[svg-developers] Re: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia)
Garry Haywood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] XML is better because because it makes for interoperability, and in the new business world metricification neccesitates interoperability. And because XML has validation, it scores highly for interoperability. The problem is your argument is for backend interopabilty, here XML scores highly, where it scores very badly is in user-centric content - stuff authored / consumed by users rather than machines, that is where XML falls down so badly - we have much less interopability in the XML web today, than we do in the HTML web. The XML RSS feeds are broken all over the place, the HTML world, well just about anything can render that. There's no obvious reason why the rendering needs to be shipped around as XML. Jim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Most low income households are not online. Help bridge the digital divide today! http://us.click.yahoo.com/I258zB/QnQLAA/TtwFAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia)
Garry Haywood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was talking about why is XML is better for SVG than any other mark- up, yet your arguments focuses purely on non-human advantages, disregarding the human aspects which make XML a poor choice for SVG. the biggest is the must fail and not show anything under pretty much any error, this is great for machines, it's useless for humans, humans value content over accuracy, an error occured parsing document X is bad for a user, they get no value. If however they got the drawing but it was a bit wrong, they'd know it was wrong, but it might only be wrong in a way that didn't effect their access to the content. particuarly if SVG is to grow into a mature rendering mark-up that is part of a component based semantic web that replaces HTML, eventually, because HTML needs to be more than just a rendering mark- up. No, HTML does not need to be more than rendering, this is the exact mistake of pushing the meaning into the rendering, confusing the 2 does nothing to help. Indeed it's not clear that XML has much traction in the semantic web developments currently existing, the microformats are all in HTML, and RDF has many serialisations only 1 of which is XML then SVG, as a mature UI rendering system should be too. That's not obvious, you're not going to say it's obvious that video or images are in XML, so why is it obvious that SVG is, or why the path syntax is a format rather than XML? It is, in economic terms and within a broad statistical framework, efficient for SVG to be in XML, as the common rendering markup of the semantic web. I can't see that being so obvious, an XML format for video is not efficient, and the overhead of a seperate parser is certainly not going to enough to make it so, it is not obvious that it would be different for SVG. And that so much RSS is broken hardly matters - its mostly terminated anyway. It arrives at the final consumer and if it's broken but consumable who cares? Not the consumer. They most certainly do care, if the rules of XML are adhered to over failure then the user doesn't get their content. If however the rules of XML are relaxed and errors are recovered, then we lose the benefits of XML in non-user centric languages. However if your repackaging data for forward use - like Reuters RSS feeds for example There are lots of people repackaging invalid RSS feeds, they're mostly ignoring the validity constraints of XML, I think this is a bad thing, XML has too many uses to be sullied in this way, but it will happen to all user-centric XML languages, as users care more about content than anything else. There's not an obvious alternative to XML for SVG, but the rules of XML are too strict for SVG. Jim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Most low income households are not online. Help bridge the digital divide today! http://us.click.yahoo.com/I258zB/QnQLAA/TtwFAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia)
ayrton_senna_lives_ok [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Leonard Rosenthol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 6. It is relaxing for humans to write. So orderly. 7. It is easy for humans to edit. So free of overheads. The majority of XML on the internet is neither well-formed or valid, I can't see how the easy to author or produce is a good argument, because all evidence is that people do an absolutely lousy job of authoring it. Jim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2jUsvC/tzNLAA/TtwFAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia)
On Friday, December 9, 2005, 7:32:48 PM, Jim wrote: JL ayrton_senna_lives_ok [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message JL news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Leonard Rosenthol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 6. It is relaxing for humans to write. So orderly. 7. It is easy for humans to edit. So free of overheads. JL The majority of XML on the internet is neither well-formed or valid, I can't JL see how the easy to author or produce is a good argument, because all JL evidence is that people do an absolutely lousy job of authoring it. If its not well formed it isn't XML. I agree that the majority of stuff that looks lie XML on the Web is not well formed - its HTML, mostly, or 'save as web' html-like wordprocessor excretions. If its not valid, though, well, valid to what? As Michael Sperberg-McQueen said at his talk at XML 2005 this year, being valid is not like being married. censeo DTDem esse delendam -- Chris Lilleymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Chair, W3C SVG Working Group W3C Graphics Activity Lead Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG with apologies to Cato Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- 1.2 million kids a year are victims of human trafficking. Stop slavery. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.QUssC/izNLAA/TtwFAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia)
Hi Leonard, Why is being in XML better? Perhaps because of Sax, Xerces, Xalan, JDom, SOAP, MSXML, XSLT, XPath or perhaps simply because I can read the file and grab what I want/need? I am myself wondering whether it makes that much difference how something becomes a standard w3c, ANSI, ISO, or common use, just as long as I can read it, process it, and hand it down stream. XML helps in the reading/processing and open standards help in the passing downstream. So Firefox and Opera adopting svg is great for passing vectors along as is the IE ASV. Xaml, Metro will be xml so I can probably read and process but only pass downstream to part of the MS world that upgrades, but as XML it can at least be XSLTd to the other part of the world. .pdf .shp .swf .dxf are published formats but hard to read/process though easy enough to hand downstream since they are common usage standards. I imagine developers like the fact that XML makes reading/processing easier. Thanks randy -Original Message- From: Leonard Rosenthol [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:27 PM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia) [The following statement is somewhat heretical on this mailing list, but that's never stopped me before ;)] Adobe hires smart people, they know that MS Xaml/Metro is their immediate threat, but I'm sure they are also wondering how to reconcile flash/pdf with svg/fo. In the end they have to know XML wins, so there is little incentive to abandon svg, though they may be tempted to adapt it ala Xaml. Any which way XML makes it an open world from a developer's point of view. Why does a file format/specification simply being based on XML make it better than one that isn't? Let's take Metro and PDF, for example - since you mentioned both above. Metro/XPS is a published (open?) specification from Microsoft that just happens to be based on XML. However, it is controlled by MSFT, though they have SUGGESTED publication by OASIS - which is different than acceptance via a standards-body process. PDF is a published (open?) specification originally from Adobe that is not based on XML. However, PDF has been adopted as the basis for a series of standards from the International Standards Organization (ISO) including ISO 15930, PDF/X and ISO 19005, PDF/A. That makes it TOTALLY OPEN and INTERNATIONALLY approved. What more do you want? Leonard Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Most low income households are not online. Help bridge the digital divide today! http://us.click.yahoo.com/I258zB/QnQLAA/TtwFAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [svg-developers] Re: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia)
Perhaps because of Sax, Xerces, Xalan, JDom, SOAP, MSXML, XSLT, XPath or perhaps simply because I can read the file and grab what I want/need? More specifically, because you can use the tools you ALREADY KNOW... There are similar tools for many of those things for other formats - you just don't know about them ;). I am myself wondering whether it makes that much difference how something becomes a standard w3c, ANSI, ISO, or common use, just as long as I can read it, process it, and hand it down stream. Agreed. XML helps in the reading/processing and open standards help in the passing downstream. Yes and no. I've seen XML grammars that are more complicated than the alternative, thus making it harder to read/process... .pdf .shp .swf .dxf are published formats but hard to read/process For whom? Using what tools? Leonard Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Most low income households are not online. Help bridge the digital divide today! http://us.click.yahoo.com/I258zB/QnQLAA/TtwFAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia)
On Thursday 08 December 2005 23:17, Leonard Rosenthol wrote: Perhaps because of Sax, Xerces, Xalan, JDom, SOAP, MSXML, XSLT, XPath or perhaps simply because I can read the file and grab what I want/need? More specifically, because you can use the tools you ALREADY KNOW... There are similar tools for many of those things for other formats - you just don't know about them ;). Partially true. And because you know others can use tools they know for your data without needing you to define the API to them in painful detail. I am myself wondering whether it makes that much difference how something becomes a standard w3c, ANSI, ISO, or common use, just as long as I can read it, process it, and hand it down stream. Agreed. agreed. The organisations are really not much more than self-interest groups... XML helps in the reading/processing and open standards help in the passing downstream. Yes and no. I've seen XML grammars that are more complicated than the alternative, thus making it harder to read/process... yes, but their parsing is universally accepted. If you use a compliant XML generator, another compliant XML parser will work with it. This says nothing about the business layer being able to work with your data, but at least you've taken the problem back up to the business layer from the transport layer. .pdf .shp .swf .dxf are published formats but hard to read/process For whom? Using what tools? that's exactly the point. There are a limited toolsets in a limited number of languages that handle the above. But with xml, there are a huge number of APIs in every major language. So we no longer need to worry about the markup itself, and only need to worry about the interpretation of the markup. Remember the bad old days of csv? When a csv file from a germanic country failed to parse in a program in an anglo country because the anglos separate with a comma and the germanics separate with semicolon? Every time you needed to pass csv between 2 applications, you had to worry about whether the programmers had packaged the data intelligently, and in a world-aware way. With XML, the standard handles this elegantly. This alone makes the poison of XML's verbosity and markup that much more palatable. Ronan -- Ronan Oger Director RO IT Systems GmbH ...Building Web2.0 with SVG since 2001 http://www.roitsystems.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- 1.2 million kids a year are victims of human trafficking. Stop slavery. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.QUssC/izNLAA/TtwFAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
