. I have used some as a body soap 
and it works great, however very little foamong action and that is a problem 
in most circles, so I am trying three diffenrent approaches.
1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product

Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by raising the temps above 
65C (148.5F) and then the NaOH disolved into a little more than warm water. 
Once the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C (110F) then mix in the 
water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two. Pour into a mold and 
let settle. How long will be subject of another post when I have it figured 
out :-)
The first one has had two weeks to settle out anything that was going to do 
that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a portion of the hardened 
glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but the result was still solid bars.
The second and third recipes are yet to be finished however they already 
show more potential, primarily the third which began solidifying almost 
immediately and shows good promise.
I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of this as we go along. No 
sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it can be used eh? I am 
determined that it will.
Luc 


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Phillip Wolfe]

Dear Legal Eagle,

There is an industrial and commercial method of using
refined glycerin for the manufacturing of natural
soaps and detergents (and the harsher soaps too).

As JFT advocates, there is a personal quest too -
making your own stuff.

In the industrial and commercial world there is a
worldwide "glut" of glcyerin! compared to a couple
years ago. I've been following this recently. 

But on the personal level, me thinks the idea of
making homegrown soaps is pretty neat.

It can be Family get together like making ice cream!

Take care and good luck!

--- Legal Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by
> product ? We can follow 
> through with the seperation of the components an get
> a close to pure 
> glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we
> can use it to make soap. 
> JtF has a few good articles on that too.
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
> I am in the process of experiementing with a couple
> recipes that, I hope, 
> will give a fairly decent usable product. I have
> used some as a body soap 
> and it works great, however very little foamong
> action and that is a problem 
> in most circles, so I am trying three diffenrent
> approaches.
> 1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> by product
> 2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> by product
> 30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> by product
> 
> Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by
> raising the temps above 
> 65C (148.5F) and then the NaOH disolved into a
> little more than warm water. 
> Once the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C
> (110F) then mix in the 
> water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two.
> Pour into a mold and 
> let settle. How long will be subject of another post
> when I have it figured 
> out :-)
> The first one has had two weeks to settle out
> anything that was going to do 
> that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a
> portion of the hardened 
> glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but the result
> was still solid bars.
> The second and third recipes are yet to be finished
> however they already 
> show more potential, primarily the third which began
> solidifying almost 
> immediately and shows good promise.
> I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of
> this as we go along. No 
> sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it
> can be used eh? I am 
> determined that it will.
> Luc 
> 
> 
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[Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Legal Eagle]

through with the seperation of the components an get a close to pure 
glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we can use it to make soap. 
JtF has a few good articles on that too.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
I am in the process of experiementing with a couple recipes that, I hope, 
will give a fairly decent usable product. I have used some as a body soap 
and it works great, however very little foamong action and that is a problem 
in most circles, so I am trying three diffenrent approaches.

1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product
30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product

Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by raising the temps above 
65C (148.5F) and then the NaOH disolved into a little more than warm water. 
Once the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C (110F) then mix in the 
water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two. Pour into a mold and 
let settle. How long will be subject of another post when I have it figured 
out :-)
The first one has had two weeks to settle out anything that was going to do 
that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a portion of the hardened 
glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but the result was still solid bars.
The second and third recipes are yet to be finished however they already 
show more potential, primarily the third which began solidifying almost 
immediately and shows good promise.
I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of this as we go along. No 
sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it can be used eh? I am 
determined that it will.
Luc 



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[biofuel] Glycerine Separation

[Tan]

Hi! Can anyone describe the color of the glycerine-methanol layer after
treatment with phosphoric acid? According to JTF, it's sherry colored. Could
you elaborate more? Is that dark sherry or yellow sherry?

Thanks,

Chris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: [biofuel] glycerine distillation

[Keith Addison]

he thin-film evaporator rather 
than the set-up described above for raw by-product, which would wreck 
the glycerine, right? Or is that wrong?

Presuming it's right, that's a more complex bit of kit you need, plus 
85% phosphoric acid - quite a lot of it, not very cheap. Roughly, you 
need almost a litre per 10 litres of by-product to be separated. Plus 
the heat energy for distillation, whether free or not. So you'd have 
to work out the economics of it - is it worth it to you? There's the 
saving of recycling the excess methanol, but do you have a ready 
market for tech-grade glycerine, preferably a market for the 
potassium phosphates rather than just using it on the land or in the 
compost, which amounts to useful disposal but no cost recovery, and a 
good fuel use for the FFA? Or a market for it as weed-killer or 
whatever.

So you have to figure all these variables to know when, for you, is 
the best stage to reclaim the methanol, if any. My guess is the 
bigger the operation, to more worthwhile it'll be. Home-scale? Again, 
if I were using the 120-litre processor I mentioned with the 
condensor in the lid, I'd do it that way. I may well do just that, 
adapting that system to our 90-litre processor set-up.

Anything to add? Or change? Much more, obviously, about thin film 
evaporators and heat-exchangers and so on, but is this outline of the 
methanol-recovery options valid, think ye, o wise ones?

Any opinions on Mark's tip on the flash evaporators used in the jam 
and jelly industry?

Regards

Keith


>Martin,
>
>Thin film evaporators (industriall "wiped thin film" evaporators are used)
>and vacuum are a must for glycerol.
>http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0624.htm
>
>Fifteen mm Hg is not an exceptionally strong vacuum. There are ~760 mm Hg
>per atmosphere. However, fifteen inches would be moderate.
>
>I presume the thought that "you wouldn't need a lot of volume" is referring
>to not needing a large mechanical unit to effect a distillation? That would
>be true. But you wouldn't get much output either. The biggest limitting
>factor is not just the time it takes to elevate the temp of any given
>volume, but the rate of exchange ("recharge rate") required at a given flow
>rate to maintain that temp.
>
>Not the most efficient process to be conducting with electric heat.
>
>And even when all things are said and done? The cost of testing and insuring
>(liability) that the recovered product is food or cosmetic grade is one of
>the higher costs in the entire process. Tech grade is a much less involved
>matter. The glycerol recovered after alcohol recovery post FFA separation is
>tech grade. The problem is that the glycerol (and water) will still have the
>odour of the original feedstock unless it's descented somewhere along the
>way.
>
>That alone causes some disconcerting problems with glycerol recovery and use
>from WVO.
>
>Todd Swearingen
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:39 PM
>Subject: [biofuel] glycerine distillation
>
>
> > Todd, do you think a thin film evaporator could be used to distill the
>glycerine?
> > I just did some research of my own, and it looks like would have to keep
>the glycerine below the flash point (176C) which means you'd need a vacuum
>of about 15mmHg (that's a pretty strong vacuum I assume)
> >
> > Would you still need a high volume pump if you did something like this:
> >
> > --
> > |...
> >
> > The distilled glycerine would drop out and you wouldn't need a lot of
>volume right?
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Martin Klingensmith
> > http://infoarchive.net/
> > http://nnytech.net/
> >
> >
> >
> > Appal Energy wrote:
> >
> > >Pieter,
> > >
> > >I suppose you could heat it 'til it smokes and be relatively secure in
>the
> > >belief that you done sumptin' wrong. (Been that. Done there.)
> > >
> > >I couldn't tell you precisely what temperature is the cut off point to
> > >prevent degradation
> > >
> > >The MeOH won't evaporate until the composite liquid (alcohol and
>bioidesel)
> > >reaches ~160*F. (Sorry. It's an "American thang.") That would mean a temp
> > >rise of ~40*F after a settled reaction - presuming that you're using an
> > >insulated reactor or settling tank.
> > >
> > >I wouldn't suggest a pot still due to the fact that the alcohol has to
>rise
> > >through a thick layer of biodiesel before it can escape. A thin fil

Re: [biofuel] glycerine distillation

[Appal Energy]

Yeah Ken,

> Bummer that the only people that want glycerine
> (summer, et.al.) are gonna REALLY care how it
> smells :-)-K

I still think that the best end use for home and small producers is as a
fuel of some sort.

While glycerol is an alcohol, it is also essentially a sugar. It can be
fermented using some rather obtrusive baterium. Here is a spot from
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~sgregory/chem/polymer.html
Some of the natural poly-ols hold promise for something that is by and large
a waste product for small producers. Refiners will take it, but only by the
truck or railroad tanker loads. I think I'd rather see it go towards the
manufacture of natural urethanes than as sweetener for carmeled soda water.

Todd Swearingen


- Original Message - 
From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine distillation


> on 10/30/03 5:36 PM, Appal Energy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >
> > And even when all things are said and done? The
> > cost of testing and insuring (liability) that the
> > recovered product is food or cosmetic grade is one
> > of the higher costs in the entire process. Tech grade
> > is a much less involved matter. ...The problem is
> > that the glycerol (and water) will still have the
> > odour of the original feedstock
>
> Bummer that the only people that want glycerine
> (summer, et.al.) are gonna REALLY care how it
> smells :-)-K
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerine distillation

[Ken Provost]

on 10/30/03 5:36 PM, Appal Energy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>
> And even when all things are said and done? The
> cost of testing and insuring (liability) that the
> recovered product is food or cosmetic grade is one
> of the higher costs in the entire process. Tech grade
> is a much less involved matter. ...The problem is
> that the glycerol (and water) will still have the
> odour of the original feedstock

Bummer that the only people that want glycerine
(summer, et.al.) are gonna REALLY care how it
smells :-)-K


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Re: [biofuel] glycerine distillation

[Appal Energy]

Martin,

Thin film evaporators (industriall "wiped thin film" evaporators are used)
and vacuum are a must for glycerol.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0624.htm

Fifteen mm Hg is not an exceptionally strong vacuum. There are ~760 mm Hg
per atmosphere. However, fifteen inches would be moderate.

I presume the thought that "you wouldn't need a lot of volume" is referring
to not needing a large mechanical unit to effect a distillation? That would
be true. But you wouldn't get much output either. The biggest limitting
factor is not just the time it takes to elevate the temp of any given
volume, but the rate of exchange ("recharge rate") required at a given flow
rate to maintain that temp.

Not the most efficient process to be conducting with electric heat.

And even when all things are said and done? The cost of testing and insuring
(liability) that the recovered product is food or cosmetic grade is one of
the higher costs in the entire process. Tech grade is a much less involved
matter. The glycerol recovered after alcohol recovery post FFA separation is
tech grade. The problem is that the glycerol (and water) will still have the
odour of the original feedstock unless it's descented somewhere along the
way.

That alone causes some disconcerting problems with glycerol recovery and use
from WVO.

Todd Swearingen


- Original Message - 
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:39 PM
Subject: [biofuel] glycerine distillation


> Todd, do you think a thin film evaporator could be used to distill the
glycerine?
> I just did some research of my own, and it looks like would have to keep
the glycerine below the flash point (176C) which means you'd need a vacuum
of about 15mmHg (that's a pretty strong vacuum I assume)
>
> Would you still need a high volume pump if you did something like this:
>
> --
> |...
>
> The distilled glycerine would drop out and you wouldn't need a lot of
volume right?
>
> -- 
> --
> Martin Klingensmith
> http://infoarchive.net/
> http://nnytech.net/
>
>
>
> Appal Energy wrote:
>
> >Pieter,
> >
> >I suppose you could heat it 'til it smokes and be relatively secure in
the
> >belief that you done sumptin' wrong. (Been that. Done there.)
> >
> >I couldn't tell you precisely what temperature is the cut off point to
> >prevent degradation
> >
> >The MeOH won't evaporate until the composite liquid (alcohol and
bioidesel)
> >reaches ~160*F. (Sorry. It's an "American thang.") That would mean a temp
> >rise of ~40*F after a settled reaction - presuming that you're using an
> >insulated reactor or settling tank.
> >
> >I wouldn't suggest a pot still due to the fact that the alcohol has to
rise
> >through a thick layer of biodiesel before it can escape. A thin film
> >evaporator would be more efficient, both in fuel expended and in keeping
the
> >temp of the biodiesel elevated for a shorter period of time.
> >
> >Imagine a slightly inclined, enclosed, stainless-steel, rectangular box,
> >with the bottom being a "hot plate" that a thin film of biodiesel flows
over
> >at an adjusted rate. At the top of the box is an exhaust vent that the
> >evaporated alcohol vents out of and then into a condensor.
> >
> >That bottom "hot plate" should actually be a chamber that is filled with
a
> >circulating medium - a heat exchanger - rather than a direct form of
heat.
> >The returning, hot, biodiesel can be used to heat the reactor and or the
WVO
> >in a settling tank, in order to achieve better energy efficiency.
> >
> >Sometimes you have to build a city to handle one product.
> >
> >Todd Swearingen
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
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>
>
>


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[biofuel] glycerine distillation

[Martin Klingensmith]

Todd, do you think a thin film evaporator could be used to distill the 
glycerine?
I just did some research of my own, and it looks like would have to keep  the 
glycerine below the flash point (176C) which means you'd need a vacuum of about 
15mmHg (that's a pretty strong vacuum I assume)

Would you still need a high volume pump if you did something like this:

--
|...

The distilled glycerine would drop out and you wouldn't need a lot of volume 
right?

-- 
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/



Appal Energy wrote:

>Pieter,
>
>I suppose you could heat it 'til it smokes and be relatively secure in the
>belief that you done sumptin' wrong. (Been that. Done there.)
>
>I couldn't tell you precisely what temperature is the cut off point to
>prevent degradation
>
>The MeOH won't evaporate until the composite liquid (alcohol and bioidesel)
>reaches ~160*F. (Sorry. It's an "American thang.") That would mean a temp
>rise of ~40*F after a settled reaction - presuming that you're using an
>insulated reactor or settling tank.
>
>I wouldn't suggest a pot still due to the fact that the alcohol has to rise
>through a thick layer of biodiesel before it can escape. A thin film
>evaporator would be more efficient, both in fuel expended and in keeping the
>temp of the biodiesel elevated for a shorter period of time.
>
>Imagine a slightly inclined, enclosed, stainless-steel, rectangular box,
>with the bottom being a "hot plate" that a thin film of biodiesel flows over
>at an adjusted rate. At the top of the box is an exhaust vent that the
>evaporated alcohol vents out of and then into a condensor.
>
>That bottom "hot plate" should actually be a chamber that is filled with a
>circulating medium - a heat exchanger - rather than a direct form of heat.
>The returning, hot, biodiesel can be used to heat the reactor and or the WVO
>in a settling tank, in order to achieve better energy efficiency.
>
>Sometimes you have to build a city to handle one product.
>
>Todd Swearingen
>
>
>  
>




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Re: [biofuel] Glycerine

[pan ruti]

Helow  Greg and April

 Surely it will produce biogas, but you need to be careful about salts, acids 
alchol contenet within correct limit together with  C/N  ratio.there are good 
experimental work 
work about the use of fatty oil in biodigestion , all metabolized via 
glicerol.But you also need adopt the methane microbes  slowly to the 
glycerine.This mean  after adptation  the 
biodigestor can work well.
 
sd
Pannirselvam
Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does anyone know what would happen to Glycerine, if added to a methane
digester?  Would it "gum up " the works, or would it " digest " ?

Greg H.


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[biofuel] Glycerine

[Greg and April]

Does anyone know what would happen to Glycerine, if added to a methane
digester?  Would it "gum up " the works, or would it " digest " ?

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] glycerine

[Keith Addison]

>Can anyone tell me how I can purify the glycerin by product from 
>making biodiesel ?
>
>Met vriendelijke groeten,
>Pieter Koole

Dag Pieter

It's not really a glycerin by-product, it's a "variable mixture of 
glycerine, soaps, excess methanol, and the catalyst (lye)":
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#howmuchglyc
Make your own biodiesel

So first you have to separate the mixture:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
Separating glycerine/FFAs

This will give you something like 95% pure glycerine, which is more 
saleable than the raw by-product, but still won't fetch much.

For purer than that, you need this:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html#glycpure
Glycerine purification

Hope this helps.

Best

Keith


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[biofuel] glycerine

[Pieter Koole]

Can anyone tell me how I can purify the glycerin by product from making 
biodiesel ?

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Koole



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Re: re [biofuel] glycerine

[Steve Spence]

if it's releasing acrolein, it's not raising any red flags at the emissions
tester. not that they would test for it. don't recall that anyone has tested
for acrolein emissions on a vo powered diesel. what is the method one would
use, and what is an acceptable amount?


Steve Spence
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "crabb, david" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]: 1.0>
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 11:39 AM
Subject: re [biofuel] glycerine


> If you burn straight VO , are you releasing acrolein?
>
> Is it better to deal with the nastiness of this vs the nastiness of using
> Methanol to convert
> to Biodiesel.?
>
> what about if there is a cat converter?
>
>
> thanks
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>


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RE: [biofuel] glycerine

[Crabb, David]

If you burn straight VO , are you releasing acrolein?

Is it better to deal with the nastiness of this vs the nastiness of using
Methanol to convert 
to Biodiesel.?

what about if there is a cat converter?


thanks


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[biofuel] glycerine

[William Clark]

Question: Does anyone know the wt./gal for crude glycerine?

Thanks,
Bill C.


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Fwd: Glycerin Fermentation Retraction was Re: [biofuel] glycerine use

[doosjp]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well...It looks like the claim was a bit unwarrantedthe one
that bread yeast can ferment glycerin to H20 and CO2.

It would appear that while the supposed glycerin fermentation
(primed with sugar) lasted three times longer than just a
straight fermentation of the same amount of sugar in water, it
was largely less vigorous over a longer period, apparently due to
the presence of glycerin.

And while the boil down yielded considerably less volume of
"glycerin" than what was started with, failure was made to take
into account the original water fraction from the acid used to
neutralize the KOH and recover the FFAs.

As for more "authoritative" sources on glycerin fermentation

"Glycerin is capable of undergoing fermentation under certain
conditions. A. Fitz (1877) obtained, by the action of a certain
class of fungi, called Schizomycetes, from glycerin diluted with
twenty times its bulk of water, large quantities of normal
butylalcohol. and normal butyric acid; also ethyl alcohol,
capronic acid, hydrogen, and carbonic acid. Freund has also shown
that trimethyleneglycol (C3H8O2) is one of the principal products
formed. This substance has more recently been demonstrated by A.
A. Noyes and W. H. Watkins (Amer. Jour. Pharm., 1895, p. 639), to
occur as a troublesome by-product in the manufacture of glycerin
from fats that have undergone spontaneous saponification and
subsequent fermentation."

"The chemist Josef REDTENBACHER (1810-1870) was born in Kirchdorf
an der Krems. He discovered acrolein, acrylic acid and the
fermentation of glycerin by yeast, and also investigated taurine
(which today is used as a main constituent of many popular
'energy drinks')."

"Glycerin fermentation, the fermentation which occurs on mixing a
dilute solution of glycerin with a peculiar species of
schizomycetes and some carbonate of lime, and other matter
favorable to the growth of the plant, the glycerin being changed
into butyric acid, caproic acid, butyl, and ethyl alcohol. With
another form of bacterium (Bacillus subtilis) ethyl alcohol and
butyric acid are mainly formed."

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine use


Here's a little food for thought for all those micro-biologists
in the biodiesel world.

The glycerin fraction ("true glycerin") recovered from the
glycerin layer of a transesterification process which has been
submitted to catalyst neutralization and FFA recover, can indeed
be fermented with yeasts as simple as those used in breadmaking.

The end products in an aerobic environment will be H20 and C02.

Neutralize the acidic glycerin with baking soda, dilute at a
ratio of 20:1 water/glycerin, add yeast, let set 24 hours then
prime with table sugar.

Bye Bye glycerin.

Neutralized catalyst can be used as fertilizer if the catalyst
was KOH.

Recovered FFAs can be esterified into biodiesel, used as raw fuel
or converted back into soap.

Todd Swearingen
- Original Message -
From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine use


Paddy at Goat writes:

>As with a lot of info on the net, there seems to be a lot of
contradictions.
>Glycerin has been said to be a valuable biproduct, but retails
at £750.00
>per tonne (GBP) ex Albion chemicals, UK, which is not that
fantastic for
>the producer. Other possibilities discussed have been for
fertiliser (not a
>good option for myself) or as a furnace fuel for heating oil for
drying or
>getting to reaction temperature. Nobody seems to have come
forward with
>a good design for the furnace, which would involve preheating
the fuel to
>about 500 degrees C to get a clean burn, but I peronnally think
this is the
>best option and intend to persue this avenue. My stock pile of
glycerine
>are beginning to become a problem and i don't want to dump it as
waste.


The one I find ironic is "use your glycerine to make soap", as if
glycerine is
a component, rather than a byproduct, of soap manufacture. It's
true that
traditional soapmakers leave the glycerine in there, but that's
largely because
it's so hard to remove it. It's also true that the glycerine
phase
left over after
making biodiesel will wash things, but that's because of the SOAP
in there,
not because of the glycerine. A LITTLE glycerine in your soap
makes it softer
and a better emollient, but I get much better results with half
tallow and
half extracted FFA's. That makes for less glycerine and better
soap, but
doesn't help with glycerine disposal :-)

I regard the glycerine as a total nuisance, but since it's just a
simple sugar
and 

Re: [biofuel] glycerine use

[Appal Energy]

> What does "prime with sugar" mean?

Add a small amount of table sugar to get the yeasty beasties to
start digesting.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: studio53 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine use


> What does "prime with sugar" mean?
>
> Jesse Parris  |  studio53  |  graphics / web design  |
stamford, ct  |
> 203.324.4371
> www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/
> - Original Message -
> From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine use
>
>
> > Here's a little food for thought for all those
micro-biologists
> > in the biodiesel world.
> >
> > The glycerin fraction ("true glycerin") recovered from the
> > glycerin layer of a transesterification process which has
been
> > submitted to catalyst neutralization and FFA recover, can
indeed
> > be fermented with yeasts as simple as those used in
breadmaking.
> >
> > The end products in an aerobic environment will be H20 and
C02.
> >
> > Neutralize the acidic glycerin with baking soda, dilute at a
> > ratio of 20:1 water/glycerin, add yeast, let set 24 hours
then
> > prime with table sugar.
> >
> > Bye Bye glycerin.
> >
> > Neutralized catalyst can be used as fertilizer if the
catalyst
> > was KOH.
> >
> > Recovered FFAs can be esterified into biodiesel, used as raw
fuel
> > or converted back into soap.
> >
> > Todd Swearingen
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine use
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list
address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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Service.
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerine use

[Appal Energy]

Does such a suggestion mean that you're not seeking any type of
residency at your local intentional community?

:-\

Bread not Bombs.

Todd

- Original Message -
From: Ken <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine use


> Anyone know of any government agency that might want to buy all
that
> glycerine. ->  make into bombs and stuff.
>
> add nitric acid to glycerine and shake like crazy. =D   Don't
do if with
> your hand ofcourse.  Make something like what the bomb squad
use to get rid
> of bombs.
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
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address.
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>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerine use

[Ken]

Anyone know of any government agency that might want to buy all that
glycerine. ->  make into bombs and stuff.

add nitric acid to glycerine and shake like crazy. =D   Don't do if with
your hand ofcourse.  Make something like what the bomb squad use to get rid
of bombs.


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Re: [biofuel] glycerine use

[studio53]

What does "prime with sugar" mean?

Jesse Parris  |  studio53  |  graphics / web design  |  stamford, ct  |
203.324.4371
www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/
- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine use


> Here's a little food for thought for all those micro-biologists
> in the biodiesel world.
>
> The glycerin fraction ("true glycerin") recovered from the
> glycerin layer of a transesterification process which has been
> submitted to catalyst neutralization and FFA recover, can indeed
> be fermented with yeasts as simple as those used in breadmaking.
>
> The end products in an aerobic environment will be H20 and C02.
>
> Neutralize the acidic glycerin with baking soda, dilute at a
> ratio of 20:1 water/glycerin, add yeast, let set 24 hours then
> prime with table sugar.
>
> Bye Bye glycerin.
>
> Neutralized catalyst can be used as fertilizer if the catalyst
> was KOH.
>
> Recovered FFAs can be esterified into biodiesel, used as raw fuel
> or converted back into soap.
>
> Todd Swearingen
> - Original Message -----
> From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine use


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Re: [biofuel] glycerine use

[Appal Energy]

Here's a little food for thought for all those micro-biologists
in the biodiesel world.

The glycerin fraction ("true glycerin") recovered from the
glycerin layer of a transesterification process which has been
submitted to catalyst neutralization and FFA recover, can indeed
be fermented with yeasts as simple as those used in breadmaking.

The end products in an aerobic environment will be H20 and C02.

Neutralize the acidic glycerin with baking soda, dilute at a
ratio of 20:1 water/glycerin, add yeast, let set 24 hours then
prime with table sugar.

Bye Bye glycerin.

Neutralized catalyst can be used as fertilizer if the catalyst
was KOH.

Recovered FFAs can be esterified into biodiesel, used as raw fuel
or converted back into soap.

Todd Swearingen
- Original Message -
From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine use


Paddy at Goat writes:

>As with a lot of info on the net, there seems to be a lot of
contradictions.
>Glycerin has been said to be a valuable biproduct, but retails
at £750.00
>per tonne (GBP) ex Albion chemicals, UK, which is not that
fantastic for
>the producer. Other possibilities discussed have been for
fertiliser (not a
>good option for myself) or as a furnace fuel for heating oil for
drying or
>getting to reaction temperature. Nobody seems to have come
forward with
>a good design for the furnace, which would involve preheating
the fuel to
>about 500 degrees C to get a clean burn, but I peronnally think
this is the
>best option and intend to persue this avenue. My stock pile of
glycerine
>are beginning to become a problem and i don't want to dump it as
waste.


The one I find ironic is "use your glycerine to make soap", as if
glycerine is
a component, rather than a byproduct, of soap manufacture. It's
true that
traditional soapmakers leave the glycerine in there, but that's
largely because
it's so hard to remove it. It's also true that the glycerine
phase
left over after
making biodiesel will wash things, but that's because of the SOAP
in there,
not because of the glycerine. A LITTLE glycerine in your soap
makes it softer
and a better emollient, but I get much better results with half
tallow and
half extracted FFA's. That makes for less glycerine and better
soap, but
doesn't help with glycerine disposal :-)

I regard the glycerine as a total nuisance, but since it's just a
simple sugar
and quickly biodegrades, I don't hesitate to compost it or flush
it, once the
soap and alkali have been neutralized.

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list
address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Service.




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Re: [biofuel] glycerine biodegradilibility

[Ken Provost]

Christopher Price asks:

>What does glycerine biodegrade into?

Don't know the intermediates, but the
endproducts would be CO2 and H20:

2 C3H8O3 + 7 O2 --->  6 CO2 + 8 H2O

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Re: [biofuel] glycerine use

[Christopher Price]

What does glycerine biodegrade into?


>From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerine use
>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:53:48 -0700
>
>Paddy at Goat writes:
>
> >As with a lot of info on the net, there seems to be a lot of 
>contradictions.
> >Glycerin has been said to be a valuable biproduct, but retails at £750.00
> >per tonne (GBP) ex Albion chemicals, UK, which is not that fantastic for
> >the producer. Other possibilities discussed have been for fertiliser (not 
>a
> >good option for myself) or as a furnace fuel for heating oil for drying 
>or
> >getting to reaction temperature. Nobody seems to have come forward with
> >a good design for the furnace, which would involve preheating the fuel to
> >about 500 degrees C to get a clean burn, but I peronnally think this is 
>the
> >best option and intend to persue this avenue. My stock pile of glycerine
> >are beginning to become a problem and i don't want to dump it as waste.
>
>
>The one I find ironic is "use your glycerine to make soap", as if glycerine 
>is
>a component, rather than a byproduct, of soap manufacture. It's true that
>traditional soapmakers leave the glycerine in there, but that's largely 
>because
>it's so hard to remove it. It's also true that the glycerine phase
>left over after
>making biodiesel will wash things, but that's because of the SOAP in there,
>not because of the glycerine. A LITTLE glycerine in your soap makes it 
>softer
>and a better emollient, but I get much better results with half tallow and
>half extracted FFA's. That makes for less glycerine and better soap, but
>doesn't help with glycerine disposal :-)
>
>I regard the glycerine as a total nuisance, but since it's just a simple 
>sugar
>and quickly biodegrades, I don't hesitate to compost it or flush it, once 
>the
>soap and alkali have been neutralized.




_
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Re: [biofuel] glycerine use

[Ken Provost]

Paddy at Goat writes:

>As with a lot of info on the net, there seems to be a lot of contradictions.
>Glycerin has been said to be a valuable biproduct, but retails at £750.00
>per tonne (GBP) ex Albion chemicals, UK, which is not that fantastic for
>the producer. Other possibilities discussed have been for fertiliser (not a
>good option for myself) or as a furnace fuel for heating oil for drying or
>getting to reaction temperature. Nobody seems to have come forward with
>a good design for the furnace, which would involve preheating the fuel to
>about 500 degrees C to get a clean burn, but I peronnally think this is the
>best option and intend to persue this avenue. My stock pile of glycerine
>are beginning to become a problem and i don't want to dump it as waste.


The one I find ironic is "use your glycerine to make soap", as if glycerine is
a component, rather than a byproduct, of soap manufacture. It's true that
traditional soapmakers leave the glycerine in there, but that's largely because
it's so hard to remove it. It's also true that the glycerine phase 
left over after
making biodiesel will wash things, but that's because of the SOAP in there,
not because of the glycerine. A LITTLE glycerine in your soap makes it softer
and a better emollient, but I get much better results with half tallow and
half extracted FFA's. That makes for less glycerine and better soap, but
doesn't help with glycerine disposal :-)

I regard the glycerine as a total nuisance, but since it's just a simple sugar
and quickly biodegrades, I don't hesitate to compost it or flush it, once the
soap and alkali have been neutralized.

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RE: [biofuel] Glycerine pretreat

[Anton Berteaux]

what i would like to know is how to figure out how much methoxide to treat
the glyc pretreated oil...
anton

-Original Message-
From: Paul Gobert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:10 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Glycerine pretreat



- Original Message -
From: "t_watchornnz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 6:03 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Glycerine pretreat


t, haven't progressed very far with my investigation of this.

> I did try mixing 1 litre of glycerine with 1 litre of used Canola oil
> at about 50 degC, mixing by hand now & then over an hour. After 24
> hours had about 250 mil Esters, 900 mil oil, 850 mil glycerine. Was
> surprised to see lest glycerine than oil. The oil layer had yellowy
> aerated look, and has stayed that way after 6 days (it was clean
> clear looking to start with)
> I presume it is just the oily middle layer that you then go on to
> process with the usual methods.

Thats interesting, I've always ended up with two distinct layers, partially
transesterified WVO and glycerine.
Mixing was by shaking vigorously in a 2L Plastic bottle.
Yet to determine which is better way to go.Single treatment or repetive
treatment.
Single treatment sees the glycerine discarded after one retreat. The
partially transesterified WVO is then processed with a lower volume of
methoxide than normal.
Repetitive treatment retains the glycerine and treats it a number of times
with  WVO and lower than normal levels of methoxide until the volume of
glycerine becomes too great. BD from the repetitive treatment should require
no further processing.

Regards,
Paul Gobert.




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Re: [biofuel] Glycerine pretreat

[Paul Gobert]

- Original Message -
From: "t_watchornnz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 6:03 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Glycerine pretreat


t, haven't progressed very far with my investigation of this.

> I did try mixing 1 litre of glycerine with 1 litre of used Canola oil
> at about 50 degC, mixing by hand now & then over an hour. After 24
> hours had about 250 mil Esters, 900 mil oil, 850 mil glycerine. Was
> surprised to see lest glycerine than oil. The oil layer had yellowy
> aerated look, and has stayed that way after 6 days (it was clean
> clear looking to start with)
> I presume it is just the oily middle layer that you then go on to
> process with the usual methods.

Thats interesting, I've always ended up with two distinct layers, partially
transesterified WVO and glycerine.
Mixing was by shaking vigorously in a 2L Plastic bottle.
Yet to determine which is better way to go.Single treatment or repetive
treatment.
Single treatment sees the glycerine discarded after one retreat. The
partially transesterified WVO is then processed with a lower volume of
methoxide than normal.
Repetitive treatment retains the glycerine and treats it a number of times
with  WVO and lower than normal levels of methoxide until the volume of
glycerine becomes too great. BD from the repetitive treatment should require
no further processing.

Regards,
Paul Gobert.



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[biofuel] Glycerine pretreat

[t_watchornnz]

Back in December there was some talk on this subject by Paul Gobert 
and others. The subject being to use glycerine which still has some 
methanol and NAOH content to pre-treat oil used for bio-diesel.

Has anyone done further experiments? I would like to give it a go.

I did try mixing 1 litre of glycerine with 1 litre of used Canola oil 
at about 50 degC, mixing by hand now & then over an hour. After 24 
hours had about 250 mil Esters, 900 mil oil, 850 mil glycerine. Was 
surprised to see lest glycerine than oil. The oil layer had yellowy 
aerated look, and has stayed that way after 6 days (it was clean 
clear looking to start with)
I presume it is just the oily middle layer that you then go on to 
process with the usual methods.

I would welcome any pointers and guidance on the subject. I have 
about 150 litres in plastic pails I want to process.



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[biofuel] Glycerine & dried flowers

[t_watchornnz]

Hi
Is any body out there using thier Bio-D glycerine in the process used 
for pre-treating leaves and flowers when drying?

If so, what ratio are you mixing it with water? 
 
Are you treating it in any other way? 

regards Trev 


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Re: [biofuel] Glycerine pretreat

[craig reece]

Paul,

My pleasure.

Craig

You wrote:

> Thanks Craig, bit of a slip up on my part, out of practise I guess, haven't
> posted anything for a while.
>
> Also forgot to include that the BD made from the WCSO I used for pretreat
> test usually has an SG of around 0.8850.  This will give an indication of
> the amount of methanol recovery in the pretreatment.
>
> Paul Gobert.
>
> www.ozimages.com.au/profile.asp?MemberID=517
>


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Re: [biofuel] Glycerine pretreat

[Paul Gobert]

- Original Message -
From: "craig reece" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:10 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Glycerine pretreat (was Why people like SUVs


> Paul,
>
> Just a suggestion - change the subject line. What you posted - the
(valuable)
> results of your glycerin experiments - had nothing to do with Why People
Like
> SUVs.

Thanks Craig, bit of a slip up on my part, out of practise I guess, haven't
posted anything for a while.

Also forgot to include that the BD made from the WCSO I used for pretreat
test usually has an SG of around 0.8850.  This will give an indication of
the amount of methanol recovery in the pretreatment.

Paul Gobert.

www.ozimages.com.au/profile.asp?MemberID=517


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RE: [biofuel] Glycerine pretreat (was Why people like SUVs

[Anton Berteaux]

yews, thanks craig.
On to the actual sbject: ibought a nice SS vacuum vessel, and want to do all
sorts of neat things with it, includung pressure and gheat for the BD
process, and also for the glycerin pretreat...
I'll keep you posted, but iam way too busy so don't hold your breath (s)
anton

-Original Message-
From: craig reece [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:10 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] Glycerine pretreat (was Why people like SUVs


Paul,

Just a suggestion - change the subject line. What you posted - the
(valuable)
results of your glycerin experiments - had nothing to do with Why People
Like
SUVs.

For those of us that are on multiple Yahoo groups, deciding which threads to
read and which to discard without reading is made more difficult by the fact
that a new thread will start (as this one has) within a thread with a
totally
different subject matter. Netscape allows me to eliminate the entire thread
with two keystrokes - but if I have to look at every post in even those
threads
that I have no interest in it's unnecessary time on my part.

And - I've done it too.

Thanks,
Craig

Paul Gobert wrote:

> - Original Message -
> >Recyling methanol from glycerine.
> >What does anyone have to say about pretreating the biodiesel with the
> >leftover weaste glycerin with the methanol still init? mix the glyc,
whicvh
> >has meth and NAOH, then do a reaction with a corresponding lesser amount
of
> >reactants...
> >anton berteaux.
>
> >>Keep going, you're doing very well. I can tell you it works well if
> >>you get it right, but I'm not free to tell you any more than that. Be
> >>encouraged!
> >>Best
> >>Keith Addison
>
> Anton I like the idea. Results of a couple of trials.
>
> Waste glycerine from a batch of well used solidified vegetable oil
> (Citation).
> 12.5ml conc aqueous NaOH and 225ml methanol per litre used for conversion.
> Filtered waste cotton seed oil (FWCSO) SG 0.9136.
>
> 1/. 400ml glycerine + 100ml  FWCSO
>reacted at 55 deg C, mixed intermittently over one hour as temp held.
> Settled overnight, upper layer 145ml, SG 0.8957
> Retreat bottom layer with another 100ml glycerine
> again increased volume  SG 0.9072
>
> 2/. 600ml glycerine + 600ml FWCSO
> treatment as above.
> upper layer 760ml  SG 0.9058
> However pH of remaining glycerol just above 7 indicating that FFA in FWCSO
> had neutralised NaOH and probably would have limited the extent of the
> reaction.
>
> Further tests required but I will certainly be using this method to
recover
> the excess methanol.
> By using more than the titrated ammount of NaOH an excess will remain in
the
> glycerol to neutralise the FFA in the FWCSO. Or thr FWCSO could be
> neutralised with slaked lime.  High levels of NaOH favour conversion of
high
> FFA oils and tallow. Have found that for a given methanol level the more
> NaOH used the lower the SG and Viscosity of the BD. However yield volume
> drops off. Treating the glycerine with WVO could reclaim this loss.
>
> Keith, why the secrecy?.
>
> Regards Paul Gobert.
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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[biofuel] Glycerine pretreat (was Why people like SUVs

[craig reece]

Paul,

Just a suggestion - change the subject line. What you posted - the (valuable)
results of your glycerin experiments - had nothing to do with Why People Like
SUVs.

For those of us that are on multiple Yahoo groups, deciding which threads to
read and which to discard without reading is made more difficult by the fact
that a new thread will start (as this one has) within a thread with a totally
different subject matter. Netscape allows me to eliminate the entire thread
with two keystrokes - but if I have to look at every post in even those threads
that I have no interest in it's unnecessary time on my part.

And - I've done it too.

Thanks,
Craig

Paul Gobert wrote:

> - Original Message -
> >Recyling methanol from glycerine.
> >What does anyone have to say about pretreating the biodiesel with the
> >leftover weaste glycerin with the methanol still init? mix the glyc, whicvh
> >has meth and NAOH, then do a reaction with a corresponding lesser amount of
> >reactants...
> >anton berteaux.
>
> >>Keep going, you're doing very well. I can tell you it works well if
> >>you get it right, but I'm not free to tell you any more than that. Be
> >>encouraged!
> >>Best
> >>Keith Addison
>
> Anton I like the idea. Results of a couple of trials.
>
> Waste glycerine from a batch of well used solidified vegetable oil
> (Citation).
> 12.5ml conc aqueous NaOH and 225ml methanol per litre used for conversion.
> Filtered waste cotton seed oil (FWCSO) SG 0.9136.
>
> 1/. 400ml glycerine + 100ml  FWCSO
>reacted at 55 deg C, mixed intermittently over one hour as temp held.
> Settled overnight, upper layer 145ml, SG 0.8957
> Retreat bottom layer with another 100ml glycerine
> again increased volume  SG 0.9072
>
> 2/. 600ml glycerine + 600ml FWCSO
> treatment as above.
> upper layer 760ml  SG 0.9058
> However pH of remaining glycerol just above 7 indicating that FFA in FWCSO
> had neutralised NaOH and probably would have limited the extent of the
> reaction.
>
> Further tests required but I will certainly be using this method to recover
> the excess methanol.
> By using more than the titrated ammount of NaOH an excess will remain in the
> glycerol to neutralise the FFA in the FWCSO. Or thr FWCSO could be
> neutralised with slaked lime.  High levels of NaOH favour conversion of high
> FFA oils and tallow. Have found that for a given methanol level the more
> NaOH used the lower the SG and Viscosity of the BD. However yield volume
> drops off. Treating the glycerine with WVO could reclaim this loss.
>
> Keith, why the secrecy?.
>
> Regards Paul Gobert.
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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[biofuel] Glycerine distillation

[milliontc]

G'day Group
I'm looking into the possibility of applying concentrated solar energy 
for  Glycerine distillation and it would be useful to know figures 
on energy requirement. I don't know exactly what the parameters are 
but I imagine something like the amount of energy required to raise 
1 litre of glycerine through 1 degree C up to boiling point 
(Specific heat)and then another figure for vaporization.(Latent heat)
Anyone got any ideas?

James
PS.
I'm also still trying to find out how much Methanol can be recovered.

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Re: [biofuel] glycerine as a fuel.....

[Paul Gobert]

- Original Message -
From: "Jan Sur—wka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Information for Paul,
>
> Maybe instead of bothering with glycerine as fuel one could use it as
a...fertilizer .
> I have heard that glycerine after diluting with water can be used a soil
nutrient
> jan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.ems-energy.pl

Thanks Jan but to do that I would prefer to use KOH so as not to "salt" up
the garden.
This would also increase the cost of raw materials for the BD. Have made a
few batches using KOH and either ethanol or methanol.
At the moment indications are that I can treat the glycerine and markety it
to local speciality soap makers.
Thus reducing costs.
Thanks,   Paul


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