Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

Hi Brian

>Thank you Keith for your very thorough response.

You're welcome - gleanings, from afar.

>In
>my experience, the government has been quite helpful
>in assisting startups.
>
>So in summary, if we decide to produce biodiesel and
>sell it for on-road use, we would need to:
>
>1) Ensure that our fuel meets ASTM D-6751, presumably
>by having samples tested at a lab.
>
>2) Track gallons sold and remit the appropriate state
>and federal taxes.
>
>If this is the case, I find it quite reasonable.

If that's the case. I think the place to start is with the EPA 
registration, so you can nail down the requirements for access to the 
Health Effects Data, that's what will make it or break it. Craig Pech 
just posted Joe Sopata's contact to the Biofuel list - Sopata is the 
one who's been dealing with this:

>For those of you in the US that are interested in contacting the EPA - Joe
>Sopata:
>
>202-564-9034
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Does anyone have a source for a lab that can certify ASTM standards - other
>than NBB?
>
>Craig


>It
>would be better if the taxes were reduced or
>eliminated of course.  Count our organization in if
>any serious lobby is formed for this purpose.

Anybody game?

>However, I can hardly fault the government seeking
>road taxes.

I would fault them. Hakan just posted this to the Biofuel list, 
pointing out that it's not a "road tax", it's a "sales tax", an 
important distinction I think.

>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 02:30:14 +0200
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] presentation tomorrow
>
>I like to point out something that we might be missing here. Road tax have
>traditionally been a yearly levy on the vehicles in most countries, at
>least in Europe. This road tax is meant to cover the road and transport
>systems, a so called ear marked tax. Tax on fuels is a sales tax that
>normally to other needs of the society. Fuel tax is wrongfully and
>deliberately attempted to label as road tax by politicians, but have very
>little to do with roads.
>
>Talking with politicians, they often label the higher fuel tax as a way to
>control consumption and encourage energy savings. Like tobacco tax is there
>to encourage "no smoking", Sweden just lowered the tobacco tax because sale
>was going down to much.
>
>It might have been a noble argument to save energy and ease up on the
>expensive oil import. Reality today is that most governments have gone in
>to the oil business in a big way. EU have taken directives for tax exempt
>for bio fuels and UK is one of the countries that resists implementation
>and that also is prepared to use the police to protect their oil business.
>
>So we should stop calling fuel tax with the name "road tax" and instead
>call it "sales tax". In the latest oil crises Blair and other politicians
>refused to ease the tax to help the transportation industry. The argument
>was that they would have to close schools and hospitals if they did. Quite
>a revealing argument on how they use the "road tax".
>
>The above should be said at all presentations.
>
>Hakan

Anyone doing this, please keep us abreast of the process, a lot of 
people want to know this stuff. When we've got it all sorted out I 
can put it all in a new page at Journey to Forever where anyone can 
find it.

>Again, thank you for the excellent information.  It is
>very much appreciated.

:-)

>Blue skies,

And to you.

All best

Keith


>-Brian
>Portland Biodiesel Co-op
>http://www.gobiodiesel.com
>
>--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello Brian
> There's been a lot of discussion here and elsewhere
> > about
> > small-producer certification, and a lot of confusion
> > too, it seems.
> > On the one hand there's been quite a lot of talk of
> > conspiracies to
> > exclude the small guys, which I don't think is
> > warranted, and on the
> > other the EPA has said different things at different
> > times.


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Brian]

Thank you Keith for your very thorough response.  In
my experience, the government has been quite helpful
in assisting startups.

So in summary, if we decide to produce biodiesel and
sell it for on-road use, we would need to:

1) Ensure that our fuel meets ASTM D-6751, presumably
by having samples tested at a lab.

2) Track gallons sold and remit the appropriate state
and federal taxes.

If this is the case, I find it quite reasonable.  It
would be better if the taxes were reduced or
eliminated of course.  Count our organization in if
any serious lobby is formed for this purpose. 
However, I can hardly fault the government seeking
road taxes.  

Again, thank you for the excellent information.  It is
very much appreciated.

Blue skies,

-Brian
Portland Biodiesel Co-op
http://www.gobiodiesel.com

--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Brian
 There's been a lot of discussion here and elsewhere
> about 
> small-producer certification, and a lot of confusion
> too, it seems. 
> On the one hand there's been quite a lot of talk of
> conspiracies to 
> exclude the small guys, which I don't think is
> warranted, and on the 
> other the EPA has said different things at different
> times.


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Re: [biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Craig Pech]

For those of you in the US that are interested in contacting the EPA - Joe
Sopata:

202-564-9034

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Does anyone have a source for a lab that can certify ASTM standards - other
than NBB?

Craig



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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Craig Pech]

Anyone know the cost of joining NBB? I contacted them last week, but they
have not gotten back.

Craig

- Original Message -
From: "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel


> Join the NBB, or you will have to chalk up the million dollar testing
fees.
>
> http://www.biodiesel.org/
>
> http://www.yellowbiodiesel.com/buybiodiesel.htm
>
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> http://www.green-trust.org
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]





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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

s of mixed alkyl 
esters of plant and/or animal origin."
http://www.epa.gov/icr/icrs/icrpages/1696ss03.htm

This makes biodiesel a non-baseline diesel group, and thus exempt 
from Tier I and Tier II testing for producers with total annual sales 
of less than $50 million.

For more on this, see Thor Skov's post below.

Joe Sopata has since said, in answer to enquiries, that producers who 
sell less than $10,000,000 annually are exempt from Tier I and Tier 
II as long as their fuel meets the ASTM standard (ASTM D-6751).

This is what I was told:

"Joe Sopata again stated that fuels meeting all ASTM standards for 
biodiesel are eligible for the exemptions.
 
"Jim Caldwell at EPA stated the same. Also that the test for being a 
non-baseline fuel is meeting the standards. Not meeting the standards 
puts fuel in the atypical category and comes with requirements for 
Tier I. Further,  he stated that the problems associated with yellow 
grease biodiesel were meeting the standard for viscosity."

Caldwell earlier told other people that they would be eligible for 
the Tier I payments. He did say, in February of this year, concerning 
the EPA's action to stop Yellow Biodiesel selling fuel, that "our 
main concern is that he's [Leue] producing a fuel that doesn't meet 
federal standards." At the time, however, there were no federal 
standards - there was a provisional quality specification that had 
expired eight months earlier. The new ASTM standard (D-6751) has 
since come into effect, but only very recently. Also, Caldwell's 
statement (to the press) is ambiguous - did it not meet standards (?) 
or was he merely concerned it might not? Tom Leue had not had his 
fuel tested. The NBB (and hence the EPA I guess) holds to the view 
that small-scale homebrewers can't produce standard-spec fuel 
(wrong), so Caldwell's view might simply have been a presumption.

Anyway, Caldwell and Sopata both now say that small producers will be 
exempt if their fuel meets the ASTM standard. Note what they mean by 
small producers - earning less than either $50 million or $10 million 
a year. They don't know what "small" means, and they're inclined to 
be contemptuous of homebrewers and probably dismiss them - I think 
the whole issue has simply been below their radar screen. Maybe now 
it isn't. World Energy's announcement might also be an indication of 
that.

Obviously it needs testing, but would-be small producers are 
negotiating with them and report that they've been helpful and 
cooperative so far. It will however mean that the fuel must be tested 
and must meet ASTM specs. I don't know why they're stating that 
yellow grease biodiesel won't meet viscosity standards, it's quite 
widely used as a feedstock in Europe, there are a number of research 
papers on it (I think available from the NBB's online database).

As a small producer - our definition of small, not theirs - you can 
produce standard-spec biodiesel, people using the techniques 
available to homebrewers have had their fuel tested and have proved 
it.

Beyond that, you'll still have to pay federal and state road taxes. 
That's something that needs some pressure perhaps - should there be 
any taxes on biodiesel?

Regards

Keith



>To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
>From: Thor Skov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel
>
>Keith, Tom, et. al.,
>
>The following Federal Register notice has some
>relevant information.  Keith, this may be the notice
>you were referring to.  I gleaned the following
>points:
>
>1.  Biodiesel (neat and blends) is considered a
>non-baseline diesel fuel.
>2.  There is no language that bars small-business
>biodiesel producers from the Tier 1 and Tier 2 testing
>exemptions.
>3.  All categories of biodiesel are considered similar
>for testing purposes (at this time).
>
>Now, this afternoon I got a message from Joe Sopata at
>EPA (lots of phone tag) in which he stated that any
>blend <= 6% biodiesel was considered a nonbaseline
>fuel, and anything over 6% was considered atypical,
>and therefore not subject to the Tier 1 exemption.
>The thing is, I can't find that definition in any EPA
>documents.  What I find is what I have quoted below.
>EPA tests biodiesel at 100% as the representative
>group, and assumes that most applications will be a
>20/80 blend.  I don't know where this <6% rule comes
>from, but it may be a purely discretionary
>interpretation, and not a written rule issued as a
>regulation.
>
>So, Tom, I don't know how EPA could be threatening to
>shut you down on this basis.
>
>I'll keep checking.
>
>Thor
>
>The reference:
>[Federal Register: March 17, 1997 (Volume 

[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

s of mixed alkyl 
esters of plant and/or animal origin."
http://www.epa.gov/icr/icrs/icrpages/1696ss03.htm

This makes biodiesel a non-baseline diesel group, and thus exempt 
from Tier I and Tier II testing for producers with total annual sales 
of less than $50 million.

For more on this, see Thor Skov's post below.

Joe Sopata has since said, in answer to enquiries, that producers who 
sell less than $10,000,000 annually are exempt from Tier I and Tier 
II as long as their fuel meets the ASTM standard (ASTM D-6751).

This is what I was told:

"Joe Sopata again stated that fuels meeting all ASTM standards for 
biodiesel are eligible for the exemptions.
 
"Jim Caldwell at EPA stated the same. Also that the test for being a 
non-baseline fuel is meeting the standards. Not meeting the standards 
puts fuel in the atypical category and comes with requirements for 
Tier I. Further,  he stated that the problems associated with yellow 
grease biodiesel were meeting the standard for viscosity."

Caldwell earlier told other people that they would be eligible for 
the Tier I payments. He did say, in February of this year, concerning 
the EPA's action to stop Yellow Biodiesel selling fuel, that "our 
main concern is that he's [Leue] producing a fuel that doesn't meet 
federal standards." At the time, however, there were no federal 
standards - there was a provisional quality specification that had 
expired eight months earlier. The new ASTM standard (D-6751) has 
since come into effect, but only very recently. Also, Caldwell's 
statement (to the press) is ambiguous - did it not meet standards (?) 
or was he merely concerned it might not? Tom Leue had not had his 
fuel tested. The NBB (and hence the EPA I guess) holds to the view 
that small-scale homebrewers can't produce standard-spec fuel 
(wrong), so Caldwell's view might simply have been a presumption.

Anyway, Caldwell and Sopata both now say that small producers will be 
exempt if their fuel meets the ASTM standard. Note what they mean by 
small producers - earning less than either $50 million or $10 million 
a year. They don't know what "small" means, and they're inclined to 
be contemptuous of homebrewers and probably dismiss them - I think 
the whole issue has simply been below their radar screen. Maybe now 
it isn't. World Energy's announcement might also be an indication of 
that.

Obviously it needs testing, but would-be small producers are 
negotiating with them and report that they've been helpful and 
cooperative so far. It will however mean that the fuel must be tested 
and must meet ASTM specs. I don't know why they're stating that 
yellow grease biodiesel won't meet viscosity standards, it's quite 
widely used as a feedstock in Europe, there are a number of research 
papers on it (I think available from the NBB's online database).

As a small producer - our definition of small, not theirs - you can 
produce standard-spec biodiesel, people using the techniques 
available to homebrewers have had their fuel tested and have proved 
it.

Beyond that, you'll still have to pay federal and state road taxes. 
That's something that needs some pressure perhaps - should there be 
any taxes on biodiesel?

Regards

Keith



>To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
>From: Thor Skov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel
>
>Keith, Tom, et. al.,
>
>The following Federal Register notice has some
>relevant information.  Keith, this may be the notice
>you were referring to.  I gleaned the following
>points:
>
>1.  Biodiesel (neat and blends) is considered a
>non-baseline diesel fuel.
>2.  There is no language that bars small-business
>biodiesel producers from the Tier 1 and Tier 2 testing
>exemptions.
>3.  All categories of biodiesel are considered similar
>for testing purposes (at this time).
>
>Now, this afternoon I got a message from Joe Sopata at
>EPA (lots of phone tag) in which he stated that any
>blend <= 6% biodiesel was considered a nonbaseline
>fuel, and anything over 6% was considered atypical,
>and therefore not subject to the Tier 1 exemption.
>The thing is, I can't find that definition in any EPA
>documents.  What I find is what I have quoted below.
>EPA tests biodiesel at 100% as the representative
>group, and assumes that most applications will be a
>20/80 blend.  I don't know where this <6% rule comes
>from, but it may be a purely discretionary
>interpretation, and not a written rule issued as a
>regulation.
>
>So, Tom, I don't know how EPA could be threatening to
>shut you down on this basis.
>
>I'll keep checking.
>
>Thor
>
>The reference:
>[Federal Register: March 17, 1997 (Volume 

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Eric Ruttan]

And sell BioDiesel as a FUEL ADDITIVE ONLY.  No federal tax.  Tell users to 
blend it.
>
>Join the NBB, or you will have to chalk up the million dollar testing fees.
>
>http://www.biodiesel.org/
>
>http://www.yellowbiodiesel.com/buybiodiesel.htm
>
>Steve Spence
>Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel
>
>
> > Hello, I've been lurking for a while, and now seems a
> > good time for an intro and a request for help.
> >
> > My name is Brian Jamison and I'm currently organizing
> > the Portland Oregon Biodiesel Co-op.  We're not
> > currently producing biodiesel but soon will.  I'm
> > committed to doing everything legal and above board.
> >
> > I've heard rumors from small biodiesel producers
> > (mostly homebrewers) that it is a million dollar
> > process to get certification to sell biodiesel.  I
> > tend to doubt it.
> >
> > So, what is required?  Paying the road taxes is easy.
> >
> > Blue skies,
> >
> > Brian Jamison
> > Founder
> > Portland Biodiesel Co-op
> > http://www.gobiodiesel.com
> >
> > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > Here is a communication from World Energy about
> > > government actions against
> > > one of the few biodiesel producers in the Northeast.
> > > Be forwarned.
> > >
> > > Snip>
> > > We run into a lot of small producers who are trying
> > > to do the right thing,
> > > but I would be remiss if I did not warn about the
> > > severity of cutting corners
> > > from an IRS or EPA standpoint.
> > >
> > >
> > > Any biodiesel producer or seller needs to understand
> > > that any biodiesel used
> > > (not sold)as fuel in an on-road vehicle is subject
> > > to on-road tax. We have a
> > > number of producers around the country who do not
> > > want to deal with the tax,
> > > and sell it tax exempt. This fuel does often end up
> > > in peoples vehicles. Just
> > > as you and I pay tax at the pump, it is the user who
> > > is ultimately
> > > responsible for road tax.
> > >
> > >
> > > We just had a small producer in another state in a
> > > similar situation. They
> > > own a number of diesel vehicles and have been using
> > > it for about a year. They
> > > were just hit with bill for $0.31/gallon State
> > > excise tax plus penalties and
> > > interest for every gallon they have produced. In
> > > addition, since the fuel was
> > > used in on-road vehicles, the Federal Government can
> > > (and most likely will)
> > > fine up to $10.00/gallon for every gallon used. The
> > > organization in Maine is
> > > a non-profit agency and is therefore tax exempt.
> > > They also do not sell any
> > > fuel to te outside world.
> > >
> > >
> > > Many of these small producers are yet to realize how
> > > sad the ending may be. I
> > > don't mean to sound rude or abrupt, but the tax
> > > consequences can be quite
> > > severe. I have already seen it happen once. I think
> > > we will see it happen
> > > again.


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Steve Spence]

Join the NBB, or you will have to chalk up the million dollar testing fees.

http://www.biodiesel.org/

http://www.yellowbiodiesel.com/buybiodiesel.htm

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Brian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel


> Hello, I've been lurking for a while, and now seems a
> good time for an intro and a request for help.
>
> My name is Brian Jamison and I'm currently organizing
> the Portland Oregon Biodiesel Co-op.  We're not
> currently producing biodiesel but soon will.  I'm
> committed to doing everything legal and above board.
>
> I've heard rumors from small biodiesel producers
> (mostly homebrewers) that it is a million dollar
> process to get certification to sell biodiesel.  I
> tend to doubt it.
>
> So, what is required?  Paying the road taxes is easy.
>
> Blue skies,
>
> Brian Jamison
> Founder
> Portland Biodiesel Co-op
> http://www.gobiodiesel.com
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Here is a communication from World Energy about
> > government actions against
> > one of the few biodiesel producers in the Northeast.
> > Be forwarned.
> >
> > Snip>
> > We run into a lot of small producers who are trying
> > to do the right thing,
> > but I would be remiss if I did not warn about the
> > severity of cutting corners
> > from an IRS or EPA standpoint.
> >
> >
> > Any biodiesel producer or seller needs to understand
> > that any biodiesel used
> > (not sold)as fuel in an on-road vehicle is subject
> > to on-road tax. We have a
> > number of producers around the country who do not
> > want to deal with the tax,
> > and sell it tax exempt. This fuel does often end up
> > in peoples vehicles. Just
> > as you and I pay tax at the pump, it is the user who
> > is ultimately
> > responsible for road tax.
> >
> >
> > We just had a small producer in another state in a
> > similar situation. They
> > own a number of diesel vehicles and have been using
> > it for about a year. They
> > were just hit with bill for $0.31/gallon State
> > excise tax plus penalties and
> > interest for every gallon they have produced. In
> > addition, since the fuel was
> > used in on-road vehicles, the Federal Government can
> > (and most likely will)
> > fine up to $10.00/gallon for every gallon used. The
> > organization in Maine is
> > a non-profit agency and is therefore tax exempt.
> > They also do not sell any
> > fuel to te outside world.
> >
> >
> > Many of these small producers are yet to realize how
> > sad the ending may be. I
> > don't mean to sound rude or abrupt, but the tax
> > consequences can be quite
> > severe. I have already seen it happen once. I think
> > we will see it happen
> > again.
> >
>
>
> __
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> http://faith.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> Biofuels at Journey to Forever
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Biofuel at WebConX
> http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
> List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
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>
>
>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

Hi Brian

The federal law is 40 CFR 79, requiring any alternative fuel or fuel additive 
(but not standard fuels) to be tested for the health effects. While there is 
an exception for small producers (under $50,000,000 in annual sales) from the 
live rat studies, the chemical speciation must be conducted by a laboratory. 
The EPA estimate of this cost is about $1,000,000.  I find it interesting 
that the federally sponsored study for this test is stated as being in the 
public domain, but it is the policy of the EPA, not law, that they require a 
new study from any producer that is not a member of the NBB.  This is their 
way of keeping control of the number of producers.

The EPA warns that they will fine any producer of biodiesel up to $25,000 per 
day if they catch them selling or bartering homebrew biodiesel without a 
receipt for membership in the NBB.

There are more details, but this one should be sufficient to stifle the 
development of locally made biodiesel around the country.

Tom Leue
Homestead Inc.


In a message dated 10/7/02 12:18:38 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Hello, I've been lurking for a while, and now seems a
good time for an intro and a request for help.

My name is Brian Jamison and I'm currently organizing
the Portland Oregon Biodiesel Co-op.  We're not
currently producing biodiesel but soon will.  I'm
committed to doing everything legal and above board.

I've heard rumors from small biodiesel producers
(mostly homebrewers) that it is a million dollar
process to get certification to sell biodiesel.  I
tend to doubt it.

So, what is required?  Paying the road taxes is easy.

Blue skies,

Brian Jamison
Founder
Portland Biodiesel Co-op
http://www.gobiodiesel.com
 >>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Brian]

Hello, I've been lurking for a while, and now seems a
good time for an intro and a request for help.

My name is Brian Jamison and I'm currently organizing
the Portland Oregon Biodiesel Co-op.  We're not
currently producing biodiesel but soon will.  I'm
committed to doing everything legal and above board.

I've heard rumors from small biodiesel producers
(mostly homebrewers) that it is a million dollar
process to get certification to sell biodiesel.  I
tend to doubt it.

So, what is required?  Paying the road taxes is easy.

Blue skies,

Brian Jamison
Founder
Portland Biodiesel Co-op
http://www.gobiodiesel.com

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Here is a communication from World Energy about
> government actions against 
> one of the few biodiesel producers in the Northeast.
> Be forwarned.
> 
> Snip>
> We run into a lot of small producers who are trying
> to do the right thing, 
> but I would be remiss if I did not warn about the
> severity of cutting corners 
> from an IRS or EPA standpoint.
> 
> 
> Any biodiesel producer or seller needs to understand
> that any biodiesel used 
> (not sold)as fuel in an on-road vehicle is subject
> to on-road tax. We have a 
> number of producers around the country who do not
> want to deal with the tax, 
> and sell it tax exempt. This fuel does often end up
> in peoples vehicles. Just 
> as you and I pay tax at the pump, it is the user who
> is ultimately 
> responsible for road tax.
> 
> 
> We just had a small producer in another state in a
> similar situation. They 
> own a number of diesel vehicles and have been using
> it for about a year. They 
> were just hit with bill for $0.31/gallon State
> excise tax plus penalties and 
> interest for every gallon they have produced. In
> addition, since the fuel was 
> used in on-road vehicles, the Federal Government can
> (and most likely will) 
> fine up to $10.00/gallon for every gallon used. The
> organization in Maine is 
> a non-profit agency and is therefore tax exempt.
> They also do not sell any 
> fuel to te outside world.
> 
> 
> Many of these small producers are yet to realize how
> sad the ending may be. I 
> don't mean to sound rude or abrupt, but the tax
> consequences can be quite 
> severe. I have already seen it happen once. I think
> we will see it happen 
> again.
> 


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Re: [biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[murdoch]

This is good evidence that the present government, including the Bush-Cheney
Administration, is not doing everything possible to address itself, with more
*alacrity* and *earnestness*, to pressing energy issues.  Either the producers
of biofuels should be subject to the same rules as everyone else and they should
be *aided* to understand that without having to suffer the consequences as
business-wrecking penalties, and-or the law should be changed to decrease the
taxes on biofuels, given their strategic and environmentally critical status
(not to mention that they could help with Kyoto-type issues).

>We just had a small producer in another state in a similar situation. They
>own a number of diesel vehicles and have been using it for about a year. They
>were just hit with bill for $0.31/gallon State excise tax plus penalties and
>interest for every gallon they have produced. In addition, since the fuel was
>used in on-road vehicles, the Federal Government can (and most likely will)
>fine up to $10.00/gallon for every gallon used. The organization in Maine is
>a non-profit agency and is therefore tax exempt. They also do not sell any
>fuel to te outside world.

>
>Many of these small producers are yet to realize how sad the ending may be. I
>don't mean to sound rude or abrupt, but the tax consequences can be quite
>severe. I have already seen it happen once. I think we will see it happen
>again.
>


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[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[keith]

Here is a communication from World Energy about government actions against
one of the few biodiesel producers in the Northeast. Be forwarned.

Snip>
We run into a lot of small producers who are trying to do the right thing,
but I would be remiss if I did not warn about the severity of cutting corners
from an IRS or EPA standpoint.


Any biodiesel producer or seller needs to understand that any biodiesel used
(not sold)as fuel in an on-road vehicle is subject to on-road tax. We have a
number of producers around the country who do not want to deal with the tax,
and sell it tax exempt. This fuel does often end up in peoples vehicles. Just
as you and I pay tax at the pump, it is the user who is ultimately
responsible for road tax.


We just had a small producer in another state in a similar situation. They
own a number of diesel vehicles and have been using it for about a year. They
were just hit with bill for $0.31/gallon State excise tax plus penalties and
interest for every gallon they have produced. In addition, since the fuel was
used in on-road vehicles, the Federal Government can (and most likely will)
fine up to $10.00/gallon for every gallon used. The organization in Maine is
a non-profit agency and is therefore tax exempt. They also do not sell any
fuel to te outside world.


Many of these small producers are yet to realize how sad the ending may be. I
don't mean to sound rude or abrupt, but the tax consequences can be quite
severe. I have already seen it happen once. I think we will see it happen
again.


Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuel at WebConX
http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

Here is a communication from World Energy about government actions against 
one of the few biodiesel producers in the Northeast. Be forwarned.

Snip>
We run into a lot of small producers who are trying to do the right thing, 
but I would be remiss if I did not warn about the severity of cutting corners 
from an IRS or EPA standpoint.


Any biodiesel producer or seller needs to understand that any biodiesel used 
(not sold)as fuel in an on-road vehicle is subject to on-road tax. We have a 
number of producers around the country who do not want to deal with the tax, 
and sell it tax exempt. This fuel does often end up in peoples vehicles. Just 
as you and I pay tax at the pump, it is the user who is ultimately 
responsible for road tax.


We just had a small producer in another state in a similar situation. They 
own a number of diesel vehicles and have been using it for about a year. They 
were just hit with bill for $0.31/gallon State excise tax plus penalties and 
interest for every gallon they have produced. In addition, since the fuel was 
used in on-road vehicles, the Federal Government can (and most likely will) 
fine up to $10.00/gallon for every gallon used. The organization in Maine is 
a non-profit agency and is therefore tax exempt. They also do not sell any 
fuel to te outside world.


Many of these small producers are yet to realize how sad the ending may be. I 
don't mean to sound rude or abrupt, but the tax consequences can be quite 
severe. I have already seen it happen once. I think we will see it happen 
again.

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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

I read this posting out of order, and later than the other one.

I'm not sure about the Tier 1 testing exemption, its not clear what to 
conclude. The only added insight is that the Tier 1 and Tier 2 test results 
are not copyrighted. They are stated as being done on contract to the NBB, 
but are by definition in the public domain.  Is that significant?

Tom Leue


In a message dated 7/31/02 8:07:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Hi everyone,

I have been on the phone with various government
officials at various agencies.

I have a guy at the Agricultural Marketing Service
trying to answer the question of whether checkoff
funds are considered private or public monies.

Someone on this list asserted that it was with such
funds that the Soybean Board/Council funded the NBB
Tier 1 testing.  Is there any documentary proof of
this?

I also have a request in to EPA about Tier One testing
requirements.  Joe Sapata left me a message saying
that we could not use the NBB test data, but I don't
know the rationale.

Non-discrimination is an issue that Glenn Ellis
brought up.  Where I see the discrimination, beyond
denying public use of NBB testing data bought
(putatively) with public money, is EPA's refusal to
grant the Tier One testing exception to small
biodiesel producers.

[All the following info can be found at: 
http://www.epa.gov/icr/icrs/icrpages/1696ss03.htm]

Specifically:  As part of its Information Collection
Request, (EPA ICR Number 1696.03, OMB Control Number
2060-0297) section 2(a), EPA writes:

"There are several exceptions to the above, in order
to lessen the burden for small businesses. 
Manufacturers of baseline and/or nonbaseline products,
who have an annual sales revenue of less than $50
million, are exempt from Tier 1 and Tier 2. 
Manufacturers of atypical products, who have an annual
sales revenue of less than $10 million, are exempt
from Tier 2."

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Appal Energy]

Thor and Tom,

Please excuse me for being out of the loop or on the periphery
for this conversation up to this point. Too damned much work to
do, too many people wanting too much in too little time and
machines and people (me) who can only do so much in a 28 hour
day.

THOR:   Could you please site a reference to this... the
clarification of biodiesel as "non baseline"? Sorry but I'm
getting crapped out and am not on top of my game for the next
couple of days. Your assistance would be less time consuming.

> But my other point is that according to EPA's own
> publications in the federal register, it makes no
> distinction about "standard" fuels wrt biodiesel.  It
> classifies biodiesel as a "nonbaseline" fuel which IS
> exempt from the Tier 1 requirement for small
> businesses.

COMMENT: I largely agre with Thor's line of inquiry. Perusal over
40 CFR 79 and 80 leads me to many of the same conclusions,
although in the haste to discern their content it's easy to mis a
nuance or two.

Here a few blurbs written in response to an article prepared for
publication by someone else.

Relative to NBB fees and their equivalence to taxation:
*** [500 gallons / week  = ~$0.20 a gallon tax]
*** [250 gallons / week = ~$0.40 a gallon tax]
*** [150 gallons / week = ~$0.65 a gallon tax]

Relative to registration of a fuel with EPA:
*** [Registration of fuel to be used in a "motor vehicle" must be
accompanied by Tier test results or proof of legal access to
them. One cannot register first and then provide results or prove
to have access to them at a later date.

*** "The Act defines the term ``motor vehicle'' to mean any
self-propelled
vehicle designed for transporting persons or property on a street
or
highway." (40 CFR 79.33.a)

[Ag exemptions permit limitted use of off-road fuel on-road.]

*** "Act" means the Clean Air Act - 42 U.S.C. 1857 et seq., as
amended
by Pub. L. 91-604 (40 CFR 79.2.a)

Relative to the exemption status of manufacturers:
*** You can find reference to this exemption at the Cornell law
library
40 CFR 79.58.d.2
http://squid.law.cornell.edu:9000/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=40&PA
RT=79&SECTION=58&TYPE=TEXT
http://cfr.law.cornell.edu/cfr/cfr.php?title=40&type=part&value=7
9

*** And don't forget 40 CFR 80
http://cfr.law.cornell.edu/cfr/cfr.php?title=40&type=part&value=8
0

Relative to pushing the issue of "public monies" being used for
Tier testing:
*** There is the arbitration provision (as verbally referred to
me by an EPA
official), where if two parties cannot agree (for instance, the
NBB and a
small producer regarding access fees to Tier test results) one
party can
force the other party into arbitration. At such time all the
relevant facts
as to %s of federal monies versus private monies used to produce
Tier
results can be requested - general discovery issues.

[I most seriously imagine that this is exactly where the issue
must end up. Although a tentative "understanding," "ruling,"
"judgement" or "opinion" may qualify check-off dollars as "public
monies," there will be no judicial clarification until someone
presses the issue. This, in my personal opinion is the very low
quality card the NBB has in the hole, hoping for a straight,
knowing that the "opposition" has a Royal Flush. They will do
nothing in their disfavor until someone presses the issue.]

General common sense from the corporate perspective of Soy and
the NBB:
*** The real crux of the matter, which parallels the question of
federal/check-off monies, is why the NBB does not make any effort
to
avoid arbitration by providing some form of exemption/reduced fee
for
small producers. Sooner or later they are going to get "called"
on this one.

As to rationalization for failure to make exceptions for small
producers:
*** If all of a sudden there are numerous exemptions for small
producers
of on-road fuel literally dotting the landscape, they would
increase the
possibility of never seeing their Tier-test check-off dollars
returning to
their coffers. This in turn calls into question the stated
purpose of the
NBB. Do they serve the interests of the biodiesel industry or the
interests of the soy councils? Which brings one right back to
what you
elude to initially "Who created the biodiesel industry - small
home
producers or the soy councils?"

Thoughts from the grandstand

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: Thor Skov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel


> Tom,
>
> I agree with you about the federal funds testing.
> Heck, NREL contributed to some of the studies as well,
> and often any amount of federal money is enough to
> "contaminate" the rest; at least it works that way
> wit

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Thor Skov]

Tom,

I agree with you about the federal funds testing. 
Heck, NREL contributed to some of the studies as well,
and often any amount of federal money is enough to
"contaminate" the rest; at least it works that way
with federal grant programs.

But my other point is that according to EPA's own
publications in the federal register, it makes no
distinction about "standard" fuels wrt biodiesel.  It
classifies biodiesel as a "nonbaseline" fuel which IS
exempt from the Tier 1 requirement for small
businesses.

As I've said, they have told me differently on the
phone, but have yet to show me anything in writing. 
And it don't count unless it's in writing.

thor

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> My legalese is sometimes lacking, but I understand
> the Tier 2 exemption is 
> for any small company with less than $50,000,000 in
> sales per year (I 
> qualify), but the Tier 1 exemption is only for small
> companies of less than 
> $10,000,000 per year in sales MAKING A STANDARD
> FUEL.  Any amount of 
> biodiesel above a trace is not exempt from Tier 1
> testing. The objection I 
> have raised is that federal funds paid for
> representative biodiesel testing, 
> and it is not being limited among over 13 producers
> in about 20 locations, 
> from all types of material streams, yet is being
> denied use of to a small 
> producer, and many others like me.  Where is the
> sense in that?
> 
> Tom Leue


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

My legalese is sometimes lacking, but I understand the Tier 2 exemption is 
for any small company with less than $50,000,000 in sales per year (I 
qualify), but the Tier 1 exemption is only for small companies of less than 
$10,000,000 per year in sales MAKING A STANDARD FUEL.  Any amount of 
biodiesel above a trace is not exempt from Tier 1 testing. The objection I 
have raised is that federal funds paid for representative biodiesel testing, 
and it is not being limited among over 13 producers in about 20 locations, 
from all types of material streams, yet is being denied use of to a small 
producer, and many others like me.  Where is the sense in that?

Tom Leue


In a message dated 8/1/02 6:43:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Keith, Tom, et. al.,

The following Federal Register notice has some
relevant information.  Keith, this may be the notice
you were referring to.  I gleaned the following
points:

1.  Biodiesel (neat and blends) is considered a
non-baseline diesel fuel.
2.  There is no language that bars small-business
biodiesel producers from the Tier 1 and Tier 2 testing
exemptions.
3.  All categories of biodiesel are considered similar
for testing purposes (at this time).

Now, this afternoon I got a message from Joe Sopata at
EPA (lots of phone tag) in which he stated that any
blend <= 6% biodiesel was considered a nonbaseline
fuel, and anything over 6% was considered atypical,
and therefore not subject to the Tier 1 exemption. 
The thing is, I can't find that definition in any EPA
documents.  What I find is what I have quoted below. 
EPA tests biodiesel at 100% as the representative
group, and assumes that most applications will be a
20/80 blend.  I don't know where this <6% rule comes
from, but it may be a purely discretionary
interpretation, and not a written rule issued as a
regulation.

So, Tom, I don't know how EPA could be threatening to
shut you down on this basis.

I'll keep checking.

Thor

The reference:
[Federal Register: March 17, 1997 (Volume 62, Number
51)]
[Rules and Regulations]   
[Page 12564-12572]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr17mr97-18]

[selected snips]

"Biodiesel fuels and most blends of bio-and
conventional diesel fuel contain more than 1.0 weight
percent oxygen and thus, according to Sec.
79.56(e)(3)(ii)(B), fall into the non-baseline diesel
category. 
Under Sec. 79.56(e)(4)(ii)(B)(2), as adopted in May
1994, biodiesel fuels derived from vegetable oil
(``mixed alkyl esters of plant origin'') are grouped
separately from biodiesel fuels derived from animal
fat (``mixed alkyl esters of animal origin'')."

"In regard to selecting the biodiesel group
representative, EPA has decided that 100 percent
biofuel is most appropriate for the screening purposes
of Tiers 1 and 2. EPA has received industry
assurances, both in written comments (docket item
VII-D-19) and in follow-up communications,\5\ that the
use of 100 percent biofuel does not require
significant engine modifications. Furthermore, while
20 percent biodiesel formulations are expected to
predominate in the commercial marketplace during the
short term, both lower and higher percent blends may
see greater market penetration in the future."

"While the available data are not comprehensive, EPA
agrees with industry commenters that plant- and
animal-derived biodiesel fuels appear to have
generally similar chemical composition.  [Accordingly]
the Agency is today revising the grouping rule for
biodiesel F/FAs to permit plant and animal biodiesel
F/FAs to group together and be represented by one
group representative for compliance with Tier 1 and
Tier 2 testing requirements."

"EPA has carefully considered the commenters'
arguments in relation to other provisions of the F/FA
registration and testing program. The program is
structured around the concept that business entities
which profit from the sale of a F/FA product should
generally share responsibility for its potential
effects on the public health and welfare. Such
businesses have thus been required to share in the
burdens associated with determining these potential
effects. However, this general principle is tempered
by various provisions which recognize that other
factors, such as characteristics of the F/FA
marketplace and distribution system, must also be
taken into account when assigning the regulatory
burdens."

"The special provisions for small businesses 
(Sec. 79.58(d)) also grant exemptions based upon
financial and marketplace factors. Moreover,
provisions finalized in today's action permit this
exemption to ``pass through'' to customers of small 
businesses, regardless of the size of the customers,
to prevent disruption of marketplace relationships
(see section IV.B, below)."

--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Thor
> 
> If you look at this previous message:
>
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=887&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ
> 
> - from Shaine Tyson at NREL, via Tom Leue, it seems

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Thor Skov]

Keith, Tom, et. al.,

The following Federal Register notice has some
relevant information.  Keith, this may be the notice
you were referring to.  I gleaned the following
points:

1.  Biodiesel (neat and blends) is considered a
non-baseline diesel fuel.
2.  There is no language that bars small-business
biodiesel producers from the Tier 1 and Tier 2 testing
exemptions.
3.  All categories of biodiesel are considered similar
for testing purposes (at this time).

Now, this afternoon I got a message from Joe Sopata at
EPA (lots of phone tag) in which he stated that any
blend <= 6% biodiesel was considered a nonbaseline
fuel, and anything over 6% was considered atypical,
and therefore not subject to the Tier 1 exemption. 
The thing is, I can't find that definition in any EPA
documents.  What I find is what I have quoted below. 
EPA tests biodiesel at 100% as the representative
group, and assumes that most applications will be a
20/80 blend.  I don't know where this <6% rule comes
from, but it may be a purely discretionary
interpretation, and not a written rule issued as a
regulation.

So, Tom, I don't know how EPA could be threatening to
shut you down on this basis.

I'll keep checking.

Thor

The reference:
[Federal Register: March 17, 1997 (Volume 62, Number
51)]
[Rules and Regulations]   
[Page 12564-12572]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr17mr97-18]

[selected snips]

"Biodiesel fuels and most blends of bio-and
conventional diesel fuel contain more than 1.0 weight
percent oxygen and thus, according to Sec.
79.56(e)(3)(ii)(B), fall into the non-baseline diesel
category. 
Under Sec. 79.56(e)(4)(ii)(B)(2), as adopted in May
1994, biodiesel fuels derived from vegetable oil
(``mixed alkyl esters of plant origin'') are grouped
separately from biodiesel fuels derived from animal
fat (``mixed alkyl esters of animal origin'')."

"In regard to selecting the biodiesel group
representative, EPA has decided that 100 percent
biofuel is most appropriate for the screening purposes
of Tiers 1 and 2. EPA has received industry
assurances, both in written comments (docket item
VII-D-19) and in follow-up communications,\5\ that the
use of 100 percent biofuel does not require
significant engine modifications. Furthermore, while
20 percent biodiesel formulations are expected to
predominate in the commercial marketplace during the
short term, both lower and higher percent blends may
see greater market penetration in the future."

"While the available data are not comprehensive, EPA
agrees with industry commenters that plant- and
animal-derived biodiesel fuels appear to have
generally similar chemical composition.  [Accordingly]
the Agency is today revising the grouping rule for
biodiesel F/FAs to permit plant and animal biodiesel
F/FAs to group together and be represented by one
group representative for compliance with Tier 1 and
Tier 2 testing requirements."

"EPA has carefully considered the commenters'
arguments in relation to other provisions of the F/FA
registration and testing program. The program is
structured around the concept that business entities
which profit from the sale of a F/FA product should
generally share responsibility for its potential
effects on the public health and welfare. Such
businesses have thus been required to share in the
burdens associated with determining these potential
effects. However, this general principle is tempered
by various provisions which recognize that other
factors, such as characteristics of the F/FA
marketplace and distribution system, must also be
taken into account when assigning the regulatory
burdens."

"The special provisions for small businesses 
(Sec. 79.58(d)) also grant exemptions based upon
financial and marketplace factors. Moreover,
provisions finalized in today's action permit this
exemption to ``pass through'' to customers of small 
businesses, regardless of the size of the customers,
to prevent disruption of marketplace relationships
(see section IV.B, below)."

--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Thor
> 
> If you look at this previous message:
>
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=887&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ
> 
> - from Shaine Tyson at NREL, via Tom Leue, it seems
> biodiesel doesn't 
> qualify for expemtions under baseline or
> non-baseline because it's 
> not a petroleum fuel. Others also reached this
> conclusion.
> 
> So where did this spring from?
> 
> >AN EXCEPTION IS BIODIESEL, WHICH IS ONE
> >GROUP, EVEN THOUGH IT CONSISTS OF MIXED ALKYL
> ESTERS
> >OF PLANT AND/OR ANIMAL ORIGIN."  (My
> capitalization)`
> 
> I saw it at the url you gave.
> 


__
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List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Thor

If you look at this previous message:
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=887&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ

- from Shaine Tyson at NREL, via Tom Leue, it seems biodiesel doesn't 
qualify for expemtions under baseline or non-baseline because it's 
not a petroleum fuel. Others also reached this conclusion.

So where did this spring from?

>AN EXCEPTION IS BIODIESEL, WHICH IS ONE
>GROUP, EVEN THOUGH IT CONSISTS OF MIXED ALKYL ESTERS
>OF PLANT AND/OR ANIMAL ORIGIN."  (My capitalization)`

I saw it at the url you gave.

>Hi everyone,
>
>I have been on the phone with various government
>officials at various agencies.
>
>I have a guy at the Agricultural Marketing Service
>trying to answer the question of whether checkoff
>funds are considered private or public monies.
>
>Someone on this list asserted that it was with such
>funds that the Soybean Board/Council funded the NBB
>Tier 1 testing.  Is there any documentary proof of
>this?

Also previous:
>.pdf>http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/biodiesel/research_progress/24433 
>5a4.pdf
>it is rather apparent that the NBB/Soybean Councils laid 
>considerable inside track years ago. The entire document, circa 
>March 1997, is predicated upon the authoritative input of "the 
>biodiesel industry."

But that pdf isn't at that url anymore, nor can I find it on my hard 
disk. It's called "Titled: Fuels and Fuel Additives Registration 
Regulations" - possibly part of the same document you accessed, but I 
can't find it there. PDFs - GRRR! Pollution of the Web.

Best

Keith

>I also have a request in to EPA about Tier One testing
>requirements.  Joe Sapata left me a message saying
>that we could not use the NBB test data, but I don't
>know the rationale.
>
>Non-discrimination is an issue that Glenn Ellis
>brought up.  Where I see the discrimination, beyond
>denying public use of NBB testing data bought
>(putatively) with public money, is EPA's refusal to
>grant the Tier One testing exception to small
>biodiesel producers.
>
>[All the following info can be found at:
>http://www.epa.gov/icr/icrs/icrpages/1696ss03.htm]
>
>Specifically:  As part of its Information Collection
>Request, (EPA ICR Number 1696.03, OMB Control Number
>2060-0297) section 2(a), EPA writes:
>
>"There are several exceptions to the above, in order
>to lessen the burden for small businesses.
>Manufacturers of baseline and/or nonbaseline products,
>who have an annual sales revenue of less than $50
>million, are exempt from Tier 1 and Tier 2.
>Manufacturers of atypical products, who have an annual
>sales revenue of less than $10 million, are exempt
>from Tier 2."
>
>From what I can tell, biodiesel is considered a
>nonbaseline diesel group.  In its description of
>Diesel fuels and additives, EPA says (section 2(a)
>again),:  "Nonbaseline Group - diesel/additive
>elements are limited to CHONS (carbon, hydrogen,
>oxygen, nitrogen, and sulphur) and fuel oxygen is 1.0
>percent or greater.  A group is established for each
>oxygenate.  AN EXCEPTION IS BIODIESEL, WHICH IS ONE
>GROUP, EVEN THOUGH IT CONSISTS OF MIXED ALKYL ESTERS
>OF PLANT AND/OR ANIMAL ORIGIN."  (My capitalization)`
>
>Section 6 states,
>"Due to the costs, it is likely that only limited
>additional Tier 1 research will be done.  Future fuels
>and additives subject to Tier 1 will almost
>exclusively be those that can group with existing Tier
>1 data, and likely will come from manufacturers who
>have already paid for the Tier 1 data.  Thus, it is
>estimated that there will be only one new Tier 1
>submission over the next three years.  Of course,
>manufacturers of baseline and nonbaseline products
>with less that $50 million in annual revenue are
>exempt from Tier 1, so there will be continuing
>registration activity in that area.
>
>"In the previous ICR, it was concluded that the few
>new products for which a new Tier 1 would be required
>are likely to be in the atypical and/or nonbaseline
>categories, with an estimate Tier 1 cost of about
>$500,000 per product.  The National Biodiesel Board
>has estimated its Tier 1 cost for biodiesel at
>$600,000."
>
>Therefore, according to EPA's own words, it seems to
>me that if you have sales of less than $50 mil you're
>exempt.  Yet Tom Leue said he was threatened by EPA if
>he didn't provide Tier 1 test data (and I'm asssuming
>he had annual revenues <$50 mil.)
>
>Also, with regard to accessing the NBB test data,
>consider this.
>
>Regarding confidentiality, 3(f) states, "Some Tier 1
>data, particularly6 those related to composition,
>could be claimed as confidentiala dn would be subject
>to EPA's FOI provisions at 40 CFR 2."  But section
>2(b) asserts that " the data may also be used by
>non-EPA organizations...to review a product's
>potential toxicity,...to determine whether the
>submittal of further information would be duplicative,
>or to contact producers to use the registration
>already granted and share in the cost of previous
>co

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Thor Skov]

Hi everyone,

I have been on the phone with various government
officials at various agencies.

I have a guy at the Agricultural Marketing Service
trying to answer the question of whether checkoff
funds are considered private or public monies.

Someone on this list asserted that it was with such
funds that the Soybean Board/Council funded the NBB
Tier 1 testing.  Is there any documentary proof of
this?

I also have a request in to EPA about Tier One testing
requirements.  Joe Sapata left me a message saying
that we could not use the NBB test data, but I don't
know the rationale.

Non-discrimination is an issue that Glenn Ellis
brought up.  Where I see the discrimination, beyond
denying public use of NBB testing data bought
(putatively) with public money, is EPA's refusal to
grant the Tier One testing exception to small
biodiesel producers.

[All the following info can be found at: 
http://www.epa.gov/icr/icrs/icrpages/1696ss03.htm]

Specifically:  As part of its Information Collection
Request, (EPA ICR Number 1696.03, OMB Control Number
2060-0297) section 2(a), EPA writes:

"There are several exceptions to the above, in order
to lessen the burden for small businesses. 
Manufacturers of baseline and/or nonbaseline products,
who have an annual sales revenue of less than $50
million, are exempt from Tier 1 and Tier 2. 
Manufacturers of atypical products, who have an annual
sales revenue of less than $10 million, are exempt
from Tier 2."

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Eric Ruttan]

Ah Bah!  You speak as one who enjoys it too much and you forget the most 
honorable choice.

Rebel.

We canonized the men and women in our history for it, and we will in our 
future.

It is not unproductive to turn ingenuity into tax avoidance.  It saves money 
at least.  Tax Avoidance is a right.  Illegal Tax Avoidance is by definition 
illegal.

But the wise examination of law is always a good idea.

>From: Michael Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
>To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel
>Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:43:46 -0700 (PDT)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
>Now come on guys!
>
>Let's hear it for the poor old tax collectors!
>
>Their political masters want the taxes extracted
>without hurting those organizations who paid for them
>to gain office (such as oil companies and soy-bean and
>maize grower cartels).
>
>And let's remember that the tax-collectors have wives
>/husbands and kids and a mortgage and aging parents
>just like everyone else.
>
>Being in debt, (like most United States citizens),
>they can't afford to lose their job;
>
>No one loves them, (why even their own mother
>sometimes looks at them suspiciously).
>
>Their education is probably deficient in basic science
>and technology (and maybe much else???)
>
>And now they are told by a bunch of smart-alecks that
>wind-power, sun-light, waste cooking oil, abattoir
>wastes, kitchen waste and even harmless plants can be
>a source of energy used by ingenious people around the
>world to make their vehicle go from A to B.
>
>All of which, by law, must be taxed if the route A-B
>touches any US public road!
>
>They are not generally told how to do this but they do
>know that their salary and job depend on making a
>visible effort. So they resort to the tried and tested
>techniques of obfuscation, form-filling and  threats.
>And you, of course, turn your undoubted ingenuity into
>tax avoidance.
>
>All of which is pretty unproductive and time wasting
>but is apparently the price you must pay for living in
>an elected aristocracy rather than a true democracy.
>
>Need I move on to the public investment that has been
>made in the EPA and the need it now has to continually
>justify and support itself and its employees?
>
>In my opinion (which, as has often been pointed out,
>means I could easily be wrong), your choices are
>straight-forward enough:
>
>You get the rules changed: Lobbying, forming your own
>co-operative, paying for a barrage of spin-doctors,
>media-men and (horrors!) lawyers.
>
>You live by the rules: Pay your taxes, tithes and
>levies, perhaps write to your Congress-man (unless, of
>course, he is doing an 8 year stretch for corruption),
>you can even get out of biodiesel production and buy
>the regular stuff made by the companies and so
>(indirectly) contribute to party funds.
>
>You ca

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Michael Allen]

Now come on guys!

Let's hear it for the poor old tax collectors!

Their political masters want the taxes extracted
without hurting those organizations who paid for them
to gain office (such as oil companies and soy-bean and
maize grower cartels).

And let's remember that the tax-collectors have wives
/husbands and kids and a mortgage and aging parents
just like everyone else.

Being in debt, (like most United States citizens),
they can't afford to lose their job;

No one loves them, (why even their own mother
sometimes looks at them suspiciously).

Their education is probably deficient in basic science
and technology (and maybe much else???)

And now they are told by a bunch of smart-alecks that
wind-power, sun-light, waste cooking oil, abattoir
wastes, kitchen waste and even harmless plants can be
a source of energy used by ingenious people around the
world to make their vehicle go from A to B.

All of which, by law, must be taxed if the route A-B
touches any US public road!

They are not generally told how to do this but they do
know that their salary and job depend on making a
visible effort. So they resort to the tried and tested
techniques of obfuscation, form-filling and  threats.
And you, of course, turn your undoubted ingenuity into
tax avoidance.

All of which is pretty unproductive and time wasting
but is apparently the price you must pay for living in
an elected aristocracy rather than a true democracy.

Need I move on to the public investment that has been
made in the EPA and the need it now has to continually
justify and support itself and its employees?

In my opinion (which, as has often been pointed out,
means I could easily be wrong), your choices are
straight-forward enough: 

You get the rules changed: Lobbying, forming your own
co-operative, paying for a barrage of spin-doctors,
media-men and (horrors!) lawyers.

You live by the rules: Pay your taxes, tithes and
levies, perhaps write to your Congress-man (unless, of
course, he is doing an 8 year stretch for corruption),
you can even get out of biodiesel production and buy
the regular stuff made by the companies and so
(indirectly) contribute to party funds.

You can leave: Go to Europe, Canada, Australia, New
Zealand perhaps. Or (what is considered by some people
to be equivalent) you can just curl up and die.
(Besides, other countries, perhaps even the Hereafter,
have new laws which you have to learn about.) 

You can moan and groan: But this doesn't normally
achieve much unless you happen to like talk-back
radio.

But don't get sore. Remember that the rules that you
object to have been carefully put in place to protect
society from any new ideas (such as yours) which
originate outside of Corporate America.

Lots of luck!

Michael Allen
 
--- Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> better not charge your electric car with a wind or
> pv source ... :-)
> 
> in order to charge me road tax, one would have to
> determine how much svo I
> use ..
> 
> 
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> & Discussion Boards:
> http://www.green-trust.org
> Renewable Energy Pages -
> http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 1:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for
> Biodiesel
> 
> 
> > Hi Thor-
> >
> > The federal definition of "fuel" includes any
> substance capable of
> releasing
> > energy or power by combustion or other chemical or
> physical reaction. That
> > about covers anything other than sneeze power.
> Looks like all of those SVO
> > conversions are liable for unpaid road tax. I
> believe the minimum fine for
> > using a vehicle on the road with untaxed fuel is
> $2000. (tax section 6714
> > (a)(3))
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 7/27/02 1:00:39 PM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > << Tom,
> >
> > Any idea if SVO counts as a personal use fuel?
> >
> > thor
> >
> > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > Hi Keith,
> > >
> > > I try to keep myself far from legal matters as
> > > possible, but here is my
> > > belief. Commerce is defined under federal codes
> as
> > > selling or bartering. I
> > > don't have a reference to that, but it should
> not be
> > > hard to confirm.  As you
> > > imply, it is hard to document barter
> arrangements,
> > > but if something was to go
> > > big scale, it could be a vulnerability for
> federal
> > > prosecution.
> > >
> > > Road tax is supposed to be paid on all fuel used
> for
> > > road transportation.
> > &

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Steve Spence]

better not charge your electric car with a wind or pv source ... :-)

in order to charge me road tax, one would have to determine how much svo I
use ..


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards:
http://www.green-trust.org
Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel


> Hi Thor-
>
> The federal definition of "fuel" includes any substance capable of
releasing
> energy or power by combustion or other chemical or physical reaction. That
> about covers anything other than sneeze power. Looks like all of those SVO
> conversions are liable for unpaid road tax. I believe the minimum fine for
> using a vehicle on the road with untaxed fuel is $2000. (tax section 6714
> (a)(3))
>
> Tom
>
>
> In a message dated 7/27/02 1:00:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> << Tom,
>
> Any idea if SVO counts as a personal use fuel?
>
> thor
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Hi Keith,
> >
> > I try to keep myself far from legal matters as
> > possible, but here is my
> > belief. Commerce is defined under federal codes as
> > selling or bartering. I
> > don't have a reference to that, but it should not be
> > hard to confirm.  As you
> > imply, it is hard to document barter arrangements,
> > but if something was to go
> > big scale, it could be a vulnerability for federal
> > prosecution.
> >
> > Road tax is supposed to be paid on all fuel used for
> > road transportation.
> > This is the basis of the multi-thousand dollar fines
> > some truckers have paid
> > when it was discovered that they were using un-taxed
> > fuel in trucks. As you
> > know, the standard test for that is to put a few
> > drops of fuel from a suspect
> > tank on a piece of blotter paper and look for the
> > tell-tale red dye of
> > untaxed fuel. But, surprise, no red dye in
> > biodiesel, so the chances of
> > getting caught are less. So far no one has reported
> > this situation to my
> > knowledge. And yes, tax is due on personal use fuel-
> > quarterly on the Excise
> > Tax forms for federal road tax, and ususally monthly
> > on state tax forms. The
> > postage alone will cost more than the tax payments
> > for the personal user.  I
> > paid over $700 last year in federal and state tax
> > payments, but the EPA says
> > they will use that as evidence I'm violating 40CFR79
> > if I make more tax
> > payments for other than personal use, so I've
> > stopped for a while until this
> > gets sorted out.
> >
> > Tom Leue
> >
> > In a message dated 7/26/02 11:25:27 PM,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > << Hello again Tom
> >
> > >In a message dated 7/22/02 10:11:41 PM,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > >
> > ><< Hello Tom
> >
> > 
> >
> > >The EPA says they will
> > > >fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they
> > find your are putting
> > > >biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling
> > it or bartering it.
> > >
> > >Bartering it? They actually specify that?
> > >
> > >---Yeah, its the legal definition of "commerce"---
> >
> > Sorry, whose definition? The EPA's specifically, in
> > this context? Or
> > generally? Barter might be commerce, but it's
> > virtually impossible to
> > regulate it. Or even to prove it, if you're smart,
> > seems to me. Two
> > parties give each other gifts on a semi-regular
> > basis. So?
> >
> > By the way, if you are selling it, who pays the road
> > tax? Is there
> > any road tax on fuel you make yourself for your own
> > use in the US?
> >
> > Keith >> >>
>
>
>
> Biofuels at Journey to Forever
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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> http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
> List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
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>
>
>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

OK, perhaps thats true, but remember that the federal restriction is for 
selling or bartering either fuel or fuel additives. Don't go into a biodiesel 
business blindly. Its about a lot more than road tax.

Tom


In a message dated 7/28/02 1:23:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< If you use it as a fuel additive there is no road tax.
State Taxes tho.

So as long as you blend it in the us your ok.

No restrictions on blend ratios in federal law.

Eric >>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Eric Ruttan]

If you use it as a fuel additive there is no road tax.
State Taxes tho.

So as long as you blend it in the us your ok.

No restrictions on blend ratios in federal law.

Eric

>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
>To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel
>Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 15:00:52 +0900
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Received: from [66.218.66.70] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id 
>MHotMailBF0CD3C7000A4136E80942DA424687FB63; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:03:38 -0700
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>
>Hi Tom
>
>Thanks for clearing that up. One hears very little about road tax in
>the US, one hears a very great deal about it in the UK. From what you
>say about BD, the less one hears about it in the US the better, eh?
>LOL! S!
>
>Big-time barters, well yes, different. Why do I suddenly find myself
>thinking of Big Oil campaign contributions?? Small-time stuff should
>go under the radar screen mostly, I think. Also it's almost
>impossible to estimate the scale of the "problem", and without a
>damage estimate it's unlikely anyone will take concerted action.
>
>I get the idea there are plenty of ways round this EPA hassle for
>small-timers with a bit of imagination, and with the small-timer's
>one huge advantage - local contact.
>
>Best
>
>Keith
>
>
> >Hi Keith,
> >
> >I try to keep myself far from legal matters as possible, but here is my
> >belief. Commerce is defined under federal codes as selling or bartering. 
>I
> >don't have a reference to that, but it should not be hard to confirm.  As 
>you
> >imply, it is hard to document barter arrangements, but if something was 
>to go
> >big scale, it could be a vulnerability for federal prosecution.
> >
> >Road tax is supposed to be paid on all fuel used for road transportation.
> >This is the basis of the multi-thousand dollar fines some truckers have 
>paid
> >when it was discovered that they were using un-taxed fuel in trucks. As 
>you
> >know, the standard test for that is to put a few drops of fuel from a 
>suspect
> >tank on a piece of blotter paper and look for the tell-tale red dye of
> >untaxed fuel. But, surprise, no red dye in biodiesel, so the chances of
> >getting caught are less. So far no one has reported this situation to my
> >knowledge. And yes, tax is due on personal use fuel- quarterly on the 
>Excise
> >Tax forms for federal road tax, and ususally monthly on state tax forms. 
>The
> >postage alone will cost more than the tax payments for the personal user. 
>  I
> >paid over $700 last year in federal and state tax payments, but the EPA 
>says
> >they will use that as evidence I'm violating 40CFR79 if I make more tax
> >payments for other than personal use, so I've stopped for a while until 
>this
> >gets sorted out.
> >
> >Tom Leue
> >
> >In a message dated 7/26/02 11:25:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>writes:
> >
> ><< Hello again Tom
> >
> > >In a message dated 7/22/02 10:11:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>writes:
> > >
> > ><< Hello Tom
> >
> >
> >
> > >The EPA says they will
> > > >fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are 
>putting
> > > >biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or bartering it.
> > >
> > >Bartering it? They actually specify that?
> 

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

Hi Tom

Thanks for clearing that up. One hears very little about road tax in 
the US, one hears a very great deal about it in the UK. From what you 
say about BD, the less one hears about it in the US the better, eh? 
LOL! S!

Big-time barters, well yes, different. Why do I suddenly find myself 
thinking of Big Oil campaign contributions?? Small-time stuff should 
go under the radar screen mostly, I think. Also it's almost 
impossible to estimate the scale of the "problem", and without a 
damage estimate it's unlikely anyone will take concerted action.

I get the idea there are plenty of ways round this EPA hassle for 
small-timers with a bit of imagination, and with the small-timer's 
one huge advantage - local contact.

Best

Keith


>Hi Keith,
>
>I try to keep myself far from legal matters as possible, but here is my
>belief. Commerce is defined under federal codes as selling or bartering. I
>don't have a reference to that, but it should not be hard to confirm.  As you
>imply, it is hard to document barter arrangements, but if something was to go
>big scale, it could be a vulnerability for federal prosecution.
>
>Road tax is supposed to be paid on all fuel used for road transportation.
>This is the basis of the multi-thousand dollar fines some truckers have paid
>when it was discovered that they were using un-taxed fuel in trucks. As you
>know, the standard test for that is to put a few drops of fuel from a suspect
>tank on a piece of blotter paper and look for the tell-tale red dye of
>untaxed fuel. But, surprise, no red dye in biodiesel, so the chances of
>getting caught are less. So far no one has reported this situation to my
>knowledge. And yes, tax is due on personal use fuel- quarterly on the Excise
>Tax forms for federal road tax, and ususally monthly on state tax forms. The
>postage alone will cost more than the tax payments for the personal user.  I
>paid over $700 last year in federal and state tax payments, but the EPA says
>they will use that as evidence I'm violating 40CFR79 if I make more tax
>payments for other than personal use, so I've stopped for a while until this
>gets sorted out.
>
>Tom Leue
>
>In a message dated 7/26/02 11:25:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
><< Hello again Tom
>
> >In a message dated 7/22/02 10:11:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> ><< Hello Tom
>
>
>
> >The EPA says they will
> > >fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are putting
> > >biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or bartering it.
> >
> >Bartering it? They actually specify that?
> >
> >---Yeah, its the legal definition of "commerce"---
>
>Sorry, whose definition? The EPA's specifically, in this context? Or
>generally? Barter might be commerce, but it's virtually impossible to
>regulate it. Or even to prove it, if you're smart, seems to me. Two
>parties give each other gifts on a semi-regular basis. So?
>
>By the way, if you are selling it, who pays the road tax? Is there
>any road tax on fuel you make yourself for your own use in the US?
>
>Keith >>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Thor Skov]

so how the heck does it work with electric vehicles
then?  That's a chemical reaction.

-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Thor-
> 
> The federal definition of "fuel" includes any
> substance capable of releasing 
> energy or power by combustion or other chemical or
> physical reaction. That 
> about covers anything other than sneeze power. Looks
> like all of those SVO 
> conversions are liable for unpaid road tax. I
> believe the minimum fine for 
> using a vehicle on the road with untaxed fuel is
> $2000. (tax section 6714 
> (a)(3))
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> In a message dated 7/27/02 1:00:39 PM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> << Tom,
> 
> Any idea if SVO counts as a personal use fuel?
> 
> thor
> 
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Hi Keith,
> > 
> > I try to keep myself far from legal matters as
> > possible, but here is my 
> > belief. Commerce is defined under federal codes as
> > selling or bartering. I 
> > don't have a reference to that, but it should not
> be
> > hard to confirm.  As you 
> > imply, it is hard to document barter arrangements,
> > but if something was to go 
> > big scale, it could be a vulnerability for federal
> > prosecution.
> > 
> > Road tax is supposed to be paid on all fuel used
> for
> > road transportation. 
> > This is the basis of the multi-thousand dollar
> fines
> > some truckers have paid 
> > when it was discovered that they were using
> un-taxed
> > fuel in trucks. As you 
> > know, the standard test for that is to put a few
> > drops of fuel from a suspect 
> > tank on a piece of blotter paper and look for the
> > tell-tale red dye of 
> > untaxed fuel. But, surprise, no red dye in
> > biodiesel, so the chances of 
> > getting caught are less. So far no one has
> reported
> > this situation to my 
> > knowledge. And yes, tax is due on personal use
> fuel-
> > quarterly on the Excise 
> > Tax forms for federal road tax, and ususally
> monthly
> > on state tax forms. The 
> > postage alone will cost more than the tax payments
> > for the personal user.  I 
> > paid over $700 last year in federal and state tax
> > payments, but the EPA says 
> > they will use that as evidence I'm violating
> 40CFR79
> > if I make more tax 
> > payments for other than personal use, so I've
> > stopped for a while until this 
> > gets sorted out.
> > 
> > Tom Leue
> > 
> > In a message dated 7/26/02 11:25:27 PM,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > 
> > << Hello again Tom
> > 
> > >In a message dated 7/22/02 10:11:41 PM,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > >
> > ><< Hello Tom
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >The EPA says they will
> > > >fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if
> they
> > find your are putting
> > > >biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling
> > it or bartering it.
> > >
> > >Bartering it? They actually specify that?
> > >
> > >---Yeah, its the legal definition of
> "commerce"---
> > 
> > Sorry, whose definition? The EPA's specifically,
> in
> > this context? Or 
> > generally? Barter might be commerce, but it's
> > virtually impossible to 
> > regulate it. Or even to prove it, if you're smart,
> > seems to me. Two 
> > parties give each other gifts on a semi-regular
> > basis. So?
> > 
> > By the way, if you are selling it, who pays the
> road
> > tax? Is there 
> > any road tax on fuel you make yourself for your
> own
> > use in the US?
> > 
> > Keith >> >>
> 
> 


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

Hi Thor-

The federal definition of "fuel" includes any substance capable of releasing 
energy or power by combustion or other chemical or physical reaction. That 
about covers anything other than sneeze power. Looks like all of those SVO 
conversions are liable for unpaid road tax. I believe the minimum fine for 
using a vehicle on the road with untaxed fuel is $2000. (tax section 6714 
(a)(3))

Tom


In a message dated 7/27/02 1:00:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Tom,

Any idea if SVO counts as a personal use fuel?

thor

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Keith,
> 
> I try to keep myself far from legal matters as
> possible, but here is my 
> belief. Commerce is defined under federal codes as
> selling or bartering. I 
> don't have a reference to that, but it should not be
> hard to confirm.  As you 
> imply, it is hard to document barter arrangements,
> but if something was to go 
> big scale, it could be a vulnerability for federal
> prosecution.
> 
> Road tax is supposed to be paid on all fuel used for
> road transportation. 
> This is the basis of the multi-thousand dollar fines
> some truckers have paid 
> when it was discovered that they were using un-taxed
> fuel in trucks. As you 
> know, the standard test for that is to put a few
> drops of fuel from a suspect 
> tank on a piece of blotter paper and look for the
> tell-tale red dye of 
> untaxed fuel. But, surprise, no red dye in
> biodiesel, so the chances of 
> getting caught are less. So far no one has reported
> this situation to my 
> knowledge. And yes, tax is due on personal use fuel-
> quarterly on the Excise 
> Tax forms for federal road tax, and ususally monthly
> on state tax forms. The 
> postage alone will cost more than the tax payments
> for the personal user.  I 
> paid over $700 last year in federal and state tax
> payments, but the EPA says 
> they will use that as evidence I'm violating 40CFR79
> if I make more tax 
> payments for other than personal use, so I've
> stopped for a while until this 
> gets sorted out.
> 
> Tom Leue
> 
> In a message dated 7/26/02 11:25:27 PM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> << Hello again Tom
> 
> >In a message dated 7/22/02 10:11:41 PM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> ><< Hello Tom
> 
> 
> 
> >The EPA says they will
> > >fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they
> find your are putting
> > >biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling
> it or bartering it.
> >
> >Bartering it? They actually specify that?
> >
> >---Yeah, its the legal definition of "commerce"---
> 
> Sorry, whose definition? The EPA's specifically, in
> this context? Or 
> generally? Barter might be commerce, but it's
> virtually impossible to 
> regulate it. Or even to prove it, if you're smart,
> seems to me. Two 
> parties give each other gifts on a semi-regular
> basis. So?
> 
> By the way, if you are selling it, who pays the road
> tax? Is there 
> any road tax on fuel you make yourself for your own
> use in the US?
> 
> Keith >> >>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Thor Skov]

Tom,

Any idea if SVO counts as a personal use fuel?

thor

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Keith,
> 
> I try to keep myself far from legal matters as
> possible, but here is my 
> belief. Commerce is defined under federal codes as
> selling or bartering. I 
> don't have a reference to that, but it should not be
> hard to confirm.  As you 
> imply, it is hard to document barter arrangements,
> but if something was to go 
> big scale, it could be a vulnerability for federal
> prosecution.
> 
> Road tax is supposed to be paid on all fuel used for
> road transportation. 
> This is the basis of the multi-thousand dollar fines
> some truckers have paid 
> when it was discovered that they were using un-taxed
> fuel in trucks. As you 
> know, the standard test for that is to put a few
> drops of fuel from a suspect 
> tank on a piece of blotter paper and look for the
> tell-tale red dye of 
> untaxed fuel. But, surprise, no red dye in
> biodiesel, so the chances of 
> getting caught are less. So far no one has reported
> this situation to my 
> knowledge. And yes, tax is due on personal use fuel-
> quarterly on the Excise 
> Tax forms for federal road tax, and ususally monthly
> on state tax forms. The 
> postage alone will cost more than the tax payments
> for the personal user.  I 
> paid over $700 last year in federal and state tax
> payments, but the EPA says 
> they will use that as evidence I'm violating 40CFR79
> if I make more tax 
> payments for other than personal use, so I've
> stopped for a while until this 
> gets sorted out.
> 
> Tom Leue
> 
> In a message dated 7/26/02 11:25:27 PM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> << Hello again Tom
> 
> >In a message dated 7/22/02 10:11:41 PM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> ><< Hello Tom
> 
> 
> 
> >The EPA says they will
> > >fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they
> find your are putting
> > >biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling
> it or bartering it.
> >
> >Bartering it? They actually specify that?
> >
> >---Yeah, its the legal definition of "commerce"---
> 
> Sorry, whose definition? The EPA's specifically, in
> this context? Or 
> generally? Barter might be commerce, but it's
> virtually impossible to 
> regulate it. Or even to prove it, if you're smart,
> seems to me. Two 
> parties give each other gifts on a semi-regular
> basis. So?
> 
> By the way, if you are selling it, who pays the road
> tax? Is there 
> any road tax on fuel you make yourself for your own
> use in the US?
> 
> Keith >>
> 
> 


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

Hi Keith,

I try to keep myself far from legal matters as possible, but here is my 
belief. Commerce is defined under federal codes as selling or bartering. I 
don't have a reference to that, but it should not be hard to confirm.  As you 
imply, it is hard to document barter arrangements, but if something was to go 
big scale, it could be a vulnerability for federal prosecution.

Road tax is supposed to be paid on all fuel used for road transportation. 
This is the basis of the multi-thousand dollar fines some truckers have paid 
when it was discovered that they were using un-taxed fuel in trucks. As you 
know, the standard test for that is to put a few drops of fuel from a suspect 
tank on a piece of blotter paper and look for the tell-tale red dye of 
untaxed fuel. But, surprise, no red dye in biodiesel, so the chances of 
getting caught are less. So far no one has reported this situation to my 
knowledge. And yes, tax is due on personal use fuel- quarterly on the Excise 
Tax forms for federal road tax, and ususally monthly on state tax forms. The 
postage alone will cost more than the tax payments for the personal user.  I 
paid over $700 last year in federal and state tax payments, but the EPA says 
they will use that as evidence I'm violating 40CFR79 if I make more tax 
payments for other than personal use, so I've stopped for a while until this 
gets sorted out.

Tom Leue

In a message dated 7/26/02 11:25:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Hello again Tom

>In a message dated 7/22/02 10:11:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
><< Hello Tom



>The EPA says they will
> >fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are putting
> >biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or bartering it.
>
>Bartering it? They actually specify that?
>
>---Yeah, its the legal definition of "commerce"---

Sorry, whose definition? The EPA's specifically, in this context? Or 
generally? Barter might be commerce, but it's virtually impossible to 
regulate it. Or even to prove it, if you're smart, seems to me. Two 
parties give each other gifts on a semi-regular basis. So?

By the way, if you are selling it, who pays the road tax? Is there 
any road tax on fuel you make yourself for your own use in the US?

Keith >>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello again Tom

>In a message dated 7/22/02 10:11:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
><< Hello Tom



>The EPA says they will
> >fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are putting
> >biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or bartering it.
>
>Bartering it? They actually specify that?
>
>---Yeah, its the legal definition of "commerce"---

Sorry, whose definition? The EPA's specifically, in this context? Or 
generally? Barter might be commerce, but it's virtually impossible to 
regulate it. Or even to prove it, if you're smart, seems to me. Two 
parties give each other gifts on a semi-regular basis. So?

By the way, if you are selling it, who pays the road tax? Is there 
any road tax on fuel you make yourself for your own use in the US?

Keith


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

Attached is a pdf file for 40 CFR 79, in the most recent version. This is the 
restrictive code for a fuel or a fuel additive.  I hope this file format 
allows attachments.  If not, do a search for this CFR. 

Tom Leue


In a message dated 7/24/02 10:23:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Well I would like to see the ruling or law the EPA is enforcing on 
biodiesel. Also what gives Archer-Daniels-Midland Co the right to set up 
and control a public resource? Since the testing used public money.
A proper administration of this information an use should be held by a 
CO OP of producers not a signal company. If any one has rights to set a 
use fee it would be the person or persons the came up with the process. 
So I think that shining the light of day on this dark deal between 
Archer-Daniels-Midland an EPA would fry some Fed bacon an 
Archer-Daniels-Midland.
 >>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Lee Sheppard]

Well this means that the EPA and  ADM have no legal rights to the 
testing or regulation of biodiesel. The only issue that the EPA can 
legally address is the processing is done safely. ADM is committing 
fraud in demanding usage  fee or anything for processing biodiesel. NBB 
has not standing in requiring any kind of fee. I should be paying to get 
people to produce biodiesel.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>The Tier 1 and Tier 2 testing requirement submittals are available on the 
>web. I know, I should have the reference, but I don't. I've got the pdf 
>files, but not where they came from. Yahoo to the rescue. Anyway, the Tier 2 
>test results on the web specifically state "not copyrighted, performed under 
>contract to the NBB" or like that. I have a letter from Dr. Shane Tyson of 
>the National Renewable Energy Board stating that this work was done under 
>federal funding and as such is in the public domain.
>
>Tom Leue
>
>
>In a message dated 7/23/02 10:52:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
><< Well if the process is public domain then any one can use it. It sounds 
>like the scam is Archer-Daniels-Midland holding the only certified test 
>sample by the EPA. The EPA also has know right to restrict use of public 
>domain information or processes. So do you have access to the 
>information that supports Archer-Daniels-Midland claim and the EPA's?
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I don't know much about the state laws or local bylaws, but here is the 
>>federal picture: The EPA requires registation of all fuel producers for 
>>non-standard fuels, that is including biodiesel. They also require testing 
>>
>>
>of 
>  
>
>>these fuels. They claim that even though federal funds were used to test the 
>>only sample that has been processed to date, they will not allow this public 
>>domain information to be used unless the user buys the rights from a company 
>>set up by Archer-Daniels-Midland Co. This company (the NBB) is supposed to 
>>
>>
>be 
>  
>
>>a non-profit, but they require usury fees for small producers, such that it 
>>will increase your costs by a dollar a gallon or so. The EPA says they will 
>>fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are putting 
>>biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or bartering it.  The 
>>
>>
>cost 
>  
>
>>of testing a single sample is expected to be about $1,000,000, according to 
>>the EPA. The EPA says there are no further grants available for this testing 
>>costs. The EPA doen't care about issues like quality, ASTM testing, etc., 
>>
>>
>but 
>  
>
>>wants to see the receipt for the purchase of the rights to use the one 
>>sample. The NBB requires thoussands of dollars in fees per year, testing, 
>>
>>
>and 
>  
>
>>a signed committment to pay $100,000 within 30 days as a cash bond if you 
>>
>>
>are 
>  
>
>>late with your quarterly fees or are planning to get out of the business. 
>>
>>
>The 
>  
>
>>bond will be returned by the year 2015, without interest, if the NBB feels 
>>they have recovered sufficient return on their (grant sponsored) investment. 
>>Otherwise, they keep some or all of the bond. In other words, 
>>Archer-Daniels-Midland has this entire area sewed up and small producers 
>>should not apply. The EPA official says that I should never have started 
>>making biodiesel in the first place, and am subject to retroactive fines 
>>
>>
>back 
>  
>
>>to the day I first started paying the road tax.
>>
>>If you want to find out what to do about this, write back.
>>
>>Tom Leue
>>Homestead Inc.
>>Yellow Biodiesel
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Biofuels at Journey to Forever
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>Biofuel at WebConX
>http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
>List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>
>
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Lee Sheppard]

Well I would like to see the ruling or law the EPA is enforcing on 
biodiesel. Also what gives Archer-Daniels-Midland Co the right to set up 
and control a public resource? Since the testing used public money.
A proper administration of this information an use should be held by a 
CO OP of producers not a signal company. If any one has rights to set a 
use fee it would be the person or persons the came up with the process. 
So I think that shining the light of day on this dark deal between 
Archer-Daniels-Midland an EPA would fry some Fed bacon an 
Archer-Daniels-Midland.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>In a message dated 7/22/02 10:11:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
><< Hello Tom
>
>  
>
>>I don't know much about the state laws or local bylaws, but here is the
>>federal picture: The EPA requires registation of all fuel producers for
>>non-standard fuels, that is including biodiesel. They also require testing of
>>these fuels. They claim that even though federal funds were used to test the
>>only sample that has been processed to date, they will not allow this public
>>domain information to be used unless the user buys the rights from a company
>>set up by Archer-Daniels-Midland Co. This company (the NBB) is supposed to be
>>a non-profit, but they require usury fees for small producers, such that it
>>will increase your costs by a dollar a gallon or so. The EPA says they will
>>fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are putting
>>biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or bartering it.
>>
>>
>
>Bartering it? They actually specify that?
>
>---Yeah, its the legal definition of "commerce"---
>
>  
>
>>The cost
>>of testing a single sample is expected to be about $1,000,000, according to
>>the EPA. The EPA says there are no further grants available for this testing
>>costs. The EPA doen't care about issues like quality, ASTM testing, etc., but
>>wants to see the receipt for the purchase of the rights to use the one
>>sample. The NBB requires thoussands of dollars in fees per year, testing, and
>>a signed committment to pay $100,000 within 30 days as a cash bond if you are
>>late with your quarterly fees or are planning to get out of the business. The
>>bond will be returned by the year 2015, without interest, if the NBB feels
>>they have recovered sufficient return on their (grant sponsored) investment.
>>Otherwise, they keep some or all of the bond. In other words,
>>Archer-Daniels-Midland has this entire area sewed up and small producers
>>should not apply. The EPA official says that I should never have started
>>making biodiesel in the first place, and am subject to retroactive fines back
>>to the day I first started paying the road tax.
>>
>>If you want to find out what to do about this, write back.
>>
>>
>
>Well, why don't you tell us? I'm sure all US list members want to 
>know, and probably most others are very interested.
>
>Best
>
>Keith Addison
>
>---OK. There are lots of ways around the good old government, perhaps your 
>readers can think of a few more. We could have a kind of contest, ways to 
>circumvent the government restrictions on making biodiesel.  First prize: 5 
>gallons of biodiesel, compliments of me.  You see, its not illegal to give 
>away biodiesel. You also can award it, send it out on a trial basis, lend it, 
>raffle it, rent it (?), whatever. I can't strain my brain on thinking of 
>other ways to get around the EPA.  But my way is working well. I no longer 
>make Yellow Brand PREMIUM Biodiesel, and I have shut down my filling station 
>in Ashfield, MA. Please don't call me asking me for biodiesel fuel, if I'm in 
>a bad mood I'll just say I don't sell that stuff and hang up.
>
>However... Homestead Inc. is please to announce the immediate availability of 
>Yellow Biodiesel Degreaser. Now in handy recycled 5 gallon containers. MSDS 
>available on request. Yellow Biodiesel Degreaser is the best available 
>solution to use in mechanics parts washing machines. It is far less expensive 
>that the competition's fluid, it will last as long or longer too. Come see it 
>in action at L&L Automotive in Buckland, MA and other locations nearby. 
>Besides being the best available parts washing compound, Yellow Biodiesel 
>Degreaser is far cheaper to dispose of when fully used: rather than paying 
>for disposal services like the major brand requires, just add used Yellow 
>Biodiesel Degreaser to your waste oil burner system, and it will actually 
>clean up your emissions! ! !
>
>Yellow Biodiesel Degreaser is available in UPS shippable 5 gallon recycled 
>containers. The cost is only $12.50 plus shipping. Call in advance. Limit one 
>package per customer per day. Read more about it at www.yellowbiodiesel.com
>
>or, write Tom Leue at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please call only after email intr
>oductions.
>
>  
>
>>Tom Leue
>>Homestead Inc.
>>Yellow Biodiesel >>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Biofuels at Journey to Forever
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>Biofuel at WebCon

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

The Tier 1 and Tier 2 testing requirement submittals are available on the 
web. I know, I should have the reference, but I don't. I've got the pdf 
files, but not where they came from. Yahoo to the rescue. Anyway, the Tier 2 
test results on the web specifically state "not copyrighted, performed under 
contract to the NBB" or like that. I have a letter from Dr. Shane Tyson of 
the National Renewable Energy Board stating that this work was done under 
federal funding and as such is in the public domain.

Tom Leue


In a message dated 7/23/02 10:52:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Well if the process is public domain then any one can use it. It sounds 
like the scam is Archer-Daniels-Midland holding the only certified test 
sample by the EPA. The EPA also has know right to restrict use of public 
domain information or processes. So do you have access to the 
information that supports Archer-Daniels-Midland claim and the EPA's?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>I don't know much about the state laws or local bylaws, but here is the 
>federal picture: The EPA requires registation of all fuel producers for 
>non-standard fuels, that is including biodiesel. They also require testing 
of 
>these fuels. They claim that even though federal funds were used to test the 
>only sample that has been processed to date, they will not allow this public 
>domain information to be used unless the user buys the rights from a company 
>set up by Archer-Daniels-Midland Co. This company (the NBB) is supposed to 
be 
>a non-profit, but they require usury fees for small producers, such that it 
>will increase your costs by a dollar a gallon or so. The EPA says they will 
>fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are putting 
>biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or bartering it.  The 
cost 
>of testing a single sample is expected to be about $1,000,000, according to 
>the EPA. The EPA says there are no further grants available for this testing 
>costs. The EPA doen't care about issues like quality, ASTM testing, etc., 
but 
>wants to see the receipt for the purchase of the rights to use the one 
>sample. The NBB requires thoussands of dollars in fees per year, testing, 
and 
>a signed committment to pay $100,000 within 30 days as a cash bond if you 
are 
>late with your quarterly fees or are planning to get out of the business. 
The 
>bond will be returned by the year 2015, without interest, if the NBB feels 
>they have recovered sufficient return on their (grant sponsored) investment. 
>Otherwise, they keep some or all of the bond. In other words, 
>Archer-Daniels-Midland has this entire area sewed up and small producers 
>should not apply. The EPA official says that I should never have started 
>making biodiesel in the first place, and am subject to retroactive fines 
back 
>to the day I first started paying the road tax.
>
>If you want to find out what to do about this, write back.
>
>Tom Leue
>Homestead Inc.
>Yellow Biodiesel
>
> >>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

In a message dated 7/22/02 10:11:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Hello Tom

>I don't know much about the state laws or local bylaws, but here is the
>federal picture: The EPA requires registation of all fuel producers for
>non-standard fuels, that is including biodiesel. They also require testing of
>these fuels. They claim that even though federal funds were used to test the
>only sample that has been processed to date, they will not allow this public
>domain information to be used unless the user buys the rights from a company
>set up by Archer-Daniels-Midland Co. This company (the NBB) is supposed to be
>a non-profit, but they require usury fees for small producers, such that it
>will increase your costs by a dollar a gallon or so. The EPA says they will
>fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are putting
>biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or bartering it.

Bartering it? They actually specify that?

---Yeah, its the legal definition of "commerce"---

>The cost
>of testing a single sample is expected to be about $1,000,000, according to
>the EPA. The EPA says there are no further grants available for this testing
>costs. The EPA doen't care about issues like quality, ASTM testing, etc., but
>wants to see the receipt for the purchase of the rights to use the one
>sample. The NBB requires thoussands of dollars in fees per year, testing, and
>a signed committment to pay $100,000 within 30 days as a cash bond if you are
>late with your quarterly fees or are planning to get out of the business. The
>bond will be returned by the year 2015, without interest, if the NBB feels
>they have recovered sufficient return on their (grant sponsored) investment.
>Otherwise, they keep some or all of the bond. In other words,
>Archer-Daniels-Midland has this entire area sewed up and small producers
>should not apply. The EPA official says that I should never have started
>making biodiesel in the first place, and am subject to retroactive fines back
>to the day I first started paying the road tax.
>
>If you want to find out what to do about this, write back.

Well, why don't you tell us? I'm sure all US list members want to 
know, and probably most others are very interested.

Best

Keith Addison

---OK. There are lots of ways around the good old government, perhaps your 
readers can think of a few more. We could have a kind of contest, ways to 
circumvent the government restrictions on making biodiesel.  First prize: 5 
gallons of biodiesel, compliments of me.  You see, its not illegal to give 
away biodiesel. You also can award it, send it out on a trial basis, lend it, 
raffle it, rent it (?), whatever. I can't strain my brain on thinking of 
other ways to get around the EPA.  But my way is working well. I no longer 
make Yellow Brand PREMIUM Biodiesel, and I have shut down my filling station 
in Ashfield, MA. Please don't call me asking me for biodiesel fuel, if I'm in 
a bad mood I'll just say I don't sell that stuff and hang up.

However... Homestead Inc. is please to announce the immediate availability of 
Yellow Biodiesel Degreaser. Now in handy recycled 5 gallon containers. MSDS 
available on request. Yellow Biodiesel Degreaser is the best available 
solution to use in mechanics parts washing machines. It is far less expensive 
that the competition's fluid, it will last as long or longer too. Come see it 
in action at L&L Automotive in Buckland, MA and other locations nearby. 
Besides being the best available parts washing compound, Yellow Biodiesel 
Degreaser is far cheaper to dispose of when fully used: rather than paying 
for disposal services like the major brand requires, just add used Yellow 
Biodiesel Degreaser to your waste oil burner system, and it will actually 
clean up your emissions! ! !

Yellow Biodiesel Degreaser is available in UPS shippable 5 gallon recycled 
containers. The cost is only $12.50 plus shipping. Call in advance. Limit one 
package per customer per day. Read more about it at www.yellowbiodiesel.com

or, write Tom Leue at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please call only after email intr
oductions.

>Tom Leue
>Homestead Inc.
>Yellow Biodiesel >>


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http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuel at WebConX
http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Appal Energy]

Whether or not the Health Affects Data is or is not public domain
would depend very much upon how soybean checkoff dollars are
classified.

Congress intiated the checkoff program, where a $0.05 tax (the
"checkoff") per bushel is paid by the buyer of the beans. This
money is in turn funneled to soybean interests with the purpose
of promoting soy production and its consumption.

The problem lays in the fact that the federally mandated "tax" is
utilized by private concerns, not government institutions. So
whether or not "government under the sunshine laws" apply is
doubtful (enter lawyers, stage left). However, laws governing the
use of public moneys might apply, assuming that checkoff dollars
fall under the banner of "public monies" (enter more lawyers,
stage right).

What is evident is the fact that while the Soy Councils/National
Biodiesel Board took measures to conduct the Health Affects
studies, they are in reality none too thrilled with the aspect of
having to shell out one or two million checkoff dollars that
would have been spent elsewhere. As a result of their displeasure
with this expense, they have in turn sought to be reimbursed via
the membership fees and production tax scheme for those who
access the Health Affects Data (HAD), either as members or
non-members.

As well, they have instituted the $100,000 bond that must be
presented by non-members who desire access to the HAD, or members
who drop out but continue to manufacture biodiesel for sale "in
commerce." They do not put this money into an escrow account and
only return the face value of the bond to the remitter in 2015 -
presuming they have recovered all their checkoff dollars by that
time.

The remaining questions that deserve to be answered are, What if
no one had ever heard of biodiesel and the Soy Councils had never
expended the $1 or $2 million on Health Affects studies? They
would have turned around and spent the same monies on other soy
promoting endeavors.  Would they have also sought reimbursement
of these checkoff dollars over time as they are seeking relative
to their biodiesel endeavors?

One does have to ask if they have the legitimate right to expect
reimbursement of spent checkoff dollars when expended in the very
type of endeavor that the checkoff was created for in the first
place.

But the question of whether or not the checkoff dollars have a
"public monies" taint that makes the HAD public domain remains
the first issue at hand.

There is bound to be an abundant number of professional legal
minds who have worked in such an area, capable of giving a pretty
secure legal opinion without much effort.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: Lee Sheppard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel


> Well if the process is public domain then any one can use it.
It sounds
> like the scam is Archer-Daniels-Midland holding the only
certified test
> sample by the EPA. The EPA also has know right to restrict use
of public
> domain information or processes. So do you have access to the
> information that supports Archer-Daniels-Midland claim and the
EPA's?
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >I don't know much about the state laws or local bylaws, but
here is the
> >federal picture: The EPA requires registation of all fuel
producers for
> >non-standard fuels, that is including biodiesel. They also
require testing of
> >these fuels. They claim that even though federal funds were
used to test the
> >only sample that has been processed to date, they will not
allow this public
> >domain information to be used unless the user buys the rights
from a company
> >set up by Archer-Daniels-Midland Co. This company (the NBB) is
supposed to be
> >a non-profit, but they require usury fees for small producers,
such that it
> >will increase your costs by a dollar a gallon or so. The EPA
says they will
> >fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are
putting
> >biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or
bartering it.  The cost
> >of testing a single sample is expected to be about $1,000,000,
according to
> >the EPA. The EPA says there are no further grants available
for this testing
> >costs. The EPA doen't care about issues like quality, ASTM
testing, etc., but
> >wants to see the receipt for the purchase of the rights to use
the one
> >sample. The NBB requires thoussands of dollars in fees per
year, testing, and
> >a signed committment to pay $100,000 within 30 days as a cash
bond if you are
> >late with your quarterly fees or are planning to get out of
the business. The
> >bond will be returned by the year 2015, without interest, if
the NBB feels
> >they have recovered sufficient return on their (gr

Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Tom

>I don't know much about the state laws or local bylaws, but here is the
>federal picture: The EPA requires registation of all fuel producers for
>non-standard fuels, that is including biodiesel. They also require testing of
>these fuels. They claim that even though federal funds were used to test the
>only sample that has been processed to date, they will not allow this public
>domain information to be used unless the user buys the rights from a company
>set up by Archer-Daniels-Midland Co. This company (the NBB) is supposed to be
>a non-profit, but they require usury fees for small producers, such that it
>will increase your costs by a dollar a gallon or so. The EPA says they will
>fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are putting
>biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or bartering it.

Bartering it? They actually specify that?

>The cost
>of testing a single sample is expected to be about $1,000,000, according to
>the EPA. The EPA says there are no further grants available for this testing
>costs. The EPA doen't care about issues like quality, ASTM testing, etc., but
>wants to see the receipt for the purchase of the rights to use the one
>sample. The NBB requires thoussands of dollars in fees per year, testing, and
>a signed committment to pay $100,000 within 30 days as a cash bond if you are
>late with your quarterly fees or are planning to get out of the business. The
>bond will be returned by the year 2015, without interest, if the NBB feels
>they have recovered sufficient return on their (grant sponsored) investment.
>Otherwise, they keep some or all of the bond. In other words,
>Archer-Daniels-Midland has this entire area sewed up and small producers
>should not apply. The EPA official says that I should never have started
>making biodiesel in the first place, and am subject to retroactive fines back
>to the day I first started paying the road tax.
>
>If you want to find out what to do about this, write back.

Well, why don't you tell us? I'm sure all US list members want to 
know, and probably most others are very interested.

Best

Keith Addison

>Tom Leue
>Homestead Inc.
>Yellow Biodiesel


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Legal Obstacles for Biodiesel

[Tilapia]

I don't know much about the state laws or local bylaws, but here is the 
federal picture: The EPA requires registation of all fuel producers for 
non-standard fuels, that is including biodiesel. They also require testing of 
these fuels. They claim that even though federal funds were used to test the 
only sample that has been processed to date, they will not allow this public 
domain information to be used unless the user buys the rights from a company 
set up by Archer-Daniels-Midland Co. This company (the NBB) is supposed to be 
a non-profit, but they require usury fees for small producers, such that it 
will increase your costs by a dollar a gallon or so. The EPA says they will 
fine small producers up to $25,000 a day if they find your are putting 
biodiesel fuel into "commerce", meaning selling it or bartering it.  The cost 
of testing a single sample is expected to be about $1,000,000, according to 
the EPA. The EPA says there are no further grants available for this testing 
costs. The EPA doen't care about issues like quality, ASTM testing, etc., but 
wants to see the receipt for the purchase of the rights to use the one 
sample. The NBB requires thoussands of dollars in fees per year, testing, and 
a signed committment to pay $100,000 within 30 days as a cash bond if you are 
late with your quarterly fees or are planning to get out of the business. The 
bond will be returned by the year 2015, without interest, if the NBB feels 
they have recovered sufficient return on their (grant sponsored) investment. 
Otherwise, they keep some or all of the bond. In other words, 
Archer-Daniels-Midland has this entire area sewed up and small producers 
should not apply. The EPA official says that I should never have started 
making biodiesel in the first place, and am subject to retroactive fines back 
to the day I first started paying the road tax.

If you want to find out what to do about this, write back.

Tom Leue
Homestead Inc.
Yellow Biodiesel

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http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuel at WebConX
http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
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