Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1354
Hi all, just want to comment on some stuff Phil posted. " After seeing people in Europe starve during the early 1900's the US government adopted what we farmers and ranchers call the "cheap food policy". Our government never wanted to see the people in the US go hungry like the Europeans did. Consequently the US government has encouraged overproduction of food in the US so it would always be available (in surplus) and be available at a cheap price to the consumer." I think this is a very good policy one of which every government in the world should adopt. "This food commodity will always have a consumer waiting to buy it especially if it is cheaper in price. The obvious evidence of this is the millions and millions of starving people in the world that go without food every day. These poor people are not concerned with a third car or bigger house. These people are not concerned with even a single car or house. For these millions of people their first and only concern, even above a simple hut to live in, is FOOD- where will I get something to eat today so I can simply stay alive for tomorrow." The mere fact that these people are poor means that they are not productive enough or do not produce anything of economic value to other people. That is why they can't earn the money to buy food. Most of the time they have to plant their own food for survival but going up against corporate farming, it would still be alot cheaper just to buy this than plant it yourself. Imagine yourself as a citizen of a third world country. The only thing your skilled for is agriculture and the food that is being imported is alot cheaper and better than what you produce... now what would you do. "We as farmers and ranchers in the US are faced with this simple problem unique only to food. The more we produce to stay in business the cheaper it will get and we will never fill the demand for food in the world based on these criteria. 100 years ago the market for US produced food was only the US. Now we are in a global market for food. This has changed for the same reasons other products are in a global market - the main reason being world transportation and communication are faster and more efficient and products can be produced on one side of the globe and sold on another side within days or weeks instead of months or years. Because of this any surplus food produced in the US, and the world for that matter, is discounted in price sold and even given away to poor people in underdeveloped countries." Sometimes the best way to help someone is not helping them at all. Giving away food at unrealistic prices does not promote self sufficiency, it promotes dependency and kills the hard working people who try to be self sufficient. Its the American govt that sells/gives these to underdeveloped countries as aid and gets these underdeveloped countries hooked on cheap food. "Until that need for food by underdeveloped countries is met there is no hope for US agriculture to increase our own prices. We can never met that need as long as these countries have no money to buy food that is priced based on our cost of production. They will continue however to consume our surplus at a price much lower than our cost of production thus always driving our price downward. If these poor people had the money to buy food from US farmers "at the cost of production plus reasonable profit" I am convinced the US could feed the entire world!!!" If you can't afford something, you should not enjoy that luxury even if it was given to you. The American gov't gives alot of food aid around the world to needy countries as good will while buying the same food at US market prices to support farmers. If the American Gov't didn't give out these excess food. They would have had to destroy the excess to maintain the price for farmers and then the farmers would be told not to produce that much because there is no demand for it anyway. If not for this system of supporting farmers and supporting "friends" there would be still too many farmers producing too much for too few Americans. I said Americans because in this case the food would be too expensive for anyone else to buy. "You might say - well then, why don't the farmers and ranchers get together and produce less, create a shortage, and raise their prices to a profitable level. Besides the fact that this could never be done given the dynamics of agriculture in the US and the moral issues it would raise in the US and the world, our government would never allow this to happen because of the cheap food policy I explained earlier. This would be a monopoly in its simplest form dealing with a basic necessity for life-food. The government simply couldn't and wouldn't allow this to happen. Consequently we as farmers and ranchers are left to seek help from the government so that we can stay in business to produce the food necessary to feed the US and
Chickens eating eggs - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1354
Hi Thor >Keith, > >Interesting article and study, but also very >unsettling. I had a hard time accepting this study >that is premised on cannibalism, even though a bit of >looking on the web revealed that Cornish chicks tend >to be cannabilistic. I wonder why they didn't use >rats or weasels, or something similar that eats eggs. > >thor I guess chickens are what she had. I'm not disturbed by it, though I'm against the cannibalistic practices so often found in agriculture now, especially the more insane forms of it, such as feeding dead sheep to cows - I was against that long before the dire consequences became apparent. That and other such practices are highly unnatural (and completely unnecessary), whereas this isn't unnatural, really. It happens, though it's usually seen as a problem, such as this message to a Homesteading list today: >We also started in with chickens last October. We have >11 hens and one rooster. The varieties are mixed, Bantams, Rhode >Island Reds and a breed that we don't know what they are. These ones >are rather large and are predominantly black in colour. The chickens >are what I have the questions about. Some of the hens, the large >black ones are eating freshly laid eggs. Can anyone shed some light >as to why they do and to how to possibly stop that particular >practice? We have been feeding back egg shells to the chicken, but >not before the egg shells have been thoroughly dried and sufficiently >crushed. Anyway, chickens are carnivores, or rather omnivores, and there's nothing about their eating eggs that might distort the results of the study. In a way it's rather apt - most of the contents of an egg is intended as food for the embryo, and should thus be excellent food for chicks, while adding in the embryo itself is just, well, gravy I suppose. What's much more unsettling IMO is the implication that industrialized "food" is less nourishing than no food at all. There are plenty more such indications, all adding up to a damning picture, very unsettling indeed. Nothing new though, just ever worse and worse. See this, for instance: The Medical Testament Introduction http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/medtest/medtest_intro.html Medical Testament http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/medtest/medtest.html Plenty more there, eg: The Wheel of Health by G.T. Wrench http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_WoH/WoHToC.html Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price http://journeytoforever.org/text_price.html This Famishing World by Alfred W. McCann http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Famish/famworldToC.html Etc etc. Quite old books yes (and never been superceded), but don't think "progress" has solved these problems, quite the opposite, sorry to say. Regards Keith >- >Keith wrote: > >"Anyway, as a final comment perhaps, here's a study >that found that the production from such >industrialized "farming" operations, in this case >eggs, were less nutritious than no eggs at all. > >http://www.rhealiving.com/gcrfarm/farm_and_poultry/Free_Range_Eggs_Study.htm >Free-Range Eggs vs. Grocery Store Eggs in Chicks" Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1354
FARMERS OPINION I have been a "lurker" for several years. I enjoy hearing the opinions and thoughts of all of you out there posting to this board. I commend you for sharing your ideas and technology with regards to any type of alternative fuel (biofuel or not). I also commend you for allowing discussion between posters of off-topic subjects. I think most of these off-topic conversations are indeed connected with our energy supply here in the USA and the world in general. The creation and use of "any" alternative energy does have a place on this board. With that said let me introduce myself and explain my personal farming operation so that you might better understand how my opinions have been formed over the years. I sincerely believe that my personal, financial, and farming experiences are probably a good example of some "real farmers" in the USA today. I live in the Big Horn Basin of Wyoming, am married, and have two sons ages 19 and 21. I have been farming since 1981. My father was a farmer as was his father. My great grandfather immigrated to the US around the turn of the century from the Volga Valley in Russia-Germany. He was a farmer as well. I raise sugar beets, malt barley, dry beans, and alfalfa seed. I farm about 500 acres of irrigated land. I (and the bank) own 350 acres and I rent 150 acres. For every dollar of assets I have 75 cents worth of debt - this ratio fluctuates from year to year by as much as 10%. My total debt on land and equipment is close to $500,000. On a typical year I will borrow at least $200,000 to operate my farm. At the end of the year I will pay back the $200,000 plus interest. I will also make an interest and principal payment on the land and equipment debt. Every spring when I plant a crop I make the following assumptions.. weather will be good irrigation water will be adequate interest rates will remain constant prices for fertilizer, seed, pesticides, labor, etc will not go up more that I have projected prices for the crops that I raise will not go down any lower than I have projected I will be able to work every day and not be laid up by some health problem or accident my estimated yields for each crop will be at least what I have projected and no lower I realize that other types of business make similar projections of expenses, income and productivity. The difference is that other businesses set their own price for their goods and services. They all work with similar costs and are rewarded if they can manage financial, labor, overhead, etc. expenses better than their competitor down the street or across the nation. If they do this they have a higher profit margin and will stay in business unlike some of their competitors. As you read this I am sure all of you think - so what, farms and ranches that produce food are no different. Well I am here to tell you there is a lot of difference. With the typical business in any community across the US there is a finite number of customers for the product or service that is offered for sale. If there are 100 gas stations and 50 clothing stores in small city and there are only customers for half this many gas stations and clothing stores then 50% of them will go out of business in a short time. If somehow some of them are able to lower their costs and consequently lower their prices to consumers then they will remain in business. At the same time this happens, all of their competitors have to lower their prices to stay competitive. Wall-Mart is a good example of this. Some small businesses can compete with Wall-Mart and some can't. What happened to the finite number of customers you ask. They are still there. As the price of goods and services go down to the consumer they will buy more clothes, gas, cars, toys, homes, etc. If there income has gone up they will even consume more of these items. The cheaper these goods and services become the more people will buy them. There is a limit to this scenario on the production side of these products. If the producers of these goods and services can no longer lower their costs and consequently their prices then the finite number of customers comes into play. At some point if prices remain the same the finite number of customers will limit the number or size of businesses that remain profitable. The average consumer will buy a third car, a tenth suit or dress, a larger home, take another vacation, etc. if given the financial means to do so but there is a point where this stops based on the finite number of consumers. The production of food from farms and ranches in the USA and the world does have its similarities to other goods and services but it also has some huge differences. Food is a basic necessity for life unlike the third car, larger home, etc. There is an infinite number of consumers for cheap
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1354
Keith, Interesting article and study, but also very unsettling. I had a hard time accepting this study that is premised on cannibalism, even though a bit of looking on the web revealed that Cornish chicks tend to be cannabilistic. I wonder why they didn't use rats or weasels, or something similar that eats eggs. thor - Keith wrote: "Anyway, as a final comment perhaps, here's a study that found that the production from such industrialized "farming" operations, in this case eggs, were less nutritious than no eggs at all. http://www.rhealiving.com/gcrfarm/farm_and_poultry/Free_Range_Eggs_Study.htm Free-Range Eggs vs. Grocery Store Eggs in Chicks" __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
