Re: [biofuel] Re: What went wrong?
thanks Brian I'm doing another test batch and so far looks like black stuff on the botton..in the middle looks like ligth brown with gummy stuff and a litle bit on top of something like biodiesel but I'm not sure yet.I'll wait till tomorrow to see what looks like...thanks anyway I own a video club that's why of the name...and i registered this address... jorge - Original Message - From: Brian To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 9:12 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: What went wrong? Jorge, I am trying another test batch this weekend (was unable to put the time in last weekend) with different NaOH. A second test batch following instructions to the T gave the same results. I see the results as an incomplete reaction, with the gummy stuff being an emulsion. I suspect my NaOH supply as the culprit. I'll let folks know if this turns out to actually be the case. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Vip Video Club [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Im having the same thing as Brian...I did the washing in a jar and i got the same. The 5 gal. bucket that i was processing it turned with a gummy stuff on top and underneath that layer is something like used motor oil. I did everything like the instructions,but something went wrong.It seems like the glycerin went to the top and nothing to the botton of the bucket. somebody tell me what i did wrong? Jorge Escobar - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] What went wrong? Brian, Any other thoughts? Other than going back and adhering to the instructions more precisely? Nope. Not a one. What you apparently have is an incomplete reaction on the base side, leaving you with a compliment of esters and emulsifiers, the latter being unreacted mono- and di-glycerides. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 7:27 AM Subject: [biofuel] What went wrong? Well, my first test batch is done, and the end result is less than spectacular. Wondering if anyone has any ideas. I completed the second stage as instructed. 1/2 of my methoxide in, mix for 5 minutes, heat to 130 F, add the remaining methoxide and mix hot until nice golden amber. This only took about 10 minutes, and I continued mixing for a total of 15. Since the instructions say it will take one and a half to two hours, I think this may be one place that things went wrong, although the appearance when I finished was just as described. I let the mixture settle in an old 2 liter soda bottle for about 6 hours, and it looked exactly like the pictures on the JTF web site. Clear, golden amber layer on top with dark glycerol on the bottom. I called the test batch a great success and went on to wash my new biodiesel, which is where the problem came up. I put about 1/3 liter water in a clean 2 liter bottle, decanted the biodiesel on top of it, then shook. I probably shook a little vigorously, but with the assumption that the foolproof method would leave me with product which could withstand this type of washing. What I have now is a cloudy, murky yellow layer of nearly one liter followed by a guhky layer looking most like old soap scum and then a small amount of cloudy water. Since the middle layer looks like soap scum, I am assuming that is exactly what it is. I assume also that the upper layer is biodiesel with water still in it, and may clear eventually. The bottom layer is obviously water with the water soluble leftovers from the biodiesel process. My take on the problem is that either I did not heat and stir long enough in stage two, overheated in stage one or agitated too vigorously in the wash stage. I think it is probably a combination of not enough processing in stage two and overzealous agitation in washing that caused the problem. Any other thoughts? Brian Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel
[biofuel] Re: What went wrong?
Keith, Thanks for the input. I do have some virgin oil that I could use in a single stage reaction, to get a better idea of what the end product is supposed to look like. Despite people saying that in different ways, I hadn't heard it til now. All I was hearing was that you have to start with the single stage process then graduate to the foolproof process. This just seemed like trying to learn something one way then do it in a completely different way, which doesn't make sense. Sometimes having a thick skull doesn't come in too handy, I guess. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Brian Kevin, Thanks for the help. I suspect that overly vigorous agitation is a big part of the problem. The top layer of what I have does seem to be very slowly clearing, as you predict. Try heating it. Not direct heat, use hot water, don't agitate the bd again, try to keep it as-is in its layers. Rereading the process on the JTF site, I also notice that they say that if you get less than 100 cc glycerol, you probably have an incomplete reaction. I don't think that I had any more than 60 or 70 cc, which tells me that this was probably another part of the problem. I'm planning to do another test batch this coming weekend, and will just process longer no matter what I think of the color or clarity of what I have after 15 minutes. Since I am brand new to this, I have obviously never seen what the mix is supposed to look like after processing. I am trying to make an educated guess based on a description, and obviously guessed wrong. Thanks again for the reply. The only way that I'll figure this out is with the help of those who have gone before. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Shea [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: liter water in a clean 2 liter bottle, decanted the biodiesel on top of it, then shook. Agitated too vigorously too early in the wash stage is probably the problem as this caused emusions. No need to waste your test batch...let it stand for a month in a dark place and you should see it (almost completely) come back. I did the same thing to my earlier test batches by jetting the water into my 5 gal batches with the garden hose and creating foamy stuff..Opps! . -Kevin Well, my first test batch is done, and the end result is less than spectacular. Wondering if anyone has any ideas. I completed the second stage as instructed. 1/2 of my methoxide in, mix for 5 minutes, heat to 130 F, add the remaining methoxide and mix hot until nice golden amber. Not amber, straw yellow - some people have questioned that but I don't agree with them, I've found that to be a good indicator. The less reddish it is the better. This only took about 10 minutes, and I continued mixing for a total of 15. Since the instructions say it will take one and a half to two hours, I think this may be one place that things went wrong, although the appearance when I finished was just as described. You mixed the first stage for two hours, which might have been too long (especially with the extra heat it got), and the second stage for 15 minutes, which was almost certainly too short. This is what I meant in the other message I've just sent, about needing to get a feel for it, and why this isn't a good place to start. If you were more experienced you might have had a better idea of how to translate the mixing instructions for a full-sized batch to the small scale you're using. Maybe it translates direct, maybe not - I don't know how fast your drill stirs it, nor what rate of agitation it gets with that paint stirrer, but, comparatively, neither do you, and that makes it difficult for you. Starting instead with single-stage base and virgin oil, you begin with fewer variables and they're less critical, and it's a logical progression from there. Now you're facing too many variables and you don't have the experience to assess them, and you're more likely to make mistakes anyway because you lack a basis of comparison. I let the mixture settle in an old 2 liter soda bottle for about 6 hours, and it looked exactly like the pictures on the JTF web site. Did you go straight to the wash after six hours? That might not have been long enough. 12 hours or more is better. Clear, golden amber layer on top with dark glycerol on the bottom. I called the test batch a great success and went on to wash my new biodiesel, which is where the problem came up. I put about 1/3 liter water in a clean 2 liter bottle, decanted the biodiesel on top of it, then shook. I probably shook a little vigorously, but with the assumption that the foolproof method would leave me with product which could withstand this type of washing. I'd have stirred it, not very hard, until it was mixed (homogenous), then let it settle. In other
Re: [biofuel] Re: What went wrong?
must not be too thick yer making biofuel! keep it up from peggy who is actully dave Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: What went wrong?
Kevin, Thanks for the help. I suspect that overly vigorous agitation is a big part of the problem. The top layer of what I have does seem to be very slowly clearing, as you predict. Rereading the process on the JTF site, I also notice that they say that if you get less than 100 cc glycerol, you probably have an incomplete reaction. I don't think that I had any more than 60 or 70 cc, which tells me that this was probably another part of the problem. I'm planning to do another test batch this coming weekend, and will just process longer no matter what I think of the color or clarity of what I have after 15 minutes. Since I am brand new to this, I have obviously never seen what the mix is supposed to look like after processing. I am trying to make an educated guess based on a description, and obviously guessed wrong. Thanks again for the reply. The only way that I'll figure this out is with the help of those who have gone before. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Shea [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: liter water in a clean 2 liter bottle, decanted the biodiesel on top of it, then shook. Agitated too vigorously too early in the wash stage is probably the problem as this caused emusions. No need to waste your test batch...let it stand for a month in a dark place and you should see it (almost completely) come back. I did the same thing to my earlier test batches by jetting the water into my 5 gal batches with the garden hose and creating foamy stuff..Opps! . -Kevin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: What went wrong?
Hi Brian Kevin, Thanks for the help. I suspect that overly vigorous agitation is a big part of the problem. The top layer of what I have does seem to be very slowly clearing, as you predict. Try heating it. Not direct heat, use hot water, don't agitate the bd again, try to keep it as-is in its layers. Rereading the process on the JTF site, I also notice that they say that if you get less than 100 cc glycerol, you probably have an incomplete reaction. I don't think that I had any more than 60 or 70 cc, which tells me that this was probably another part of the problem. I'm planning to do another test batch this coming weekend, and will just process longer no matter what I think of the color or clarity of what I have after 15 minutes. Since I am brand new to this, I have obviously never seen what the mix is supposed to look like after processing. I am trying to make an educated guess based on a description, and obviously guessed wrong. Thanks again for the reply. The only way that I'll figure this out is with the help of those who have gone before. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Shea [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: liter water in a clean 2 liter bottle, decanted the biodiesel on top of it, then shook. Agitated too vigorously too early in the wash stage is probably the problem as this caused emusions. No need to waste your test batch...let it stand for a month in a dark place and you should see it (almost completely) come back. I did the same thing to my earlier test batches by jetting the water into my 5 gal batches with the garden hose and creating foamy stuff..Opps! . -Kevin Well, my first test batch is done, and the end result is less than spectacular. Wondering if anyone has any ideas. I completed the second stage as instructed. 1/2 of my methoxide in, mix for 5 minutes, heat to 130 F, add the remaining methoxide and mix hot until nice golden amber. Not amber, straw yellow - some people have questioned that but I don't agree with them, I've found that to be a good indicator. The less reddish it is the better. This only took about 10 minutes, and I continued mixing for a total of 15. Since the instructions say it will take one and a half to two hours, I think this may be one place that things went wrong, although the appearance when I finished was just as described. You mixed the first stage for two hours, which might have been too long (especially with the extra heat it got), and the second stage for 15 minutes, which was almost certainly too short. This is what I meant in the other message I've just sent, about needing to get a feel for it, and why this isn't a good place to start. If you were more experienced you might have had a better idea of how to translate the mixing instructions for a full-sized batch to the small scale you're using. Maybe it translates direct, maybe not - I don't know how fast your drill stirs it, nor what rate of agitation it gets with that paint stirrer, but, comparatively, neither do you, and that makes it difficult for you. Starting instead with single-stage base and virgin oil, you begin with fewer variables and they're less critical, and it's a logical progression from there. Now you're facing too many variables and you don't have the experience to assess them, and you're more likely to make mistakes anyway because you lack a basis of comparison. I let the mixture settle in an old 2 liter soda bottle for about 6 hours, and it looked exactly like the pictures on the JTF web site. Did you go straight to the wash after six hours? That might not have been long enough. 12 hours or more is better. Clear, golden amber layer on top with dark glycerol on the bottom. I called the test batch a great success and went on to wash my new biodiesel, which is where the problem came up. I put about 1/3 liter water in a clean 2 liter bottle, decanted the biodiesel on top of it, then shook. I probably shook a little vigorously, but with the assumption that the foolproof method would leave me with product which could withstand this type of washing. I'd have stirred it, not very hard, until it was mixed (homogenous), then let it settle. In other words, not in a 2 liter bottle, something with a wider mouth. What I have now is a cloudy, murky yellow layer of nearly one liter followed by a guhky layer looking most like old soap scum and then a small amount of cloudy water. Since the middle layer looks like soap scum, I am assuming that is exactly what it is. I assume also that the upper layer is biodiesel with water still in it, and may clear eventually. The bottom layer is obviously water with the water soluble leftovers from the biodiesel process. My take on the problem is that either I did not heat and stir long enough in stage two, overheated in stage one or agitated too vigorously in the wash stage. I think it is probably a combination of not enough processing in stage two and overzealous agitation
[biofuel] Re: What went wrong?
Todd, Thanks for the input. I am planning to try again this weekend, and do exactly what you suggest, adhere to the instructions more precisely. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian, Any other thoughts? Other than going back and adhering to the instructions more precisely? Nope. Not a one. What you apparently have is an incomplete reaction on the base side, leaving you with a compliment of esters and emulsifiers, the latter being unreacted mono- and di-glycerides. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 7:27 AM Subject: [biofuel] What went wrong? Well, my first test batch is done, and the end result is less than spectacular. Wondering if anyone has any ideas. I completed the second stage as instructed. 1/2 of my methoxide in, mix for 5 minutes, heat to 130 F, add the remaining methoxide and mix hot until nice golden amber. This only took about 10 minutes, and I continued mixing for a total of 15. Since the instructions say it will take one and a half to two hours, I think this may be one place that things went wrong, although the appearance when I finished was just as described. I let the mixture settle in an old 2 liter soda bottle for about 6 hours, and it looked exactly like the pictures on the JTF web site. Clear, golden amber layer on top with dark glycerol on the bottom. I called the test batch a great success and went on to wash my new biodiesel, which is where the problem came up. I put about 1/3 liter water in a clean 2 liter bottle, decanted the biodiesel on top of it, then shook. I probably shook a little vigorously, but with the assumption that the foolproof method would leave me with product which could withstand this type of washing. What I have now is a cloudy, murky yellow layer of nearly one liter followed by a guhky layer looking most like old soap scum and then a small amount of cloudy water. Since the middle layer looks like soap scum, I am assuming that is exactly what it is. I assume also that the upper layer is biodiesel with water still in it, and may clear eventually. The bottom layer is obviously water with the water soluble leftovers from the biodiesel process. My take on the problem is that either I did not heat and stir long enough in stage two, overheated in stage one or agitated too vigorously in the wash stage. I think it is probably a combination of not enough processing in stage two and overzealous agitation in washing that caused the problem. Any other thoughts? Brian Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
