Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Ken Gotberg wrote: > Hi > > >From all the replies given by people who seem to know, > H2 is less efficient than a standard internal > combustion engine and why bother? There is no net sum > gain and even a net sum loss. > > Ken > I think you misunderstand something here. Burning hydrogen in an appropriately converted engine can be MORE efficient than burning gasoline because hydrogen tolerates a very wide flammability range and can successfully run on a very lean mixture. The problems with hydrogen are: How do you produce it in an energetically efficient manner, and how can you store it conveniently and safely? You conclusion, however, is basically correct. For that reason, I've never met anyone who burns hydrogen in their "daily driver". robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Ok Ken, U got ma interest..please send me more details of the solar concentrator. DId U know there is a newsgroup just for solar concentrators? Mike JAMAICA - Original Message - From: "Ken Gotberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 2:47 AM Subject: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2 BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:31:01 +0200, you wrote: > >MM, > >Known Resources/Production or Consumption per year is >R/P value. It gives you the number of years the local resources >would last with current consumption of energy. >It turns out to be the consumption when you look at local level >like a country, since the consumption is filled by imports. The >way it is used it should really be R/C instead, but it is an old >measurement from the days when export/import did not play >that much. US have a R/P of 10 years for oil and that means >that its local resources would last for 10 years with its local >consumption, for NG it is 7 years. Because the limited capacity >of transport and distribution for import, US now have a NG crises. It isn't clear to me if it's consumption or production. Which is it? There are huge differences in these numbers in the US. For example, our consumption of Oil is roughly 20 million barrels per day (7.3 Billion barrels per year). Our production is roughly 10 million barrels per day (3.65 billion barrels per year, more or less). So, which number are you using in stating this R/P for Oil in the U.S.? That will give me a better idea of what you're saying. > >New discoveries does change the number, but the estimates >of unknown resources varies between 1 to 3 times the known, >between the realistic and most overly optimistic estimates. This >would give US maximum 20 to 40 year for oil and 14 to 28 years >for NG, before their reserves are definitely gone. It is however >not a definite stop, since the production would go down gradually. >It would however cause many severe crises. > >Hakan > > >At 01:50 PM 9/22/2003, you wrote: > >> >R/P value for US Natural gas is around 7 years and for >> >the world 60 years. >> >>Hakan: >> >>Could you please provide a definition for "R/P value"? I think you >>did this once, but I can't find it, nor any mention of this term on >>google.com > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi Ken, Ken wrote : >I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be >electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in >places like Canada. >BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator >design if anyone is interested. It can power external >heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic >Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first >world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like >Indonesia. I am very much interested in your solar concentrator design. At this time I try to build a Stirling engine, but also our little company uses lots of hot water, so any good design is more than welcome. Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: "Ken Gotberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 11:47 AM Subject: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2 > Hi All > > I agree about H2 fuel cell efficiency, but extra > electric power generation will be needed just the > same. Using a 20-horesepower average figure means hp > delivered by the engine and this is usually advertised > as ~25%. Better to convert back to Watts (1 hp = 746 > Watts ~ 750 W). 20-hp (15kW) delivered means the > engine is using 60kW of fuel (60kJoules per sec). > > All heat engines are limited by the Carnot cycle > efficiency =1 -LowT/HighT where T is given in Kelvin = > Celsius + 273. If you do the math for let's say a > steam turbine with a LowT = 100C = 373K and a HighT of > 800C = 1073K the maximum possible efficiency is 65%. > There's no way around this with a heat engine! Using > higher T differences and cogeneration, I read > somewhere that modern power plants can get up to 70% > efficiency? > > Batteries and fuel cells are NOT heat engines and > efficiencies can get up to 100% in a perfect world. > The world's not perfect and I guess maybe 90% > efficiency for a H2 charge/discharge. A round trip is > 90% x 90% ~80%. Assuming 70% efficiency for a modern > power plant, this means an overall efficiency of > 80%x70% = 56%. This is more than twice as good as a > fuel car engine, so yes it's a better way to go. It's > the extra infrastructure that will cost a lot of money > and is there the political will to spend a whole lot > of money on this? California would not be a good > place to depend on a H2 fuel cell car! > > It's true that most homes in the US have natural gas > and could be exploited for H2. I'm not sure how you > turn CH4 into 2H2 + C. A natural gas heat engine > generator will work to electrolyze water, but it seems > like you're going around in circles this way. Why not > just convert your gasoline car to natural gas and > avoid all the hassle? Pump the home natural gas into > the car's "gas" tank. > > I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be > electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in > places like Canada. > > BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator > design if anyone is interested. It can power external > heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic > Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first > world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like > Indonesia. > > Ken > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
MM, Known Resources/Production or Consumption per year is R/P value. It gives you the number of years the local resources would last with current consumption of energy. It turns out to be the consumption when you look at local level like a country, since the consumption is filled by imports. The way it is used it should really be R/C instead, but it is an old measurement from the days when export/import did not play that much. US have a R/P of 10 years for oil and that means that its local resources would last for 10 years with its local consumption, for NG it is 7 years. Because the limited capacity of transport and distribution for import, US now have a NG crises. New discoveries does change the number, but the estimates of unknown resources varies between 1 to 3 times the known, between the realistic and most overly optimistic estimates. This would give US maximum 20 to 40 year for oil and 14 to 28 years for NG, before their reserves are definitely gone. It is however not a definite stop, since the production would go down gradually. It would however cause many severe crises. Hakan At 01:50 PM 9/22/2003, you wrote: > >R/P value for US Natural gas is around 7 years and for > >the world 60 years. > >Hakan: > >Could you please provide a definition for "R/P value"? I think you >did this once, but I can't find it, nor any mention of this term on >google.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
>R/P value for US Natural gas is around 7 years and for >the world 60 years. Hakan: Could you please provide a definition for "R/P value"? I think you did this once, but I can't find it, nor any mention of this term on google.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay & Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi Hakan Yes, it appears the 70% figure is wrong and I misinterpreted from http://www.pacensys.com/SitingPowerPlants.pdf my apologies. It looks like overall H2 efficiency is less than I figured. Textbooks say that fuel cells are much better than 30-to-50%. Does anyone know for sure what actual efficiencies are in a H2 vehicle? Electrolysis and discharge have over potentials etc, but 50-to-70% losses seem very high to me. Ken --- Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ken, > > I have some minor problems to consolidate the > efficiency > assumptions. > > My information is that power stations have 30 to 50 > and > slightly above and from small to large. I also > understand > that this is the same as for fuel cells 30 to 50 and > from > small to large. > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Ken, I have some minor problems to consolidate the efficiency assumptions. My information is that power stations have 30 to 50 and slightly above and from small to large. I also understand that this is the same as for fuel cells 30 to 50 and from small to large. Chargeable batteries have an efficiency in the range of 80%, according to my understanding. On heat engines we have the same understanding. I also understand that Hydrogen molecules are so small that it is much larger containment problems than Natural Gas. It is no compatibility between equipment for Natural gas and Hydrogen. I saw that the fuel tank for one of the hydrogen car prototypes had a cost of $20,000. R/P value for US Natural gas is around 7 years and for the world 60 years. To use NG is even a less sustainable situation than oil. Producer gas from coal would probably be an alternative, but it is very dirty and it is therefore the politicians do not want to talk about it. It is however the realistic and logic outcome of the Bush hydrogen alternative. It could extend the use current energy consumption at low cost with 50 to 100 years. It would also make US less dependent on oil imports. My suspicion is that the much advertised US hydrogen economy will turn out to be a Producer gas (Gengas) economy, based on the larges domestic coal reserves in the world. US will never join the Kyoto agreement. The technical discussions that we now have are more than half a century old or 70 years. Hakan At 11:47 AM 9/22/2003, you wrote: >Hi All > >I agree about H2 fuel cell efficiency, but extra >electric power generation will be needed just the >same. Using a 20-horesepower average figure means hp >delivered by the engine and this is usually advertised >as ~25%. Better to convert back to Watts (1 hp = 746 >Watts ~ 750 W). 20-hp (15kW) delivered means the >engine is using 60kW of fuel (60kJoules per sec). > >All heat engines are limited by the Carnot cycle >efficiency =1 ÐLowT/HighT where T is given in Kelvin = >Celsius + 273. If you do the math for letâs say a >steam turbine with a LowT = 100C = 373K and a HighT of >800C = 1073K the maximum possible efficiency is 65%. >Thereâs no way around this with a heat engine! Using >higher T differences and cogeneration, I read >somewhere that modern power plants can get up to 70% >efficiency? > >Batteries and fuel cells are NOT heat engines and >efficiencies can get up to 100% in a perfect world. >The worldâs not perfect and I guess maybe 90% >efficiency for a H2 charge/discharge. A round trip is >90% x 90% ~80%. Assuming 70% efficiency for a modern >power plant, this means an overall efficiency of >80%x70% = 56%. This is more than twice as good as a >fuel car engine, so yes itâs a better way to go. Itâs >the extra infrastructure that will cost a lot of money >and is there the political will to spend a whole lot >of money on this? California would not be a good >place to depend on a H2 fuel cell car! > >Itâs true that most homes in the US have natural gas >and could be exploited for H2. Iâm not sure how you >turn CH4 into 2H2 + C. A natural gas heat engine >generator will work to electrolyze water, but it seems >like youâre going around in circles this way. Why not >just convert your gasoline car to natural gas and >avoid all the hassle? Pump the home natural gas into >the carâs ãgasä tank. > >I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be >electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in >places like Canada. > >BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator >design if anyone is interested. It can power external >heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic >Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first >world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like >Indonesia. > >Ken Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi All I agree about H2 fuel cell efficiency, but extra electric power generation will be needed just the same. Using a 20-horesepower average figure means hp delivered by the engine and this is usually advertised as ~25%. Better to convert back to Watts (1 hp = 746 Watts ~ 750 W). 20-hp (15kW) delivered means the engine is using 60kW of fuel (60kJoules per sec). All heat engines are limited by the Carnot cycle efficiency =1 LowT/HighT where T is given in Kelvin = Celsius + 273. If you do the math for lets say a steam turbine with a LowT = 100C = 373K and a HighT of 800C = 1073K the maximum possible efficiency is 65%. Theres no way around this with a heat engine! Using higher T differences and cogeneration, I read somewhere that modern power plants can get up to 70% efficiency? Batteries and fuel cells are NOT heat engines and efficiencies can get up to 100% in a perfect world. The worlds not perfect and I guess maybe 90% efficiency for a H2 charge/discharge. A round trip is 90% x 90% ~80%. Assuming 70% efficiency for a modern power plant, this means an overall efficiency of 80%x70% = 56%. This is more than twice as good as a fuel car engine, so yes its a better way to go. Its the extra infrastructure that will cost a lot of money and is there the political will to spend a whole lot of money on this? California would not be a good place to depend on a H2 fuel cell car! Its true that most homes in the US have natural gas and could be exploited for H2. Im not sure how you turn CH4 into 2H2 + C. A natural gas heat engine generator will work to electrolyze water, but it seems like youre going around in circles this way. Why not just convert your gasoline car to natural gas and avoid all the hassle? Pump the home natural gas into the cars gas tank. I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in places like Canada. BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. Ken __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay & Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
