[biofuel] Re: Last word on forests
http://www.yesmagazine.org/23livingeconomy/flaccavento.htm from the earth, up by Anthony Flaccavento Before any course of action, we should first ask: Photo by Ann Hawthorne What is already here? What does nature allow us to do here? What does nature help us to do here? Wendell Berry On November 1, 1996, the day-shift crew arrived at the Louisiana Pacific Waferboard factory in Dungannon, Virginia. Greeted by a small group of security guards and a management representative, they were told to go home. The plant was closed. Permanently. No notice had been given. Ten years after opening its doors in this richly forested Scott County community, the plant laid off nearly 100 workers, also idling loggers who had been supplying the plant with logs. The profits from this plant, management said, were not high enough to keep it operating. The Appalachian regions of Tennessee and Virginia are not in crisis. Rather, the area is suffering from long-term economic stagnation and marginalization, and steady ecological deterioration. It is an all too common story of cultural and economic subordination, of individuals and communities gradually relinquishing the skills, knowledge, and bonds that made this part of the world different from countless others. But there is another Appalachian tale unfolding. It is the evolving story of community-based initiatives regenerating the region's economy and culture from within. At Appalachian Sustainable Development (ASD), we focus our efforts on a 10-county area of southwest Virginia and northeast Tennessee. This part of Appalachia has sustained jobless rates two to three times higher than US rates, approaching 20 percent in some counties; poverty rates exceed 30 percent in some counties. Our plan was clear yet ambitious: to help the community build a more sustainable economy from networks of small, local endeavors. ASD set itself the task of transforming two central legs of Appalachia's economy: agriculture and timber. In the seven years since ASD was formed, the most important lesson we learned was this: Building an alternative regional economy-one that is more just, more ecologically sound and more self reliant-requires networks of relationships that are synergistic, and a means of capturing and accumulating knowledge and assets. We have come to call this an infrastructure for community sustainability. The foundation of this infrastructure is the ecosystem. Therefore, the strategy focuses on restoring ecological health, creating livelihoods and economic systems that are ecologically sustainable, and building the financial and physical capital needed to add value to the region's natural resources and bridge the gap between producers and the marketplace. snip From forests to floors ASD's sustainable forestry and wood products program follows a path similar to our agriculture efforts. ASD forester Emily Duncan works with interested landowners to assess the health of their forests and inventory the timber. Together, they create a plan to protect streams and waterways, conserve wildlife habitat, and regenerate biodiversity. If appropriate, Emily then marks some timber for harvesting. The cut includes a high proportion of lower-quality trees in order to help regenerate both species diversity and better quality timber for future generations. Trees harvested under our standards are purchased by ASD, sawed into boards, dried in our dry kiln, and then manufactured into flooring, cabinets, and other products by local companies. This restorative forestry requires at least three things: patient landowners willing to forego some money in the short term in favor of long-term wealth, both economic and ecological; skilled loggers, whether mechanical or animal-powered in their operations; and markets that pay closer to the true cost for wood products. The beauty of the process is its affordability. Because of the proximity of trees to their market, and because of the value adding-steps in the process, it is possible to pay a substantial premium to loggers and landowners, while charging only slightly more to the end user. Sawing the logs, drying the boards, and manufacturing cabinets or flooring makes every foot of log far more valuable. The Louisiana Pacific waferboard factory that laid off nearly 100 people in 1996 relied on extensive clear- cutting for its cheap supply of timber, and it established no roots in the community. ASD and its many partners are working towards a different type of economic development-one that is inextricably local, that builds upon and adds value to the ecological wealth of our communities. Like a good farmer, the more we pursue this path, the more we see what is already here and what nature enables us to do now and into the future. To contact Anthony Flaccavento and ASD, call 276/623-1121 or visit www.appsusdev.org. Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [biofuel] Re: Last word on forests
What they are doing is something that I can subscribe to and if you seen what Motie said, he will too. But the problem discussed from the start was that the environmentalists hindered this in Motie's forest. In Motie's forest they did not do clear cutting, they want to do selective harvesting and cleaning, but was not able to do so. This because it is a National park and they were refused to finance a responsible forest management by the courts. By being hindered to do so, they have an unbalanced forest with large risks of fires. This in a National Park, that should be the best of the best, otherwise it is no real meaning with National Park. I understand fully Motie's predicament and would go crazy if I was in his situation. If he would have been in private forest as the link describes, it would have been possible. It is not lack of knowledge in what is best, it is lack of knowledge by those who sabotage proper forest management in Motie's forest. Hakan Sure, Hakan, but there are more forests in the world than Motie's, and generally there's a lot of crap talked about environmentalist obstructionism, as now well established. Crap and behind it, a deliberate disinformation campaign. http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/clear/on_wise/greens.html The War Against The Greens The Wise Use Movement, The New Right, and Anti-Environmental Violence http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/clear/players/players.html CLEAR Resources The Enemies of Democracy http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous3.html#070701 Massive Attack, In These Times 25/20 -- Logging giant Boise Cascade and its right-wing allies have launched a coordinated assault on Rainforest Action Network's funding and reputation after RAN initiated a high-profile campaign to pressure Boise Cascade to stop logging old-growth forests and to implement sustainable forest-management practices. http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/20/hoffman2520.html etc etc regards Keith At 10:33 PM 12/18/2002 +0900, you wrote: http://www.yesmagazine.org/23livingeconomy/flaccavento.htm from the earth, up by Anthony Flaccavento Before any course of action, we should first ask: Photo by Ann Hawthorne What is already here? What does nature allow us to do here? What does nature help us to do here? Wendell Berry On November 1, 1996, the day-shift crew arrived at the Louisiana Pacific Waferboard factory in Dungannon, Virginia. Greeted by a small group of security guards and a management representative, they were told to go home. The plant was closed. Permanently. No notice had been given. Ten years after opening its doors in this richly forested Scott County community, the plant laid off nearly 100 workers, also idling loggers who had been supplying the plant with logs. The profits from this plant, management said, were not high enough to keep it operating. The Appalachian regions of Tennessee and Virginia are not in crisis. Rather, the area is suffering from long-term economic stagnation and marginalization, and steady ecological deterioration. It is an all too common story of cultural and economic subordination, of individuals and communities gradually relinquishing the skills, knowledge, and bonds that made this part of the world different from countless others. But there is another Appalachian tale unfolding. It is the evolving story of community-based initiatives regenerating the region's economy and culture from within. At Appalachian Sustainable Development (ASD), we focus our efforts on a 10-county area of southwest Virginia and northeast Tennessee. This part of Appalachia has sustained jobless rates two to three times higher than US rates, approaching 20 percent in some counties; poverty rates exceed 30 percent in some counties. Our plan was clear yet ambitious: to help the community build a more sustainable economy from networks of small, local endeavors. ASD set itself the task of transforming two central legs of Appalachia's economy: agriculture and timber. In the seven years since ASD was formed, the most important lesson we learned was this: Building an alternative regional economy-one that is more just, more ecologically sound and more self reliant-requires networks of relationships that are synergistic, and a means of capturing and accumulating knowledge and assets. We have come to call this an infrastructure for community sustainability. The foundation of this infrastructure is the ecosystem. Therefore, the strategy focuses on restoring ecological health, creating livelihoods and economic systems that are ecologically sustainable, and building the financial and physical capital needed to add value to the region's natural resources and bridge the gap between producers and the marketplace. snip From forests to floors ASD's sustainable forestry and wood products program follows a path similar to our agriculture efforts. ASD forester Emily Duncan works with interested landowners
Re: [biofuel] Re: Last word on forests
Are there prescribed burns in your park? I know that they do them frequently in Sequoia, and that there was a disastrous one in Bandelier, which probably really set back the movement for prescribed burns. Have you had any experiences with them? On a more abstract note, I think the root of this, and most environmental problems comes from people separating entirely themselves from nature... we decide to manage nature like a factory, and then set aside a few little areas in parks so we can go look at nature in all its splendour, praise the lord... no surprise that people get upset when we want to go and manage those areas as well, not matter how well done it may be. The problem is with the way the entire landscape is managed - you won't get much sympathy for doing anything in the parks, as long as the rest of the landscape is being raped. And I can sympathise with that. I do know something about this... I've spent much of the last 8 years doing field work in pristine and old growth forests in Ontario (and some in BC) and we have a problem with fire supression here too. Still, in the last pockets of pristine forest I'm not keen to invite in timber industry to do something about it... I know that the fire cycle is incredibly variable even in this area of red and white pine forest, where they are quite frequent, so I figure we have some time still to figure it out. Whether that's true in your area, of course, I don't know. I wonder if we invest energy in prescribed burns if they can't work better... like everything, it can probably be done if there's a will to do it. I've done some selective cutting myself, in woodlots that have been managed for many years, but I see this as something completely different... even I have fallen into the two categories trap, or rather I've been forced into it, because it's the only model we've been offered. I believe, or hope, that will begin to change... but it has to change on both sides, that is industry must move as well. The other big problem is that moderates are rarely heard in forest debates... mostly you get corporations and hard core environmentalists sparring, but the whole framework of the discussion is wrong. I believe that in Quebec about eight (?) years ago unions, environmental groups, and some logging companies put together a joint statement asking for improved management, reductions in annual cuts, etc. - I don't know how they feel about it now, but those kind of collaborations are neccessary to make change. mike Hakan Falk wrote: What they are doing is something that I can subscribe to and if you seen what Motie said, he will too. But the problem discussed from the start was that the environmentalists hindered this in Motie's forest. In Motie's forest they did not do clear cutting, they want to do selective harvesting and cleaning, but was not able to do so. This because it is a National park and they were refused to finance a responsible forest management by the courts. By being hindered to do so, they have an unbalanced forest with large risks of fires. This in a National Park, that should be the best of the best, otherwise it is no real meaning with National Park. I understand fully Motie's predicament and would go crazy if I was in his situation. If he would have been in private forest as the link describes, it would have been possible. It is not lack of knowledge in what is best, it is lack of knowledge by those who sabotage proper forest management in Motie's forest. Hakan At 10:33 PM 12/18/2002 +0900, you wrote: http://www.yesmagazine.org/23livingeconomy/flaccavento.htm from the earth, up by Anthony Flaccavento Before any course of action, we should first ask: Photo by Ann Hawthorne What is already here? What does nature allow us to do here? What does nature help us to do here? Wendell Berry On November 1, 1996, the day-shift crew arrived at the Louisiana Pacific Waferboard factory in Dungannon, Virginia. Greeted by a small group of security guards and a management representative, they were told to go home. The plant was closed. Permanently. No notice had been given. Ten years after opening its doors in this richly forested Scott County community, the plant laid off nearly 100 workers, also idling loggers who had been supplying the plant with logs. The profits from this plant, management said, were not high enough to keep it operating. The Appalachian regions of Tennessee and Virginia are not in crisis. Rather, the area is suffering from long-term economic stagnation and marginalization, and steady ecological deterioration. It is an all too common story of cultural and economic subordination, of individuals and communities gradually relinquishing the skills, knowledge, and bonds that made this part of the world different from countless others. But there is another Appalachian tale unfolding. It is the evolving story of community-based initiatives regenerating the region's economy and
Re: [biofuel] Re: Last word on forests
The community ecosystem trust One vehicle for doing this is the community ecosystem trust. In such a trust, those with a claim to land create a legal instrument to ensure that whoever uses and manages the land does so in a way aimed at ecological and economic health - in perpetuity. The community can do this however members choose, as long as they meet the goals. The trust is a perfect vehicle because it is so explicitly value-based, and so comprehensive. snip In Nepal, for example, thousands of legally recognized forest user groups collectively manage economic activities to sustain both the forest and the community. These efforts, for the most part, are limited to more marginal lands and restricted by government policies. Nonetheless, they have increased the sustainability of the forests and increased returns to the communities. Recently, a national federation of these groups was established to mediate between these groups and the national government to get ever greater support and authority for these groups. Drawing on this and many other experiments in Asia, Africa, and the Americas, we at the International Network of Forests and Communities have developed a process for the British Columbia provincial government to develop such experimentation on an ongoing basis. The will already exists in many communities - but there is no way. Here's how it would work. A province-wide ecosystem trust charter would set the general terms under which any local trust would operate. An independent working group would assist communities that want to create ecosystem trusts and advocate for a shift in authority over local resource management from federal and provincial government to the local trusts. If such a process existed, the Nuxalk would have a way to move toward the restoration of the health of the candlefish and the Bella Coola Valley. Native and non-native fishers, tourist operators, and local forestry operations would have a reason to talk. After all, if something could be worked out among members of the community, they could act - and the government would be required to support them. And what could be the objection to this empowerment of local communities if ecosystem sustainability and community health terms are set out in the provincial trust charter, thus ensuring that local action protected the public interest? So residents of the Bella Coola Valley could designate the boundaries of a watershed area that would become the community ecosystem trust. A community trust authority could set comprehensive plans for the management of the trust area, establishing new performance criteria and best practices that would apply to all who live and work in the area. These would apply to shrimp trawlers whose harvesting impacts the eulachon and forest companies cutting in the watershed. This structure would support economic innovation that can work within trust conditions, so the need for continuing agency regulation would decrease as sustainability became embedded directly in economic practice - the essence of the commons. Among the new roles for government would be to help this happen with community loan funds, technical assistance, marketing networks, and so on. (Forestry and fishery products from these areas would be ripe for eco-certification, for example.) And, above all, the precedent would be set. Building on the successes of one place, more communities could sign on. Over time, a whole new jurisdictional level would emerge, a jurisdiction rooted in trusts that themselves embody the principles of the commons. Adapted to local experiences but coordinated to work together, this idea offers a potential to recast democracy, and to do so in a gradual, cooperative fashion. Facilitated transition Today, governments that are secretly negotiating away their powers at the WTO and the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) have lost any claim to ecological legitimacy. To regain ecological legitimacy, governments must support initiatives that are already occurring on the ground. In response to globalization's top-down agenda of economic structural adjustment, we can create models of local initiatives across the planet that are community-driven, bottom-up examples of ecological structural adjustment. The community ecosystem trust is one way to do this. It moves beyond tinkering with sustainable practices through market mechanisms and more agency rules to comprehensive change by developing whole sustainability one place at a time. Communities can adopt the trust charter when the time is right and adapt it to the local landscape. Then gradually, place by place, the commons will once again be held by the communities that live with them every day, protected and kept in trust for future generations. When there is a way, there is already a will. Mike M'Gonigle, a co-founder of Greenpeace International and the International Network of Forests and
Re: [biofuel] Re: Last word on forests
You find no disagreement with me. I think it is enough of mud to go around. Hakan At 12:33 AM 12/19/2002 +0900, you wrote: I understand fully Motie's predicament and would go crazy if I was in his situation. If he would have been in private forest as the link describes, it would have been possible. It is not lack of knowledge in what is best, it is lack of knowledge by those who sabotage proper forest management in Motie's forest. Hakan Sure, Hakan, but there are more forests in the world than Motie's, and generally there's a lot of crap talked about environmentalist obstructionism, as now well established. Crap and behind it, a deliberate disinformation campaign. http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/clear/on_wise/greens.html The War Against The Greens The Wise Use Movement, The New Right, and Anti-Environmental Violence http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/clear/players/players.html CLEAR Resources The Enemies of Democracy http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous3.html#070701 Massive Attack, In These Times 25/20 -- Logging giant Boise Cascade and its right-wing allies have launched a coordinated assault on Rainforest Action Network's funding and reputation after RAN initiated a high-profile campaign to pressure Boise Cascade to stop logging old-growth forests and to implement sustainable forest-management practices. http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/20/hoffman2520.html etc etc regards Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Last word on forests
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Prairie Dog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry to start this up again, but I just HAD to... -Joel R. (sarcasm) OK! You've convinced me! I'll immediately start a Petition to make the local Golf Course quit destroying their beautiful Greens and Fairways with their Mowers. Some greedy person is probably making money selling the clippings. No more Mowers on our Golf Courses! Every few years, a burn may be acceptable, but only if it is set by lightning strikes. Under Clinton's Roadless Initiative, no firetrucks will be allowed access to control the fires, until the buildings are endangered, and even then only the buildings can be saved. The Farmers are next! Those greedy Capitalists must be stopped from clear-cutting those Amber waves of Grain. If we allow them to keep destroying the crops through clear-cutting methods, we'll all soon starve, and our croplands will all be bare dirt. We must protect 'our' croplands from those greedy Farmers. Let's all chain ourselves to a cornstalk, and keep those Combines from destroying a corn field near you! Force them to do an Environmental Impact Study, under our supervision. Studies can be completed in 2 years or less, but we need the Courts to stop the destruction until the Study is complete. Does anyone know how to effectively 'Spike' a cornstalk, or put sand in the engine on a Harvester? Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Last word on forests
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Joel, This information was provided earlier by Keith as an argument on this issues. Since it is the round for last word, I like to clarify my understanding of the discussion. Motie who is deeply involved with forest management in the area where he lives, have some local and particular problems. This has to do with how his particular forest works and how different interest groups acts with regards to his forest. When I say his forest, I mean the forest that he has interest in. Motie made it clear from the outset of the discussion, that he was talking about his forest and his opinion of what happened there. Discussing the issue from the outside, made me bringing up several points about forest management that was within my knowledge and experiences. During this exchange, I became fully convinced that Motie knew very well what he talked about and he was a responsible and caring representative for the forest management interests in his forest. I did of course not know his forest and my arguments and convictions had in this case to be of general nature. Keith who is a knowledgeable man in this field, picked up on the global aspect, but not without first recognizing Motie's competence and that he was the best one to talk for his forest. Said this, I like to add the following last words, Our nature is a sensitive environment that through millions of years developed a balance between the species. When some species started to dominate to a level that was not sustainable, things happened on both short and long term that corrected it. We now have a specie that are growing out of proportion, we call them humans and on short term the nature already started to try to apply corrections, long term nature will succeed. The impact of the humans is severe and during a very short time period they have caused enormous damages. Its survival will be totally dependent on responsible and sustainable management of nature. If we leave the solutions to nature, it will be very painful for the future humans that have to take the consequences of todays excesses. The environmentalist that wants to leave things only to nature, must also belive in the natural thinning of the human population. They should fight against medicines, transport, feeding starving people and all the other things that work against the natural control of the human population. Personally I prefer a managed sustainable world, even if it is no chance that I will ever see it. But we all have to work against this goal and show some kind of responsibility in trying to find a comfortable level for future humans or at least give them a chance to survive. Hakan Hakan, I believe you have a grasp of the situation. Broad brush 'solutions' cannot work. One National Policy cannot possibly cover the wide variance in local conditions. Proper Management must be on a local level, suited to local conditions, by competent local people. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Last word on forests
Hi Motie --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Prairie Dog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry to start this up again, but I just HAD to... So much for last words, eh, Joel? Especially since it had already been posted. It was the main point in the original ref I gave Greg: http://ens-news.com/ens/jul2002/2002-07-11-06.asp Conflicting Reports Shade Forest Fire Debate -Joel R. (sarcasm) OK! You've convinced me! I'll immediately start a Petition to make the local Golf Course quit destroying their beautiful Greens and Fairways with their Mowers. Some greedy person is probably making money selling the clippings. No more Mowers on our Golf Courses! Every few years, a burn may be acceptable, but only if it is set by lightning strikes. Under Clinton's Roadless Initiative, no firetrucks will be allowed access to control the fires, until the buildings are endangered, and even then only the buildings can be saved. The Farmers are next! Those greedy Capitalists must be stopped from clear-cutting those Amber waves of Grain. If we allow them to keep destroying the crops through clear-cutting methods, we'll all soon starve, and our croplands will all be bare dirt. We must protect 'our' croplands from those greedy Farmers. Let's all chain ourselves to a cornstalk, and keep those Combines from destroying a corn field near you! Force them to do an Environmental Impact Study, under our supervision. Studies can be completed in 2 years or less, but we need the Courts to stop the destruction until the Study is complete. Does anyone know how to effectively 'Spike' a cornstalk, or put sand in the engine on a Harvester? Hakan said this in a previous response to Joel: snip Motie who is deeply involved with forest management in the area where he lives, have some local and particular problems. This has to do with how his particular forest works and how different interest groups acts with regards to his forest. When I say his forest, I mean the forest that he has interest in. Motie made it clear from the outset of the discussion, that he was talking about his forest and his opinion of what happened there. snip Keith who is a knowledgeable man in this field, picked up on the global aspect, but not without first recognizing Motie's competence and that he was the best one to talk for his forest. I accepted that, but I don't accept this, what you're saying here, not if you followed the discussion I had with Greg, not as anything but a rare exception. Regards Keith Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Last word on forests
Very well said, Hakan! And yes, I did know that Motie was talking of his own forest and experience, but no, I didn't catch Keith's note with the info on it from Wilderness Society. Being on the Digest version, I sometimes read things in reverse order.. :-) I, too, have often wondered if humans will survive either a) our own actions, and/or b) nature's revenge... I agree especially with your sentiment: Personally I prefer a managed sustainable world, even if it is no chance that I will ever see it. Thanks, Hakan! (and Keith and Motie, too!) -Joel R. Hakan wrote: -Original Message- Message: 25 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 05:26:39 +0100 From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Last word on forests Dear Joel, This information was provided earlier by Keith as an argument on this issues. Since it is the round for last word, I like to clarify my understanding of the discussion. Motie who is deeply involved with forest management in the area where he lives, have some local and particular problems. This has to do with how his particular forest works and how different interest groups acts with regards to his forest. When I say his forest, I mean the forest that he has interest in. Motie made it clear from the outset of the discussion, that he was talking about his forest and his opinion of what happened there. Discussing the issue from the outside, made me bringing up several points about forest management that was within my knowledge and experiences. During this exchange, I became fully convinced that Motie knew very well what he talked about and he was a responsible and caring representative for the forest management interests in his forest. I did of course not know his forest and my arguments and convictions had in this case to be of general nature. Keith who is a knowledgeable man in this field, picked up on the global aspect, but not without first recognizing Motie's competence and that he was the best one to talk for his forest. Said this, I like to add the following last words, Our nature is a sensitive environment that through millions of years developed a balance between the species. When some species started to dominate to a level that was not sustainable, things happened on both short and long term that corrected it. We now have a specie that are growing out of proportion, we call them humans and on short term the nature already started to try to apply corrections, long term nature will succeed. The impact of the humans is severe and during a very short time period they have caused enormous damages. Its survival will be totally dependent on responsible and sustainable management of nature. If we leave the solutions to nature, it will be very painful for the future humans that have to take the consequences of todays excesses. The environmentalist that wants to leave things only to nature, must also belive in the natural thinning of the human population. They should fight against medicines, transport, feeding starving people and all the other things that work against the natural control of the human population. Personally I prefer a managed sustainable world, even if it is no chance that I will ever see it. But we all have to work against this goal and show some kind of responsibility in trying to find a comfortable level for future humans or at least give them a chance to survive. Hakan Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
