Re: [biofuel] "Poor" midwest farmers
Hi Dana >Keith, >You are right. >I was so incensed by the broad brush of Tims post that >I fired off a reply before getting to the apology that >he later posted. > >One aplology should suffice. No need - no apology would also have sufficed, so double thanks! >But I suppose I may owe one too for not being more >patient and thorough. I'm sorry. > >I do think that most farmers would agree that the >corporation/middlemen are far too greedy for anyones >good. The standard example is that the company that >makes the box makes more profit than the farmer that >planted, raised and harvested the grain that goes into >a box of cereal. > >It seems that many non ag types attribute the farmers >massive use of pesticide/herbicide/ fertilizer to >greed when in fact it is more acurrate to attribute it >to desparation. And of course there are corporate >farmers or rather corporations that own farms. this >harkens back to the old landowner/serf relationship >except the landowner had more of a respect for the >land than any corporation does. >Dana Yea verily. Tim had a point though - I'm sure those he described do exist, as he described them. And all the others that aren't like that at all (as Stephen points out) probably feel much the same way about them as Tim does. The landowner/serf comparison seems an apt one. Rome was built on the solid foundation of free yeoman farmers, and fell with the peasants replaced by big estates worked by slaves (sure, not the only reason). Often compared with the US of today (substitute machines for slaves). It's not at all because they "can't compete" that so many US farmers have been shoved off the land in the last 30 years or so (how many? - six million?). It's the big money and how it's used that they couldn't compete with. Everyone is the poorer for it. And I'm sure you're right about greed and desperation - I think many farmers would love to go the conservation route but they're locked into a system they can't get out of,that, again, benefits nobody. (I don't regard corporate benefits as necessarily benefitting anybody.) By the way, I still reckon this is all about biofuels. When it comes to energy efficiency, yield, productivity and just about everything else, biofuel crops produced on land-aware farms and on the modern version of slave estates or whatever - industrial farms - are two different animals. All best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ >--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dana > > > > Tim wasn't proud, he apologised to the list and said > > he was wrong. > > The farmer you're defending showed all the hallmarks > > of an uninformed > > bigot, and very little in the way of manners. What > > he didn't agree > > with (though it seemed he had nothing to back up his > > view) he termed > > "babble", if you recall. Which it wasn't - even if > > it was wrong > > (which it wasn't), an opposing view is not "babble". > > It seems to me > > that "the true condition of the . farmer" (fill > > in the name of > > any valley or plain in the world) is always > > something special, unique > > and utterly misunderstood and misrepresented. And > > indeed, that > > usually turns out to be the case. :-) (I think you > > could also > > substitute more or less whatever you like for > > "farmer" though.) > > > > Best > > > > Keith Addison > > Journey to Forever > > Handmade Projects > > Tokyo > > http://journeytoforever.org/ > > > > > > > > >Tim, > > >I think he just had too much in the way of good > > >manners to respond to such an obviously bigoted and > > >uninformed tirade. I live in the midwest, worked on > > a > > >farm in my youth, and have met hundreds of > > >farmers...You, obviuosly have not. > > > > > >I know that there are a small number of "farmers" > > that > > >are rich enough to "go south" for the brutal > > >midwestern winter, but the vast majority are barely > > >able to scratch out a living and make the mortgage > > and > > >tax payments. To charachterize them all as you have > > >not only broadcasts your lack of familiarity with > > the > > >true condition of the midwestern farmer...it shows > > all > > >who care to read such a rabid commentary your > > >willingness to promulgate hate. You seem to be > > proud > > >that you "turned someone off" of this discussion > > >group. Shame on you. > > > > > >Dana > > > > > > >__ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] "Poor" midwest farmers
Keith, You are right. I was so incensed by the broad brush of Tims post that I fired off a reply before getting to the apology that he later posted. One aplology should suffice. But I suppose I may owe one too for not being more patient and thorough. I'm sorry. I do think that most farmers would agree that the corporation/middlemen are far too greedy for anyones good. The standard example is that the company that makes the box makes more profit than the farmer that planted, raised and harvested the grain that goes into a box of cereal. It seems that many non ag types attribute the farmers massive use of pesticide/herbicide/ fertilizer to greed when in fact it is more acurrate to attribute it to desparation. And of course there are corporate farmers or rather corporations that own farms. this harkens back to the old landowner/serf relationship except the landowner had more of a respect for the land than any corporation does. Dana --- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dana > > Tim wasn't proud, he apologised to the list and said > he was wrong. > The farmer you're defending showed all the hallmarks > of an uninformed > bigot, and very little in the way of manners. What > he didn't agree > with (though it seemed he had nothing to back up his > view) he termed > "babble", if you recall. Which it wasn't - even if > it was wrong > (which it wasn't), an opposing view is not "babble". > It seems to me > that "the true condition of the . farmer" (fill > in the name of > any valley or plain in the world) is always > something special, unique > and utterly misunderstood and misrepresented. And > indeed, that > usually turns out to be the case. :-) (I think you > could also > substitute more or less whatever you like for > "farmer" though.) > > Best > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > Handmade Projects > Tokyo > http://journeytoforever.org/ > > > > >Tim, > >I think he just had too much in the way of good > >manners to respond to such an obviously bigoted and > >uninformed tirade. I live in the midwest, worked on > a > >farm in my youth, and have met hundreds of > >farmers...You, obviuosly have not. > > > >I know that there are a small number of "farmers" > that > >are rich enough to "go south" for the brutal > >midwestern winter, but the vast majority are barely > >able to scratch out a living and make the mortgage > and > >tax payments. To charachterize them all as you have > >not only broadcasts your lack of familiarity with > the > >true condition of the midwestern farmer...it shows > all > >who care to read such a rabid commentary your > >willingness to promulgate hate. You seem to be > proud > >that you "turned someone off" of this discussion > >group. Shame on you. > > > >Dana > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] "Poor" midwest farmers
Dana Tim wasn't proud, he apologised to the list and said he was wrong. The farmer you're defending showed all the hallmarks of an uninformed bigot, and very little in the way of manners. What he didn't agree with (though it seemed he had nothing to back up his view) he termed "babble", if you recall. Which it wasn't - even if it was wrong (which it wasn't), an opposing view is not "babble". It seems to me that "the true condition of the . farmer" (fill in the name of any valley or plain in the world) is always something special, unique and utterly misunderstood and misrepresented. And indeed, that usually turns out to be the case. :-) (I think you could also substitute more or less whatever you like for "farmer" though.) Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ >Tim, >I think he just had too much in the way of good >manners to respond to such an obviously bigoted and >uninformed tirade. I live in the midwest, worked on a >farm in my youth, and have met hundreds of >farmers...You, obviuosly have not. > >I know that there are a small number of "farmers" that >are rich enough to "go south" for the brutal >midwestern winter, but the vast majority are barely >able to scratch out a living and make the mortgage and >tax payments. To charachterize them all as you have >not only broadcasts your lack of familiarity with the >true condition of the midwestern farmer...it shows all >who care to read such a rabid commentary your >willingness to promulgate hate. You seem to be proud >that you "turned someone off" of this discussion >group. Shame on you. > >Dana Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] "Poor" midwest farmers
Tim, I think he just had too much in the way of good manners to respond to such an obviously bigoted and uninformed tirade. I live in the midwest, worked on a farm in my youth, and have met hundreds of farmers...You, obviuosly have not. I know that there are a small number of "farmers" that are rich enough to "go south" for the brutal midwestern winter, but the vast majority are barely able to scratch out a living and make the mortgage and tax payments. To charachterize them all as you have not only broadcasts your lack of familiarity with the true condition of the midwestern farmer...it shows all who care to read such a rabid commentary your willingness to promulgate hate. You seem to be proud that you "turned someone off" of this discussion group. Shame on you. Dana --- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Tim > > You don't like 'em much, then? :-) > > Anyway, seems he didn't like your babble either, nor > my further > babble - he just unsubscribed! No doubt in high > dudgeon. Pity he > didn't/couldn't respond. I really wanted to know if > he grew any food > on his farm. Altogether a pity he left, of course - > maybe he was > after making ethanol from some of that corn (or bd > from the soy) to > defray his energy/fertiliser costs, might even have > learnt something > in the doing. But I guess the fact that he left so > peremptorily > indicates that he can't abide any opinion other than > his own anyway, > not the kind of mindset that learns stuff easily. > You probably hit > the mark all too accurately. > > Best > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > Handmade Projects > Tokyo > http://journeytoforever.org/ > > > > > > Well now, isnt that just pure babble. Of > course its about > > >profit, there are people in the midwest trying to > make a living. > >As far >as corp-orations go, you cant outlaw them, > they for the most > >part are >you and I, kinda like big, bad > government. > > > >Living in Arizona these past 17 years, and working > as an HVAC > >contractor, I have met many dozens of farmers from > the midwest. They > >come here in the winter to avoid the severe weather > up north. They > >spend $30 to $150k on flimsy manufactured housing > which are enclosed > >in 8 foot block walls with 24/7 guards at the > gates. They invariably > >drive big new Oldsmobiles and dress very nice. They > also spend lots > >of money eating in restaurants & partaking of local > recreation & > >entertainment. When it starts to warm up, they > close up the "winter" > >homes and go back north. These then sit empty for > months, while > >thousands are living in the desert, under bridges > and in substandard > >housing. My conclusion: These folks are just as > greedy and selfish > >as any big corp, maybe even more so as I see very > little > >contribution to our communities from them, unless > it is in the form > >of some self serving charitable activity they > enjoy, without getting > >their hands too dirty. These people are doing > nothing to "m! > >ake a living", they contribute little or nothing to > our communities > >(except that they hire locals to clean their houses > & pull their > >weeds). > >It was these same families that depleted the > midwest farmlands to > >the point of the notorious "dustbowl" years. This > mess was cleaned > >up using public funds (USDA) and the farmers > returned to the land. > >Now I learn that once again selfish, ignorant, > greedy farmers are > >busy about killing off a substantial portion of the > Gulf, and your > >only defense is that you are feeding cows, which > has been proven to > >be the most wasteful, inefficient, environmentally > damaging and > >stupid way to feed people. I'll pass on the beef. > >Sorry for the rant, but you Mr. Midwest farmer, > need to take > >responsibility for your industries actions. Perhaps > you are not one > >of the ones with a "winter" home here, but if not, > I bet you would > >like to be! And I bet you will dump any amount of > poison on the land > >to achieve that! Take responsibility! Learn what > you are doing in > >the big picture. We need you to do this. The world > needs you to do > >this. Please don't retreat into your small world of > concern only for > >your immediate family. > > > > >As far as the remark about not helping feed the > world, I dont > > >know if the rest of the world could fill in the > void if we shut down > > >for the year or not, I suppose you could eat soy > burgers or >something, > > >oh I forgot we raise soybeans to. One other > thing, if you dont want > > >to > > >contract mad cow, just keep chomping on that good > ole USA beef >that > > >by the way eats the corn I raise. > > > >What's wrong with soy burgers? > > > >Tim > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To uns
Re: [biofuel] "Poor" midwest farmers
A-men !! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] "Poor" midwest farmers
Hi Tim You don't like 'em much, then? :-) Anyway, seems he didn't like your babble either, nor my further babble - he just unsubscribed! No doubt in high dudgeon. Pity he didn't/couldn't respond. I really wanted to know if he grew any food on his farm. Altogether a pity he left, of course - maybe he was after making ethanol from some of that corn (or bd from the soy) to defray his energy/fertiliser costs, might even have learnt something in the doing. But I guess the fact that he left so peremptorily indicates that he can't abide any opinion other than his own anyway, not the kind of mindset that learns stuff easily. You probably hit the mark all too accurately. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ > > Well now, isnt that just pure babble. Of course its about > >profit, there are people in the midwest trying to make a living. >As far >as corp-orations go, you cant outlaw them, they for the most >part are >you and I, kinda like big, bad government. > >Living in Arizona these past 17 years, and working as an HVAC >contractor, I have met many dozens of farmers from the midwest. They >come here in the winter to avoid the severe weather up north. They >spend $30 to $150k on flimsy manufactured housing which are enclosed >in 8 foot block walls with 24/7 guards at the gates. They invariably >drive big new Oldsmobiles and dress very nice. They also spend lots >of money eating in restaurants & partaking of local recreation & >entertainment. When it starts to warm up, they close up the "winter" >homes and go back north. These then sit empty for months, while >thousands are living in the desert, under bridges and in substandard >housing. My conclusion: These folks are just as greedy and selfish >as any big corp, maybe even more so as I see very little >contribution to our communities from them, unless it is in the form >of some self serving charitable activity they enjoy, without getting >their hands too dirty. These people are doing nothing to "m! >ake a living", they contribute little or nothing to our communities >(except that they hire locals to clean their houses & pull their >weeds). >It was these same families that depleted the midwest farmlands to >the point of the notorious "dustbowl" years. This mess was cleaned >up using public funds (USDA) and the farmers returned to the land. >Now I learn that once again selfish, ignorant, greedy farmers are >busy about killing off a substantial portion of the Gulf, and your >only defense is that you are feeding cows, which has been proven to >be the most wasteful, inefficient, environmentally damaging and >stupid way to feed people. I'll pass on the beef. >Sorry for the rant, but you Mr. Midwest farmer, need to take >responsibility for your industries actions. Perhaps you are not one >of the ones with a "winter" home here, but if not, I bet you would >like to be! And I bet you will dump any amount of poison on the land >to achieve that! Take responsibility! Learn what you are doing in >the big picture. We need you to do this. The world needs you to do >this. Please don't retreat into your small world of concern only for >your immediate family. > > >As far as the remark about not helping feed the world, I dont > >know if the rest of the world could fill in the void if we shut down > >for the year or not, I suppose you could eat soy burgers or >something, > >oh I forgot we raise soybeans to. One other thing, if you dont want > >to > >contract mad cow, just keep chomping on that good ole USA beef >that > >by the way eats the corn I raise. > >What's wrong with soy burgers? > >Tim Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] "Poor" midwest farmers
> Well now, isnt that just pure babble. Of course its about >profit, there are people in the midwest trying to make a living. As far >as >corp-orations go, you cant outlaw them, they for the most part are >you and I, >kinda like big, bad government. Living in Arizona these past 17 years, and working as an HVAC contractor, I have met many dozens of farmers from the midwest. They come here in the winter to avoid the severe weather up north. They spend $30 to $150k on flimsy manufactured housing which are enclosed in 8 foot block walls with 24/7 guards at the gates. They invariably drive big new Oldsmobiles and dress very nice. They also spend lots of money eating in restaurants & partaking of local recreation & entertainment. When it starts to warm up, they close up the "winter" homes and go back north. These then sit empty for months, while thousands are living in the desert, under bridges and in substandard housing. My conclusion: These folks are just as greedy and selfish as any big corp, maybe even more so as I see very little contribution to our communities from them, unless it is in the form of some self serving charitable activity they enjoy, without getting their hands too dirty. These people are doing nothing to "m! ake a living", they contribute little or nothing to our communities (except that they hire locals to clean their houses & pull their weeds). It was these same families that depleted the midwest farmlands to the point of the notorious "dustbowl" years. This mess was cleaned up using public funds (USDA) and the farmers returned to the land. Now I learn that once again selfish, ignorant, greedy farmers are busy about killing off a substantial portion of the Gulf, and your only defense is that you are feeding cows, which has been proven to be the most wasteful, inefficient, environmentally damaging and stupid way to feed people. I'll pass on the beef. Sorry for the rant, but you Mr. Midwest farmer, need to take responsibility for your industries actions. Perhaps you are not one of the ones with a "winter" home here, but if not, I bet you would like to be! And I bet you will dump any amount of poison on the land to achieve that! Take responsibility! Learn what you are doing in the big picture. We need you to do this. The world needs you to do this. Please don't retreat into your small world of concern only for your immediate family. >As far as the remark about not helping feed the world, I dont >know if the rest of the world could fill in the void if we shut down >for the year or not, I suppose you could eat soy burgers or >something, >oh I forgot we raise soybeans to. One other thing, if you dont want >to >contract mad cow, just keep chomping on that good ole USA beef >that >by the way eats the corn I raise. What's wrong with soy burgers? Tim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
