Re: [Biofuel] Battery Breakthrough?
I'm somewhat less skeptical. There have indeed been quite a few breakthrough battery concepts over the past decade or so, which have never materialized commercially. But this one has something. Or things, I should say. First, the chemistry is pretty much pre-lithium-sounding; almost a hybrid of alkaline and nickel-type chemistries. The safety and reliability of these types is pretty darn good. Second, if I've understood correctly, the potential gains in power and energy-density derive not so much from the chemistry, but from the structure of the battery itself. So, really, the safety issue sounds like a red herring, and the primary concern is to find a way to make these things in volume. Which leads to my final point, which is that this is a design which sounds as though it would be the perfect poster child for showcasing the potential of 3D printing. Put all these things together, and I think you'll find no shortage of venture capitalists looking to get behind it. ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Battery Breakthrough?
Hi Robert, as you might expect, I saw this announcement earlier in the week. While industry analysts are excited, my enthusiasm is restrained. When they get this to market as an affordable product in a size that is relevant to vehicle propulsion, then I will be excited. Today, we have OEMs making electric cars that are affordable (e.g., 2012 Mitsubishi i-MiEV can be acquired today for about $21,000 (after rebates and before taxes) in Ontario - range about 100 km (reliable in winter). The 2012 Nissan Leaf can be acquired locally now for about $25,000 (after rebates and before taxes) - range about 120 km (reliable in winter). The Tesla Model S (85kWh) can be acquired for about $92,000 (after rebates and before taxes) - range about 400 km (reliable in winter). (An amazing car.) That's with technology we saw on the market in small form factors a decade ago. I wonder what is stopping people from buying these vehicles in huge numbers today. They want to support the oil industry? Climate change is a hoax? They think the price of gasoline and diesel is going to drop dramatically in the near future and stay there indefinitely? The Osborne Effect (waiting for the next generation of a product which they expect to be better and cheaper, creating the risk that the vendor founders before they can produce it)? They really do travel over 4 hours at a time at highway speeds, multiple times per day, on a routine basis? (I telecommute now, but I remember resenting 20 minute commutes as a colossal waste of time.) Is it really still the sticker price? Supposing you plan to own a car for 10 years, and travel 20,000 km/year, and it gets a real world fuel consumption in the order of 8 litres/100 km, and gasoline is an average of just $1.50 per litre over the next 10 years. Well, 200,000 km at 8 L/100k is 16,000 litres for fuel. At $1.50, that's $24,000 - more than the price of the car (for the Leaf or i-MiEV). The electricity cost is almost trivial - charging at off-peak times, it really is, but let's say it's 2 cents per km over the 10 years, for a total of $4,000 for the whole decade. i-MiEV plus electricity for 10 years: $25,000. New gasoline econobox (e.g., Ford Focus) $17,000 vehicle + $24,000 fuel: $41,000. That's before we impose a carbon tax. The other exciting place for low-cost, high-capacity, long-life batteries (weight not an issue) is in storage for renewable energy from solar, wind, tidal and other intermittent sources. Darryl On 19/04/2013 4:03 PM, robert and benita rabello wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22191650 Super-powered battery breakthrough claimed by US team By Leo Kelion Technology reporter A new type of battery has been developed that, its creators say, could revolutionise the way we power consumer electronics and vehicles. The University of Illinois team says its use of 3D-electrodes allows it to build microbatteries that are many times smaller than commercially available options, or the same size and many times more powerful. It adds they can be recharged 1,000 times faster than competing tech. However, safety issues still remain. Details of the research are published in the journal Nature Communications. Battery breakthrough The researchers said their innovation should help address the issue that while smartphones and other gadgets have benefited from miniaturised electronics, battery advances have failed to keep pace. Batteries work by having two components - called electrodes - where chemical reactions occur. In simple terms, the anode is the electrode which releases electrons as a result of a process called oxidation when the battery is being used as a power source. The cathode is the electrode on the other side of the battery to which the electrons want to flow and be absorbed - but a third element, the electrolyte, blocks them from travelling directly. When the battery is plugged into a device the electrons can flow through its circuits making the journey from one electrode to the other. Meanwhile ions - electrically charged particles involved in the anode's oxidation process - do travel through the electrolyte. When they reach the cathode they react with the electrons that travelled via the other route. The scientists' breakthrough involved finding a new way to integrate the anode and cathode at the microscale. The battery electrodes have small intertwined fingers that reach into each other, project leader Prof William King told the BBC. That does a couple of things. It allows us to make the battery have a very high surface area even though the overall battery volume is extremely small. And it gets the two halves of the battery very close together so the ions and electrons do not have far to flow. Because we've reduced the flowing distance of the ions and electrons we can get the energy out much faster. Repeatable technique The battery cells were fabricated by adapting a process developed by another
Re: [Biofuel] Battery Breakthrough?
On 4/19/2013 2:06 PM, Darryl McMahon wrote: Hi Robert, as you might expect, I saw this announcement earlier in the week. While industry analysts are excited, my enthusiasm is restrained. When they get this to market as an affordable product in a size that is relevant to vehicle propulsion, then I will be excited. Right now I'm underwhelmed. I've read periodic announcements like this before, and I can't help but wonder how much is hype designed to stir investment dollars, as opposed to a genuine breakthrough. Today, we have OEMs making electric cars that are affordable (e.g., 2012 Mitsubishi i-MiEV can be acquired today for about $21,000 (after rebates and before taxes) in Ontario - range about 100 km (reliable in winter). The 2012 Nissan Leaf can be acquired locally now for about $25,000 (after rebates and before taxes) - range about 120 km (reliable in winter). The Leaf is supposed to be a nice car. I've also been ogling that Ford Focus EV, but that's running close to $50K. My Ranger is aging not so gracefully now, my boys are getting ready to leave home, and if I'm going to buy a car at all, it's going to be an EV. Having written this, I'd prefer to avoid buying ANYTHING, as the embodied energy in an automobile, along with its requisite infrastructure, contributes mightily to dependence on fossil energy and climate change. The Tesla Model S (85kWh) can be acquired for about $92,000 (after rebates and before taxes) - range about 400 km (reliable in winter). (An amazing car.) That's with technology we saw on the market in small form factors a decade ago. We saw one in Langley a couple of weeks ago. It's a beautiful machine, for certain! I wonder what is stopping people from buying these vehicles in huge numbers today. They want to support the oil industry? Climate change is a hoax? They think the price of gasoline and diesel is going to drop dramatically in the near future and stay there indefinitely? The Osborne Effect (waiting for the next generation of a product which they expect to be better and cheaper, creating the risk that the vendor founders before they can produce it)? The last car we bought was a hybrid Camry, more than 6 years ago. We decided to support hybrid technology because if there is no demand, innovation will stop. The same thing is true of battery electrics. But while hybrids have been steadily gaining market share (there are quite a few of them in our neighborhood), battery electrics remain rare birds. People I've spoken to about this believe they're too expensive and don't like the limited range. They really do travel over 4 hours at a time at highway speeds, multiple times per day, on a routine basis? (I telecommute now, but I remember resenting 20 minute commutes as a colossal waste of time.) No, of course not. But perception and reality are often two different things. If, however, I had to work in Vancouver, I'd hit the range limit of the Focus EV in a single direction. Is it really still the sticker price? Supposing you plan to own a car for 10 years, and travel 20,000 km/year, and it gets a real world fuel consumption in the order of 8 litres/100 km, and gasoline is an average of just $1.50 per litre over the next 10 years. Well, 200,000 km at 8 L/100k is 16,000 litres for fuel. At $1.50, that's $24,000 - more than the price of the car (for the Leaf or i-MiEV). The electricity cost is almost trivial - charging at off-peak times, it really is, but let's say it's 2 cents per km over the 10 years, for a total of $4,000 for the whole decade. i-MiEV plus electricity for 10 years: $25,000. New gasoline econobox (e.g., Ford Focus) $17,000 vehicle + $24,000 fuel: $41,000. That's before we impose a carbon tax. Agreed. The maths make sense. Our family laughed at us for buying a hybrid, but they're not laughing now . . . The other exciting place for low-cost, high-capacity, long-life batteries (weight not an issue) is in storage for renewable energy from solar, wind, tidal and other intermittent sources. Sigh . . . One day! Robert Luis Rabello Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Meet the People video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c Crisis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4 The Long Journey video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Battery Breakthrough?
I've got a 10 y/o prius, still working, though not as well. but mostly, I ride a bicycle. Ride a bicycle. through the rain, through the snow, through the nice weather, it's better than any EV. i want to get rid of the prius, be a 1-car family, but there'll be time for that later, it sill comes in handy. Once the house is finished perhaps, and I don't need to haul the utility trailer out for supplies. the mrs has a newer prius, also at least paid for, it still gets in the mid to upper 50s, my old one, not so much. - Original Message - From: robert and benita rabello rabe...@shaw.ca To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 6:45:14 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Battery Breakthrough? On 4/19/2013 2:06 PM, Darryl McMahon wrote: Hi Robert, as you might expect, I saw this announcement earlier in the week. While industry analysts are excited, my enthusiasm is restrained. When they get this to market as an affordable product in a size that is relevant to vehicle propulsion, then I will be excited. Right now I'm underwhelmed. I've read periodic announcements like this before, and I can't help but wonder how much is hype designed to stir investment dollars, as opposed to a genuine breakthrough. Today, we have OEMs making electric cars that are affordable (e.g., 2012 Mitsubishi i-MiEV can be acquired today for about $21,000 (after rebates and before taxes) in Ontario - range about 100 km (reliable in winter). The 2012 Nissan Leaf can be acquired locally now for about $25,000 (after rebates and before taxes) - range about 120 km (reliable in winter). The Leaf is supposed to be a nice car. I've also been ogling that Ford Focus EV, but that's running close to $50K. My Ranger is aging not so gracefully now, my boys are getting ready to leave home, and if I'm going to buy a car at all, it's going to be an EV. Having written this, I'd prefer to avoid buying ANYTHING, as the embodied energy in an automobile, along with its requisite infrastructure, contributes mightily to dependence on fossil energy and climate change. The Tesla Model S (85kWh) can be acquired for about $92,000 (after rebates and before taxes) - range about 400 km (reliable in winter). (An amazing car.) That's with technology we saw on the market in small form factors a decade ago. We saw one in Langley a couple of weeks ago. It's a beautiful machine, for certain! I wonder what is stopping people from buying these vehicles in huge numbers today. They want to support the oil industry? Climate change is a hoax? They think the price of gasoline and diesel is going to drop dramatically in the near future and stay there indefinitely? The Osborne Effect (waiting for the next generation of a product which they expect to be better and cheaper, creating the risk that the vendor founders before they can produce it)? The last car we bought was a hybrid Camry, more than 6 years ago. We decided to support hybrid technology because if there is no demand, innovation will stop. The same thing is true of battery electrics. But while hybrids have been steadily gaining market share (there are quite a few of them in our neighborhood), battery electrics remain rare birds. People I've spoken to about this believe they're too expensive and don't like the limited range. They really do travel over 4 hours at a time at highway speeds, multiple times per day, on a routine basis? (I telecommute now, but I remember resenting 20 minute commutes as a colossal waste of time.) No, of course not. But perception and reality are often two different things. If, however, I had to work in Vancouver, I'd hit the range limit of the Focus EV in a single direction. Is it really still the sticker price? Supposing you plan to own a car for 10 years, and travel 20,000 km/year, and it gets a real world fuel consumption in the order of 8 litres/100 km, and gasoline is an average of just $1.50 per litre over the next 10 years. Well, 200,000 km at 8 L/100k is 16,000 litres for fuel. At $1.50, that's $24,000 - more than the price of the car (for the Leaf or i-MiEV). The electricity cost is almost trivial - charging at off-peak times, it really is, but let's say it's 2 cents per km over the 10 years, for a total of $4,000 for the whole decade. i-MiEV plus electricity for 10 years: $25,000. New gasoline econobox (e.g., Ford Focus) $17,000 vehicle + $24,000 fuel: $41,000. That's before we impose a carbon tax. Agreed. The maths make sense. Our family laughed at us for buying a hybrid, but they're not laughing now . . . The other exciting place for low-cost, high-capacity, long-life batteries (weight not an issue) is in storage for renewable energy from solar, wind, tidal and other intermittent sources
Re: [Biofuel] Battery Breakthrough?
On 4/19/2013 4:13 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: I've got a 10 y/o prius, still working, though not as well. but mostly, I ride a bicycle. My eldest son doesn't have a driver's license. The family was up in arms about this, but he looks at an automobile as a liability and thinks, Why should I spend money on financing, insurance, repairs and fuel when I can ride my bike or take the bus wherever I need to go? In the town where I live, we have LOUSY bus service and we live high on a hill. My son and I have discussed converting his bike to an electric-assist by virtue of a hub motor and battery pack. He'd still have to climb the hill, but it would be a LOT easier than it is now. And, the climate here, while rainy, never gets as cold as it did even 20 years ago. We had ONE skiff of snow this winter. Mostly, it's been dry and cool. It's not bad for biking. Our Camry doesn't get the fuel economy it did when new, either. Robert Luis Rabello Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Meet the People video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c Crisis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4 The Long Journey video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
