Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

2006-10-10 Thread bob allen
JJJN wrote:
> Dang it I hate it when I make the same mistake twice.
> Again thanks for keeping me straight.  I also understand that it is 
> important to be clear when you are talking about things so closely related.
> 
> Could you give me a quick overview of what exactly happens in the 
> hydrogenation of oil and why that affects the gel point?

ok I'll give it a shot. Liquids solidify when all the component molecules can 
nestle together.  The 
more regular their structure, the more easily this will happen.  Saturated fats 
have a more regular 
structure than unsaturated fats, hence their gel points are higher. the 
unsaturation in vegetable 
oil amounts to putting kinks in otherwise regular chains.  Hydrogenation 
converts the source of the 
kinks- cis double bounds- to regular saturated chains, hence raising the gel 
point.


to recap:  saturated lipids, (usually from animal sources and called fats)  
regular structure, easy 
 nestling, high gel point.

unsaturated lipids ( usually from plant sources and called oils) 
irregular structure, 
difficult nestling, low gel point.


unsaturated bonds  + hydrogen---> saturated bonds  (the process is hence 
hydrogenation)



> 
> Jim
> 
> bob allen wrote:
> 
>>  you mean hydrogenated oil, hydrolyzed oil would be free fatty acids.
>>
>> "the scold"
>>
>>
>> JJJN wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> Hi Keith,
>>> I guess I am spoiled with the hydrolized oil I use that is mixed with 
>>> about 50 % animal fat.  But I must use a heated system in winter as I 
>>> gel around 45 degrees F. So winterizing is my big project now.
>>> Let me know how you do with the Venturi.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>  
>>
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

2006-10-10 Thread JJJN
Dang it I hate it when I make the same mistake twice.
Again thanks for keeping me straight.  I also understand that it is 
important to be clear when you are talking about things so closely related.

Could you give me a quick overview of what exactly happens in the 
hydrogenation of oil and why that affects the gel point?

Jim

bob allen wrote:

>  you mean hydrogenated oil, hydrolyzed oil would be free fatty acids.
>
>"the scold"
>
>
>JJJN wrote:
>  
>
>>Hi Keith,
>>I guess I am spoiled with the hydrolized oil I use that is mixed with 
>>about 50 % animal fat.  But I must use a heated system in winter as I 
>>gel around 45 degrees F. So winterizing is my big project now.
>>Let me know how you do with the Venturi.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

2006-10-10 Thread bob allen
  you mean hydrogenated oil, hydrolyzed oil would be free fatty acids.

"the scold"


JJJN wrote:
> Hi Keith,
> I guess I am spoiled with the hydrolized oil I use that is mixed with 
> about 50 % animal fat.  But I must use a heated system in winter as I 
> gel around 45 degrees F. So winterizing is my big project now.
> Let me know how you do with the Venturi.
> 
>

-- 
Bob Allen
http://www.ozarker.org/bob
-
Science is what we have learned about how to
keep from fooling ourselves.   Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

2006-10-10 Thread Keith Addison
Hi Jim

>Hi Keith,
>I guess I am spoiled with the hydrolized oil I use that is mixed with
>about 50 % animal fat.

Yes, I guess you are spoiled! :-)

>But I must use a heated system in winter as I
>gel around 45 degrees F. So winterizing is my big project now.

It's one reason we fitted the Elsbett system. We use SVO in summer 
until the temp hits about -5 deg C (23 deg F), then we switch to 
biodiesel. The Elsbett pre-heating has kept the biodiesel flowing 
freely through quite long periods at -12 to -15 deg C (10 to 5 deg 
F), haven't had a gelling problem yet. I don't know how far that 
would apply to 50% animal fat biodiesel though. A lot better than 45 
deg F I think.

>Let me know how you do with the Venturi.

Certainly I will, thanks.

Regards

Keith


>Jim
>
>Keith Addison wrote:
>
> >Hi Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >>What good would the methanol test do? I don't see a relationship with
> >>Polymerization. Now If you get a varnish layer like you would when
> >>oxidation affects Tung oil thats a sure giveaway it seems. I may be
> >>wrong but please explain.
> >>
> >>Also, Tung oil is a good subject here,  Polymerization affects it about
> >>as fast as anything going all you do is add oxygen and it happens.
> >>However I have store it for years by just  containering it  to eliminate
> >>the exposure to oxygen as I use it.  I also understand the oil has
> >>oxygen present during the packaging and seldom it is when I don' t open
> >>a can that has been around for a couple years that there is not a Skin.
> >>However the skin removed and the remaining oil is as good as ever until
> >>you add oxygen again.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I think the subject concerns Iodine Values as much as treatment and storage.
> >
> >
> >
> >>So my premise here is:  Catalysts may be present but without the oxygen
> >>they are inert to a point. Therefore, it becomes more important to
> >>reduce Oxygen in storage and processing than variables that are out of
> >>your control. However that is not to say one should introduce any Metal
> >>ions in the process if at all avoidable.  I think that Biodiesel can be
> >>stored well if it is:
> >>1) Stored with the containers full as possible.
> >>2) Stored out of sunlight and in as cold a place as possible.
> >>3) Processed in a way as to eliminate oxygen and metal ions in the
> >>process as much as possible.
> >>4) Use a hydrolyzed oil if you can get your hands on it.
> >>5) If using a venturi it is absolute prerequisite that you DO NOT LET
> >>AIR CHURN IN DURING PROCESSING.
> >>6) Get the fuel dry. ( use a Diesel fuel de-ox and fungicide.)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >One to add?
> >
> >
> >
> >>I think that Biodiesel can be
> >>stored well if it is:
> >>
> >>
> >
> >7) Not made of soy oil.
> >
> >By the way...
> >
> >
> >
> >>5) If using a venturi it is absolute prerequisite that you DO NOT LET
> >>AIR CHURN IN DURING PROCESSING.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Soon! I've done no work with biodiesel for the last five months other
> >than make it as needed, but the other work (farm) is winding down in
> >October and then I'll be able to pick up some of the things I've been
> >putting aside, including the venturi.
> >
> >All best
> >
> >Keith
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>I have been wrong before and submit this premise to the greater minds of
> >>the list for scrutiny. Interesting subject this.
> >>
> >>Jim
> >>
> >>Joe Street wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hi Tom;
> >>>
> >>>Just for giggles, if you get time I'd be curious if the methanol test
> >>>still passes on the 2 month old B100.  I assume it will still oxidize
> >>>even without the copper in constant contact.  There is sure to be
> >>>metal ions in the fuel from various sources.  Now that the cold is
> >>>here and I can only run B50 I'll slow down my production so I don't
> >>>get ahead of myself like I did last winter.
> >>>
> >>>Joe
> >>>
> >>>Thomas Kelly wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> Joe,
> Keep in mind that I had a 1M. piece of copper tubing submerged in the
> BD for over 3 months. I have a cubie of BD that was still crystal clear
> after 2 months (the longest I have stored BD other than the polymerized
> stuff) and it will go in the car.
> The 50+ gal (200L) of BD in question is burning in my
> 
> 
> >>oil-fired boiler.
> >>
> >>
> I'm about half way through it and with the temps getting cooler
> 
> 
> >>it should be
> >>
> >>
> gone soon. Good riddance to it.
> I like the silver lining you found in what looked like a grey cloud.
>  Tom
> - Original Message -
> From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> To:  
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:12 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be
> concernedwith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >While looking for info on IR spectra, I found this excellent paper;
> >
> >http://

Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

2006-10-09 Thread JJJN
Hi Keith,
I guess I am spoiled with the hydrolized oil I use that is mixed with 
about 50 % animal fat.  But I must use a heated system in winter as I 
gel around 45 degrees F. So winterizing is my big project now.
Let me know how you do with the Venturi.

Jim

Keith Addison wrote:

>Hi Jim
>
>  
>
>>What good would the methanol test do? I don't see a relationship with
>>Polymerization. Now If you get a varnish layer like you would when
>>oxidation affects Tung oil thats a sure giveaway it seems. I may be
>>wrong but please explain.
>>
>>Also, Tung oil is a good subject here,  Polymerization affects it about
>>as fast as anything going all you do is add oxygen and it happens.
>>However I have store it for years by just  containering it  to eliminate
>>the exposure to oxygen as I use it.  I also understand the oil has
>>oxygen present during the packaging and seldom it is when I don' t open
>>a can that has been around for a couple years that there is not a Skin.
>>However the skin removed and the remaining oil is as good as ever until
>>you add oxygen again.
>>
>>
>
>I think the subject concerns Iodine Values as much as treatment and storage.
>
>  
>
>>So my premise here is:  Catalysts may be present but without the oxygen
>>they are inert to a point. Therefore, it becomes more important to
>>reduce Oxygen in storage and processing than variables that are out of
>>your control. However that is not to say one should introduce any Metal
>>ions in the process if at all avoidable.  I think that Biodiesel can be
>>stored well if it is:
>>1) Stored with the containers full as possible.
>>2) Stored out of sunlight and in as cold a place as possible.
>>3) Processed in a way as to eliminate oxygen and metal ions in the
>>process as much as possible.
>>4) Use a hydrolyzed oil if you can get your hands on it.
>>5) If using a venturi it is absolute prerequisite that you DO NOT LET
>>AIR CHURN IN DURING PROCESSING.
>>6) Get the fuel dry. ( use a Diesel fuel de-ox and fungicide.)
>>
>>
>
>One to add?
>
>  
>
>>I think that Biodiesel can be
>>stored well if it is:
>>
>>
>
>7) Not made of soy oil.
>
>By the way...
>
>  
>
>>5) If using a venturi it is absolute prerequisite that you DO NOT LET
>>AIR CHURN IN DURING PROCESSING.
>>
>>
>
>Soon! I've done no work with biodiesel for the last five months other 
>than make it as needed, but the other work (farm) is winding down in 
>October and then I'll be able to pick up some of the things I've been 
>putting aside, including the venturi.
>
>All best
>
>Keith
>
>
>  
>
>>I have been wrong before and submit this premise to the greater minds of
>>the list for scrutiny. Interesting subject this.
>>
>>Jim
>>
>>Joe Street wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi Tom;
>>>
>>>Just for giggles, if you get time I'd be curious if the methanol test
>>>still passes on the 2 month old B100.  I assume it will still oxidize
>>>even without the copper in constant contact.  There is sure to be
>>>metal ions in the fuel from various sources.  Now that the cold is
>>>here and I can only run B50 I'll slow down my production so I don't
>>>get ahead of myself like I did last winter.
>>>
>>>Joe
>>>
>>>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>
Joe,
Keep in mind that I had a 1M. piece of copper tubing submerged in the
BD for over 3 months. I have a cubie of BD that was still crystal clear
after 2 months (the longest I have stored BD other than the polymerized
stuff) and it will go in the car.
The 50+ gal (200L) of BD in question is burning in my 


>>oil-fired boiler.
>>
>>
I'm about half way through it and with the temps getting cooler 


>>it should be
>>
>>
gone soon. Good riddance to it.
I like the silver lining you found in what looked like a grey cloud.
 Tom
- Original Message -
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 


>>
>>
>>
To:  
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be
concernedwith.






>While looking for info on IR spectra, I found this excellent paper;
>
>http://nationalbiodieselboard.com/resources/reportsdatabase/repor 
>  
>
>>ts/gen/19970612_gen-234.pdf#search=%22biodiesel%20methyl%20ester%20wav 
>>enumber%22
>>
>>
>Which talks about issues surrounding fuel contamination and deposits.
>An earlier thread had comments from Tom Kelly regarding copper ions
>causing polymerization.  According to this paper other metals such as
>aluminum and iron can catalyze polymerization when biodiesel is stored.
>This news is good and bad. The bad news is I think it is impossible to
>avoid these metal ions.  Even if the system is all plastic or plastic
>lined I bet the WVO feedstocks are already chocked with metal, and the

Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

2006-10-09 Thread JJJN
Thanks Bob,
Jim

bob allen wrote:

>just a point on terminology
>
>
>  
>
>>>4) Use a hydrolyzed oil if you can get your hands on it.
>>>  
>>>
>
>you mean hydrogenated, not hydrolyzed.  Hydrolyzed oil would be free 
>fatty acids.
>
>
>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

2006-10-09 Thread bob allen
just a point on terminology


>> 4) Use a hydrolyzed oil if you can get your hands on it.

you mean hydrogenated, not hydrolyzed.  Hydrolyzed oil would be free 
fatty acids.


-- 
Bob Allen
http://www.ozarker.org/bob
-
Science is what we have learned about how to
keep from fooling ourselves.   Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

2006-10-09 Thread Keith Addison
Hi Jim

>What good would the methanol test do? I don't see a relationship with
>Polymerization. Now If you get a varnish layer like you would when
>oxidation affects Tung oil thats a sure giveaway it seems. I may be
>wrong but please explain.
>
>Also, Tung oil is a good subject here,  Polymerization affects it about
>as fast as anything going all you do is add oxygen and it happens.
>However I have store it for years by just  containering it  to eliminate
>the exposure to oxygen as I use it.  I also understand the oil has
>oxygen present during the packaging and seldom it is when I don' t open
>a can that has been around for a couple years that there is not a Skin.
>However the skin removed and the remaining oil is as good as ever until
>you add oxygen again.

I think the subject concerns Iodine Values as much as treatment and storage.

>So my premise here is:  Catalysts may be present but without the oxygen
>they are inert to a point. Therefore, it becomes more important to
>reduce Oxygen in storage and processing than variables that are out of
>your control. However that is not to say one should introduce any Metal
>ions in the process if at all avoidable.  I think that Biodiesel can be
>stored well if it is:
>1) Stored with the containers full as possible.
>2) Stored out of sunlight and in as cold a place as possible.
>3) Processed in a way as to eliminate oxygen and metal ions in the
>process as much as possible.
>4) Use a hydrolyzed oil if you can get your hands on it.
>5) If using a venturi it is absolute prerequisite that you DO NOT LET
>AIR CHURN IN DURING PROCESSING.
>6) Get the fuel dry. ( use a Diesel fuel de-ox and fungicide.)

One to add?

>I think that Biodiesel can be
>stored well if it is:

7) Not made of soy oil.

By the way...

>5) If using a venturi it is absolute prerequisite that you DO NOT LET
>AIR CHURN IN DURING PROCESSING.

Soon! I've done no work with biodiesel for the last five months other 
than make it as needed, but the other work (farm) is winding down in 
October and then I'll be able to pick up some of the things I've been 
putting aside, including the venturi.

All best

Keith


>I have been wrong before and submit this premise to the greater minds of
>the list for scrutiny. Interesting subject this.
>
>Jim
>
>Joe Street wrote:
>
> > Hi Tom;
> >
> > Just for giggles, if you get time I'd be curious if the methanol test
> > still passes on the 2 month old B100.  I assume it will still oxidize
> > even without the copper in constant contact.  There is sure to be
> > metal ions in the fuel from various sources.  Now that the cold is
> > here and I can only run B50 I'll slow down my production so I don't
> > get ahead of myself like I did last winter.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > Thomas Kelly wrote:
> >
> >>Joe,
> >> Keep in mind that I had a 1M. piece of copper tubing submerged in the
> >>BD for over 3 months. I have a cubie of BD that was still crystal clear
> >>after 2 months (the longest I have stored BD other than the polymerized
> >>stuff) and it will go in the car.
> >> The 50+ gal (200L) of BD in question is burning in my 
>oil-fired boiler.
> >>I'm about half way through it and with the temps getting cooler 
>it should be
> >>gone soon. Good riddance to it.
> >> I like the silver lining you found in what looked like a grey cloud.
> >>  Tom
> >>- Original Message -
> >>From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>
> >>To:  
> >>Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:12 PM
> >>Subject: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be
> >>concernedwith.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>While looking for info on IR spectra, I found this excellent paper;
> >>>
> >>>http://nationalbiodieselboard.com/resources/reportsdatabase/repor 
>ts/gen/19970612_gen-234.pdf#search=%22biodiesel%20methyl%20ester%20wav 
>enumber%22
> >>>
> >>>Which talks about issues surrounding fuel contamination and deposits.
> >>>An earlier thread had comments from Tom Kelly regarding copper ions
> >>>causing polymerization.  According to this paper other metals such as
> >>>aluminum and iron can catalyze polymerization when biodiesel is stored.
> >>>This news is good and bad. The bad news is I think it is impossible to
> >>>avoid these metal ions.  Even if the system is all plastic or plastic
> >>>lined I bet the WVO feedstocks are already chocked with metal, and the
> >>>fuel will pick up metals in the vehicle anyways. This means that
> >>>biodiesel should not be stored.  DUH. Didn't I read that on J2F years
> >>>ago? The good news is that the polymerization is slow at room
> >>>temperature. This is also good news because it means that the folks who
> >>>are trying to produce massive quantities of biodiesel are going to have
> >>>a BIG problem that they just cannot solve because they need to store and
> >>>transport the product. And their product has a poor shelf life. Hmmm. Of
> >>>course the home brewer who can m