Re: [biofuel] minivans and detroit was Re: SUV question -
Very good indeed. On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 12:46 AM, Hakan Falk wrote: > > Robert, > > In Sweden it is a lot of snow and the season from Stockholm > and up can be 6 month. When I learned to drive 45 years ago, > somebody told me "on slippery roads, drive like you have eggs > between feet and pedal and a woman in you arms, no force > and gentle movements". A very good advice that I never forgot > and practice in both situations. > > Hakan > > > At 11:22 PM 2/27/2003 -0800, you wrote: > > >> Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Some days the owners do, of course, need these things, but almost all >>> the ones I saw were empty and the funny thing is, a 4 cylinder >>> turbodiesel got me and 120+ litres of fuel (when I left here), tools, >>> clothing, computer and digital video studio there and back, at temps >>> as >>> low as -15C, and at over 50 mpg (average speed around 100 km/h) >> >> The perceived "need" and the reality are frequently two different >> things. I lived in Terrace, which is in west central B.C. --an area >> that >> receives tremendous quantities of snow--for a little over two years. >> I drove >> around in a rear wheel drive 1985 Pontiac Parisienne through snow and >> ice >> every winter and only got stuck twice. (Both times on a slippery >> incline >> very close to the school where I taught. My students loved to make >> fun of my >> innate "Californian" inability to drive in the snow. . .) In those >> conditions, I kept a candle in the glove box, blankets and a shovel >> in the >> trunk, but never needed four wheel drive. Even on a trip up to >> Cranberry >> Junction during deep winter, all season radials were more than >> sufficient to >> get me around. >> >> My lovely wife had a 2.8 liter 5 speed Camaro at that time. We >> kept a >> pair of cylinder heads in the back of that thing and NEVER got stuck! >> >> Now that I live in the mild climate east of Vancouver, I drive a >> 2.3 >> liter 5 speed Ford Ranger. It's two wheel drive and remarkably good >> in the >> slippery snow we get down here. Of course, it helps to drive >> cautiously in >> inclement weather! (The big four wheel drive trucks and SUVs seem to >> be the >> first ones in the ditch whenever it snows. . .) >> >> The Ranger delivers no better 10 kilometers per liter no matter >> how >> carefully I drive it. Personally, I find this fuel economy pretty >> pathetic, >> given that my propane powered Pontiac with a 5.7 liter V 8 used to >> get better >> than 6 km / liter with an automatic transmission, and it carried >> around >> nearly 1 tonne of additional mass! But the truck is very practical >> and I'm >> having a hard time letting it go. . . (Why buy a car when you can >> have a >> truck???) >> >> Replacing the Ranger with a full sized diesel is an option I've >> considered. But I don't need 4 wheel drive, and the diesel trucks in >> my >> price range are in MUCH rattier condition than my Ranger. To find >> something >> comparable, I'd have to spend over $20 000. I can buy a LOT of >> gasoline for >> that! (Although I don't need anything full sized, I drove a 6.3 >> turbo diesel >> a couple of months ago and LOVED the throttle response--it was like >> my '73 >> Chevelle all over again. . .) >> >> Small trucks with diesels used to be easier to find than they are >> now. >> Personally, I'd like one of those 4 door turbo diesel Rangers built in >> Indonesia! Apparently, however, it's impossible to import them into >> Canada, >> and Ford seems unwilling to build them here. Instead, we get the >> Explorer >> SporTrac, with it's completely USELESS box and ONLY a gasoline engine. >> >> Too bad! >> >> robert luis rabello >> "The Edge of Justice" >> Adventure for Your Mind >> http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] minivans and detroit was Re: SUV question -
We can get right hand drive turbo diesel and diesel vans, pickups and Land Cruisers up here in the Okanagan, all low mileage and nice condition. Kind of pricey for their age, but not abused - 15 years and older, and you can import. I want a double cab Toyota Hilux...not sure about going to the right hand drive though, mostly a concern about passing motorhomes and trucks and not being able to peek out around them easily enough. Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 11:22 PM, robert luis rabello wrote: > > > Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: > >> > >> Some days the owners do, of course, need these things, but almost all >> the ones I saw were empty and the funny thing is, a 4 cylinder >> turbodiesel got me and 120+ litres of fuel (when I left here), tools, >> clothing, computer and digital video studio there and back, at temps >> as >> low as -15C, and at over 50 mpg (average speed around 100 km/h) > > The perceived "need" and the reality are frequently two different > things. I lived in Terrace, which is in west central B.C. --an area > that > receives tremendous quantities of snow--for a little over two years. > I drove > around in a rear wheel drive 1985 Pontiac Parisienne through snow and > ice > every winter and only got stuck twice. (Both times on a slippery > incline > very close to the school where I taught. My students loved to make > fun of my > innate "Californian" inability to drive in the snow. . .) In those > conditions, I kept a candle in the glove box, blankets and a shovel in > the > trunk, but never needed four wheel drive. Even on a trip up to > Cranberry > Junction during deep winter, all season radials were more than > sufficient to > get me around. > > My lovely wife had a 2.8 liter 5 speed Camaro at that time. We > kept a > pair of cylinder heads in the back of that thing and NEVER got stuck! > > Now that I live in the mild climate east of Vancouver, I drive a > 2.3 > liter 5 speed Ford Ranger. It's two wheel drive and remarkably good > in the > slippery snow we get down here. Of course, it helps to drive > cautiously in > inclement weather! (The big four wheel drive trucks and SUVs seem to > be the > first ones in the ditch whenever it snows. . .) > > The Ranger delivers no better 10 kilometers per liter no matter how > carefully I drive it. Personally, I find this fuel economy pretty > pathetic, > given that my propane powered Pontiac with a 5.7 liter V 8 used to get > better > than 6 km / liter with an automatic transmission, and it carried around > nearly 1 tonne of additional mass! But the truck is very practical > and I'm > having a hard time letting it go. . . (Why buy a car when you can > have a > truck???) > > Replacing the Ranger with a full sized diesel is an option I've > considered. But I don't need 4 wheel drive, and the diesel trucks in > my > price range are in MUCH rattier condition than my Ranger. To find > something > comparable, I'd have to spend over $20 000. I can buy a LOT of > gasoline for > that! (Although I don't need anything full sized, I drove a 6.3 turbo > diesel > a couple of months ago and LOVED the throttle response--it was like my > '73 > Chevelle all over again. . .) > > Small trucks with diesels used to be easier to find than they are > now. > Personally, I'd like one of those 4 door turbo diesel Rangers built in > Indonesia! Apparently, however, it's impossible to import them into > Canada, > and Ford seems unwilling to build them here. Instead, we get the > Explorer > SporTrac, with it's completely USELESS box and ONLY a gasoline engine. > > Too bad! > > robert luis rabello > "The Edge of Justice" > Adventure for Your Mind > http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] minivans and detroit was Re: SUV question -
Robert, In Sweden it is a lot of snow and the season from Stockholm and up can be 6 month. When I learned to drive 45 years ago, somebody told me "on slippery roads, drive like you have eggs between feet and pedal and a woman in you arms, no force and gentle movements". A very good advice that I never forgot and practice in both situations. Hakan At 11:22 PM 2/27/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: > > > > > > Some days the owners do, of course, need these things, but almost all > > the ones I saw were empty and the funny thing is, a 4 cylinder > > turbodiesel got me and 120+ litres of fuel (when I left here), tools, > > clothing, computer and digital video studio there and back, at temps as > > low as -15C, and at over 50 mpg (average speed around 100 km/h) > > The perceived "need" and the reality are frequently two different >things. I lived in Terrace, which is in west central B.C. --an area that >receives tremendous quantities of snow--for a little over two years. I drove >around in a rear wheel drive 1985 Pontiac Parisienne through snow and ice >every winter and only got stuck twice. (Both times on a slippery incline >very close to the school where I taught. My students loved to make fun of my >innate "Californian" inability to drive in the snow. . .) In those >conditions, I kept a candle in the glove box, blankets and a shovel in the >trunk, but never needed four wheel drive. Even on a trip up to Cranberry >Junction during deep winter, all season radials were more than sufficient to >get me around. > > My lovely wife had a 2.8 liter 5 speed Camaro at that time. We kept a >pair of cylinder heads in the back of that thing and NEVER got stuck! > > Now that I live in the mild climate east of Vancouver, I drive a 2.3 >liter 5 speed Ford Ranger. It's two wheel drive and remarkably good in the >slippery snow we get down here. Of course, it helps to drive cautiously in >inclement weather! (The big four wheel drive trucks and SUVs seem to be the >first ones in the ditch whenever it snows. . .) > > The Ranger delivers no better 10 kilometers per liter no matter how >carefully I drive it. Personally, I find this fuel economy pretty pathetic, >given that my propane powered Pontiac with a 5.7 liter V 8 used to get better >than 6 km / liter with an automatic transmission, and it carried around >nearly 1 tonne of additional mass! But the truck is very practical and I'm >having a hard time letting it go. . . (Why buy a car when you can have a >truck???) > > Replacing the Ranger with a full sized diesel is an option I've >considered. But I don't need 4 wheel drive, and the diesel trucks in my >price range are in MUCH rattier condition than my Ranger. To find something >comparable, I'd have to spend over $20 000. I can buy a LOT of gasoline for >that! (Although I don't need anything full sized, I drove a 6.3 turbo diesel >a couple of months ago and LOVED the throttle response--it was like my '73 >Chevelle all over again. . .) > > Small trucks with diesels used to be easier to find than they are now. >Personally, I'd like one of those 4 door turbo diesel Rangers built in >Indonesia! Apparently, however, it's impossible to import them into Canada, >and Ford seems unwilling to build them here. Instead, we get the Explorer >SporTrac, with it's completely USELESS box and ONLY a gasoline engine. > > Too bad! > >robert luis rabello >"The Edge of Justice" >Adventure for Your Mind >http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] minivans and detroit was Re: SUV question -
Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: > > Some days the owners do, of course, need these things, but almost all > the ones I saw were empty and the funny thing is, a 4 cylinder > turbodiesel got me and 120+ litres of fuel (when I left here), tools, > clothing, computer and digital video studio there and back, at temps as > low as -15C, and at over 50 mpg (average speed around 100 km/h) The perceived "need" and the reality are frequently two different things. I lived in Terrace, which is in west central B.C. --an area that receives tremendous quantities of snow--for a little over two years. I drove around in a rear wheel drive 1985 Pontiac Parisienne through snow and ice every winter and only got stuck twice. (Both times on a slippery incline very close to the school where I taught. My students loved to make fun of my innate "Californian" inability to drive in the snow. . .) In those conditions, I kept a candle in the glove box, blankets and a shovel in the trunk, but never needed four wheel drive. Even on a trip up to Cranberry Junction during deep winter, all season radials were more than sufficient to get me around. My lovely wife had a 2.8 liter 5 speed Camaro at that time. We kept a pair of cylinder heads in the back of that thing and NEVER got stuck! Now that I live in the mild climate east of Vancouver, I drive a 2.3 liter 5 speed Ford Ranger. It's two wheel drive and remarkably good in the slippery snow we get down here. Of course, it helps to drive cautiously in inclement weather! (The big four wheel drive trucks and SUVs seem to be the first ones in the ditch whenever it snows. . .) The Ranger delivers no better 10 kilometers per liter no matter how carefully I drive it. Personally, I find this fuel economy pretty pathetic, given that my propane powered Pontiac with a 5.7 liter V 8 used to get better than 6 km / liter with an automatic transmission, and it carried around nearly 1 tonne of additional mass! But the truck is very practical and I'm having a hard time letting it go. . . (Why buy a car when you can have a truck???) Replacing the Ranger with a full sized diesel is an option I've considered. But I don't need 4 wheel drive, and the diesel trucks in my price range are in MUCH rattier condition than my Ranger. To find something comparable, I'd have to spend over $20 000. I can buy a LOT of gasoline for that! (Although I don't need anything full sized, I drove a 6.3 turbo diesel a couple of months ago and LOVED the throttle response--it was like my '73 Chevelle all over again. . .) Small trucks with diesels used to be easier to find than they are now. Personally, I'd like one of those 4 door turbo diesel Rangers built in Indonesia! Apparently, however, it's impossible to import them into Canada, and Ford seems unwilling to build them here. Instead, we get the Explorer SporTrac, with it's completely USELESS box and ONLY a gasoline engine. Too bad! robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] minivans and detroit was Re: SUV question -
I'd like to jump in a moment: I just returned last night from a 2300 km filter test /R&D run and climate change presentation in Northern Alberta, through BC and Alberta wilderness and the winter snow. (Some pics on our site later today I hope) This was most definitely in the land of big turbodiesel pickups and gas guzzling SUV's, where people feel they really need them to get around, in their region of trees, coal and oil resource extraction on the biggest scale you can imagine. I hardly saw a car and every time I parked, there was a Cummins, a Duramax or a PowerStroke beside me, left running, BTW, as it the habit in winter - even when it is only about -5C it seems! It's the cool thing to do, apparently to start you Cummins (the noisemakers) about 5AM, and then go back into the motel for about an hour, even though it's been plugged in all night! Wake up everybody, the Cummins is up, you should be too! Some days the owners do, of course, need these things, but almost all the ones I saw were empty and the funny thing is, a 4 cylinder turbodiesel got me and 120+ litres of fuel (when I left here), tools, clothing, computer and digital video studio there and back, at temps as low as -15C, and at over 50 mpg (average speed around 100 km/h) Then this morning, after 16 hours on the road yesterday, and a bit of sleep last night, my kids woke me up and I started up on WVO (long story, and no I did not forget to switch!) and I took them and their backpacks to school in the same vehicle (two teens). We also carry their mountain bikes, snowboards and skis around with a Thule roof rack. Front wheel drive, good winter tires, food and water, some basic tools and spares and you are all set. I was literally out there with the wolves (quick, toss them a jug of WVO!, on the so-called "Scenic Route to Alaska", in February. It's often the overconfident 4x4 SUV drivers that go in the ditch, often on their roofs, around here. Quality? The Jetta is a 91, with 300,000 km on it. Drives like new with a new set of struts just installed, and gets about 60 mpg. Very few rattles, although a few of the spiffy ground effects plastic bits have gone missing on some rough roads over the years, I will admit! It also boasts a very healthy top speed, BTW, of course that was "closed course, professional driver". Anyway, I'll take the Euro-spec Caravan with the turbodiesel, please, or a VW Sharan TDI or Toyota 4x4 turbodiesel vanany of the above can be put in a container and donated, please, (left hand drive preferred) - that will be nicer for future meetings and long trips. Just send a mid-nineties model to Vancouver, someone, and I will pick it up there...the Jetta will wear out one of these days...NOT ( I recently talked to a prospector/TDI owner who had just "retired" his 86 Jetta TD at 1.3 MILLION kilometers, on a head gasket and radiator replacement and regular maintenance. Oh, would I have preferred to have taken a Mercedes, like say the 83 TD I used to have, on this trip? No way. Just my opinion. ;-) Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 01:10 PM, girl_mark_fire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm glad that Thor pointed out the comparison between suv's and the > minivans that preceded them and served the 'same purpose'. > People often think that automotive choice comes down to either buying > a huge SUV versus a Honda Civic- and yeah, if you have 3 kids and a > spouse and occasional friend to drive around, a Civic might not be > the most comfortable vehicle (but that doesn't describe most people's > car use these days). But look at what most suv drivers are doing > most of the time- the same jobs they did in minivans until a few > years ago (plus a lot of jobs they did in Civics- commuting alone). > > Minivans, the popular selling vehicles of 10 years ago, got somewhat > good fuel economy (compared to 8-cylinder SUV's). > > One obvious problem is that many of them weren't built well- but > neither are many of the minivan-like SUV's (the 'cheaper', smaller > SUV's. I haven't driven, say, a Cadillac Escalade or a Hummer of > Mercedes suv so I can't comment on the more expensive ones- but I > absolutely agree with Foltarz' assessment of SUV's being 'luxo junk' > much of the time after having driven my (borrowed) share of Isuzu > Rodeos and jeep Cherokees) > - I imagine they'll have all the same body problems for instance as > cheap american minivans did past a certain age (by the way I'm > partial to minivans as a perfect size utility van). I think that > whatever popular trendy vehicle Detroit is building 'in a hurry' > tends to be poor quality (for a funny look at this problem, look for > a book called Rivethead by Flint autoworker-turned-writer Ben Hamper, > about his experiences building Suburbans in the late 1970's, and why > they were so terrible). In the case of SUV's the quality issue is > masked by
[biofuel] minivans and detroit was Re: SUV question -
I'm glad that Thor pointed out the comparison between suv's and the minivans that preceded them and served the 'same purpose'. People often think that automotive choice comes down to either buying a huge SUV versus a Honda Civic- and yeah, if you have 3 kids and a spouse and occasional friend to drive around, a Civic might not be the most comfortable vehicle (but that doesn't describe most people's car use these days). But look at what most suv drivers are doing most of the time- the same jobs they did in minivans until a few years ago (plus a lot of jobs they did in Civics- commuting alone). Minivans, the popular selling vehicles of 10 years ago, got somewhat good fuel economy (compared to 8-cylinder SUV's). One obvious problem is that many of them weren't built well- but neither are many of the minivan-like SUV's (the 'cheaper', smaller SUV's. I haven't driven, say, a Cadillac Escalade or a Hummer of Mercedes suv so I can't comment on the more expensive ones- but I absolutely agree with Foltarz' assessment of SUV's being 'luxo junk' much of the time after having driven my (borrowed) share of Isuzu Rodeos and jeep Cherokees) - I imagine they'll have all the same body problems for instance as cheap american minivans did past a certain age (by the way I'm partial to minivans as a perfect size utility van). I think that whatever popular trendy vehicle Detroit is building 'in a hurry' tends to be poor quality (for a funny look at this problem, look for a book called Rivethead by Flint autoworker-turned-writer Ben Hamper, about his experiences building Suburbans in the late 1970's, and why they were so terrible). In the case of SUV's the quality issue is masked by the large engine (they MIGHT last a little longer than a 4- cylinder Dodge minivan engine- but I wouldn't bank on it) mark > > Fact: SUVs are not the safest cars out there; > minivans are, and they have more room, get better > mileage, and cost less than SUVs. But minivans are > not "cool" which tells me that people are thinking > about styling and image (the advertising influence) > and not about economics or practicality. Also, most > people are bent on ownership versus receiving a flow > of services from an automobile. Let me explain. > > I live in Seattle, where it seems that every other > vehicle is an SUV or a truck. People insist they need > a 4wd vehicle. But we have mild winters, with little > snow to speak of, and the one time a year it does snow > you stay at home since Seattle is full of hills and > people here don't know how to drive in snow anyway. > So 2 inches shuts everything down. Now a lot of > people I know who own SUVs claim that they need them > to go to the mountains, to go skiing, etc etc. > However, most ski areas you can get to just fine with > a front wheel drive car. And who's really going to > take a $55,000 Escalade or Navigator or Mercedes > off-road? But let's assume that they do indeed go > somewhere where an *only* an SUV can go. How often is > that? 2, 3 times a year at most? So they purchase an > SUV ostensibly for those rare occasions, and the other > 355 days they commute in a gas guzzling behemoth. If > instead they had an efficient car for their daily > needs, they could take all that money they save in > capital and operating costs (licensing, fuel, > insurance) and rent an SUV for the few times they need > it, and have cash left over. Would you go out and buy > a dumptruck if you needed to haul a load of dirt, and > then drive it to work every day? But, people are > taught by advertising and by example to think in terms > of ownership, not in flows of services. > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
