Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
I don't really want to get into this debate but I think we do get something out of that 50%, unlike slaves. We have roads, social services, all variety of things we depend on. If anything, we are condemning our children to slavery, to pay off the massive debt we are incurring at every level (federal, state, individual). When creditors come back to bit us, then we will be slaves. So I guess I would be willing to even pay a little more in taxes to avoid condemning our nation to a state of real servitude in the future. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma... In a message dated 2/22/2004 10:50:48 AM Central Standard Time, Slavery was a real thing. It was well documented. It is alive and well in more parts of the world than I care to know. Lets see, now. A slave is a worker who is not allowed to keep the product (or wages) of his labor. In the old south, a slave produced about twice what it cost to keep him; 50% of his labor went to the master. In 21st. century America, about half our income goes to the master (the IRS, mostly, plus sales taxes, etc.). Is that progress or slavery? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
I don't really want to get into this debate but I think we do get something out of that 50%, unlike slaves. We have roads, social services, all variety of things we depend on. The slaves of the old South got something for their 50%: clothes, housing, health care, roads, all variety of things he depended on. Master behaved much as today's nanny state does, except the overhead (office buildings, bureaucrats, etc.) was lower. Of course, if the slave tried to run away, armed men might go after him. If I don't pay my taxes, armed men will come after me. I may not be flogged, but I can be imprisoned and impoverished. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
In a message dated 2/22/2004 10:50:48 AM Central Standard Time, Slavery was a real thing. It was well documented. It is alive and well in more parts of the world than I care to know. Lets see, now. A slave is a worker who is not allowed to keep the product (or wages) of his labor. In the old south, a slave produced about twice what it cost to keep him; 50% of his labor went to the master. In 21st. century America, about half our income goes to the master (the IRS, mostly, plus sales taxes, etc.). Is that progress or slavery? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: The end of popular soverignty (was RE: [biofuel] RE: moral dilemma)
amen to that brother! paul Bryan Brah [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you're mad about the results of the 2000 election, you should be outraged at this revelation. We haven't had control of our government for a very long time. In 1912 former republican president Teddy Roosevelt was coaxed out of retirement to run as a Bull Moose and spoil the election for the incumbent republican president Taft thus giving the presidency to an unknown democrat named Woodrow Wilson. Under Wilson the 16th and 17th amendments to the constitution were forced through the legislature (creating the IRS, and changing the election of senators from the state legislatures to popular vote). Also passed under Woody was the Nelson Aldrich sponsored Federal Reserve Act (Aldrich was the republican whip in the Senate, Chairman of the National Monetary Commission, business associate of J.P. Morgan, father-in-law to John D. Rockefeller, Jr.). The Federal Reserve act was written in secret at Jekyll Island, Georgia by the leading industrial-capitalists of the time led by none other than Paul Warburg (Daddy Warbucks from Little Orphan Annie, a partner at Kuhn Loeb Company, and the first chairman of the Fed). The Federal Reserve Act effectively hijacked our national sovereignty by vesting control of our money supply in a private banking system owned by the Morgans and Rockefellers, and connected to Rothschilds. Since 1908, no president has been elected without their approval. Our ability to change the government has been drastically reduced and declines further still. Today, the only chance we have to affect change is on the local and state levels, before the candidates get co-opted and corrupted. Is there a correlation between the loss of popular sovereignty and the rise of the Federal Reserve Banking System? Is it mere coincidence that the federal debt is equal to the assets of the Federal Reserve member banks (and their subsidiary corporations)? Is it chance that these same corporate sponsors give huge sums of money to both parties, and the candidate with the most cash always wins? I suppose it doesn't matter that every president since Eisenhower regardless of his party affiliation has been a member of the CFR. On the other hand, this is all just a bunch of paranoid hooey. If we all just vote democrat in the next election, every thing will be hunky dory. Yeah right! -BRAH -Original Message- From: Tonya Chambers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 12:58 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] RE: moral dilemma I think in time people will wake up to things like the skull and bones candidates, the republicrats are two sides on the same coin. I am a member of the constitution party. www.constitutionparty.com Start getting signatures to get someone moral on the ballot. I am new to the group and am just now trying to make biofuel. Im still getting the tools i need.Can anyone point me to the best place to get methanol or ethanol to use in the fuel? Thanks. Mike PS. see www.norfed.com to learn a little about why our system of currency will collapse. The dollar has lost 30% of its value in the last year. Ever since the Johnson admin. took all silver backing off of currency, he plunged america into an abyss of nonredeemable debt paper. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
The end of popular soverignty (was RE: [biofuel] RE: moral dilemma)
If you're mad about the results of the 2000 election, you should be outraged at this revelation. We haven't had control of our government for a very long time. In 1912 former republican president Teddy Roosevelt was coaxed out of retirement to run as a Bull Moose and spoil the election for the incumbent republican president Taft thus giving the presidency to an unknown democrat named Woodrow Wilson. Under Wilson the 16th and 17th amendments to the constitution were forced through the legislature (creating the IRS, and changing the election of senators from the state legislatures to popular vote). Also passed under Woody was the Nelson Aldrich sponsored Federal Reserve Act (Aldrich was the republican whip in the Senate, Chairman of the National Monetary Commission, business associate of J.P. Morgan, father-in-law to John D. Rockefeller, Jr.). The Federal Reserve act was written in secret at Jekyll Island, Georgia by the leading industrial-capitalists of the time led by none other than Paul Warburg (Daddy Warbucks from Little Orphan Annie, a partner at Kuhn Loeb Company, and the first chairman of the Fed). The Federal Reserve Act effectively hijacked our national sovereignty by vesting control of our money supply in a private banking system owned by the Morgans and Rockefellers, and connected to Rothschilds. Since 1908, no president has been elected without their approval. Our ability to change the government has been drastically reduced and declines further still. Today, the only chance we have to affect change is on the local and state levels, before the candidates get co-opted and corrupted. Is there a correlation between the loss of popular sovereignty and the rise of the Federal Reserve Banking System? Is it mere coincidence that the federal debt is equal to the assets of the Federal Reserve member banks (and their subsidiary corporations)? Is it chance that these same corporate sponsors give huge sums of money to both parties, and the candidate with the most cash always wins? I suppose it doesn't matter that every president since Eisenhower regardless of his party affiliation has been a member of the CFR. On the other hand, this is all just a bunch of paranoid hooey. If we all just vote democrat in the next election, every thing will be hunky dory. Yeah right! -BRAH -Original Message- From: Tonya Chambers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 12:58 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] RE: moral dilemma I think in time people will wake up to things like the skull and bones candidates, the republicrats are two sides on the same coin. I am a member of the constitution party. www.constitutionparty.com Start getting signatures to get someone moral on the ballot. I am new to the group and am just now trying to make biofuel. Im still getting the tools i need.Can anyone point me to the best place to get methanol or ethanol to use in the fuel? Thanks. Mike PS. see www.norfed.com to learn a little about why our system of currency will collapse. The dollar has lost 30% of its value in the last year. Ever since the Johnson admin. took all silver backing off of currency, he plunged america into an abyss of nonredeemable debt paper. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
In a message dated 2/21/2004 2:01:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Surprise? No way. They knew for months that it was coming, it was just a matter of when. You know you are going to die; it's just a matter of when. So, if you are mortally wounded by a burglar at 3 am, it won't be a surprise? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1The WoMD-justified attack on Pearl-Baghdad. A day which will live in Iraqi INFAMY. Sounds pretty eerie ... saying it like that. Reminds me of what my Dad use to always say. When the White Man attacks the Indian Village ... it's called a MILITARY VICTORY. When the Indians attack a White Village ... it's called a MASSACRE. Curtis - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq, killing thousands of civilians, was morally justified cite the following beliefs. If they were sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then the war was justified. 1. Saddam Hussein was a nasty man. ---snip-- I am old enough to remember December 7, 1941, when the Japanese staged a pre-emptive surprise attack on the U.S fleet at Peral Harbor, killing 254 civilians. They sincerely believed the following: 1. FDR was a nasty man. --message truncated- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
Oops! My mistake. The mail software automatically puts that in and I forgot to clean it up. Sorry about that. :( Chris On Friday, February 20, 2004, at 09:23 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Chris Beamis wrote: On Friday, February 20, 2004, at 05:18 AM, Keith Addison wrote: There is nothing here that I wrote, it's all from Chris Stratford and Chris Beamis. Please be a little more careful in saying who wrote what. Keith Addison Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
On Saturday, February 21, 2004, at 03:27 PM, Kris Book wrote: The worst part is that the masses can't see that this particlar war like hundreds of wars before it, was started to make somebody an extra dollar they really didn't need. The corporate bullies can always fake the reason for a war, or sucker some fool into starting the war for them. After all, they must stay in game shape and since it's always young men who are the bulk that are killed in wars, they will never relax their grip. And that's good for population/power control. All they have to do is keep us bickering among ourselves and working for the almighty dollar and the inmates run the assylum without any guards. We could easily defeat them, since we out number them about 99 to 1, unfortunately the only weapon I know that will work is communication. And since humans will go to such great lengths to avoid communicating, we are stuck in a huge Catch 22. Excellent thinking. But if it is true that humans communicate poorly in some circumstances, and communicate very well in other circumstances, then there may be a way out of the Catch-22. All we need to do is figure out how to get us all to be excellent communicators all the time! And if 'us all' includes 'them' then we don't even need to defeat 'them', all we've got to do is commence using our ever improving communications skills for finding real solutions that are good for us all. Simple! Ha ha. Chris When we finally learn that all humans are equal and every parent on the planet wants the same good fortune (and deserves it) for their offspring, then corporate rule will just fade away without a shot being fired. Until that day, remember virtually all politics/governments are evil and not looking out for anyone except the top 1% of the money holders. kris --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Enteresting corrolary. Nicely put. Worth giving some arduous thought. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma... Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq, killing thousands of civilians, was morally justified cite the following beliefs. If they were sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then the war was justified. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links The Pledge of Allegiance does not end with Hail Satan -- From Bart Simpson's chalkboard writings. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
If I new the burglar was coming sometime in the next few nights, and he was packing a firearm, I know that there is a good chance I might get hurt. So no, I would not be surprised if it happened. Just a little disappointed I didn't get him first. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 16:54 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma... In a message dated 2/21/2004 2:01:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Surprise? No way. They knew for months that it was coming, it was just a matter of when. You know you are going to die; it's just a matter of when. So, if you are mortally wounded by a burglar at 3 am, it won't be a surprise? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
Just a few pointers with regards to your last comments. Slavery was a real thing. It was well documented. Saddam's WMD (or should I say Bush's WMD) were undetermined. The Threat was overplayed. Administrations will do stoopid things to justify their existance. Too bad they document it as well. fred At 04:03 AM 2/22/2004 +, you wrote: After reading this i just wanted to say you are right. I am NOT racist, but Lincoln used slavery and the Emancipation Proclamation to justify the civil war when it was over half way finished. This is the same propaganda that Bush used with WMD's. Its similar to the hegelian effect. I have a declassified paper right from the governments site that explains how they staged the whole cuban missile crisis. Their own document. Says they had friendly cubans stage riots for the media. Says they had a pilot fly below radar and radio that he was shot down. He then flew to an undisclosed hangar to then rejoin his post. While he did this a boat was scattering airplane parts in the water. The US also documented starting fires on their own ship. All this to create a crisis. This sounds crazy, but I would never make this up. I have learned more in the last 2 years than i thought could ever be possible. My main point is that everything is NOT always as the mainstream media makes it out to be. Take care. Mike M. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Kris Book [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The worst part is that the masses can't see that this particlar war like hundreds of wars before it, was started to make somebody an extra dollar they really didn't need. The corporate bullies can always fake the reason for a war, or sucker some fool into starting the war for them. After all, they must stay in game shape and since it's always young men who are the bulk that are killed in wars, they will never relax their grip. And that's good for population/power control. All they have to do is keep us bickering among ourselves and working for the almighty dollar and the inmates run the assylum without any guards. We could easily defeat them, since we out number them about 99 to 1, unfortunately the only weapon I know that will work is communication. And since humans will go to such great lengths to avoid communicating, we are stuck in a huge Catch 22. When we finally learn that all humans are equal and every parent on the planet wants the same good fortune (and deserves it) for their offspring, then corporate rule will just fade away without a shot being fired. Until that day, remember virtually all politics/governments are evil and not looking out for anyone except the top 1% of the money holders. kris --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Enteresting corrolary. Nicely put. Worth giving some arduous thought. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma... Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq, killing thousands of civilians, was morally justified cite the following beliefs. If they were sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then the war was justified. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma
x-charset ISO-8859-1Could you kindly clarify the latter lines in your thought process? That said if the I wouldn't save him bunch thinks that the world would be better without him then what does that make you for joyfully posting about his demise and yet sitting by the wayside content to the bravato at hand? Who is sitting by the wayside? Who is being joyful? Seems to me that most who have been posting have been rather thoughtful and perhaps even inwardly contemplative on the matter. It is also somewhat apparent that one of many points of the whole joke might be that the joke is on the interpreter - at least once you get past the superficiality of it. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: jeremynlana [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 4:49 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma Personally I would do what I could to save him. (Disclaimer)I am not advocating the following but instead highly condemn it...That said if the I wouldn't save him bunch thinks that the world would be better without him then what does that make you for joyfully posting about his demise and yet sitting by the wayside content to the bravato at hand? I can enjoy good humor but black humor is lousy fun in this P.C. world. Refresh my memory again, we're allowed to bash middle class white heterosexual males that live in the country, speak with accents, drive SUV's, own firearms and have more than two children. Oh yeah that's it, thanks! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
Chris Beamis wrote: On Friday, February 20, 2004, at 05:18 AM, Keith Addison wrote: There is nothing here that I wrote, it's all from Chris Stratford and Chris Beamis. Please be a little more careful in saying who wrote what. Keith Addison On Thursday, February 19, 2004, at 01:15 PM, the_maniacal_engineer wrote: When I first heard this it was about osama bin laden - a man who wants to forcibly impose sharia law on the entire world. under sharia law (at least the extreme version that osama holds) jews and christians must pay an extra tax. pagans and aetheists must convert or be executed. I later heard this joke told about saddam hussein. he and his sons killed millions of people in their reign of iraq, including the enlightened practice of having men hired to 'deprive women of their virtue' as a political reprisal against their family (ie these men were professional, government supported rapists) and the even more enlightened practice of droppping live enemies into a chipper. If Iraqi's continue to die at the current rate they are still thousands of people per year ahead of the death rate attribuatble to saddam. I just happened to stumble on an article offering contradictory evidence, both on the number of people killed and/or tortured by the Husseins (somewhere in the range of 17.000 to 290,000 according to the below article), and also the shredder story. Seems the ratio of our trade off of possible future lives saved per for sure present ones killed is probably smaller than we thought... http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec239.html snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma
x-charset ISO-8859-1No Jeremy. Your message was not clear and your categorizations were and still are inaccurate. Even in your post below you twist the mention of a singular event into plurality, distorting the remark to be a declaration of all encompassing practice. Plainly put? Relative to this thread you are are practicing mis- and dis-information. Your posts do not correlate to what has actually been written, only to what you would like to think people have written and what you would like others to think has been written. You claimed that people were sitting by the wayside. Most people that I know, as well as those who have posted, are far from inactive sideliners. Just that they don't have the power of Shrub's mum to walk into the oval office, grab him by the ear, yank him out to the woodshed to blister his butt in a refresher course of what he has chosen to disregard since his formative years. You claimed that people are being joyful in speaking of Shrub's demise. There is nothing more disdainful than having to contemplate the national disparities and international fraud that his administration has created. Most do not wake up in the morning in eager anticipation of wrestling with such an ugly situation. They are forced to address it, presuming they are responsible and don't just turn a blind eye as so many are willing to do. So no, I can't blame you for not wanting to elaborate on your flimsy fabrications. Doing so would make your glass house even more transparent. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: jeremynlana [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 10:20 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma I wont elaborate since my message is clear. I admit that there were a few posts that I respected, but the vast majority if you will re-read them concern black and white or color, mountain monasteries, and popular vote we all know how presidents are elected in the US and if anything the courts were trying to subvert the ACTUAL process of electing a president in the US, every respectable investigation since has proved that! My post however dealt with putting your money where your mouth is. If you think that the demise of said individual would better society..I however would gladly stand between that individual and my president. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
Frederick E. Finch wrote: But the illegal invasion and occupation was not to remove Saddam from power. It was to get a better foothold in the middle east... WHERE THE OIL IS!! If that had been the objective, ordinary diplomacy would have done it cheaper. If the British Empire had kept its foot on the neck of the Middle East (most of which was British up to WWII) we'd be buying the same oil from Tony Blair. Frankly, all sides have blood on their hands. All the way to the dawning days of Homo Erectus. Big deal. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dave Williams)== == waiting, anticipating / for someone to save her soul / well, I == == ain't no new Messiah / but I'm close enough for rock and roll! == = http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/index.htm Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq, killing thousands of civilians, was morally justified cite the following beliefs. If they were sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then the war was justified. 1. Saddam Hussein was a nasty man. 2. Iraq might be giving aid and support to our enemies. 3. Iraq might have or want to have weapons of mass destruction (WMD), biological, chemical, or nuclear. 4. Iraq had oil, which we were getting along without, but they might disrupt our access to affordable oil. I am old enough to remember December 7, 1941, when the Japanese staged a pre-emptive surprise attack on the U.S fleet at Peral Harbor, killing 254 civilians. They sincerely believed the following: 1. FDR was a nasty man. 2. The U.S. was giving aid and comfort to Japan's enemies, sending planes and pilots to China, sending American naval units into Japanese waters, etc. 3. The U.S. had huge stocks of chemical weapons, and a US Army Chemical Corps. The U.S. had biological weapons and was supplying anthrax to the British. The U.S. did not yet have nuclear waepons, but they were trying hard with the Manhattan Project. 4. The U.S. had oil, which Japan could not get along without. In conjuction with British and Dutch allies, the U.S. disrupted ALL of Japan's oil supply. Japan was strictly conforming to American legal and moral standards. We owe them an apology for that Day of Infamy slander. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
Pre-emptive? Yes. Surprise? No way. They knew for months that it was coming, it was just a matter of when. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 11:43 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma... Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq, [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
If that had been the objective, ordinary diplomacy would have done it cheaper. Yes, but the outcome would have decades out. And they would *still* have had that pesky Saddam to deal with. It was far easier to just spend billions and perform an illegal act. If the British Empire had kept its foot on the neck of the Middle East (most of which was British up to WWII) we'd be buying the same oil from Tony Blair. too bad for them I guess, eh? Frankly, all sides have blood on their hands. All the way to the dawning days of Homo Erectus. Big deal. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dave Williams)== == waiting, anticipating / for someone to save her soul / well, I == == ain't no new Messiah / but I'm close enough for rock and roll! == = http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/index.htm Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Enteresting corrolary. Nicely put. Worth giving some arduous thought. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma... Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq, killing thousands of civilians, was morally justified cite the following beliefs. If they were sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then the war was justified. 1. Saddam Hussein was a nasty man. 2. Iraq might be giving aid and support to our enemies. 3. Iraq might have or want to have weapons of mass destruction (WMD), biological, chemical, or nuclear. 4. Iraq had oil, which we were getting along without, but they might disrupt our access to affordable oil. I am old enough to remember December 7, 1941, when the Japanese staged a pre-emptive surprise attack on the U.S fleet at Peral Harbor, killing 254 civilians. They sincerely believed the following: 1. FDR was a nasty man. 2. The U.S. was giving aid and comfort to Japan's enemies, sending planes and pilots to China, sending American naval units into Japanese waters, etc. 3. The U.S. had huge stocks of chemical weapons, and a US Army Chemical Corps. The U.S. had biological weapons and was supplying anthrax to the British. The U.S. did not yet have nuclear waepons, but they were trying hard with the Manhattan Project. 4. The U.S. had oil, which Japan could not get along without. In conjuction with British and Dutch allies, the U.S. disrupted ALL of Japan's oil supply. Japan was strictly conforming to American legal and moral standards. We owe them an apology for that Day of Infamy slander. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
The worst part is that the masses can't see that this particlar war like hundreds of wars before it, was started to make somebody an extra dollar they really didn't need. The corporate bullies can always fake the reason for a war, or sucker some fool into starting the war for them. After all, they must stay in game shape and since it's always young men who are the bulk that are killed in wars, they will never relax their grip. And that's good for population/power control. All they have to do is keep us bickering among ourselves and working for the almighty dollar and the inmates run the assylum without any guards. We could easily defeat them, since we out number them about 99 to 1, unfortunately the only weapon I know that will work is communication. And since humans will go to such great lengths to avoid communicating, we are stuck in a huge Catch 22. When we finally learn that all humans are equal and every parent on the planet wants the same good fortune (and deserves it) for their offspring, then corporate rule will just fade away without a shot being fired. Until that day, remember virtually all politics/governments are evil and not looking out for anyone except the top 1% of the money holders. kris --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Enteresting corrolary. Nicely put. Worth giving some arduous thought. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma... Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq, killing thousands of civilians, was morally justified cite the following beliefs. If they were sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then the war was justified. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1No Chris, You lose. Anyone foolish enough to invoke Godwin's law should also be intelligent enough to know the of fallacy in doing so. By your definition - the implication of Godwin's Law - there is no valid use of contextual or historical reference to aberrant behaviors of one particular affiliation or personna. To extrapolate on that, there would be no purpose in learning from such aberrance either. Contemporary nationalism would somehow be lesser a disease now than in the 1930s and political, economic and social corolaries would also have no significance were such triteness and foosishness to be the rule of the day. All too wrong bucko. It is you who lose. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: the_maniacal_engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:24 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma... godwin's law sorry - you lose --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Bush is directly responsible for ALL the deaths on ALL sides in Iraq and you would only be responsible for one. I don't see how that makes you lower than him. I have heard a lot of people pissing and moaning about how so many people had the chance to kill Hitler and berate them for not doing that. For my money one life is not worth more than another whether it is a Bush or Hitler or my own for that matter. snip The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters the noblest motive is the public good (S.D. county motto?) the road to hell is paved with good intentions (?) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Sorry, That anology doesn't fly worth spit. You are the one who drew corralaries between Shrub and other miscreants and malcontents of international acclaim. Everyone else is willing to let him stand or sink on his own merit or lack thereof. All I said was that frankly the man is a liar and a fraud. Others chimed in with note that his fraud is directly responsible for the loss of 10,000 plus lives. You didn't selectively forget that bombs and guns kill indiscriminantly, did you? Or are only American lives those worth tallying? And then to offer justification by pro-rating lives lost uner one man's regime over time versus lives lost as a direct result of another man's lies, fraud and deception? Based on that type of logic, it's safe to hope that you're never put in charge of a discussion on principle/morality with a charge of third graders. And that's a really queer bit of twisted misrepresentation/juxtaposition in that last paragraph of yours, not to mention your failure to note the second $60 some odd million that Halliburton has been caught syphoning off of field kitchens. Keep that logic rolling.. Hopefully right out the back door into the nearest dung heap. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: the_maniacal_engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:15 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma... When I first heard this it was about osama bin laden - a man who wants to forcibly impose sharia law on the entire world. under sharia law (at least the extreme version that osama holds) jews and christians must pay an extra tax. pagans and aetheists must convert or be executed. I later heard this joke told about saddam hussein. he and his sons killed millions of people in their reign of iraq, including the enlightened practice of having men hired to 'deprive women of their virtue' as a political reprisal against their family (ie these men were professional, government supported rapists) and the even more enlightened practice of droppping live enemies into a chipper. If Iraqi's continue to die at the current rate they are still thousands of people per year ahead of the death rate attribuatble to saddam. Now I see this story about GWB who caused countless americans to die... well not countless... OK so about 500... but 500 is alot.. anyway he did it so that we could get the oil for free ... except we buy it at market rates but it makes halliburton rich except that they are being watched like a hawk and had to return 60million in overcharges... but he sure is as bad as saddam. Just look at all of the professional rapists on the DOJ payroll... OK well, look at how GWB is trampling the rule of law by imposing religious rules in alabama courthouses oh wait they had to take that out. But the evil right wing reactionary conspiracy has thwarted the rule of the people by issuing fraudulent marriage licenses in violation of the california state con...sti..tution... no wait - that was gay activist mayor/judges.. what was the middle part? Oh yeah, I can see the equivalence between saddam and GWB. Yep. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, there is a third answer to this... Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. snip Suddenly you see a man in the water - he is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken away by the masses of water and mud. You move closer. Somehow the man looks familiar. Suddenly you know who it is - it's George W. Bush! You have two options. You can save him or you can take the best photo of your life. You can't do both. Here's the question (please give an honest answer): Would you select color film, or instead go for the simplicity of classic black and white? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
On Thursday, February 19, 2004, at 01:15 PM, the_maniacal_engineer wrote: When I first heard this it was about osama bin laden - a man who wants to forcibly impose sharia law on the entire world. under sharia law (at least the extreme version that osama holds) jews and christians must pay an extra tax. pagans and aetheists must convert or be executed. I later heard this joke told about saddam hussein. he and his sons killed millions of people in their reign of iraq, including the enlightened practice of having men hired to 'deprive women of their virtue' as a political reprisal against their family (ie these men were professional, government supported rapists) and the even more enlightened practice of droppping live enemies into a chipper. If Iraqi's continue to die at the current rate they are still thousands of people per year ahead of the death rate attribuatble to saddam. Now I see this story about GWB who caused countless americans to die... well not countless... OK so about 500... but 500 is alot.. anyway he did it so that we could get the oil for free ... except we buy it at market rates but it makes halliburton rich except that they are being watched like a hawk and had to return 60million in overcharges... but he sure is as bad as saddam. Just look at all of the professional rapists on the DOJ payroll... OK well, look at how GWB is trampling the rule of law by imposing religious rules in alabama courthouses oh wait they had to take that out. But the evil right wing reactionary conspiracy has thwarted the rule of the people by issuing fraudulent marriage licenses in violation of the california state con...sti..tution... no wait - that was gay activist mayor/judges.. Did they really kill millions? I hadn't thought of it that way before. I mean, if those people were killing their countrymen and women by the millions, and only a few 10s of thousands have been hurt (I don't have an estimate of how accurate it is, but I read somewhere an estimate that something like as many as 90,000 people have been injured due to this Iraq venture, including, I think, on the order of 10,000 total killed) due to this war then it sounds like we got to play god and save lives by killing people. I guess my question is, should we really be trying to be gods? If we estimated that millions more would die in the next few years due to the brutal Hussein rule, and went to war to prevent that it essentially means we killed a few thousand people immediately to save the lives of a presumably greater number of unknown people whom we guess would die otherwise at some unspecified time. Furthermore, we did this without even seriously attempting some other solution(s) that could have saved the millions in the future while sacrificing fewer or none in the present, even though we knew very well that we could be wrong about our guess. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone on the planet adopted a policy of doing their best to never under any circumstances allow the lives of anyone, including their own, to get worse, or caused to have a increased chance of getting worse? In this case, if all our government employees, from the bigwigs at the top to the worker bees at the bottom, were to have that policy enforced upon them as official policy on pain of discharge, we would have poured the full might of the US government into the problem of saving the millions in the future while not sacrificing the thousands in the now. Actually, now that I think of it, this could be a useful policy for the US government to have regarding the whole world. Think of how many lives could be saved, and even improved! Chris what was the middle part? Oh yeah, I can see the equivalence between saddam and GWB. Yep. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, there is a third answer to this... Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. snip Suddenly you see a man in the water - he is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken away by the masses of water and mud. You move closer. Somehow the man looks familiar. Suddenly you know who it is - it's George W. Bush! You have two options. You can save him or you can take the best photo of your life. You can't do both. Here's the question (please give an honest answer): Would you select color film, or instead go for the simplicity of classic black and white? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links The Pledge of Allegiance does not end with Hail Satan -- From Bart Simpson's chalkboard writings. Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
On Thursday, February 19, 2004, at 01:15 PM, the_maniacal_engineer wrote: When I first heard this it was about osama bin laden - a man who wants to forcibly impose sharia law on the entire world. under sharia law (at least the extreme version that osama holds) jews and christians must pay an extra tax. pagans and aetheists must convert or be executed. I later heard this joke told about saddam hussein. he and his sons killed millions of people in their reign of iraq, including the enlightened practice of having men hired to 'deprive women of their virtue' as a political reprisal against their family (ie these men were professional, government supported rapists) and the even more enlightened practice of droppping live enemies into a chipper. If Iraqi's continue to die at the current rate they are still thousands of people per year ahead of the death rate attribuatble to saddam. Now I see this story about GWB who caused countless americans to die... well not countless... OK so about 500... but 500 is alot.. anyway he did it so that we could get the oil for free ... except we buy it at market rates but it makes halliburton rich except that they are being watched like a hawk and had to return 60million in overcharges... but he sure is as bad as saddam. Just look at all of the professional rapists on the DOJ payroll... OK well, look at how GWB is trampling the rule of law by imposing religious rules in alabama courthouses oh wait they had to take that out. But the evil right wing reactionary conspiracy has thwarted the rule of the people by issuing fraudulent marriage licenses in violation of the california state con...sti..tution... no wait - that was gay activist mayor/judges.. Did they really kill millions? Nope. The US- and UK-backed sanctions against Iraq killed at least half a million children though, as intended. In 1998, the UN carried out a nationwide survey of health and nutrition. It found that mortality rates among children under five in central and southern Iraq had doubled from the previous decade. That would suggest 500,000 excess deaths of children by 1998. Excess deaths of children continue at the rate of 5,000 a month. UNICEF estimated in 2002 that 70 percent of child deaths in Iraq result from diarrhea and acute respiratory infections. This is the result-as foretold accurately by U.S. intelligence in 1991-of the breakdown of systems to provide clean water, sanitation, and electrical power. Adults, too, particularly the elderly and other vulnerable sections, have succumbed. The overall toll, of all ages, was put at 1.2 million in a 1997 UNICEF report. The evidence of the effect of the sanctions came from the most authoritative sources. Denis Halliday, UN humanitarian coordinator in Iraq from 1997 to 1998, resigned in protest against the operation of the sanctions, which he termed deliberate genocide. He was replaced by Hans von Sponeck, who resigned in 2000, on the same grounds. Jutta Burghardt, director of the UN World Food Program operation in Iraq, also resigned, saying, I fully support what Mr. von Sponeck was saying. There is no room for doubt that genocide was conscious U.S. policy. On May 12, 1996, U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was asked by Lesley Stahl of CBS television: We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it? Albright replied: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it. -- From: Behind the War on Iraq by the Research Unit for Political Economy Monthly Review May 2003 Research Unit for Political Economy is based in Mumbai, India. The group publishes the journal Aspects of India's Economy and a range of research publications in English and Hindi. http://www.monthlyreview.org/0503rupe.htm I suggest you read the whole report, it will certainly give you a very much clearer and less muddied picture than Chris Stratford has managed to do. Read this one too while you're at it: http://www.scn.org/ccpi/HarpersJoyGordonNov02.html Cool War: Economic sanctions as a weapon of mass destruction By Joy Gordon Harper's Magazine November 2002 Plenty more, but those should do for a start. I hadn't thought of it that way before. Well don't start now! Best Keith I mean, if those people were killing their countrymen and women by the millions, and only a few 10s of thousands have been hurt (I don't have an estimate of how accurate it is, but I read somewhere an estimate that something like as many as 90,000 people have been injured due to this Iraq venture, including, I think, on the order of 10,000 total killed) due to this war then it sounds like we got to play god and save lives by killing people. I guess my question is, should we really be trying to be gods? If we estimated that millions more would die in the next few years
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
Sorry Chris, But the illegal invasion and occupation was not to remove Saddam from power. It was to get a better foothold in the middle east... WHERE THE OIL IS!! That was the intent during the first Gulf War. The US succeeded to a small degree with bases in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. But the bigger picture now is to turn Iraq into the neutered puppy of the middle east where the handler has a big stick just in case someone has something to say about it (that would be the US.) Frankly, all sides have blood on their hands. fred At 06:02 PM 2/20/2004 +, you wrote: Yep - the sanctions did kill a lot of people. too bad there wasn't some kind of food for oil program that would have allowed the kind baathists to care for the indigent of Iraq. Oh wait... there was. Gee, I wonder what happened to all that money that Iraq got under the food for oil program. GWB must have used halliburton connections to steal it..but it was UN administered... and GWB he wasn't president for any of that time But as governor of texas he was certainly able to hijack the oil for food moneys yeah - thats the ticket in case any of you have forgotten, Saddam actually did invade his neighbors, and yes the US did support him (to the extent that we provided 3% of his armaments during the iran/iraq war) aginst what we viewed as a more serious threat, namely radical islamism (no that isn't a typo). But when he moved against kuwait it didn't seem prudent to do nothing, since he had a proven track record of aggression. so we kicked him out of kuwait and then instituted sanctions if he violated the ceasefire- which he did. Ideally we would have gone back in a year or two later to enforce the cease fire terms, but by that time it was a new adminisration so it didnt happen. had we done so there would have been only a fraction of the deaths related to sanctions. But never forget that saddam could have ended the sanctions at any time by simply keeping to his agreement, and he could have averted starvation by not siphoning off the food for oil money. the blood is on his hands. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, February 19, 2004, at 01:15 PM, the_maniacal_engineer wrote: When I first heard this it was about osama bin laden - a man who wants snip california state con...sti..tution... no wait - that was gay activist mayor/judges.. Did they really kill millions? Nope. The US- and UK-backed sanctions against Iraq killed at least half a million children though, as intended. In 1998, the UN carried out a nationwide survey of health and nutrition. It found that mortality rates among children under five in central and southern Iraq had doubled from the previous decade. That would suggest 500,000 excess deaths of children by 1998. Excess deaths of children continue at the rate of 5,000 a month. UNICEF estimated in 2002 that 70 percent of child deaths in Iraq result from diarrhea and acute respiratory infections. This is the result-as foretold accurately by U.S. intelligence in 1991-of the breakdown of systems to provide clean water, sanitation, and electrical power. Adults, too, particularly the elderly and other vulnerable sections, have succumbed. The overall toll, of all ages, was put at 1.2 million in a 1997 UNICEF report. The evidence of the effect of the sanctions came from the most authoritative sources. Denis Halliday, UN humanitarian coordinator in Iraq from 1997 to 1998, resigned in protest against the operation of the sanctions, which he termed deliberate genocide. He was replaced by Hans von Sponeck, who resigned in 2000, on the same grounds. Jutta Burghardt, director of the UN World Food Program operation in Iraq, also resigned, saying, I fully support what Mr. von Sponeck was saying. There is no room for doubt that genocide was conscious U.S. policy. On May 12, 1996, U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was asked by Lesley Stahl of CBS television: We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it? Albright replied: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it. -- From: Behind the War on Iraq by the Research Unit for Political Economy Monthly Review May 2003 Research Unit for Political Economy is based in Mumbai, India. The group publishes the journal Aspects of India's Economy and a range of research publications in English and Hindi. http://www.monthlyreview.org/0503rupe.htm I suggest you read the whole report, it will certainly give you a very much clearer and less muddied picture than Chris Stratford has managed to do. Read this one too while you're at it: http://www.scn.org/ccpi/HarpersJoyGordonNov02.html Cool War: Economic sanctions as a weapon of mass destruction By Joy Gordon Harper's Magazine November
Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
I forgot to mention: Frankly, all sides have blood on their hands. This would include me since I did not speak out when it was necessary, fred At 02:58 PM 2/20/2004 -0600, you wrote: Sorry Chris, But the illegal invasion and occupation was not to remove Saddam from power. It was to get a better foothold in the middle east... WHERE THE OIL IS!! That was the intent during the first Gulf War. The US succeeded to a small degree with bases in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. But the bigger picture now is to turn Iraq into the neutered puppy of the middle east where the handler has a big stick just in case someone has something to say about it (that would be the US.) Frankly, all sides have blood on their hands. fred At 06:02 PM 2/20/2004 +, you wrote: Yep - the sanctions did kill a lot of people. too bad there wasn't some kind of food for oil program that would have allowed the kind baathists to care for the indigent of Iraq. Oh wait... there was. Gee, I wonder what happened to all that money that Iraq got under the food for oil program. GWB must have used halliburton connections to steal it..but it was UN administered... and GWB he wasn't president for any of that time But as governor of texas he was certainly able to hijack the oil for food moneys yeah - thats the ticket in case any of you have forgotten, Saddam actually did invade his neighbors, and yes the US did support him (to the extent that we provided 3% of his armaments during the iran/iraq war) aginst what we viewed as a more serious threat, namely radical islamism (no that isn't a typo). But when he moved against kuwait it didn't seem prudent to do nothing, since he had a proven track record of aggression. so we kicked him out of kuwait and then instituted sanctions if he violated the ceasefire- which he did. Ideally we would have gone back in a year or two later to enforce the cease fire terms, but by that time it was a new adminisration so it didnt happen. had we done so there would have been only a fraction of the deaths related to sanctions. But never forget that saddam could have ended the sanctions at any time by simply keeping to his agreement, and he could have averted starvation by not siphoning off the food for oil money. the blood is on his hands. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, February 19, 2004, at 01:15 PM, the_maniacal_engineer wrote: When I first heard this it was about osama bin laden - a man who wants snip california state con...sti..tution... no wait - that was gay activist mayor/judges.. Did they really kill millions? Nope. The US- and UK-backed sanctions against Iraq killed at least half a million children though, as intended. In 1998, the UN carried out a nationwide survey of health and nutrition. It found that mortality rates among children under five in central and southern Iraq had doubled from the previous decade. That would suggest 500,000 excess deaths of children by 1998. Excess deaths of children continue at the rate of 5,000 a month. UNICEF estimated in 2002 that 70 percent of child deaths in Iraq result from diarrhea and acute respiratory infections. This is the result-as foretold accurately by U.S. intelligence in 1991-of the breakdown of systems to provide clean water, sanitation, and electrical power. Adults, too, particularly the elderly and other vulnerable sections, have succumbed. The overall toll, of all ages, was put at 1.2 million in a 1997 UNICEF report. The evidence of the effect of the sanctions came from the most authoritative sources. Denis Halliday, UN humanitarian coordinator in Iraq from 1997 to 1998, resigned in protest against the operation of the sanctions, which he termed deliberate genocide. He was replaced by Hans von Sponeck, who resigned in 2000, on the same grounds. Jutta Burghardt, director of the UN World Food Program operation in Iraq, also resigned, saying, I fully support what Mr. von Sponeck was saying. There is no room for doubt that genocide was conscious U.S. policy. On May 12, 1996, U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was asked by Lesley Stahl of CBS television: We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it? Albright replied: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it. -- From: Behind the War on Iraq by the Research Unit for Political Economy Monthly Review May 2003 Research Unit for Political Economy is based in Mumbai, India. The group publishes the journal Aspects of India's Economy and a range of research publications in English and Hindi. http://www.monthlyreview.org/0503rupe.htm I suggest you read the whole report, it will certainly give you a very much clearer and
