[svg-developers] Betting on SVG?
I'm in the very early stages of developing an interactive graphical web app, and I'm playing around with SVG as a possible platform. I've no previous experience with SVG - hell, I'd never heard of it until a couple of weeks ago - though I have done a little JavaScript. The app will be pretty simple - a glass-tile mosaic designer / editor to run on a web page, to allow the user to design a mosaic from a palette, send us the design for manufacture, and (on the web-site but outside SVG) pay for it. The app would run pretty seemlessly right in the browser, as far as I can see - great for keeping the customer satisfied. But there are a few niggles I'd like to figure out before I commit: Saving and transmitting a file. I may be talking about big files here - anything up to a few hundred thousand tiles / elements. I'm working in IE6 with Adobe SVG, and the only method I can discover of saving a file after an editing session, so that changes are preserved, is the cumbersome "Copy_SVG" command followed by a paste to a Windows document (big Notepad-choking files, remember). I've roughed out a VBA macro in Word which takes care of it, but it's still not anything I'd care to put in front of a non-technical customer. There also seems to be a related difficulty in referencing external files (I'd like to have a user-selectable range of palettes, stored outside the main application, so I could maintain them as needed, with different ranges and brands of tiles). The "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: Betting on SVG?
Hi, SVG is being actively developed in the following browsers: * Opera (currently the most active browser regarding SVG) * Mozilla Firefox (big improvements pending for version 3) * Safari (upcoming Safari will also support SVG natively) And there is also Batik (which can be used as a Java Applet). The only real problem is the lack of native SVG support in Internet Explorer. Yes, the Adobe plugin is still around, but it is not actively developed, no support and probably won't work in upcoming versions of operating systems. There have been rumors that Microsoft will support SVG in an upcoming IE version, but nothing concrete yet. There is Renesis as a replacement, but its young and not yet as mature as the Adobe viewer is today. But when it is mature, it will be better (faster). To your other questions: * filesize/number of elements: a few hundred thousand elements is clearly beyond the scope of SVG. In my experience SVG works fine for a few thousand elements, maybe up to 50.000 (if they are simple), but not yet beyond. The question is: do you really need that many elements? Can't you optimize? Level of detail concepts/merging elements into fewer path elements, etc. * uploading files: you can serialize an XML node and send it to the server using either postURL or XMLHttpRequest * getting external references: you can access external chunks of SVG with getURL/XMLHttpRequest as long as viewers don't properly support external references Here is some code that might help you: * http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/network_requests/index.shtml - a wrapper function around getURL/postURL/XMLHttpRequest * http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/resources/helper_functions.js - see function "SeralizeNode" for serializing an XML/SVG structure to a string for sending it to the server So in summary: besides the two problems 1: lack of SVG support in IE, and 2: size limitations, I think SVG would be a good technology for your problem. But, at least point 2 would apply to other web technologies (Flash/ Java/Ajax) as well, maybe at different thresholds. The web is not a good technology to work on huge datasets. Hope this helps, Andreas --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "thonbrocket" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm in the very early stages of developing an interactive graphical > web app, and I'm playing around with SVG as a possible platform. I've > no previous experience with SVG - hell, I'd never heard of it until a > couple of weeks ago - though I have done a little JavaScript. > > The app will be pretty simple - a glass-tile mosaic designer / editor > to run on a web page, to allow the user to design a mosaic from a > palette, send us the design for manufacture, and (on the web-site but > outside SVG) pay for it. > > The app would run pretty seemlessly right in the browser, as far as I > can see - great for keeping the customer satisfied. But there are a > few niggles I'd like to figure out before I commit: > > Saving and transmitting a file. I may be talking about big files > here - anything up to a few hundred thousand tiles / elements. I'm > working in IE6 with Adobe SVG, and the only method I can discover of > saving a file after an editing session, so that changes are > preserved, is the cumbersome "Copy_SVG" command followed by a paste > to a Windows document (big Notepad-choking files, remember). I've > roughed out a VBA macro in Word which takes care of it, but it's > still not anything I'd care to put in front of a non-technical > customer. > > There also seems to be a related difficulty in referencing external > files (I'd like to have a user-selectable range of palettes, stored > outside the main application, so I could maintain them as needed, > with different ranges and brands of tiles). The "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Betting on SVG?
SVG is a w3.org standard , just like XHTML,CSS, and much of the other technologies involved in the web experience. Browsers like Opera, FireFox and the like already support SVG natively to a great extent, while IE as always has to be dragged kicking ,and screaming towards standards compliance. I have frequently found myself shuttling material between the HTML document and the SVG document , so that I could avail myself of the more robust and reliable implementations for javascript, manipulating XML , accessing external resources and other areas of weakness in the cumulative SVG subset expressed in the overlap of what each implementation actually supports. In the end , I've found no "Dead ends" , but rather just a need to think creatively and to keep in mind that while the answers are always there , they are not always the obvious ones. Of course one would not want to save a few hundred thousand tiles "ALL AT ONCE", but rather incremental editing would seem to be more the idea. Lets say I had an intricate tile mosaic that I wanted to edit. I would probably use a traditional image built from the SVG to act as a big map of the tiles and then when a user selected a region/tile pop up the SVG editor in that location to edit the tile. In this fashion I'm not having to wield a 100,000 tile SVG file , but just the tile I'm editing. When I save the tile the big bitmap image gets updated. (There are pre-existing libraries for rendering SVG as a bitmap) One should keep in mind that Adobe's .pdf file format was supposed to be the death of HTML, but even it now supports some SVG, so the chances are that while ASV will fade away the SVG support will simply migrate to other products like Adobe's Flash. Anyway , my programming customers await , but I could not resist taking a minute to comment --Doc --Programming for the internet since 1994 thonbrocket wrote: > Saving and transmitting a file. I may be talking about big files > here - anything up to a few hundred thousand tiles / elements. I'm > working in IE6 with Adobe SVG, and the only method I can discover of > saving a file after an editing session, so that changes are > preserved, is the cumbersome "Copy_SVG" command followed by a paste > to a Windows document (big Notepad-choking files, remember). I've > roughed out a VBA macro in Word which takes care of it, but it's > still not anything I'd care to put in front of a non-technical > customer. > > There also seems to be a related difficulty in referencing external > files (I'd like to have a user-selectable range of palettes, stored > outside the main application, so I could maintain them as needed, > with different ranges and brands of tiles). The "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] SVG/VML graphics with the dojo toolkit: Real world example
There seems to be a great solution for simple vector graphics that can be seen in any browser without a plugin: It's the JavaScript library dojo (http://www.dojotoolkit.org/) which has the ability to render vector graphics in either SVG (Firefox, Opera, Webkit) or VML (InternetExplorer). You might want to look at a draft of the syntax they use, it is very similar to SVG: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=d764479_1hnb2tn and check out some demos: http://www.dojotoolkit.org/demos In an attempt to try this out we built an interactive population pyramid which you can see here: http://www.destatis.de/laenderpyramiden/index.html Sorry, this in in german only but you'll get the idea. Performance in IE is poor but it works without any plugin and even prints as vectors (IE and Webkit only). While this may be a bad idea for the SVG purist, there are chances for real world apps. What do you think? Michael - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] SVG/VML graphics with the dojo toolkit: Real world example
All this talk of SVG in the browser is fine and dandy, but what about SVG in SDL, for example? Anyone using cairographics with the librsvg layer? How about getting some hot C code love in the SVG world .. ? -- ; Jay Vaughan - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] guidance/suggestion needed
if i were to make a road network/map editor, what are the stuff that are needed by the user? do i have to have a table for the roads and structures? does anyone know an online example of a road network editor? or even a screenshot of one? thanks - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] guidance/suggestion needed
On Tue, 22 May 2007 21:01:06 +0200, shydisturbedboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > if i were to make a road network/map editor, what are the stuff that > are needed by the user? do i have to have a table for the roads and > structures? does anyone know an online example of a road network > editor? or even a screenshot of one? thanks There is a list called geowanking where a lot of people play with geographic information - and a lot of them are SVG-savvy too. You might also want to look there. It isn't that there are particular things people NEED that I know of - more that there are varius ways of getting the information, although most people's preference for presentation is either a map, or some tables that you can query. For instance, 123 foo street is between what intersections? What streets are at the ends of bar st. What other streets does it cross (in order)? -- Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Catch up: Speed Dial http://opera.com - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: SVG/VML graphics with the dojo toolkit: Real world example
--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "meikelneu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > There seems to be a great solution for simple vector graphics that can > be seen in any browser without a plugin: It's the JavaScript library > dojo (http://www.dojotoolkit.org/) which has the ability to render > vector graphics in either SVG (Firefox, Opera, Webkit) or VML > (InternetExplorer). > While this may be a bad idea for the SVG purist, there are chances for > real world apps. What do you think? Absolutely. I've designed a feature of our commercial network management service, Masergy Network Analyst 2.0, using dojo.gfx, and we're very happy with the results. While the product itself is available only to customers, I've posted some screenshots at: http://www.flickr.com/gp/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/fG8zN3 While we've used SVG internally for a number of years for our own traffic engineering applications, we could never push a solution to our customers that required a plugin, applet, etc. When dojo.gfx reached maturity (recent builds include text handling), we decided to give it a go, and it's been great. I miss being able to pass declarative SVG document fragments and just load those into the DOM, as we now have to use dojo's client-side API to modify the canvas, but it's pratically miraculous how much functionality works on both IE and Firefox, plus Opera and Webkit builds. Both firefox and IE have some marginal performance for large DOM trees of SVG documents, but it's manageable. What I've done with dojo.gfx is to wrap the presentation and data binding logic into our own javascript objects representing logical visual elements. Firefox and IE respect a large amount of similar CSS for both SVG and HTML, so styling can be done with external stylesheets. As I say, we (and our customers) are very happy with the results. Thanks, --- Kirby Files Software Architect Masergy Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: guidance/suggestion needed
thank you sir! that is a great place for a noob like me.. - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: SVG/VML graphics with the dojo toolkit: Real world example
Hi Michael, > In an attempt to try this out we built an interactive population > pyramid which you can see here: > http://www.destatis.de/laenderpyramiden/index.html > Sorry, this in in german only but you'll get the idea. > > Performance in IE is poor but it works without any plugin and even > prints as vectors (IE and Webkit only). > > While this may be a bad idea for the SVG purist, there are chances for > real world apps. What do you think? >From a pragmatic point of view, absolutely. Especially for applications that need to work NOW and not in some distant future where IE decides to implement SVG as well ... But I still see things like dojo (and others) as an intermediate solution until IE implements SVG ... I still have hope ... The problem with all the Ajax toolkits is that they aren't designed to be compatible with each other and you are basically trapped in one solution. But thats with a lot of other technologies as well. A lot of real world applications already use that approach, like Google Maps, Microsoft Maps (forgot what that product was called), the Google Office suite (esp. the presentations and charting module). So, such an approach really works today. Andreas - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
