RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS..........rules for biofuels list
On 8/oct/04 Greg H wrote to me (Still haven't read the list rules have you.) I now reply. I have now found time to re-read more carefully the 3 pages of rules/ useful guidance. makes much more sense second time around. I also read the guidance on 'on top' responses, and Netiquette. I did not make time to read the book by Virginia Shea. Having read these rules I can see that I have proceeded incorrectly, and without proper etiquette. Let's see if I now properly understand where all the places that I have gone wrong. Perhaps you may find time to check this Greg and help me refine my etiquette, contribution, and proper use of the group. This 'confession' may also serve as helpful direction to aspiring new members. 1. Firstly, I should have taken the advice to observe the group's chat and manners, and researched archived info' before 'blundering in'. 2. I also should have re-read rules, BEFORE contributing. 3. I probably have upset etiquette by adding to the subject line, as I've done above, as this might interefere with the 'thread', and searching archives. Can Greg ,or other, please comment on this. Should I start a new subject or 'thread', rather than confuse existing subjects? 4. I should have researched parts of my chosen subjects much more thoroughly. 5. I sometimes use colloquial English, and abbreviations, and should use my 'best English'. 6. I have already had my wrist slapped ( colloquial English again- but expressive meaning clear?) for ' Adverising Of Goods Or Services'. I accept in relation to ' proportional to member's contribution' as I was clearly a new boy on the block, BUT I strongly refute 'Adverising' as I have no financial gain. It is a technology that I am totally committed to environmentally. But nonetheless, I accept the 'spirit' of how it was brought to my attention, and 'proportional to contribution'. 7. Wrist slapping continued for 'calling for an offlist response'. I am 'guilty, guilty,guilty!'.Apologies, I now understand the rule and will not do so again. This the first ever discussion list I have joined. I have poor IT skills which does not help joining a group like this, but the group has helped me. I find the level of debate and knowledge superlative for a fuels/sustainability group and it is of great interest to me. I apologise if I have offended Greg or others by my etiquette, or lack of it. Perhaps Greg, or others, may want to comment on whether they think I have now read and understood the rules sufficiently to continue,or I am still missing major issues, and to suggest helpful comment re point 3 above, re Subject Heading, and 'thread of discussion'. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Johnston, Don Sent: 11 October 2004 19:03 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS Greg, I confess. I must find time to read the rules. I chose to answer correspondence first. Its 7:00pm, I have 147 unread messages, and I guess my employer might well suggest that I should even be on this list. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -----Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: 08 October 2004 17:52 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS Still hSaven't read the list rules have you. Greg H. - Original Message - From: "Johnston, Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 09:18 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS Right on! Greg. You did not make me LOL. Wait til you read my next one. I wonder if you will get involved? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS
Greg, I confess. I must find time to read the rules. I chose to answer correspondence first. Its 7:00pm, I have 147 unread messages, and I guess my employer might well suggest that I should even be on this list. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: 08 October 2004 17:52 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS Still haven't read the list rules have you. Greg H. - Original Message - From: "Johnston, Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 09:18 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS Right on! Greg. You did not make me LOL. Wait til you read my next one. I wonder if you will get involved? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS
I have been evaluating it with others since late 1996. Ithas been in my car for nearly 6 years and 65,000 miles, and my wifes car for nearly 8 years and 74,000 miles. Both cars have original exhausts. I have never known exhausts last so long! It has dealt with sludge contaminated fuel in 5 of our council boilers. Fuel related breakdowns have ceased.Boiler fuel savings indicated to be 15 % (guarranteed level by manufacturer) - 18%. See other circulated info', particuarly AMS( Alenia Marconi Services ) smoke test on their generators, and DERA ( Formerly UK Govt Defence Evaluation Research Agency ) ( now privatised and called QINETIQ ) EMISSIOIN TESTS on a small petrol generator. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 October 2004 17:04 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS You have been evaluating it since 1999, why isn't it on the market yet. The only sources of info I can find is minutes of political meetings in your government (one of your parlement folks trying to get funding for his constiuent) and your own promo pieces. Hey there is always room for another mystery oil, and I look forward to proof it works. = = = Original message = = = Yeh, many thanks for this. I do not mean you to waste your time trawling for evidence to convince me. In fact, I'm already convincing myself by my assessments re fuels anyway, but I guess the real point is that I should improve my skill at researching existing scientific and technical research, and that way I need not get into attempting to assess myself. ~I wonder what you will make of the message I have just asked to be circulated requesting that at least some biofuelers assess KD 420 Combustion Improving technology. The claims are so hard to believe that 'quack ' status seeems unavoidable. Wait til it's out..its a big read with the info' which goes with it ,but I'd appreciate honest feedback. Thanks for feedback so far. I'm off for the weekend.won't be back til monday pm. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 October 2004 15:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS I could quote the years of studies, or I could just point you back to science 101. I'm glad you anticipated this response. The first step in conquering a problem is admitting you have one. It's not a crime to be scientifically off-track, and there is help available. Magnets have a few great properties, but they are not magic. You could start with consumer reports, or any of the major scientific journals. The quack sites don't count. When one claims that water is fuel, or that perpetual motion exists, we don't need to refute it, the onus is on the "promoter" to prove that it does work, as quack status is already a given. This particular one has been tried and discarded. Look at the companies that actually try to sell this stuff. They are not mainstream, respectable companies. = = = Original message = = = THis is certainly one type of the responses I anticipated. What evidence do you have for your statement? I was kind enough to include mine. But you did make me LOL! Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 October 2004 14:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota FuelsPlan...MAGNETS Magnets do nothing for combustion or joint pain. They do, however, do wonders for lightening the load on the wallets of the scientifically clueless. = = = Original message = = = Hi all MAGNETS TO IMPROVE COMBUSTION?...and OTHER USES ~I have an interest in any means which might improve combustion and this includes magnets. There seems to be an abundance of contradictory anecdotal evidence. If it's of interest, here is mine:- 1. A 'Purnash Fuel King&#x
Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS
It's not you that wants the evidence, it's the list.Here you provide the evidence, we don't just take it on your say so. When are you going to read the list rules? Greg H. - Original Message - From: "Johnston, Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 09:14 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS Yeh, many thanks for this. I do not mean you to waste your time trawling for evidence to convince me. In fact, I'm already convincing myself by my assessments re fuels anyway, but I guess the real point is that I should improve my skill at researching existing scientific and technical research, and that way I need not get into attempting to assess myself. I wonder what you will make of the message I have just asked to be circulated requesting that at least some biofuelers assess KD 420 Combustion Improving technology. The claims are so hard to believe that 'quack ' status seeems unavoidable. Wait til it's out..its a big read with the info' which goes with it ,but I'd appreciate honest feedback. Thanks for feedback so far. I'm off for the weekend.won't be back til monday pm. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS
Still haven't read the list rules have you. Greg H. - Original Message - From: "Johnston, Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 09:18 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS Right on! Greg. You did not make me LOL. Wait til you read my next one. I wonder if you will get involved? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS
You have been evaluating it since 1999, why isn't it on the market yet. The only sources of info I can find is minutes of political meetings in your government (one of your parlement folks trying to get funding for his constiuent) and your own promo pieces. Hey there is always room for another mystery oil, and I look forward to proof it works. = = = Original message = = = Yeh, many thanks for this. I do not mean you to waste your time trawling for evidence to convince me. In fact, I'm already convincing myself by my assessments re fuels anyway, but I guess the real point is that I should improve my skill at researching existing scientific and technical research, and that way I need not get into attempting to assess myself. ~I wonder what you will make of the message I have just asked to be circulated requesting that at least some biofuelers assess KD 420 Combustion Improving technology. The claims are so hard to believe that 'quack ' status seeems unavoidable. Wait til it's out..its a big read with the info' which goes with it ,but I'd appreciate honest feedback. Thanks for feedback so far. I'm off for the weekend.won't be back til monday pm. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 October 2004 15:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS I could quote the years of studies, or I could just point you back to science 101. I'm glad you anticipated this response. The first step in conquering a problem is admitting you have one. It's not a crime to be scientifically off-track, and there is help available. Magnets have a few great properties, but they are not magic. You could start with consumer reports, or any of the major scientific journals. The quack sites don't count. When one claims that water is fuel, or that perpetual motion exists, we don't need to refute it, the onus is on the "promoter" to prove that it does work, as quack status is already a given. This particular one has been tried and discarded. Look at the companies that actually try to sell this stuff. They are not mainstream, respectable companies. = = = Original message = = = THis is certainly one type of the responses I anticipated. What evidence do you have for your statement? I was kind enough to include mine. But you did make me LOL! Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 October 2004 14:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota FuelsPlan...MAGNETS Magnets do nothing for combustion or joint pain. They do, however, do wonders for lightening the load on the wallets of the scientifically clueless. = = = Original message = = = Hi all MAGNETS TO IMPROVE COMBUSTION?...and OTHER USES ~I have an interest in any means which might improve combustion and this includes magnets. There seems to be an abundance of contradictory anecdotal evidence. If it's of interest, here is mine:- 1. A 'Purnash Fuel King' magnet has made no discernible impact on the performance of a 1.9dti Renault Megane Scenic over 19,120 miles over 1 year and 3 months,as compared with a previously calculated fuel performance history over 4.5 years . It made no difference to 3 MOT emission test results also. HOWEVER, assessed in conjunction with use of kd 420 Combustion Improver ( which I know works...but not HOW it works), so magnet may possibly be trying to achieve what is already achieved by KD420??? So must now stop KD and if performance does not fall away, then I may be forgiven for considering that magnets and kd achieve the same thing. 2. Similarly, 2 'ecoflow' magnets, one in above car in conjunction with Purnash unit failed to imfluence performance in 7,940 miles and 6 months, and in a Peugeot 106 1.5 diesel over approx 3,100 miles over the same 6 months, also using KD420. 3. I intend to assess the 2 Eco units in 2 council Pest Control vans with approx 2 years known fuel consumption history. 4. A Professor at Portsmouth university informs me that the uni has officially reported that magnets do not enhance combustion. 5. A colleague assessed 4 motor cycle sized magnets ( eco flow units?) by attaching these to the st
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS
Right on! Greg. You did not make me LOL. Wait til you read my next one. I wonder if you will get involved? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: 08 October 2004 15:02 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS The same kind of evidence that shows that you didn't read the list rules. Greg H. - Original Message - From: "Johnston, Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 07:25 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS THis is certainly one type of the responses I anticipated. What evidence do you have for your statement? I was kind enough to include mine. But you did make me LOL! Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS
Yeh, many thanks for this. I do not mean you to waste your time trawling for evidence to convince me. In fact, I'm already convincing myself by my assessments re fuels anyway, but I guess the real point is that I should improve my skill at researching existing scientific and technical research, and that way I need not get into attempting to assess myself. I wonder what you will make of the message I have just asked to be circulated requesting that at least some biofuelers assess KD 420 Combustion Improving technology. The claims are so hard to believe that 'quack ' status seeems unavoidable. Wait til it's out..its a big read with the info' which goes with it ,but I'd appreciate honest feedback. Thanks for feedback so far. I'm off for the weekend.won't be back til monday pm. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 October 2004 15:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS I could quote the years of studies, or I could just point you back to science 101. I'm glad you anticipated this response. The first step in conquering a problem is admitting you have one. It's not a crime to be scientifically off-track, and there is help available. Magnets have a few great properties, but they are not magic. You could start with consumer reports, or any of the major scientific journals. The quack sites don't count. When one claims that water is fuel, or that perpetual motion exists, we don't need to refute it, the onus is on the "promoter" to prove that it does work, as quack status is already a given. This particular one has been tried and discarded. Look at the companies that actually try to sell this stuff. They are not mainstream, respectable companies. = = = Original message = = = THis is certainly one type of the responses I anticipated. What evidence do you have for your statement? I was kind enough to include mine. But you did make me LOL! Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 October 2004 14:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota FuelsPlan...MAGNETS Magnets do nothing for combustion or joint pain. They do, however, do wonders for lightening the load on the wallets of the scientifically clueless. = = = Original message = = = Hi all MAGNETS TO IMPROVE COMBUSTION?...and OTHER USES ~I have an interest in any means which might improve combustion and this includes magnets. There seems to be an abundance of contradictory anecdotal evidence. If it's of interest, here is mine:- 1. A 'Purnash Fuel King' magnet has made no discernible impact on the performance of a 1.9dti Renault Megane Scenic over 19,120 miles over 1 year and 3 months,as compared with a previously calculated fuel performance history over 4.5 years . It made no difference to 3 MOT emission test results also. HOWEVER, assessed in conjunction with use of kd 420 Combustion Improver ( which I know works...but not HOW it works), so magnet may possibly be trying to achieve what is already achieved by KD420??? So must now stop KD and if performance does not fall away, then I may be forgiven for considering that magnets and kd achieve the same thing. 2. Similarly, 2 'ecoflow' magnets, one in above car in conjunction with Purnash unit failed to imfluence performance in 7,940 miles and 6 months, and in a Peugeot 106 1.5 diesel over approx 3,100 miles over the same 6 months, also using KD420. 3. I intend to assess the 2 Eco units in 2 council Pest Control vans with approx 2 years known fuel consumption history. 4. A Professor at Portsmouth university informs me that the uni has officially reported that magnets do not enhance combustion. 5. A colleague assessed 4 motor cycle sized magnets ( eco flow units?) by attaching these to the steel fuel lines as close as possible to the individual cylinder injectors in a diesel car. He did not record any improvement but this colleague has recorded similar improvement to myself with KD420 and with ZX1 Friction Eliminator. 6. An Energy Manager whom I hold in very high regard, who is employed in an organisation which serves 'National Interests' a
Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS
The same kind of evidence that shows that you didn't read the list rules. Greg H. - Original Message - From: "Johnston, Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 07:25 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US MinnesotaFuelsPlan...MAGNETS THis is certainly one type of the responses I anticipated. What evidence do you have for your statement? I was kind enough to include mine. But you did make me LOL! Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota FuelsPlan...MAGNETS
I could quote the years of studies, or I could just point you back to science 101. I'm glad you anticipated this response. The first step in conquering a problem is admitting you have one. It's not a crime to be scientifically off-track, and there is help available. Magnets have a few great properties, but they are not magic. You could start with consumer reports, or any of the major scientific journals. The quack sites don't count. When one claims that water is fuel, or that perpetual motion exists, we don't need to refute it, the onus is on the "promoter" to prove that it does work, as quack status is already a given. This particular one has been tried and discarded. Look at the companies that actually try to sell this stuff. They are not mainstream, respectable companies. = = = Original message = = = THis is certainly one type of the responses I anticipated. What evidence do you have for your statement? I was kind enough to include mine. But you did make me LOL! Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 October 2004 14:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota FuelsPlan...MAGNETS Magnets do nothing for combustion or joint pain. They do, however, do wonders for lightening the load on the wallets of the scientifically clueless. = = = Original message = = = Hi all MAGNETS TO IMPROVE COMBUSTION?...and OTHER USES ~I have an interest in any means which might improve combustion and this includes magnets. There seems to be an abundance of contradictory anecdotal evidence. If it's of interest, here is mine:- 1. A 'Purnash Fuel King' magnet has made no discernible impact on the performance of a 1.9dti Renault Megane Scenic over 19,120 miles over 1 year and 3 months,as compared with a previously calculated fuel performance history over 4.5 years . It made no difference to 3 MOT emission test results also. HOWEVER, assessed in conjunction with use of kd 420 Combustion Improver ( which I know works...but not HOW it works), so magnet may possibly be trying to achieve what is already achieved by KD420??? So must now stop KD and if performance does not fall away, then I may be forgiven for considering that magnets and kd achieve the same thing. 2. Similarly, 2 'ecoflow' magnets, one in above car in conjunction with Purnash unit failed to imfluence performance in 7,940 miles and 6 months, and in a Peugeot 106 1.5 diesel over approx 3,100 miles over the same 6 months, also using KD420. 3. I intend to assess the 2 Eco units in 2 council Pest Control vans with approx 2 years known fuel consumption history. 4. A Professor at Portsmouth university informs me that the uni has officially reported that magnets do not enhance combustion. 5. A colleague assessed 4 motor cycle sized magnets ( eco flow units?) by attaching these to the steel fuel lines as close as possible to the individual cylinder injectors in a diesel car. He did not record any improvement but this colleague has recorded similar improvement to myself with KD420 and with ZX1 Friction Eliminator. 6. An Energy Manager whom I hold in very high regard, who is employed in an organisation which serves 'National Interests' assures me that he has recorded improved combustion between 8-22% in both gas and oil fired boilers. Thisis contrary to all my other findings,...could it be that the steady combustion in a boiler is more influenced? I cannot reconcile his observations with my own. and .. 7. My wife and I , and up to approx 200 others, are convinced that american 'Soap Max' magnets are saving us more than 50% of laundry washing powder in our washing machines.and, and ,and. 8. I am convinced that I reduced pain and cured a chronic 2 year tennis elbow condition with a soapmax magnet strapped to my elbow directly over the pain site! So there! I await the rush of comments that these are not very 'scientific tests', which of course I know. But I would like to add thisa particular fuel / technology / or fuel device might well perform to x% in a carefully controlled laboratory test regime. But the scientists or technicians carrying out the lab test would be cautious of stating that it would perform in an identical manner in ,say, a london, New York, or Tokyo bus.They would say if you want to find out how it would perform in a bus under operational tests, then why do you not put it in a bus? This is what I do. Operational tests and anecdotal evidence are still evidence. Don Johnston Environmental Coordina
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota FuelsPlan...MAGNETS
THis is certainly one type of the responses I anticipated. What evidence do you have for your statement? I was kind enough to include mine. But you did make me LOL! Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 October 2004 14:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota FuelsPlan...MAGNETS Magnets do nothing for combustion or joint pain. They do, however, do wonders for lightening the load on the wallets of the scientifically clueless. = = = Original message = = = Hi all MAGNETS TO IMPROVE COMBUSTION?...and OTHER USES ~I have an interest in any means which might improve combustion and this includes magnets. There seems to be an abundance of contradictory anecdotal evidence. If it's of interest, here is mine:- 1. A 'Purnash Fuel King' magnet has made no discernible impact on the performance of a 1.9dti Renault Megane Scenic over 19,120 miles over 1 year and 3 months,as compared with a previously calculated fuel performance history over 4.5 years . It made no difference to 3 MOT emission test results also. HOWEVER, assessed in conjunction with use of kd 420 Combustion Improver ( which I know works...but not HOW it works), so magnet may possibly be trying to achieve what is already achieved by KD420??? So must now stop KD and if performance does not fall away, then I may be forgiven for considering that magnets and kd achieve the same thing. 2. Similarly, 2 'ecoflow' magnets, one in above car in conjunction with Purnash unit failed to imfluence performance in 7,940 miles and 6 months, and in a Peugeot 106 1.5 diesel over approx 3,100 miles over the same 6 months, also using KD420. 3. I intend to assess the 2 Eco units in 2 council Pest Control vans with approx 2 years known fuel consumption history. 4. A Professor at Portsmouth university informs me that the uni has officially reported that magnets do not enhance combustion. 5. A colleague assessed 4 motor cycle sized magnets ( eco flow units?) by attaching these to the steel fuel lines as close as possible to the individual cylinder injectors in a diesel car. He did not record any improvement but this colleague has recorded similar improvement to myself with KD420 and with ZX1 Friction Eliminator. 6. An Energy Manager whom I hold in very high regard, who is employed in an organisation which serves 'National Interests' assures me that he has recorded improved combustion between 8-22% in both gas and oil fired boilers. Thisis contrary to all my other findings,...could it be that the steady combustion in a boiler is more influenced? I cannot reconcile his observations with my own. and .. 7. My wife and I , and up to approx 200 others, are convinced that american 'Soap Max' magnets are saving us more than 50% of laundry washing powder in our washing machines.and, and ,and. 8. I am convinced that I reduced pain and cured a chronic 2 year tennis elbow condition with a soapmax magnet strapped to my elbow directly over the pain site! So there! I await the rush of comments that these are not very 'scientific tests', which of course I know. But I would like to add thisa particular fuel / technology / or fuel device might well perform to x% in a carefully controlled laboratory test regime. But the scientists or technicians carrying out the lab test would be cautious of stating that it would perform in an identical manner in ,say, a london, New York, or Tokyo bus.They would say if you want to find out how it would perform in a bus under operational tests, then why do you not put it in a bus? This is what I do. Operational tests and anecdotal evidence are still evidence. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jennifer Doty Sent: 07 October 2004 14:36 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan Peggy, Please tell me more, or tell me where to read up and learn more about this new processing. I am very interested in ethanol production, and I work for a well renown NMR research facility. The idea of using magnetic and electric fields is huge, if it can work well. How could I get involved in this research? Thank you -- JRD (Jennifer R. Doty) - Original Message - From:
Re: *****SPAM***** RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota FuelsPlan...MAGNETS
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > ... They do, however, do wonders for lightening the load on the wallets > of the scientifically clueless. > ... Hehe, as the saying goes: It is a powerfull money reducing agent :P -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan...MAGNETS
Magnets do nothing for combustion or joint pain. They do, however, do wonders for lightening the load on the wallets of the scientifically clueless. = = = Original message = = = Hi all MAGNETS TO IMPROVE COMBUSTION?...and OTHER USES ~I have an interest in any means which might improve combustion and this includes magnets. There seems to be an abundance of contradictory anecdotal evidence. If it's of interest, here is mine:- 1. A 'Purnash Fuel King' magnet has made no discernible impact on the performance of a 1.9dti Renault Megane Scenic over 19,120 miles over 1 year and 3 months,as compared with a previously calculated fuel performance history over 4.5 years . It made no difference to 3 MOT emission test results also. HOWEVER, assessed in conjunction with use of kd 420 Combustion Improver ( which I know works...but not HOW it works), so magnet may possibly be trying to achieve what is already achieved by KD420??? So must now stop KD and if performance does not fall away, then I may be forgiven for considering that magnets and kd achieve the same thing. 2. Similarly, 2 'ecoflow' magnets, one in above car in conjunction with Purnash unit failed to imfluence performance in 7,940 miles and 6 months, and in a Peugeot 106 1.5 diesel over approx 3,100 miles over the same 6 months, also using KD420. 3. I intend to assess the 2 Eco units in 2 council Pest Control vans with approx 2 years known fuel consumption history. 4. A Professor at Portsmouth university informs me that the uni has officially reported that magnets do not enhance combustion. 5. A colleague assessed 4 motor cycle sized magnets ( eco flow units?) by attaching these to the steel fuel lines as close as possible to the individual cylinder injectors in a diesel car. He did not record any improvement but this colleague has recorded similar improvement to myself with KD420 and with ZX1 Friction Eliminator. 6. An Energy Manager whom I hold in very high regard, who is employed in an organisation which serves 'National Interests' assures me that he has recorded improved combustion between 8-22% in both gas and oil fired boilers. Thisis contrary to all my other findings,...could it be that the steady combustion in a boiler is more influenced? I cannot reconcile his observations with my own. and .. 7. My wife and I , and up to approx 200 others, are convinced that american 'Soap Max' magnets are saving us more than 50% of laundry washing powder in our washing machines.and, and ,and. 8. I am convinced that I reduced pain and cured a chronic 2 year tennis elbow condition with a soapmax magnet strapped to my elbow directly over the pain site! So there! I await the rush of comments that these are not very 'scientific tests', which of course I know. But I would like to add thisa particular fuel / technology / or fuel device might well perform to x% in a carefully controlled laboratory test regime. But the scientists or technicians carrying out the lab test would be cautious of stating that it would perform in an identical manner in ,say, a london, New York, or Tokyo bus.They would say if you want to find out how it would perform in a bus under operational tests, then why do you not put it in a bus? This is what I do. Operational tests and anecdotal evidence are still evidence. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jennifer Doty Sent: 07 October 2004 14:36 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan Peggy, Please tell me more, or tell me where to read up and learn more about this new processing. I am very interested in ethanol production, and I work for a well renown NMR research facility. The idea of using magnetic and electric fields is huge, if it can work well. How could I get involved in this research? Thank you -- JRD (Jennifer R. Doty) - Original Message - From: "Peggy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:54 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan > Hello MH, > > We are also experimenting with an optional alternative to acid based > processing via another processing innovation (fluid through electric and > magnetic fields--and this is very experimental. A previous study done > in New York published on glucose release from cellulosic material via > the big bad use of irradiation. So now we are considering trials with > alternating fields. Actually the device is our own water-cleaning > apparatus that has pro
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan...MAGNETS
Hi all MAGNETS TO IMPROVE COMBUSTION?...and OTHER USES I have an interest in any means which might improve combustion and this includes magnets. There seems to be an abundance of contradictory anecdotal evidence. If it's of interest, here is mine:- 1. A 'Purnash Fuel King' magnet has made no discernible impact on the performance of a 1.9dti Renault Megane Scenic over 19,120 miles over 1 year and 3 months,as compared with a previously calculated fuel performance history over 4.5 years . It made no difference to 3 MOT emission test results also. HOWEVER, assessed in conjunction with use of kd 420 Combustion Improver ( which I know works...but not HOW it works), so magnet may possibly be trying to achieve what is already achieved by KD420??? So must now stop KD and if performance does not fall away, then I may be forgiven for considering that magnets and kd achieve the same thing. 2. Similarly, 2 'ecoflow' magnets, one in above car in conjunction with Purnash unit failed to imfluence performance in 7,940 miles and 6 months, and in a Peugeot 106 1.5 diesel over approx 3,100 miles over the same 6 months, also using KD420. 3. I intend to assess the 2 Eco units in 2 council Pest Control vans with approx 2 years known fuel consumption history. 4. A Professor at Portsmouth university informs me that the uni has officially reported that magnets do not enhance combustion. 5. A colleague assessed 4 motor cycle sized magnets ( eco flow units?) by attaching these to the steel fuel lines as close as possible to the individual cylinder injectors in a diesel car. He did not record any improvement but this colleague has recorded similar improvement to myself with KD420 and with ZX1 Friction Eliminator. 6. An Energy Manager whom I hold in very high regard, who is employed in an organisation which serves 'National Interests' assures me that he has recorded improved combustion between 8-22% in both gas and oil fired boilers. Thisis contrary to all my other findings,...could it be that the steady combustion in a boiler is more influenced? I cannot reconcile his observations with my own. and .. 7. My wife and I , and up to approx 200 others, are convinced that american 'Soap Max' magnets are saving us more than 50% of laundry washing powder in our washing machines.and, and ,and. 8. I am convinced that I reduced pain and cured a chronic 2 year tennis elbow condition with a soapmax magnet strapped to my elbow directly over the pain site! So there! I await the rush of comments that these are not very 'scientific tests', which of course I know. But I would like to add thisa particular fuel / technology / or fuel device might well perform to x% in a carefully controlled laboratory test regime. But the scientists or technicians carrying out the lab test would be cautious of stating that it would perform in an identical manner in ,say, a london, New York, or Tokyo bus.They would say if you want to find out how it would perform in a bus under operational tests, then why do you not put it in a bus? This is what I do. Operational tests and anecdotal evidence are still evidence. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jennifer Doty Sent: 07 October 2004 14:36 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan Peggy, Please tell me more, or tell me where to read up and learn more about this new processing. I am very interested in ethanol production, and I work for a well renown NMR research facility. The idea of using magnetic and electric fields is huge, if it can work well. How could I get involved in this research? Thank you -- JRD (Jennifer R. Doty) - Original Message - From: "Peggy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:54 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan > Hello MH, > > We are also experimenting with an optional alternative to acid based > processing via another processing innovation (fluid through electric and > magnetic fields--and this is very experimental. A previous study done > in New York published on glucose release from cellulosic material via > the big bad use of irradiation. So now we are considering trials with > alternating fields. Actually the device is our own water-cleaning > apparatus that has proved 5 log reduction in microbes in a stream of > water. So, I'm not real sure about your statement about acid > hydrolysis. There are many steps and inno
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan
Hello Jennifer, We welcome collaborative researchers to discuss joining in potential projects. Does your organization apply for grants and/ or have set-aside funds to do the testing. At this point we plan to use coffee grinders on cotton balls and cooking cornstarch in the kitchen to make our slurry water for testing both five and six carbon sugars. Because the potential technology offers many advantages, we want to first use it in conjunction with all our other innovations that are assisting low-cost fuel ethanol production. When testing the outcome of glucose production, we use color sensitive strips for diabetic urine glucose indication. It would be nice to afford some state-of-the art equipment that will register glucose production more accurately. Once we have simple proof-of-concept, then we begin some very focused (and expensive) test protocol development. We believe that we may be funded in the near future, but that is now viewed as "the future". At this time, our treatment apparatus has undergone about eight upgrades and we are very near commercial, production manufacturing for water-cleaning specialty. Using the same in-line design can be of immense importance in peripheral application development in time and costs (providing it does the job well enough). Then we must dedicate more time to energy conservation. Because our fuel ethanol stills also come with electrical generators, we will have to do some serious cost analysis on energy use and consumption. Luckily our feedstock demands are not costly because we use total biomass processing. Please write me off list to tell me more about your personal projects, interests (vita), and your organization. Many large companies like to assume that they take the cake and lick off the icing as well, so we would need a good understanding with associates about shared rights as patents develop. Individual professors are always a joy to work with. Educational institutions have shown a tendency toward greed, especially those that have established a "good" reputation for receiving royalties in the past. I guess that one reason we have been slow to move forward is that too often restrictions have been placed on potential partnerships by the larger organization. Our patent holder for the core patent of the E&M device is a retired physicist and also a retired university professor. I have the rights to the next add-on development patents. Previously, when writing grants that included his institution, the budgets would be so top heavy with expenses, that the total sum looked unreal in expenses. Finally, I insisted that we forge ahead individually as home-based research to progress. And we have done this costing our board members a great deal in personal funds and non-paid dedication to time investment. I guess what I am saying is that we are not ready to give anything away... but we will be very interested in an association that recognizes our past investment in time and money. Even with a non-disclosure agreement, we will take it slow in the beginning. I hope that you understand my caution about not discussing technical aspects prematurely. Thanks for your email, Peggy Peggy G Korth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Email -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jennifer Doty Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 7:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan Peggy, Please tell me more, or tell me where to read up and learn more about this new processing. I am very interested in ethanol production, and I work for a well renown NMR research facility. The idea of using magnetic and electric fields is huge, if it can work well. How could I get involved in this research? Thank you -- JRD (Jennifer R. Doty) - Original Message - From: "Peggy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:54 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan > Hello MH, > > We are also experimenting with an optional alternative to acid based > processing via another processing innovation (fluid through electric and > magnetic fields--and this is very experimental. A previous study done > in New York published on glucose release from cellulosic material via > the big bad use of irradiation. So now we are considering trials with > alternating fields. Actually the device is our own water-cleaning > apparatus that has proved 5 log reduction in microbes in a stream of > water. So, I'm not real sure about your statement about acid > hydrolysis. There are many steps and innovations involved. Please > qualify your question. I see my message as encouragement for > alternative biomass feedstock, alternative biomass processing > techniques, and alternative ways to address concerns while bolstering > rural eco
Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan
Peggy, Please tell me more, or tell me where to read up and learn more about this new processing. I am very interested in ethanol production, and I work for a well renown NMR research facility. The idea of using magnetic and electric fields is huge, if it can work well. How could I get involved in this research? Thank you -- JRD (Jennifer R. Doty) - Original Message - From: "Peggy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:54 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan > Hello MH, > > We are also experimenting with an optional alternative to acid based > processing via another processing innovation (fluid through electric and > magnetic fields--and this is very experimental. A previous study done > in New York published on glucose release from cellulosic material via > the big bad use of irradiation. So now we are considering trials with > alternating fields. Actually the device is our own water-cleaning > apparatus that has proved 5 log reduction in microbes in a stream of > water. So, I'm not real sure about your statement about acid > hydrolysis. There are many steps and innovations involved. Please > qualify your question. I see my message as encouragement for > alternative biomass feedstock, alternative biomass processing > techniques, and alternative ways to address concerns while bolstering > rural economic development. It seems to me that Keith's post today > highlighting Argentina's decline in individual and small community > interests is a good example of what not to do. > > We don't want to immobilize and invigorate the masses. We want to > encourage farmers to consider their alternatives. We also think that it > is possible to just say "no" when faced with options that are not earth > friendly. The masses live in cities and absorb media and become fat. > (Obesity--National Geographic lead article from a couple of months ago.) > The masses have been taught to be gluttonous by advertising and parental > indulgence. Self-sufficiency by my standards includes community > cooperation. Who do I want to invigorate??? "People who can make a > difference" and the people who take the time to participate in this > Internet exchange are a good starting point. > Thanks for the email. You make us think, and that is good. > Best wishes, > Peggy > > > > Subject: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan > > > > Governor Pawlenty Announces Plans to > > > Double Ethanol Level in Gasoline and > > > Reduce State Gasoline Consumption by 50% -- > > > Sep 27, 2004 > > > http://www.governor.state.mn.us/Tpaw_View_Article.asp?artid=1120 > > > > > > ~ Plan also includes greater use of hybrid vehicles ~ > > > > Good luck Gov. However, we hope to change the fuel ethanol business > to > > be total biomass production and not based on an expensive food crop. > > And the existing corn producers are doing a great job with their > > products. We salute them and look forward to joining forces toward a > > united effort. And its also fine for them to call their state the > > capital just as long as they don't regulate or control the others. > > Examples are good. We too expect to be an excellent example only by > > having many small units in operation. The current processing plants > are > > HUGE and really pump out a substantial amount of fuel. Good job! The > > state's real goal, however, it to attract government research money, > and > > if the US government follows their current tact, they will limit > > production to projects centered on grains. The money powers in the > DOE > > seem to have a kind of tunnel vision when it comes to innovation. > They > > have a "twenty-year" plan. How's that for stiffening creativity? It > > means supporting those that are entrenched in the system allowing > little > > room for new ideas or expansion. Being a center could mean keeping > the > > money for personal projects that tend to be focused on that state's > > agenda. Well, no offense meant for the good work being done. I'd > just > > like to see the money power look around a bit more and stop trying to > > promote their "cush" researchers to always be included in remote > > projects. By insisting that they stay involved, they also require a > > stake in the project thereby keeping control of future expansion, > future > > funding, and the future of biofuels. I'm sure that everyone knows by > > now that our group f
Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan
Thanks Peg, for addressing my questions. I'll await the outcome with interest. Is there any particular plant matter you find promising? > > From my understanding you want to mobilize and invigorate > > the masses using your acid based cellulosic ethanol fuel, > > correct? > > > > What was the subject line used to describe this process > > as well as personal cost for this endeavor? > Hello MH, > > We are also experimenting with an optional alternative to acid based > processing via another processing innovation (fluid through electric and > magnetic fields--and this is very experimental. A previous study done > in New York published on glucose release from cellulosic material via > the big bad use of irradiation. So now we are considering trials with > alternating fields. Actually the device is our own water-cleaning > apparatus that has proved 5 log reduction in microbes in a stream of > water. So, I'm not real sure about your statement about acid > hydrolysis. There are many steps and innovations involved. Please > qualify your question. I see my message as encouragement for > alternative biomass feedstock, alternative biomass processing > techniques, and alternative ways to address concerns while bolstering > rural economic development. It seems to me that Keith's post today > highlighting Argentina's decline in individual and small community > interests is a good example of what not to do. > > We don't want to immobilize and invigorate the masses. We want to > encourage farmers to consider their alternatives. We also think that it > is possible to just say "no" when faced with options that are not earth > friendly. The masses live in cities and absorb media and become fat. > (Obesity--National Geographic lead article from a couple of months ago.) > The masses have been taught to be gluttonous by advertising and parental > indulgence. Self-sufficiency by my standards includes community > cooperation. Who do I want to invigorate??? "People who can make a > difference" and the people who take the time to participate in this > Internet exchange are a good starting point. > Thanks for the email. You make us think, and that is good. > Best wishes, > Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan
Hello MH, We are also experimenting with an optional alternative to acid based processing via another processing innovation (fluid through electric and magnetic fields--and this is very experimental. A previous study done in New York published on glucose release from cellulosic material via the big bad use of irradiation. So now we are considering trials with alternating fields. Actually the device is our own water-cleaning apparatus that has proved 5 log reduction in microbes in a stream of water. So, I'm not real sure about your statement about acid hydrolysis. There are many steps and innovations involved. Please qualify your question. I see my message as encouragement for alternative biomass feedstock, alternative biomass processing techniques, and alternative ways to address concerns while bolstering rural economic development. It seems to me that Keith's post today highlighting Argentina's decline in individual and small community interests is a good example of what not to do. We don't want to immobilize and invigorate the masses. We want to encourage farmers to consider their alternatives. We also think that it is possible to just say "no" when faced with options that are not earth friendly. The masses live in cities and absorb media and become fat. (Obesity--National Geographic lead article from a couple of months ago.) The masses have been taught to be gluttonous by advertising and parental indulgence. Self-sufficiency by my standards includes community cooperation. Who do I want to invigorate??? "People who can make a difference" and the people who take the time to participate in this Internet exchange are a good starting point. Thanks for the email. You make us think, and that is good. Best wishes, Peggy Subject: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Ethanol -was: US Minnesota Fuels Plan > > Governor Pawlenty Announces Plans to > > Double Ethanol Level in Gasoline and > > Reduce State Gasoline Consumption by 50% -- > > Sep 27, 2004 > > http://www.governor.state.mn.us/Tpaw_View_Article.asp?artid=1120 > > > > ~ Plan also includes greater use of hybrid vehicles ~ > Good luck Gov. However, we hope to change the fuel ethanol business to > be total biomass production and not based on an expensive food crop. > And the existing corn producers are doing a great job with their > products. We salute them and look forward to joining forces toward a > united effort. And its also fine for them to call their state the > capital just as long as they don't regulate or control the others. > Examples are good. We too expect to be an excellent example only by > having many small units in operation. The current processing plants are > HUGE and really pump out a substantial amount of fuel. Good job! The > state's real goal, however, it to attract government research money, and > if the US government follows their current tact, they will limit > production to projects centered on grains. The money powers in the DOE > seem to have a kind of tunnel vision when it comes to innovation. They > have a "twenty-year" plan. How's that for stiffening creativity? It > means supporting those that are entrenched in the system allowing little > room for new ideas or expansion. Being a center could mean keeping the > money for personal projects that tend to be focused on that state's > agenda. Well, no offense meant for the good work being done. I'd just > like to see the money power look around a bit more and stop trying to > promote their "cush" researchers to always be included in remote > projects. By insisting that they stay involved, they also require a > stake in the project thereby keeping control of future expansion, future > funding, and the future of biofuels. I'm sure that everyone knows by > now that our group focuses on community cooperative efforts > bootstrapping themselves from their own resources. And many non-food > crops can be exceedingly productive as feedstock for fuel ethanol. > > Best wishes, > Peggy From my understanding you want to mobilize and invigorate the masses using your acid based cellulosic ethanol fuel, correct? What was the subject line used to describe this process as well as personal cost for this endeavor? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [biofuel] Cellulosic ethanol
Climate Change: While climate change and how to deal with it continues to stimulate great debate, there seems to be a growing consensus that biofuels, including ethanol from both grain and cellulosic feedstock, significantly reduce emissions of CO2. Numerous studies in recent years indicate that, compared to fossil fuels, the use of ethanol will reduce emissions of green house gases. While early studies were somewhat conflicting, some studies dating to 1989 (12) indicated that the use of ethanol resulted in lower emissions of green house gases. A 1991 paper(13) from Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) indicates that the net savings of CO2 for ethanol production from corn was in the range of 20%-40% depending on how by-product credits are allocated. The most recent and comprehensive work in this area has been done by Argonne National Laboratory using the GREET Model (greenhouse gases, regulated emissions and energy uses in transportation). This work was done in conjunction with General Motors Corporation, BP, ExxonMobil, and Shell. The study analyzed the ãWell to Wheelä emissions of several fuels.(14) On a ãWell to Tankä basis, GHG emissions values for ethanol are actually negative because of carbon sequestration during growth of corn plants, trees, and grasses. This translates through to significant GHG reductions on a ãWell to Wheelä basis. Herbaceous type crops offer the greatest benefit since they do not require the fossil fuel inputs associated with grain crops. But even grain crops provide significant GHG reduction compared to fossil fuels.(15, 16) As more emphasis is placed on addressing global warming, it is likely our government will continue to explore various strategies to reduce emissions of green house gases. This will result in initiatives that would be favorable to increased ethanol production and use. [ PDF page 52, report page 2-11 ] > From - > "INFRASTRUCTURE REQUIREMENTS FOR > AN EXPANDED FUEL ETHANOL INDUSTRY" > Downstream Alternatives Inc. > January 15, 2002 > From - > Office of Transportation Technologies > Alternative Fuels Data Center > Department of Energy > http://www.afdc.doe.gov/pdfs/6235.pdf PDF > [ 1058k, 550 pages ] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Cellulosic ethanol
Cellulosic Biomass Issues: For the ethanol industry to expand significantly above the five billion gallon annual production level would almost certainly require the use of some form of cellulosic feedstocks. In some cases there may be environmental concerns about how such materials (e.g. agricultural residues, forest thinnings) can safely be removed without impacting erosion, soil nutrients, and natural growth cycles, to cite a few issues. However the amount of materials for sustainable removal of surface residue has been researched and is well defined. Models have been developed which have been validated by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE). Also, in some cases, certain types of feedstocks such as corn stover may have a short harvest window due to weather conditions which could present unique challenges. In addition there could be competing uses for feedstocks. For instance certain wood wastes and materials from municipal solid waste may have other feedstock uses such as for Infrastructure Requirements For An Expanded Fuel Ethanol Industry particle board or recycled paper. The value of such uses could be higher than the materialâs value as an ethanol feedstock, potentially reducing availability of cellulosic feedstocks at economically viable costs. The U.S. DOE is sponsoring ongoing research to reduce the cost of converting biomass feedstocks to ethanol as well as to lower the cost of the feedstock supplies. Previous work has lowered such costs dramatically from those of only a few years ago. However, for biomass feedstock to be competitive, further advancements are needed. The DOE projects that with recent advancements in biotechnology and directed evolution, (11) conversions cost will continue to be reduced. These issues are well beyond the scope of this work and in this study the assumption is made that biomass conversion cost issues will be favorably resolved. The potential for using Municipal Solid Waste as feedstock, as noted above, also introduces uncertainties since there may be competing uses. However there are also other components of MSW that would be available such as green wastes (lawn clippings, prunings, etc.). [ PDF page 49-50, report page 2-8 & 2-9 ] > From - > "INFRASTRUCTURE REQUIREMENTS FOR > AN EXPANDED FUEL ETHANOL INDUSTRY" > Downstream Alternatives Inc. > January 15, 2002 > From - > Office of Transportation Technologies > Alternative Fuels Data Center > Department of Energy > http://www.afdc.doe.gov/pdfs/6235.pdf PDF > [ 1058k, 550 pages ] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Cellulosic ethanol
> From a prior post > http://ens-news.com/ens/apr2002/2002L-04-05-01.html > Environment News Service: > Canada Moves Towards Cleaner Motor Transport > > Mentions several things including > the recognition by the > Canandian Environmental Protection Act 1999 > declaring benzene and acrolein toxic. > Regulating benzene in gasoline. > Gov't funding for "enzymes that break down the fiber > and seek to make the process 10 times faster." > > "Iogen Corporation, an established commercial developer and > manufacturer of industrial enzymes, sells enzyme products to the pulp > and paper, textiles and animal feed industries. The company has built > a $35 million bioethanol demonstration plant in Ottawa, the first of > its kind in the world to integrate cellulase enzyme research and > development into the industrial process required to manufacture > bioethanol fuel." > - > > > CALIFORNIA ENERGY COMMISSION > "COSTS AND BENEFITS OF A > BIOMASS-TO-ETHANOL PRODUCTION INDUSTRY IN CALIFORNIA" > COMMISSION REPORT > MARCH 2001 > P500-01-002 > http://www.energy.ca.gov/reports/2001-04-03_500-01-002+002A.PDF > [ 197 pages about 1050K ] Note another previous post: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=13745&list=BIOFUEL Shell buys stake in bioethanol fuel firm Iogen CANADA: May 9, 2002 Also: Ethanol from cellulose http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose "Wood-Ethanol Report: Technology Review", Environment Canada 1999 -- good overview of the problem and the current solutions on offer. http://www.pyr.ec.gc.ca/ep/wet/section16.html Fuel From Sawdust -- by Mike Brown (from Acres, USA, 19 June 1983): Conversion of cellulose, such as sawdust, cornstalks, newspaper and other substances, to alcohol -- "a fairly uncomplicated and straightforward process". Go to the Biofuels Library. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html Arkenol Inc. is a pioneer in processing cellulose biomas into ethanol: agricultural wastes, straw, leaves, grass clippings, sawdust or old newspapers. The company uses proprietary concentrated acid hydrolysis technology and is in the final development stages for a 48 million litre per year biorefinery in Sacramento, California processing rice straw. http://www.arkenol.com The Iogen Corporation of Canada is "the leader in developing and manufacturing ethanol-from-cellulose". The Iogen process is an enzymatic hydrolysis process for converting lignocellulosics to ethanol -- uses steam explosion pretreatment pioneered by the company and Iogen's proprietary enzymes. http://www.iogen.ca/fuels.htm BC International Corporation uses a genetically modified organism to produce ethanol from biomass wastes such as agricultural residues, municipal waste, and forest thinnings. Two-stage dilute acid hydrolysis process for the preparation of the sugar streams and two separate fermentations although both use the same organism. http://www.bcintlcorp.com/ "Ethanol Production in Hawaii", a "pre-feasibility" study who a focus on ethanol from cellulose. Includes comparison of the different processes: simultaneous saccharification and fermentation; concentrated acid hydrolysis, neutralization and fermentation; ammonia disruption, hydrolysis and fermentation; steam disruption, hydrolysis and fermentation; acid disruption and transgenic microorganism fermentation; concentrated acid hydrolysis, acid recycle and fermentation; and acidified acetone extraction, hydrolysis and fermentation. http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/ethanol/ethano94.html Good list of references: http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/ethanol/refs.html Genencore & DOE Move Closer to Fuel Ethanol from Biomass Cellulose - See: Biomass Conversion with Enzymes: http://www.newuses.org/EG/EG-23/23genetic.html Mustard Plants Produce Low-Cost Enzymes for Making Ethanol -- Researchers at the University of Colorado (CU) at Boulder have developed a potentially low- cost method of producing the cellulase enzyme for converting woody biomass materials into ethanol. http://www.colorado.edu/PublicRelations/NewsReleases/2001/1244.html New Research May Reduce Renewable Fuel Costs http://ens-news.com/ens/may2001/2001L-05-24-09.html And here's one that went wrong, and could have gone horribly wrong: http://www.safe2use.com/ca-ipm/01-02-05-report.htm Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Cellulosic ethanol
From a prior post http://ens-news.com/ens/apr2002/2002L-04-05-01.html Environment News Service: Canada Moves Towards Cleaner Motor Transport Mentions several things including the recognition by the Canandian Environmental Protection Act 1999 declaring benzene and acrolein toxic. Regulating benzene in gasoline. Gov't funding for "enzymes that break down the fiber and seek to make the process 10 times faster." "Iogen Corporation, an established commercial developer and manufacturer of industrial enzymes, sells enzyme products to the pulp and paper, textiles and animal feed industries. The company has built a $35 million bioethanol demonstration plant in Ottawa, the first of its kind in the world to integrate cellulase enzyme research and development into the industrial process required to manufacture bioethanol fuel." - CALIFORNIA ENERGY COMMISSION "COSTS AND BENEFITS OF A BIOMASS-TO-ETHANOL PRODUCTION INDUSTRY IN CALIFORNIA" COMMISSION REPORT MARCH 2001 P500-01-002 http://www.energy.ca.gov/reports/2001-04-03_500-01-002+002A.PDF [ 197 pages about 1050K ] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Cellulosic ethanol
> I like that!! Now that's a RESPONSIBLE way of taking > care of our earthly home. Taking the "crap" end of > industrial processes ... and finding a way to loop it > back into the "mouth-end". So that junk in the > landfill suddenly gets looked upon a gold mine ... > then having our profit-driven businesses lust upon it > ... and suck it all up!! Wow!! > > By the way ... the cost. I think that the resulting > cost saving measured in > the-amount-that-we've-saved-the-earth-from-damage FAR > outweighs any loss in dollars. Let's do it! > > Curtis > --- MH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [The following MH found at] Copyright 2001, Laurence I. Peterson and Matthew E. Hermes College of Science and Mathematics Kennesaw State University 1000 Chastain Rd. Kennesaw, GA 30114 http://www.chemcases.com > Substantial reductions in ethanol production costs may > be made possible by replacing corn with less expensive > cellulose-based feedstocks. Cellulosic feedstocks > include agricultural wastes, grasses and woods, and > other low-value biomass such as municipal waste. > > Although cellulosic materials are less expensive than > corn, they are more costly to convert to ethanol > because of the extensive processing required. [Well Curtis and others read on link to webpage for - drawbacks, EPA, US Congress and California.] Fuels and Society C: 24. Back to Ethanol http://chemcases.com/converter/converter-24.htm Ethanol and Decision Making There are much larger issues with ethanol than simply whether it can be used to fill in for MTBE. -snip 4. LONG TERM RESOURCE BASE: How close are we to establishing a renewable liquid fuel system using cellulosic biomass as a feedstock instead of farm crops? The California Energy Commission ethanol plan of March, 2001 includes cellulose biomass refineries, which also part of the Bush national energy plan of May, 2001. Are these types of facilities technologically feasible? 5. FUEL ECONOMY: Although ethanol has fewer BTUs than gasoline, its higher octane value does allow for more efficient operation in internal combustion engines with higher compression ratios. In other words, an ordinary gasoline engine may get lower mileage, but a better adapted engine would not. One interesting new twist in this area is a proposal to allow auto companies to meet fuel efficiency requirements by creating cars that can use either pure gasoline or pure ethanol. The Sierra Club calls this proposal a greenwash." http://www.sierraclub.org/globalwarming/articles/greenwashing.asp [How to make a GM SUV into a 80 mpg green vehicle via ethanol.] Copyright 2001, Laurence I. Peterson and Matthew E. Hermes College of Science and Mathematics Kennesaw State University 1000 Chastain Rd. Kennesaw, GA 30114 http://www.chemcases.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Cellulosic ethanol
I like that!! Now that's a RESPONSIBLE way of taking care of our earthly home. Taking the "crap" end of industrial processes ... and finding a way to loop it back into the "mouth-end". So that junk in the landfill suddenly gets looked upon a gold mine ... then having our profit-driven businesses lust upon it ... and suck it all up!! Wow!! By the way ... the cost. I think that the resulting cost saving measured in the-amount-that-we've-saved-the-earth-from-damage FAR outweighs any loss in dollars. Let's do it! Curtis --- MH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Substantial reductions in ethanol production costs may be made possible by replacing corn with less expensive cellulose-based feedstocks. Cellulosic feedstocks include agricultural wastes, grasses and woods, and other low-value biomass such as municipal waste. Although cellulosic materials are less expensive than corn, they are more costly to convert to ethanol because of the extensive processing required. = Join the Revolution! http://thincnet.com/revolution9/downline/vdownline.html?9107 __ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
