Re: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
> > Any experience using glycerin as a heating fuel? >Afraid not but very interested in same. With winter begining and an aging >slow combustion stove I,m looking for alternatives. >Some interesting postings on this subject over last month or so. > Regards , Paul Be sure you have efficient combustion or you risk releasing toxins (acroleine). Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
- Original Message - From: "Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol > Paul my next batch will be with cotton seed oil. I intend to use the > twostage with KOH rather than NaOH. The best I can do with NaOH seems to be > 80-85% pure, Pure reagent grade NaOH can be obtained from chemical supply warehouses. Various grades of purity (not water content) are available. Analytical grade is not needed, technical grade is more than suitable. suspect that leaves too much water to avoid soaps. I'll take >KOH is $100/25kg and Methanol $30/20l drum. Will check up on local prices and advise. Haven't had to buy methanol yet friend gave me 2 20L drums) but think that it is about $200.00 Australian for a 200L drum. > Any experience using glycerin as a heating fuel? Afraid not but very interested in same. With winter begining and an aging slow combustion stove I,m looking for alternatives. Some interesting postings on this subject over last month or so. Regards , Paul Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
- Original Message - > Paul, one vessel would be great, but poses (at first glance) two > problems: > -JIM Points taken Jim, Am trying to simplify process as much as possible. Even tried methylated spirits for methoxide against all advice (40% water) and ended up with a jelly like liquid resembling "pears" soap. Simplification also involves the reduction of time to produce the BD as I could be using this time for other productive work. At this stage the plan goes something like this. Feedstock: Used cottenseed oil supplied in 20L drums. Conversion: Methoxide added to cold oil in drums, stirring for a few minutes. Process 4 drums at a time. Glycerol sets firm in bottom of drum after 24hr standing allowing BD to be poured off. Washing: S/H slow combustion H/W unit with inbuilt booster element. Pump to circulate wash water from base of unit delivering large drops of water over surface. Drying: Water drained off after settling and during heating. Filtering: System undecided. Storage: directly into vehicle tank (130L) or jerry cans. Still a few things to investigate 1) does cold processing produce a suitable product or is warm processing better. Esterification appears to be complete with cold process. Will compare the products. 2). NaOH difficult to dissolve in methanol time/energy consuming. Will try a batch using methoxide made by adding a concentrated aqueous solution of NaOH to methanol. Regards, Paul Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
Hi All, For those who are reclaiming methanol what % of the methanol do you get back? I assume vacuum recovery method. Thanks, jerry dycus __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
$2 a pound for KOH? How much does KCl cost? -Original Message- From: Gary and Jos Kimlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 5:26 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol Paul my next batch will be with cotton seed oil. I intend to use the twostage with KOH rather than NaOH. The best I can do with NaOH seems to be 80-85% pure, I suspect that leaves too much water to avoid soaps. I'll take your advice and wash and dry it. I'll let you know how it goes. The oil collectors here buy the oil and sell to a soap factory. I'll need more experience to determine the break even point on oil cost, so far KOH is $100/25kg and Methanol $30/20l drum. I need to calculate the average energy cost. Any experience using glycerin as a heating fuel? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
Paul my next batch will be with cotton seed oil. I intend to use the twostage with KOH rather than NaOH. The best I can do with NaOH seems to be 80-85% pure, I suspect that leaves too much water to avoid soaps. I'll take your advice and wash and dry it. I'll let you know how it goes. The oil collectors here buy the oil and sell to a soap factory. I'll need more experience to determine the break even point on oil cost, so far KOH is $100/25kg and Methanol $30/20l drum. I need to calculate the average energy cost. Any experience using glycerin as a heating fuel? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
Paul, one vessel would be great, but poses (at first glance) two problems: Time and batch quantity, which is to say that you'd be producing a smaller batch over a longer period of time. Sure, it's compact, but for a garage operation I'd prefer a multi-barrel approach allowing many batches to be mixed, settled, washed and stored at the same time. Just a thought! -JIM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
- Original Message - > Treat anything clear as Methanol. > My first attempt making biod, just sucking in Meth and at a temp of 55oC I > found at least 250ml of Meth in my liquid trap. > Be very careful. > Ian Ian, In my trial laboratory scale batches have found that methoxide and SVO (cottenseed in this case) do not mix readily. Would suggest that the addition should be at a slow rate or stirring rate increased during the addition. Local fish and chip shop recently changed from solid veg oil (Frytol) to cottenseed oil. About the same time the people collecting SVO decided to charge for its removal. Owner is happy to give me the oil but I suspect that he wants some biodiesel in return. My initial trials were on refined safflower oil and various methods gave good results. Cottenseed oil has the advantage of being an oil at room temperature and can easily be transfered to the reaction vessel. To reduce variables the oil was first washed and then heated to 160 deg C 15% Methanol and 6.5g/litre NaOH at 55 deg C produced a heavy gelatinous deposit of glycerine/soap which set solid after 24 hours. Would have to be drained from the vessel much earlier or dug out the next day. Reduction of the ammount of NaOH produced much less deposit. As low as 3g/L ( below that suggested as required for the reaction with acid free oil) gave a managable product. Yet to compare the biodiesel from these batches( S.G. and viscosity) to determine suitability of product. "Foolproof two stage method" gave good results with this oi, probably because of the smaller ammount of NaOH specified. The product from the two stage method however turned cloudy after a few weeks forming a whitish suspension over time and seemingly reverting back to the heavier oil. This batch had not been washed and I suspect that that could have been the problem. Other batches washed and heat dried, have remained crystal clear. Washing the product has presented problems. The cottenseed biodiesel and reaction products/excess reagents mix tends to emulsify readily with water forming a whitish flock. Small scale washing using aquarium pump and stone was out of the question, too much agitation and emulsion formation. Most sucessful washing technique so far involved gentle addition of large water droplets to surface of biodiesel. Water collecting at bottom of wash vessel is pumped up to top and sprinkled onto B/D. Intend to use this system on production vessel. At this point am working towards using the one vessel for reaction/washing/drying. Will let you know how things go, Regards Paul. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
Sorry, Mike, I didn't make it very clear, did I? I've used much more than 30 gallons in processing fuel. In total, I have recovered and reused about 30 gallons. Dale --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mike Brownstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dale, > > Isn't there any loss of methanol during reaction? I am surprised that you > are recovering all that you use. Or did I mis-understand you? > > Mike > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
I think you may be near the correct answer for a mixture only of water and methanol. The boiling point of mixtures can be calculated, but are easier to find experimentally. However, in recovering methanol from biodiesel byproduct we have a much more complex mixture. Any water in the mix is either tied up in soap or, at the very least, heavy in dissolved catalyst. Either will make the water much more difficult to boil. I haven't taken my rig up to high enough temperature to after methanol recovery to recover any water, so I can't be sure at what temperature and pressure water recovery would begin, but suspect it would be at a very high temp or low pressure. Dale --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hi Dale > > Thanks, good info. > > >I don't think water can be > >recovered from the byproduct at anywhere near the boiling point of > >methanol. > > Now let's see if I can get this right. If it's a mixture of methanol > and water that's being boiled, the boiling point of the mixture will > be somewhere between the two boiling points, depending on the > proportion of the mix. Of course vapours come off before boiling > point is reached, but the methanol component won't boil off at the > boiling point of pure methanol (64.7 deg C), while the water > component remains unboiled until the temperature reaches 100 deg C. > If you evaporate a liquid mixture, the vapour has a higher proportion > of the more volatile components than the liquid it evaporated from. > Alcohol is more volatile than water (it takes less energy to vaporise > alcohol than to vaporise water). So when you boil a mix of the two, > the vapour contains more alcohol - not because the alcohol component > of the mix is boiling first, but because the alcohol is more > volatile. So the proportion of alcohol in the boiling liquid steadily > goes down, and the boiling point of the mixture steadily goes up. In > a 50-50 mix the boiling point will start off being halfway between > the boiling points of the two components - more alcohol lowers the > boiling point, more water raises it. If you boil a mix of methanol > and water, you'll get vapours of both. > > (How did I do, O Silent One?) > > If I screwed up, Dale, I'll no doubt be hearing about it and will > post a correction. > > Thanks again. > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > Handmade Projects > Tokyo > http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
Treat anything clear as Methanol. My first attempt making biod, just sucking in Meth and at a temp of 55oC I found at least 250ml of Meth in my liquid trap. Be very careful. Ian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 7:59 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol > >I've used and re-used about thirty gallons of methanol so far using > >my hot pink vacuum still. At first I was worried about recovering > >water at the end of a run, so watched the condensate closely for any > >sign of cloudiness. I've never seen any. I don't think water can be > >recovered from the byproduct at anywhere near the boiling point of > >methanol. > > > >Dale > > > >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >Keith Addison asks: > > > > > > > > >A biodiesel question. If you boil off and distill the excess > >methanol > > > > >from the glycerine for re-use, is it in fact suitable for re-use? > > > > Hi Dale > > Thanks, good info. > > >I don't think water can be > >recovered from the byproduct at anywhere near the boiling point of > >methanol. > > Now let's see if I can get this right. If it's a mixture of methanol > and water that's being boiled, the boiling point of the mixture will > be somewhere between the two boiling points, depending on the > proportion of the mix. Of course vapours come off before boiling > point is reached, but the methanol component won't boil off at the > boiling point of pure methanol (64.7 deg C), while the water > component remains unboiled until the temperature reaches 100 deg C. > If you evaporate a liquid mixture, the vapour has a higher proportion > of the more volatile components than the liquid it evaporated from. > Alcohol is more volatile than water (it takes less energy to vaporise > alcohol than to vaporise water). So when you boil a mix of the two, > the vapour contains more alcohol - not because the alcohol component > of the mix is boiling first, but because the alcohol is more > volatile. So the proportion of alcohol in the boiling liquid steadily > goes down, and the boiling point of the mixture steadily goes up. In > a 50-50 mix the boiling point will start off being halfway between > the boiling points of the two components - more alcohol lowers the > boiling point, more water raises it. If you boil a mix of methanol > and water, you'll get vapours of both. > > (How did I do, O Silent One?) > > If I screwed up, Dale, I'll no doubt be hearing about it and will > post a correction. > > Thanks again. > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > Handmade Projects > Tokyo > http://journeytoforever.org/ > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
Dale is right, recovered methanol is OK to re-use. I have found that from biod made using 15% meth (v/v WVO), the glyc. yields 3% meth (v/v WVO) and is well worth the trouble of simple distillation at 70 deg C. Probably will use 20% in future for an easier life without unnecessary loss of costly reagent. David T Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
Dale, Isn't there any loss of methanol during reaction? I am surprised that you are recovering all that you use. Or did I mis-understand you? Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 3:29 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol I've used and re-used about thirty gallons of methanol so far using my hot pink vacuum still. At first I was worried about recovering water at the end of a run, so watched the condensate closely for any sign of cloudiness. I've never seen any. I don't think water can be recovered from the byproduct at anywhere near the boiling point of methanol. Dale --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Keith Addison asks: > > > > >A biodiesel question. If you boil off and distill the excess methanol > > >from the glycerine for re-use, is it in fact suitable for re-use? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
>I've used and re-used about thirty gallons of methanol so far using >my hot pink vacuum still. At first I was worried about recovering >water at the end of a run, so watched the condensate closely for any >sign of cloudiness. I've never seen any. I don't think water can be >recovered from the byproduct at anywhere near the boiling point of >methanol. > >Dale > >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Keith Addison asks: > > > > > > >A biodiesel question. If you boil off and distill the excess >methanol > > > >from the glycerine for re-use, is it in fact suitable for re-use? > Hi Dale Thanks, good info. >I don't think water can be >recovered from the byproduct at anywhere near the boiling point of >methanol. Now let's see if I can get this right. If it's a mixture of methanol and water that's being boiled, the boiling point of the mixture will be somewhere between the two boiling points, depending on the proportion of the mix. Of course vapours come off before boiling point is reached, but the methanol component won't boil off at the boiling point of pure methanol (64.7 deg C), while the water component remains unboiled until the temperature reaches 100 deg C. If you evaporate a liquid mixture, the vapour has a higher proportion of the more volatile components than the liquid it evaporated from. Alcohol is more volatile than water (it takes less energy to vaporise alcohol than to vaporise water). So when you boil a mix of the two, the vapour contains more alcohol - not because the alcohol component of the mix is boiling first, but because the alcohol is more volatile. So the proportion of alcohol in the boiling liquid steadily goes down, and the boiling point of the mixture steadily goes up. In a 50-50 mix the boiling point will start off being halfway between the boiling points of the two components - more alcohol lowers the boiling point, more water raises it. If you boil a mix of methanol and water, you'll get vapours of both. (How did I do, O Silent One?) If I screwed up, Dale, I'll no doubt be hearing about it and will post a correction. Thanks again. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Reclaiming the methanol
I've used and re-used about thirty gallons of methanol so far using my hot pink vacuum still. At first I was worried about recovering water at the end of a run, so watched the condensate closely for any sign of cloudiness. I've never seen any. I don't think water can be recovered from the byproduct at anywhere near the boiling point of methanol. Dale --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Keith Addison asks: > > > > >A biodiesel question. If you boil off and distill the excess methanol > > >from the glycerine for re-use, is it in fact suitable for re-use? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
