Re: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions
Greg have you checked out IH8MUD.com ? If you have not checked it out yet
it is a pretty good place for us cruiser heads to go and ask questions
and like this list, you will get answers from around the world. Is your
motor the 3B ? I am getting ready to install a 12-HT into a 83 FJ-45 LW
}:-) I was going to use a 5 speed with it but the truck I will be getting
comes with a compound low 4 speed and I am thinking I will be happier
with the 4 speed for what I will be going to use it for. Go ask the folks
on IH8MUD and tell us what they think can be done. {:-) Brian K.
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Re: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions
I have started nosing around IH8MUD the other day, not much time, for anything
serious, yet.
Yes, it is a 3B, I have been thinking of trying to put a 1HZ ( it has more HP
and torque ), in when I have the money, it is supposed to breath fine to over
7000 ft ( and then putting a turbo on it, when I have more money ). I would
like to stick with the 5 sp, as most of what I do is mixed City and Hwy, for
the rest, like pulling stumps, I put it in 4W Low, and it has done fine ( as
long as I give the roots a little time to rot some LOL ) I bet at sea level,
with it in 4W Low, in first gear, and with the right traction, I could scale
some serious hills. LOL
Greg H.
- Original Message -
From: Brian Kelly
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 17:31
Subject: Re: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions
Greg have you checked out IH8MUD.com ? If you have not checked it out yet
it is a pretty good place for us cruiser heads to go and ask questions
and like this list, you will get answers from around the world. Is your
motor the 3B ? I am getting ready to install a 12-HT into a 83 FJ-45 LW
}:-) I was going to use a 5 speed with it but the truck I will be getting
comes with a compound low 4 speed and I am thinking I will be happier
with the 4 speed for what I will be going to use it for. Go ask the folks
on IH8MUD and tell us what they think can be done. {:-) Brian K.
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuels list archives:
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Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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Re: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions
Here is my understanding of the issues surrounding Diesel engines when used at altitude. A few years ago I took a trip in the mountains in Bolivia, which involved being driven through some very spectacular mountain scenary. At one point we were climbing up a hill and I was very aware that the vehicle seemed to have very little power - not like it had been the previous day. I hadn't realised until then that we were at approximately 5000m (yes, metres not feet!) of altitude, and so I now had reason to think about the whole issue of engines, turbochargers and altitude. At the end of the day it's all about how much oxygen you can get into the cylinder. If you turbocharge the engine, you get more, and if you're at altitude, you get less. If you use a turbocharger at altitude, the two effects partially cancel each other out. But basically, for a given engine and a given fuel, you will always get less power at higher altitude than at sea level, for this reason. Changing fuel will not be able to 'counteract' the altitude, nor will fitting a turbocharger - you will only get the same benefits you would get anyway at sea level. (These may of course prove to be useful benefits at high altitude if the engine would otherwise be underpowered, for example). Of course, a consequence of less oxygen in the cylinder is that the maximum amount of fuel you can burn will be less (this is why you get less power!). Depending on how sophisticated your injection system is, it may not be aware of the fact that there is less oxygen, and may pump too much fuel - with the result that you get lots of soot and incomplete combustion. If your injection system does not know about the altitude, you may be able to adjust it to reduce the maximum fuel charge it delivers. Alternatively, if you don't press the accelerator pedal so far you will reduce the fuel delivered, hence reducing the soot. The only way to get lots of power at high altitude is to fit a bigger engine to compensate. This will then be seriously overpowered when used at sea level. This is one of the drawbacks of internal combustion engines, and they generally need to be set up correctly for the altitude they will be driving at. I'm not an expert on fuel injection systems, but I wouldn't be surprised if modern systems sold in mountainous regions had a means of automatically reducing the maximum fuel delivery when at altitude. As an aside, can anyone tell me what the air pressure is at 5000m? There were some volcanic steam vents in this area and I was surprised that I could put my hand in the steam without it scalding - I guess this means that the water was boiling at around 50-60 degrees, rather than 100. Hope this helps, Donald --- Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is a HP issue as well. If I can increase the HP, I can lean it out a little, so that I don't get as much soot. The Diesel engine is naturally aspirated engine, it only has a compression near 14 ( normal for this engine type ), with the thin air (above 5000 ft ), and lower O2 of the altitude - so, the combination of natural aspiration, low compression, thin air, and lower O2 is a killer no matter what fuel I use. I actually was talking to a State Diesel Emissions Tech, and he liked BioDiesel, but, where it can be found in the state, it is only a BD20 blend, and he didn't think that BD100, would solve my issues even if I could get some ( or had the ability to make it - still looking for parts and a good source of oil ) I have already lost 15% to 25% of the rated HP ( 98 HP at sea level ), even with the injectors near full open ( or is it the metering pump that measures how much fuel is injected? ). So I'm trying to figure out low cost ways of raising the O2 levels to kill the soot, or raising the HP so I can cut lean out the fuel to kill the soot levels. I'm getting about 20 mpg, for my Land Cruiser as it is, which is not bad at all for it's age ( 1985 model ), it's the engine model that is causing the issues, because it just does not breath well over 3000 ft. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Christopher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 16:28 Subject: RE: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions Hi Greg: If you try biodiesel you'll get far less soot. regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Greg Harbican [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 3:06 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions Turbocharging will cause steeper emissions requirements ( even less soot allowable ). All I have is a naturally aspirated engine, putting a turbo on it, will cost almost as much as the Land Cruiser itself, and I don't have any near that kind of money. The cost to gain ratio is too high, the turbo's for the engine would not give all that big a difference, in the horsepower
Re: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions
This is an old 1985 diesel engine. With all the checking I have done on it ( not to mention all the parts I have had to order ), I think that I would have found out if it had any kind of altitude compensating fuel injection system. One thing that someone on another list came up with, was an Ethanol mist into the intake manifold. The thought was that it would evaporate, cooling and make the air more dense and add O2 at the same time. It has it's own set of problems, but, it's one of the bester ideas I have come across. You might try: http://wahiduddin.net/calc/index.htm It has some links to altitude / air density calculators, including one for engines. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Donald Allwright To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 09:28 Subject: Re: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions As an aside, can anyone tell me what the air pressure is at 5000m? There were some volcanic steam vents in this area and I was surprised that I could put my hand in the steam without it scalding - I guess this means that the water was boiling at around 50-60 degrees, rather than 100. Hope this helps, Donald [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions
Hi Greg: If you try biodiesel you'll get far less soot. regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Greg Harbican [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 3:06 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions Turbocharging will cause steeper emissions requirements ( even less soot allowable ). All I have is a naturally aspirated engine, putting a turbo on it, will cost almost as much as the Land Cruiser itself, and I don't have any near that kind of money. The cost to gain ratio is too high, the turbo's for the engine would not give all that big a difference, in the horsepower, only an effective increase of 15-25 HP or so. Funny thing, last year, it didn't have a problem at all, passing emissions. The diesel emissions around here are geared for the larger engines or newer engines with higher HP, that can handle the altitude. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Derek Sceats To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 10:41 Subject: RE: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions Have you taken steps to improve the intake system? Is your engine turbocharged (preferably with an intercooler)? This would help get more air into the system. Just my 2 cents worth. Derek -Original Message- From: Greg Harbican [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 9:20 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] High altatude diesel issues emmisions One of the problems I have is I have too much soot in the emissions and still retaining the horsepower of my Land Cruiser. The issue seams to be with the lack of O2 at the higher altitude, so increasing the amount of fuel to the injectors would not solve the problems ( in fact it would make my mileage worse ). Would leaving the some of methanol in or adding more help, since it is one of the additives that increase the O2 content of the fuel ( so I have heard )? I was also wondering if it would help in the winter, reducing the amount gelling or otherwise make the fuel easier to ignite in the cold? Greg H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions
Turbocharging will cause steeper emissions requirements ( even less soot allowable ). All I have is a naturally aspirated engine, putting a turbo on it, will cost almost as much as the Land Cruiser itself, and I don't have any near that kind of money. The cost to gain ratio is too high, the turbo's for the engine would not give all that big a difference, in the horsepower, only an effective increase of 15-25 HP or so. Funny thing, last year, it didn't have a problem at all, passing emissions. The diesel emissions around here are geared for the larger engines or newer engines with higher HP, that can handle the altitude. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Derek Sceats To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 10:41 Subject: RE: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions Have you taken steps to improve the intake system? Is your engine turbocharged (preferably with an intercooler)? This would help get more air into the system. Just my 2 cents worth. Derek -Original Message- From: Greg Harbican [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 9:20 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] High altatude diesel issues emmisions One of the problems I have is I have too much soot in the emissions and still retaining the horsepower of my Land Cruiser. The issue seams to be with the lack of O2 at the higher altitude, so increasing the amount of fuel to the injectors would not solve the problems ( in fact it would make my mileage worse ). Would leaving the some of methanol in or adding more help, since it is one of the additives that increase the O2 content of the fuel ( so I have heard )? I was also wondering if it would help in the winter, reducing the amount gelling or otherwise make the fuel easier to ignite in the cold? Greg H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] High altitude diesel issues emissions
Have you taken steps to improve the intake system? Is your engine turbocharged (preferably with an intercooler)? This would help get more air into the system. Just my 2 cents worth. Derek -Original Message- From: Greg Harbican [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 9:20 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] High altatude diesel issues emmisions One of the problems I have is I have too much soot in the emissions and still retaining the horsepower of my Land Cruiser. The issue seams to be with the lack of O2 at the higher altitude, so increasing the amount of fuel to the injectors would not solve the problems ( in fact it would make my mileage worse ). Would leaving the some of methanol in or adding more help, since it is one of the additives that increase the O2 content of the fuel ( so I have heard )? I was also wondering if it would help in the winter, reducing the amount gelling or otherwise make the fuel easier to ignite in the cold? Greg H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
