[biofuels-biz] Re: cost of gasoline, ethanol mixture @ 76 stations

[murdoch]

One of the ideas mentioned in the oft-mentioned Taken-for-a-Ride by Doyle is
that Bush Sr. did seem somewhat to support Ethanol, as has seemingly Bush Jr.
While ethanol proponents will argue that Political Support of "Big Ethanol" does
not amount to competent support of ethanol in general, I think that generally
the Bushes seem to at least want to support ethanol to the extent they can win
Midwestern votes.  I don't know how to guage whether they've been good
supporters of the general biofuel cause.  I personally would initially say no.

A major theme in Doyle's book is that in the various stages of the clean air
wars, the Oil Companies and Refiners and auto companies would be under years of
pressure to improve things, would constantly cry that they were being treated
unfairly and the technology could not be forced, and so on, and then, lo and
behold at the 11th hour they'd come out that indeed they might be able to come
out with some previously non-doable or never-mentioned-thing, like Reformulated
Gas.  I mention it here because in my view the Oil company arguments that they
would be better off with RFG rather than oxygenated gasoline were another
example of this last-minute "we have a *better* solution" idea.  This idea of
mine is mitigated by a conversation I had with an official who as part of a team
on behalf of Cal. taxpayers had flown to the Midwest, tried to research things,
etc.  

My extremely imperfect recollection is that his belief (not the official belief
of the team, just his informal comments to me) was that in some ways, if clean
air was the goal, that there is an argument for both RFG or Ethanol, but that
ethanol had limited value and was, in his words, an older technology.  

I, personally, think it was *extremely* important to get some steady inclusion
of ethanol in our gasoline.  The oil refiners and companies have it good enough.
Let them sell us some of this other much-touted stuff, and let's see how it
goes.  So far, it seems like it is going *much* more smoothly than we were all
lead to believe with the doomsday predictions of the WSPA et. al. for the damage
this would supposedly cause our pocketbooks.  There was also some very obscure
claim I heard once as to supposed bad effects to the air from ethanol mixture
use, and I have heard nothing locally recently about setbacks in progress toward
clean air from ethanol or otherwise.  So, everything seems to be going pretty
well for some ethanol mixture use in one of the world's more watched driving
markets.  At least, if anything is going awry, it has not yet been covered that
I'm aware.

I'd like to keep my eye out for confirmation as to your statements about 76
using 15% and the other gasoline stations staying with the end-of-2003
guidelines.  The 76 use I do believe, I was just keeping in mind that their pump
stickers say it "might" include ethanol.

I was disappointed to still see the MTBE stickers on one of the other big
stations I was recently in.  Don't recall which company it was.



On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:55:28 -, you wrote:

>Union 76 were the first California company to switch from MTBE to 
>Ethanol (I believe that they use 15% ethanol).  By now most other 
>companies have also switched and the rest will be using ethanol as 
>their oxygenate by the end of this year.
>
>California asked for a waiver from using an oxygenate as gasoline can 
>be produced that burns just a cleanly without it.  However, the Bush 
>administration said no.  In this case I think I agree as this does 
>also help reduce dependence on foreign oil.


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[biofuels-biz] Re: cost of gasoline

[murdoch]

>WOW!! Just saw diesel #2 at the local pump for $1.99  Now biodiesel IS
>competitive, without subsidies!!

Then that's news.  Let's spread the word.


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: cost

[Pedro M.]

A letter recieve by me : 
 
>-- Want gasoline prices to come down?  We need to take some 
intelligent,>united action.>>> Phillip Hollsworth, 
offered this good idea:>>This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the 
"don't buy gas on a certain day"campaign>that was going around last 
April or May! The oil companies just laughed at>that because they knew we 
wouldn't continue to "hurt" ourselves by refusing>to buy gas. It was more 
of an inconvenience to us than it was a problem 
for>them.>>BUT, whoever thought of this idea, has come up 
with a plan that can really>work.  Please read it and join with 
us!>> By now you're probably thinking gasoline priced at about 
$1.50 is super> cheap. Me too! It is currently $1.97 for regular unleaded 
in my town. Now>that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have 
conditioned us to thinkthat>the cost of a gallon of gas is CHEAP at 
$1.50- $1.75, we need to take>aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS 
control the marketplacenot>sellers.>> With the price of 
gasoline going up more each day, we consumers need to>take action. The 
only way we are going to see the price of gas come down isif>we hit 
someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their gas!  And we 
cando> that WITHOUT hurting ourselves.  
How?>>Since we all rely on our cars, we can't just stop buying 
gas.  But we CAN>have an impact on gas prices if we all act together 
to force a price war.>>Here's the idea:>> For the 
rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the 
twobiggest>companies (which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL.  If 
they are not sellingany> gas, they will be inclined to reduce their 
prices. If they reduce their>prices, the other companies will have to 
follow suit.>> But to have an impact, we need to reach literally 
millions of Exxon and>Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do!!  
Now, don't wimp out on me at>this point...keep reading and I'll explain 
how simple it is to reachmillions>of people!!>> I am 
sending this note to about thirty people.  If each of you send it 
to>at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300) ... and those 300 send it to at 
least ten>more (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the time the message 
reaches the>sixth>generation of people, we will have reached over 
THREE MILLION consumers!>> If those three million get excited and 
pass this on to ten friends each,> then 30 million people will have been 
contacted!  If it goes one level> further, you guessed it. THREE 
HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!>PLEASE HOLD OUT 
UNTIL THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO THE $1.30 RANGE AND KEEP> THEM 
DOWN.  THIS CAN REALLY WORK.>>If you're not outraged by what 
the oil companies are doing to us, go see> your doctor, you may be 
suffering from terminal 
apathy!>    
===\>  
W I L L I A M    D O L T O N    
\>(   
Technology Education Specialist   \>(   645-1902 
(office)   LOWER 
MERION SCHOOL DISTRICT   )>(   645-1994 
(fax) 
301 Montgomery Avenue   )> \   353-6716 
(home) 
Ardmore, PA  19003   />  
\  
/>   
\\  
//>    
\== [EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
===/






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[biofuels-biz] Re: cost

[david_design]

Hi David

Watch out for (1) environmental protection, (2) workplace safety 
officers and (3) insurance issues. In some places town planning will 
be in in it too.

If (1) and (2) aren't happy, (3) won't be interested :(

But if you set up a small operation hidden away and be careful to 
dispose byproducts responsibly you might get away with it. 

Trouble is sooner or later you'll want to expand and then they'll 
want to see the professional design drawings that show the plant is 
safe etc. This really shoves up the front end costs.

D

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "david  e  cruse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> 
> Thanks for the info. So far these are the costs that I`ve
> been able to come up with :
> Methanol= $2.25 gal delivered  KOH= .89cents lb
> Oil= free or can get collection fee
> 
> The site costs---unknown at this point
> Marketing costs---unknown
> Vehicle---have small Chevy pickup truck
> 250gal collection tank with transfer pump for truck= $750.US
> Plant costs= $2,500.US approx.
> Misc. Chems.,test equip,filters,quench acid,etc.---unknown
> Scale---have lab grade Ohaus scale
> Centrifuge---would like to have one later !
> Package generator for process heat & electricity---variable
> 
> That`s about as much as I can figure at this point, which
> is a lot more info than I started with, thanks for your input.
> Glad to have you on board.
> David Cruse,Atlanta,Ga.
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 11:03 AM
> Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: cost
> 
> 
> METHANOL: £80 per barrel with recovery you'll use 12.5% per litre of
> ester produced. Cheaper by the tonne, but you'll need storage.
> OIL: varies from the bare cost of collection to £150/tonne depending
> on your source.
> CHEMICALS: Fraction of a penny per litre. NaOH is about £1.30 per 
kg.
> You'll probably use about 5g per litre of oil
> 
> Then you add in:
> site costs
> plant costs (see my question about this)
> waste disposal
> labour
> vehicles
> insurance
> marketing
> etc
> 
> At least the energy is cheap, you run a package generator on FFA to
> provide electricity and process heat. Waste disposal should also be
> easy enough. Most can be sold as low grade fuel or composted.
> 
> Dave
> 
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "david  e  cruse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >No specific amount, just bottom line cost
> > on any amount produced.
> >
> Sponsor:
> >   Biofuels at Journey to Forever
> >   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >   Biofuel at WebConX
> >   http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
> >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> 
> 
> Biofuels at Journey to Forever
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Biofuel at WebConX
> http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
> 
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Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: cost

[david e cruse]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info. So far these are the costs that I`ve
been able to come up with :
Methanol= $2.25 gal delivered  KOH= .89cents lb
Oil= free or can get collection fee

The site costs---unknown at this point
Marketing costs---unknown
Vehicle---have small Chevy pickup truck
250gal collection tank with transfer pump for truck= $750.US
Plant costs= $2,500.US approx.
Misc. Chems.,test equip,filters,quench acid,etc.---unknown
Scale---have lab grade Ohaus scale
Centrifuge---would like to have one later !
Package generator for process heat & electricity---variable

That`s about as much as I can figure at this point, which
is a lot more info than I started with, thanks for your input.
Glad to have you on board.
David Cruse,Atlanta,Ga.
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 11:03 AM
Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: cost


METHANOL: £80 per barrel with recovery you'll use 12.5% per litre of
ester produced. Cheaper by the tonne, but you'll need storage.
OIL: varies from the bare cost of collection to £150/tonne depending
on your source.
CHEMICALS: Fraction of a penny per litre. NaOH is about £1.30 per kg.
You'll probably use about 5g per litre of oil

Then you add in:
site costs
plant costs (see my question about this)
waste disposal
labour
vehicles
insurance
marketing
etc

At least the energy is cheap, you run a package generator on FFA to
provide electricity and process heat. Waste disposal should also be
easy enough. Most can be sold as low grade fuel or composted.

Dave

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "david  e  cruse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>No specific amount, just bottom line cost
> on any amount produced.
>
Sponsor:
>   Biofuels at Journey to Forever
>   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>   Biofuel at WebConX
>   http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.


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[biofuels-biz] Re: cost

[david_design]

METHANOL: £80 per barrel with recovery you'll use 12.5% per litre of 
ester produced. Cheaper by the tonne, but you'll need storage.
OIL: varies from the bare cost of collection to £150/tonne depending 
on your source.
CHEMICALS: Fraction of a penny per litre. NaOH is about £1.30 per kg. 
You'll probably use about 5g per litre of oil

Then you add in: 
site costs
plant costs (see my question about this)
waste disposal
labour
vehicles
insurance
marketing
etc

At least the energy is cheap, you run a package generator on FFA to 
provide electricity and process heat. Waste disposal should also be 
easy enough. Most can be sold as low grade fuel or composted.

Dave

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "david  e  cruse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>No specific amount, just bottom line cost
> on any amount produced.
> 
Sponsor:
>   Biofuels at Journey to Forever
>   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>   Biofuel at WebConX
>   http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: cost

[goat industries]

dear Huseyin TURCAN
  This was something like what we imagined . mixing veg oil and methanol
in a long cylinder with some kind of multi-staging set-up so that the mix is
pumped thru continuously. I have been playing around with some ideas on
autoCAD and may make a prototype in a few months time, in the meantime will
look at all relevent articles/catalogues ... thanks for your interest  
paddy
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 12:44 PM
Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: cost


> Dear Biodieselers,
>
> From the cataloques and web sites of some lab. equipment companies i
> read about pipe , tube and sanitary mixers which enable the mixing of
> slurries in a pipe, while pumping.
>
> What i want to learn from you if it is possible to get continous
> biodiesel process by the help of these kind of mixers and reduce the
> cost.
>
> Here is the web site of Cole parmer from where you can get detailed
> information about mixers.
>
> http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/0102_pdf/U-1066_67.PDF
>
>
>
> http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?
> cls=3224&par=3129,3219,3220&cat=1
>
>
> http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?
> sku=&cls=&par=3129,3219,3220&cat=1&sch=242&sel=0466828&lstBool=true
>
>
> Best Regards
>
> Huseyin TURCAN
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "goat industries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >   Has anybody got any ideas or designs for more efficient mixers
> fro large scale production? I was thinking of some kind of multi-
> stage mixer in smaller modules to decrease mixing times  ... paddy
>
>
> Biofuels at Journey to Forever
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Biofuel at WebConX
> http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: cost

[Mauro Knudsen]

Hello Huseyin,

I see the address. I don«t know if some body tried
with this equipment, but I know some one that designed
reactor like that, I think that is VERY INTERESTING.
Look at this: 

http://www.cheng.cam.ac.uk/groups/polymer/Main_research.html

And tell me, what you think?

Mauro Ariel Knudsen.

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi—: > Dear Biodieselers,
> 
> From the cataloques and web sites of some lab.
> equipment companies i 
> read about pipe , tube and sanitary mixers which
> enable the mixing of 
> slurries in a pipe, while pumping. 
> 
> What i want to learn from you if it is possible to
> get continous 
> biodiesel process by the help of these kind of
> mixers and reduce the 
> cost.
> 
> Here is the web site of Cole parmer from where you
> can get detailed 
> information about mixers.
> 
>
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/0102_pdf/U-1066_67.PDF
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?
> cls=3224&par=3129,3219,3220&cat=1
> 
> 
> http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?
>
sku=&cls=&par=3129,3219,3220&cat=1&sch=242&sel=0466828&lstBool=true
> 
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Huseyin TURCAN
> 
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "goat industries"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >   Has anybody got any ideas or designs for more
> efficient mixers 
> fro large scale production? I was thinking of some
> kind of multi-
> stage mixer in smaller modules to decrease mixing
> times  ... paddy
> 
> 
> Biofuels at Journey to Forever
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Biofuel at WebConX
> http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


_
ÀLo probaste?
Correo gratis y para toda la vida en http://correo.yahoo.com.ar

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[biofuels-biz] Re: cost

[hturcan]

Dear Biodieselers,

>From the cataloques and web sites of some lab. equipment companies i 
read about pipe , tube and sanitary mixers which enable the mixing of 
slurries in a pipe, while pumping. 

What i want to learn from you if it is possible to get continous 
biodiesel process by the help of these kind of mixers and reduce the 
cost.

Here is the web site of Cole parmer from where you can get detailed 
information about mixers.

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/0102_pdf/U-1066_67.PDF



http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?
cls=3224&par=3129,3219,3220&cat=1


http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?
sku=&cls=&par=3129,3219,3220&cat=1&sch=242&sel=0466828&lstBool=true


Best Regards

Huseyin TURCAN

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "goat industries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   Has anybody got any ideas or designs for more efficient mixers 
fro large scale production? I was thinking of some kind of multi-
stage mixer in smaller modules to decrease mixing times  ... paddy


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