Re: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war

[balaji]

Hello Craig,

- Original Message -
From: "craig reece" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 6:38 AM
Subject: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war


Hakan,

You wrote:

>What's interesting in Ryan's post is the assumption that colonizing
>what is now the United States is seen as being the only way anyone
<(other than the former inhabitants, that is) could've possibly
>"directly benefitted." That is, there is apparently no way to share the
>resources of a place with the "former owners" in a way that benefits
>both them and the colonizing power. While I'd agree that we have no
>good model or historical precedent for such a thing, that shouldn't
>mean we can't recognize the horror that was the colonial experience for
>those who were colonized.

It is interesting to compare the circumstance and the consequence of
colonisation of the Indias and the Americas.
We have greater India (comprising present day Bangladesh, India and
Pakistan) which was a largely British Colony for nearly two centuries, the
same duration it took the Red Indian tribes to be subjugated, decimated and
destroyed.

We also had our unfair share of colonists - Portuguese in Goa, Daman & Diu
(almost as brutal as the Spanish) the French (more intolerant but less
brutal) in Pondicherry, Yanam & Mahe and the least disruptive Dutch (or was
it the Danish) in Tranquebar. The British were most exploitatitve of the
natives in economic terms. We also had many false treaties written with the
eye on the main chance just as Indian Chiefs were cheated by men who entered
into troth with no intention of keeping it the next morn. The rulers of the
many princely states that fractured our country were likewise played one
against the other as it happened with our Red cousins in distress.

The cultural differences were siginifcant. What the British saw in India was
a higly stratified society with large populations in towns that were
centuries old.  They were struck by the  grand iniquitous opulence and
decadent lifetyle of rajahs and the Mughals. They could understand the
urbane sophistication and Byzantine intrigues of the ministers in court. In
fact the courtiers of
the British crown must have felt completely at ease in such surroundings.
Besides, for most of them, India was a temporary though prolonged posting
from which they could always return home. Many of the early British school
of Indology got lost in its other wordly philosophy.

The Red Indian tribes at least in North America were hunter gatherers and
largely nomadic. Their close to nature lifestyle was a ready lure for the
settlers, who found little competition in such a vast land. They also had no
home to return to, having burnt their bridges.

USA in 1700- 1850 was the Wild West, raw frontier country being newly
settled,
where might was right and nobody present to check the wrong doing except
kangaroo courts by roving circuit judges and lynch mobs. I think it is the
lack of a judicial infrastructure that did the native tribes in. That and
the initial struggle to survive and the growing greed of men.

The British of course exploited the natives to the hilt and even destroyed
the indigenous indigo and muslin industry among others as they posed market
threats to Britain. Colonisation was not however an unmitigated disaster for
India and had many positives. An upright and honest judicial system that
continued to dispense humane justice in spite of the many black laws enacted
by the administration. The many voices of conscience from Britain that spoke
up for the natives. The excellent education system which was mostly secular
with little attempt at religious proselytisation. The basic railroad that
has mushroomed
into the largest in the world.

I think it had partly to do with the British sense of justice and fairplay
(it wasn't cricket) and the rule of law most of them abided by back in
Britain. That's possibly why slave trading initiated by the British in the
Americas,
was abolished in 1807, long before it happened in the USA.

Regards.

balaji





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Re: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war

[Hakan Falk]

Craig,

I do not really think I wrote that, it was a part of what I responded to. 
The history is full of colonizing and ruff or less ruff colonizers, I wish 
it should however not be a modern event. It is a lot of wars today, mostly 
civil ones, a few that occupy and those should not be accepted. To occupy, 
suppress and kill the inhabitants, should not be an activity by democratic 
states. Intervention in conflicts, should be the sole responsibility of 
United Nations, it is the only way to police the behaviors of countries and 
anything else is as barbaric, as the barbarism that we do want to stop.

Hakan


At 03:08 17/05/2004, you wrote:
>Hakan,
>
>You wrote:
>
>What's interesting in Ryan's post is the assumption that colonizing
>what is now the United States is seen as being the only way anyone
>(other than the former inhabitants, that is) could've possibly
>"directly benefitted." That is, there is apparently no way to share the
>resources of a place with the "former owners" in a way that benefits
>both them and the colonizing power. While I'd agree that we have no
>good model or historical precedent for such a thing, that shouldn't
>mean we can't recognize the horror that was the colonial experience for
>those who were colonized.
>
>I once heard James Fallows, the former Asian Bureau chief for the
>Washington Post, interviewed on National Publc Radio, and he was
>ranking the major colonizing nations in order from most brutal (Spain,
>in his opinion) to least (the Dutch) but concluded by saying that of
>all the countries in Asia, the country with the "sweetest people" were
>the Thais, who'd never been colonized.
>
>
>On May 16, 2004, at 5:47 PM, Hakan Falk wrote:
>
> >
> >  At 00:19 17/05/2004, you wrote:
> >  >OK, enough already.  I won't make the same mistake again and post
> > MHOs on
> >  >this list.  How any of you can sit there and say you have not
> > directly
> >  >benefited from the colonization of the land that now makes up the
> > USA is
> >  >beyond me, but OK.  Now, shall we get back to biofuels?
> >  >
> >  >Thank you,
> >  >
> >  >Ryan
> >
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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Re: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war

[Appal Energy]

Ryan,

I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

You say that you "won't make the same mistake again." But you just did.

Your idea of "benefit" appears to be completely void of the other side of
the equation..., you know..., the side that begins with oppression, murder
and theft..., the side of the equation that exists so that your side of the
quation can be heaped so mightily high.

And I'll ask again, "Who the hell are you or anyone else to say that what
exists today is somehow a brighter and better version in comparison to what
could have been had humanity, equity and empathy been the rules of the day
in any historical period?"

What it sounds more like is that you're comfortable with where you are and
since you don't have what could have been and/or are lacking in the capacity
to comprehend it, you're perfectly willing to discount it and justify it
away in fits of salving rationalization as being far less important than the
consequences that you presently harvest and deem "benefit."

Why I don't know. But it comes off as very shallow, callous and
incapacitating for those whom you inflict such narrow thought upon.

Chances are more than good that many of your fellow humans would appreciate
it were you to cease.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Ryan Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 5:19 PM
Subject: RE: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war


> OK, enough already.  I won't make the same mistake again and post MHOs on
> this list.  How any of you can sit there and say you have not directly
> benefited from the colonization of the land that now makes up the USA is
> beyond me, but OK.  Now, shall we get back to biofuels?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ryan
>   -Original Message-
>   From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 6:41 PM
>   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: RE: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war
>
>
>
>   Dermot,
>
>   The problem is that Ryan is a product of Hollywood history and that he
>   must have slept in school. It is an overwhelming task to answer his
short
>   posting, that is so efficient in showing the total lack of knowledge in
> facts
>   and history. I was about to respond, but discovered that it would take
> well
>   over 20 pages, to correct only the few statements he did. At the moment,
>   I do not have the energy to respond to a caricature of Americans, it is
so
>   many of them that have education and knowledge anyway, so why bother. .
>
>   Maybe Noam Chomsky would help, but it should be complemented by
>   some basic reading of history books.
>
>   Hakan
>
>
>   At 20:51 15/05/2004, you wrote:
>   >Hi Ryan,
>   >
>   >Where do you get your news/views from? Fox News!
>   >I don't know where to start in correcting the inaccuracies in your
>   >statements, nor do I have the time.
>   >I think the best thing you could do would be to read almost any book by
> Noam
>   >Chomsky (What Uncle Sam Really Wants or Deterring Democracy)about the
way
>   >America runs the world.
>   >Did you never hear of the American overthrow of democratically elected
>   >governments in Chile and Guatemala and Iran?
>   >
>   >Regards
>   >Dermot
>   >
>   >-Original Message-
>   >From: Ryan Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   >Sent: 14 May 2004 09:22
>   >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>   >Subject: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war
>   >
>   >Hey Todd et al, let's not make this personal, did you perhaps not see
my
>   >":)?".  I was merely saying that we have all benefited in the long run
> from
>   >the genocide that happened in North America in the past.  One cannot
> judge
>   >history by modern standards, that's History 101!  America is
> single-handedly
>   >the most innovative populace the world has ever known period.  Look
> around
>   >you, the technology our democracy and free markets have produced and
>   >continue to produce have saved countless more lives, and provided for
> even
>   >more than were lost in the settling of this land.  We are all
benefiting
>   >from this, our life expectancy is much higher than even two generations
> ago,
>   >and our quality of life is unimaginable to those in the past.  Do you
> like
>   >your medicine?  Your efficient, convenient way of life?  Your
> entertainment,
>   >refrigerator, how about your computer, it's software and the Internet?
> Have
>   >you ever used a phone, or turned on a light, or read a newspaper, or
>   >wondered about the mysteries of 

RE: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war

[Hakan Falk]

Ryan,

The majority of the list members are not from US, so I do not really
think that you would want an answer on this question. LOL

Hakan


At 00:19 17/05/2004, you wrote:
>OK, enough already.  I won't make the same mistake again and post MHOs on
>this list.  How any of you can sit there and say you have not directly
>benefited from the colonization of the land that now makes up the USA is
>beyond me, but OK.  Now, shall we get back to biofuels?
>
>Thank you,
>
>Ryan
>   -Original Message-
>   From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 6:41 PM
>   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: RE: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war
>
>
>
>   Dermot,
>
>   The problem is that Ryan is a product of Hollywood history and that he
>   must have slept in school. It is an overwhelming task to answer his short
>   posting, that is so efficient in showing the total lack of knowledge in
>facts
>   and history. I was about to respond, but discovered that it would take
>well
>   over 20 pages, to correct only the few statements he did. At the moment,
>   I do not have the energy to respond to a caricature of Americans, it is so
>   many of them that have education and knowledge anyway, so why bother. .
>
>   Maybe Noam Chomsky would help, but it should be complemented by
>   some basic reading of history books.
>
>   Hakan
>
>
>   At 20:51 15/05/2004, you wrote:
>   >Hi Ryan,
>   >
>   >Where do you get your news/views from? Fox News!
>   >I don't know where to start in correcting the inaccuracies in your
>   >statements, nor do I have the time.
>   >I think the best thing you could do would be to read almost any book by
>Noam
>   >Chomsky (What Uncle Sam Really Wants or Deterring Democracy)about the way
>   >America runs the world.
>   >Did you never hear of the American overthrow of democratically elected
>   >governments in Chile and Guatemala and Iran?
>   >
>   >Regards
>   >Dermot
>   >
>   >-Original Message-
>   >From: Ryan Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   >Sent: 14 May 2004 09:22
>   >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>   >Subject: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war
>   >
>   >Hey Todd et al, let's not make this personal, did you perhaps not see my
>   >":)?".  I was merely saying that we have all benefited in the long run
>from
>   >the genocide that happened in North America in the past.  One cannot
>judge
>   >history by modern standards, that's History 101!  America is
>single-handedly
>   >the most innovative populace the world has ever known period.  Look
>around
>   >you, the technology our democracy and free markets have produced and
>   >continue to produce have saved countless more lives, and provided for
>even
>   >more than were lost in the settling of this land.  We are all benefiting
>   >from this, our life expectancy is much higher than even two generations
>ago,
>   >and our quality of life is unimaginable to those in the past.  Do you
>like
>   >your medicine?  Your efficient, convenient way of life?  Your
>entertainment,
>   >refrigerator, how about your computer, it's software and the Internet?
>Have
>   >you ever used a phone, or turned on a light, or read a newspaper, or
>   >wondered about the mysteries of Space?  This country has developed more
>   >technology than any other past or present, that we are all benefiting
>from.
>   >
>   >Furthermore, who does the world look to for justice in the world?  Were
>it
>   >not the Americans who emerged victorious in WWI and WWII saving the world
>   >from tyranny and genocide?  Did anyone else contribute more to the plight
>of
>   >the South Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Kuwaitis and Saudis, or to the
>people
>   >of Yugoslavia?  Who stopped the communists from taking over the world?
>Has
>   >anyone else offered to bail out countless corrupt government after
>corrupt
>   >government, saving people from poverty, without even asking to be
>re-paid?
>   >Do I condone genocide?  Of course not.  But we, in this day and age, have
>   >all benefited from it.  That is all I am saying.
>   >
>   >As for my comments on the need to reduce incentive for stability in the
>   >Middle East, I apologize for painting anyone on this list (who did not
>want
>   >to be painted) as working toward reducing dependency on foreign oil,
>   >specifically oil from the Middle East.  What I meant to say, is that I am
>   >working to reduce our dependency on foreign oil so that we as a nation
>have

RE: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war

[Ryan Morgan]

OK, enough already.  I won't make the same mistake again and post MHOs on
this list.  How any of you can sit there and say you have not directly
benefited from the colonization of the land that now makes up the USA is
beyond me, but OK.  Now, shall we get back to biofuels?

Thank you,

Ryan
  -Original Message-
  From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 6:41 PM
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war



  Dermot,

  The problem is that Ryan is a product of Hollywood history and that he
  must have slept in school. It is an overwhelming task to answer his short
  posting, that is so efficient in showing the total lack of knowledge in
facts
  and history. I was about to respond, but discovered that it would take
well
  over 20 pages, to correct only the few statements he did. At the moment,
  I do not have the energy to respond to a caricature of Americans, it is so
  many of them that have education and knowledge anyway, so why bother. .

  Maybe Noam Chomsky would help, but it should be complemented by
  some basic reading of history books.

  Hakan


  At 20:51 15/05/2004, you wrote:
  >Hi Ryan,
  >
  >Where do you get your news/views from? Fox News!
  >I don't know where to start in correcting the inaccuracies in your
  >statements, nor do I have the time.
  >I think the best thing you could do would be to read almost any book by
Noam
  >Chomsky (What Uncle Sam Really Wants or Deterring Democracy)about the way
  >America runs the world.
  >Did you never hear of the American overthrow of democratically elected
  >governments in Chile and Guatemala and Iran?
  >
  >Regards
  >Dermot
  >
  >-Original Message-
  >From: Ryan Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  >Sent: 14 May 2004 09:22
  >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  >Subject: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war
  >
  >Hey Todd et al, let's not make this personal, did you perhaps not see my
  >":)?".  I was merely saying that we have all benefited in the long run
from
  >the genocide that happened in North America in the past.  One cannot
judge
  >history by modern standards, that's History 101!  America is
single-handedly
  >the most innovative populace the world has ever known period.  Look
around
  >you, the technology our democracy and free markets have produced and
  >continue to produce have saved countless more lives, and provided for
even
  >more than were lost in the settling of this land.  We are all benefiting
  >from this, our life expectancy is much higher than even two generations
ago,
  >and our quality of life is unimaginable to those in the past.  Do you
like
  >your medicine?  Your efficient, convenient way of life?  Your
entertainment,
  >refrigerator, how about your computer, it's software and the Internet?
Have
  >you ever used a phone, or turned on a light, or read a newspaper, or
  >wondered about the mysteries of Space?  This country has developed more
  >technology than any other past or present, that we are all benefiting
from.
  >
  >Furthermore, who does the world look to for justice in the world?  Were
it
  >not the Americans who emerged victorious in WWI and WWII saving the world
  >from tyranny and genocide?  Did anyone else contribute more to the plight
of
  >the South Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Kuwaitis and Saudis, or to the
people
  >of Yugoslavia?  Who stopped the communists from taking over the world?
Has
  >anyone else offered to bail out countless corrupt government after
corrupt
  >government, saving people from poverty, without even asking to be
re-paid?
  >Do I condone genocide?  Of course not.  But we, in this day and age, have
  >all benefited from it.  That is all I am saying.
  >
  >As for my comments on the need to reduce incentive for stability in the
  >Middle East, I apologize for painting anyone on this list (who did not
want
  >to be painted) as working toward reducing dependency on foreign oil,
  >specifically oil from the Middle East.  What I meant to say, is that I am
  >working to reduce our dependency on foreign oil so that we as a nation
have
  >less of a reason (incentive) to meddle in the affairs of the Middle East.
  >As far as I can tell (and I have never been there) the region is fraught
  >with religious strife, brutality, ignorance, and hatred.  In short, most
of
  >the countries there seem almost laughably behind the times given their
  >resources, corrupt, and no place to be if you were born with fallopian
tubes
  >and a uterus.  Islamic law fosters fear, slows progress, and is easily
  >abused by those in power.  We are fighting the evil, backward, minority
in
  >Iraq for many reasons, oil, hope, and liberation among them.  We have
  >attempted to provide them

Re: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war

[balaji]

Hello Ryan,

- Original Message -
From: "Ryan Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 1:51 PM
Subject: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war


> Hey Todd et al, let's not make this personal, did you perhaps not see my
> ":)?".  I was merely saying that we have all benefited in the long run
from
> the genocide that happened in North America in the past.

How ? Are they sequential or consequential? Do you imply that techonological
progress is unattainable without the genocide ? Another case of us vs. them
or more preceisely US vs.them ?

> One cannot judge history by modern standards, that's History 101!  America
is single-handedly
> the most innovative populace the world has ever known period.

The USA is primarily a land of immigrants, and innovativeness and vigour are
characteristic of all immigrant populations who have to struggle all the
harder in an alien clime. Take away the immigrants and what is left of the
USA ?  Besides, your claim to single handed exclusivity for all these
advances bespeaks a monumental ignorance of how technology is advanced in
small incremental steps. Remember Newton and the shoulders of giants ?

> Look around you, the technology our democracy and free markets have
produced and
> continue to produce have saved countless more lives, and provided for even
> more than were lost in the settling of this land.  We are all benefiting
> from this, our life expectancy is much higher than even two generations
ago,
> and our quality of life is unimaginable to those in the past.  Do you like
> your medicine?  Your efficient, convenient way of life?  Your
entertainment,
> refrigerator, how about your computer, it's software and the Internet?
Have
> you ever used a phone, or turned on a light, or read a newspaper, or
> wondered about the mysteries of Space?  This country has developed more
> technology than any other past or present, that we are all benefiting
from.

What has all this got to do with the original genocide? All countries in the
world continue to contribute to the US in terms of quality manpower, the
essential in any innovative enterprise. To get a peep into how developing
countries underwrite these costs even today, visit
http://www.deeshaa.org/who_paid.html

> Furthermore, who does the world look to for justice in the world?

Ask the Afghans, the Iraqis and the Palestinians not to mention the
Vietnamese, and the disenfranchised blacks and Hispanics in your own
backyard. In fact, the USA has put itself beyond the pale of the
International Court of Justice, as has India.

> Were it not the Americans who emerged victorious in WWI and WWII saving
the world
> from tyranny and genocide?

The USA joined the WWII rather late, only after the attack on Pearl Harbour.
This is almost as bad as the Soviet claim that they won the WW II for the
rest of the world, without mentioning their sinister role pre 1940.

> Did anyone else contribute more to the plight of the South Koreans, the
Vietnamese, the Kuwaitis and Saudis, or to the people
> of Yugoslavia?

Duh ? More or less ? And the Vietnamese ? !!! Do you know what is the
contribution from other countries to maintaining peace in the hot spots of
the world under UN supervision? USA is way way down in that list.

>Who stopped the communists from taking over the world?
> Has anyone else offered to bail out countless corrupt government after
corrupt
> government, saving people from poverty, without even asking to be re-paid?

Why did the USA do that ? Did it have something to do with perceived saving
their chestnut from the fire. Do you remember Marcos, Yahya Khan, The Shah
of Iran ?  Do you know of a democractically elected person by the name of
Allende ?   And what about the compensation these autocratic friends of the
USA in the Middle East shelled
out for the earlier Gulf war? No altruism here, hmm ?

> Do I condone genocide?  Of course not.  But we, in this day and age, have
> all benefited from it.  That is all I am saying.

How ?

> As for my comments on the need to reduce incentive for stability in the
> Middle East, I apologize for painting anyone on this list (who did not
want
> to be painted) as working toward reducing dependency on foreign oil,
> specifically oil from the Middle East.  What I meant to say, is that I am
> working to reduce our dependency on foreign oil so that we as a nation
have
> less of a reason (incentive) to meddle in the affairs of the Middle East.

A laudable objective, no doubt. In fact this is the only place I find you
sensible and sensitive.

> As far as I can tell (and I have never been there) the region is fraught
> with religious strife, brutality, ignorance, and hatred.  In short, most
of
> the countries there seem almost laughably behind the times given their
> resources, corrupt, and no place to be if you were born with fallopian
tubes
> and a uterus.  Islamic law fosters fear, slows progress, and is easily
> abused by those in power.  We are fighting the 

RE: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war

[Hakan Falk]

Dermot,

The problem is that Ryan is a product of Hollywood history and that he
must have slept in school. It is an overwhelming task to answer his short
posting, that is so efficient in showing the total lack of knowledge in facts
and history. I was about to respond, but discovered that it would take well
over 20 pages, to correct only the few statements he did. At the moment,
I do not have the energy to respond to a caricature of Americans, it is so
many of them that have education and knowledge anyway, so why bother. .

Maybe Noam Chomsky would help, but it should be complemented by
some basic reading of history books.

Hakan


At 20:51 15/05/2004, you wrote:
>Hi Ryan,
>
>Where do you get your news/views from? Fox News!
>I don't know where to start in correcting the inaccuracies in your
>statements, nor do I have the time.
>I think the best thing you could do would be to read almost any book by Noam
>Chomsky (What Uncle Sam Really Wants or Deterring Democracy)about the way
>America runs the world.
>Did you never hear of the American overthrow of democratically elected
>governments in Chile and Guatemala and Iran?
>
>Regards
>Dermot
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Ryan Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: 14 May 2004 09:22
>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war
>
>Hey Todd et al, let's not make this personal, did you perhaps not see my
>":)?".  I was merely saying that we have all benefited in the long run from
>the genocide that happened in North America in the past.  One cannot judge
>history by modern standards, that's History 101!  America is single-handedly
>the most innovative populace the world has ever known period.  Look around
>you, the technology our democracy and free markets have produced and
>continue to produce have saved countless more lives, and provided for even
>more than were lost in the settling of this land.  We are all benefiting
>from this, our life expectancy is much higher than even two generations ago,
>and our quality of life is unimaginable to those in the past.  Do you like
>your medicine?  Your efficient, convenient way of life?  Your entertainment,
>refrigerator, how about your computer, it's software and the Internet?  Have
>you ever used a phone, or turned on a light, or read a newspaper, or
>wondered about the mysteries of Space?  This country has developed more
>technology than any other past or present, that we are all benefiting from.
>
>Furthermore, who does the world look to for justice in the world?  Were it
>not the Americans who emerged victorious in WWI and WWII saving the world
>from tyranny and genocide?  Did anyone else contribute more to the plight of
>the South Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Kuwaitis and Saudis, or to the people
>of Yugoslavia?  Who stopped the communists from taking over the world?  Has
>anyone else offered to bail out countless corrupt government after corrupt
>government, saving people from poverty, without even asking to be re-paid?
>Do I condone genocide?  Of course not.  But we, in this day and age, have
>all benefited from it.  That is all I am saying.
>
>As for my comments on the need to reduce incentive for stability in the
>Middle East, I apologize for painting anyone on this list (who did not want
>to be painted) as working toward reducing dependency on foreign oil,
>specifically oil from the Middle East.  What I meant to say, is that I am
>working to reduce our dependency on foreign oil so that we as a nation have
>less of a reason (incentive) to meddle in the affairs of the Middle East.
>As far as I can tell (and I have never been there) the region is fraught
>with religious strife, brutality, ignorance, and hatred.  In short, most of
>the countries there seem almost laughably behind the times given their
>resources, corrupt, and no place to be if you were born with fallopian tubes
>and a uterus.  Islamic law fosters fear, slows progress, and is easily
>abused by those in power.  We are fighting the evil, backward, minority in
>Iraq for many reasons, oil, hope, and liberation among them.  We have
>attempted to provide them with hope for a brighter future, teach them about
>democracy and free trade, so that we may watch them prosper, and no one can
>seem to get past centuries old grudges and hatred toward one another and us.
>It got so bad, one man ordered the hijacking and crashing of our own planes
>(once again our inventions) into our own skyscrapers (dido) because we had
>established a base in "The Holy Land" to promote stability in the region,
>and he couldn't handle we "Infidels" on his turf.  Where were the Muslims
>after 9/11?  I sure didn't hear cries of outrage and condemnation from their
>community, did you?  In fact the silence, at least state-side, was
>deafening.  We are "infidels," and every good Muslim must rid the world of
>infidels according to the Koran, am I right?  So I say, "Fine, you want me
>dead?  I'll fight you back by not buying your oil and 

RE: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war

[Dermot]

Hi Ryan,

Where do you get your news/views from? Fox News!
I don't know where to start in correcting the inaccuracies in your
statements, nor do I have the time.
I think the best thing you could do would be to read almost any book by Noam
Chomsky (What Uncle Sam Really Wants or Deterring Democracy)about the way
America runs the world.
Did you never hear of the American overthrow of democratically elected
governments in Chile and Guatemala and Iran?

Regards
Dermot

-Original Message-
From: Ryan Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 14 May 2004 09:22
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war

Hey Todd et al, let's not make this personal, did you perhaps not see my
":)?".  I was merely saying that we have all benefited in the long run from
the genocide that happened in North America in the past.  One cannot judge
history by modern standards, that's History 101!  America is single-handedly
the most innovative populace the world has ever known period.  Look around
you, the technology our democracy and free markets have produced and
continue to produce have saved countless more lives, and provided for even
more than were lost in the settling of this land.  We are all benefiting
from this, our life expectancy is much higher than even two generations ago,
and our quality of life is unimaginable to those in the past.  Do you like
your medicine?  Your efficient, convenient way of life?  Your entertainment,
refrigerator, how about your computer, it's software and the Internet?  Have
you ever used a phone, or turned on a light, or read a newspaper, or
wondered about the mysteries of Space?  This country has developed more
technology than any other past or present, that we are all benefiting from.

Furthermore, who does the world look to for justice in the world?  Were it
not the Americans who emerged victorious in WWI and WWII saving the world
from tyranny and genocide?  Did anyone else contribute more to the plight of
the South Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Kuwaitis and Saudis, or to the people
of Yugoslavia?  Who stopped the communists from taking over the world?  Has
anyone else offered to bail out countless corrupt government after corrupt
government, saving people from poverty, without even asking to be re-paid?
Do I condone genocide?  Of course not.  But we, in this day and age, have
all benefited from it.  That is all I am saying.

As for my comments on the need to reduce incentive for stability in the
Middle East, I apologize for painting anyone on this list (who did not want
to be painted) as working toward reducing dependency on foreign oil,
specifically oil from the Middle East.  What I meant to say, is that I am
working to reduce our dependency on foreign oil so that we as a nation have
less of a reason (incentive) to meddle in the affairs of the Middle East.
As far as I can tell (and I have never been there) the region is fraught
with religious strife, brutality, ignorance, and hatred.  In short, most of
the countries there seem almost laughably behind the times given their
resources, corrupt, and no place to be if you were born with fallopian tubes
and a uterus.  Islamic law fosters fear, slows progress, and is easily
abused by those in power.  We are fighting the evil, backward, minority in
Iraq for many reasons, oil, hope, and liberation among them.  We have
attempted to provide them with hope for a brighter future, teach them about
democracy and free trade, so that we may watch them prosper, and no one can
seem to get past centuries old grudges and hatred toward one another and us.
It got so bad, one man ordered the hijacking and crashing of our own planes
(once again our inventions) into our own skyscrapers (dido) because we had
established a base in "The Holy Land" to promote stability in the region,
and he couldn't handle we "Infidels" on his turf.  Where were the Muslims
after 9/11?  I sure didn't hear cries of outrage and condemnation from their
community, did you?  In fact the silence, at least state-side, was
deafening.  We are "infidels," and every good Muslim must rid the world of
infidels according to the Koran, am I right?  So I say, "Fine, you want me
dead?  I'll fight you back by not buying your oil and watching you figure
out the world doesn't work that way anymore and changing.

I buy and promote biodiesel to give the people of the Middle East incentive
to find another line of work and move forward.  As for the non-American
majority on this list, stop and consider, for a moment where you would be
without us.

Ryan
  -Original Message-
  From: appalenergy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 8:50 AM
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war


  Crikey Ryan!

  Did you read what you wrote? Do you even understand what it is that
  you communicated?

  How distored a perspective can you have when you say

  > that much more good has come from our use
  > of the land for 

Re: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war

[Appal Energy]

Ryan,

Nothing personal, huh?

I guess you don't have any ancestors who walked the Trail of Death or the
Trail
of Tears or have relatives who are members of the Lost Nation as a result of
domestic policies of tyranny.

And those walking the continent today are supposed to feel as if we've
benefitted because what? Because the national record of births was forever
altered from its natural course at the point of a sword or in advance of
flying lead?

So your or my life today is more important than those lives that were never
permitted to be, or the lives that were erased from the Earth, all due to
the radically misguided zealots of the day and their
abject policies of superiority?

"Benefitted" from genocide? You have adopted a distorted definition of the
word
"benefit" laddie, when you wrap it around and base it upon something as
permanently
destructive as genocide.

And the rest of your thought processes are akin to a 50 car freight that
jumped tracks at full throttle - contorted and twisted. The world wouldn't
have a 40 hour work week without genocide? The world wouldn't have internal
combustion engines without genocide? Refrigeration without genocide? Sulfa
drugs and penicillin without genocide? Genocide was necessary in order to
create the industrial fabric that would halt genocide in future centuries?

Nothing personal, huh?

Wrong. Such foolishness is extremely personal - and symbols, winks and nods
laced into a text message don't manage to make such comments any less
insulting or their distribution any less destructive.

As for your statement that "one cannot judge history by modern
standards...?"  Go back and read your post. That is exactly what you are
doing - using your "modern" standards as a ruler to justify genocide, or at
least diminutize its consequences.

As for bringing democracy to other nations? If you're going to reference
history at least have the decency to do so accurately. The Arab region once
had a fledgling
democracy, until Britain and the US undercut it to keep the oil fields from
being
nationalized. Do yourself and everyone else a favor by conductin a quick
internet search for "Mossadegh," or try
http://www.jebhemelli.org/Mosadegh/English-Mosadegh.htm.

[If you really want to get serious, have a go at other democracies and
social constructs that were decimated during the Eisenhower years. Murder
and Mayhem, Incorporated for the last 50 years in numerous instances as a
result of American subversion.]

You also seem to think that Arab nations are somehow second rate. Lest you
forget, the nations of Islam had libraries and universities centuries before
their was a centralized "christian" church. And maybe the
only reason they don't seem to be up to an acceptable speed by your
standards is that every hundred years arrogant
nationalists/corporatists/colonists and religious zealots with
multi-national armies to support them keep pillaging and marauding them back
to
their very foundations.

Maybe you too would get a bit weary of having to rebuild your country every
century, or sometimes more frequently. Perhaps you too would get virulently
angry with always being forced to wear the yoke and plow as demanded by
"colonial imperialism."

Or would you just nod your head dutifully in acquiescence that scorched
earth policies
are necessary for the greater good of everyone else? That the erradication
and subjagation of the few is necessary in order to secure the oppulence,
avarice and excess of the many?

Bullshit!!! - and with no apology.

Todd Swearingen


- Original Message - 
From: "Ryan Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 3:21 AM
Subject: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war


> Hey Todd et al, let's not make this personal, did you perhaps not see my
> ":)?".  I was merely saying that we have all benefited in the long run
from
> the genocide that happened in North America in the past.  One cannot judge
> history by modern standards, that's History 101!  America is
single-handedly
> the most innovative populace the world has ever known period.  Look around
> you, the technology our democracy and free markets have produced and
> continue to produce have saved countless more lives, and provided for even
> more than were lost in the settling of this land.  We are all benefiting
> from this, our life expectancy is much higher than even two generations
ago,
> and our quality of life is unimaginable to those in the past.  Do you like
> your medicine?  Your efficient, convenient way of life?  Your
entertainment,
> refrigerator, how about your computer, it's software and the Internet?
Have
> you ever used a phone, or turned on a light, or read a newspaper, or
> wondered about the mysteries of Space?  This country has developed more
> technology than any other past or present, that we are all benefiting
from.
>
> Furthermore, who does the world look to for justice in the world?  Were it
> not the Americans who emerged victorious in WWI and WWII saving