Re: [svg-developers] Re: external rcc in Adobe Viewer 6?
dellscreek wrote: But who says UI's can't be made WITH a graphics language? Give me a break. :-) Who says a car can't be built WITH a hand tool box? But would you? will you? A few thoughts on this: http://metaphoricalweb.blogspot.com/2004/09/how-widgety-should-svg-get.html -- Kurt Cagle Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: external rcc in Adobe Viewer 6?
What's a web widget? Good question. My view is that it is an object that: 1. has a predefined default look and behavior 2. can respond to user events from any widget on the web page, if necessary 3. is modular 4. and can use svg to give it some pizz. Examples are header, footer, columns, menu, buttons, text containers, forms, various parts of a shopping cart, tabbed folder Almost anything that you see on a webpage can be made and packaged as a widget. I plan to design a one-page website using these widgets (in effect, a web application like Mozilla's XUL). There is no reason to link to other pages within a site when you can just hide widgets and show widgets for each page. Fade-outs and fade-ins, etc., could be used as visual clues. Need to keep track of state rather than changing pages. Can use JSRS to communicate with the server and database. I believe that as broadband use increases web users will demand that a site provide more than just info.; I think that effective, interactive visual content will also become more and more important. dave --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jim Ley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: orchidsonline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I am just getting into SVG and XML from a DHTML-PHP-MYSQL mentality and am excited about the creative possibilities. But is SVG ready to be used as a replacement for DHTML yet? No, SVG is not at all an appropriate replacement for DHTML, DHTML is the dominant technology and much more appropriate than SVG for almost everything - of course there's lots of things DHTML can't do, and this is where you should be looking at SVG - mapping and charts are the obvious choices. 2. Any thoughts/suggests concerning coding web widgets using SVG? What's a web widget? Jim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: external rcc in Adobe Viewer 6?
Dave, Wow, you just got the entire idea behind how I intend to make multi- form applications using SPARK. That is exactly the way that I intend to do things. Basically you author your entire application (a web page may be considered an application) in one SVG document and you hide/show each view (window/form/frame/etc) as you go through the application. Hide/show operations are performed by simply changing the class attribute to use a predefined CSS class called hide which has display:none (or could be opacity:0). This is all very quick and will also speed up rendering because the scripting doesn't really slow down if there aren't many objects on the screen that are visible. One thing for you to keep in mind when you do this is memory constraints and trying to avoid having too many script objects loaded at one time. A way to solve this problem is to dynamically load/unload portions of your application as they become necessary. I did an example of this a while ago using a very old version of my widgets. The example can be found at: http://www.schemasoft.org/resources/samples/afettes/demo0/simpleExampl e.svg Note that the Parent Window is static when the page is first loaded. When you click the Enable/Show Window 2 button the Parent Window becomes active as it's window controller is loaded and the window becomes dynamic. Jim, My idea of a web widget is basically any form of interactive GUI component. The interaction does not necessarily have to be user initiated as it could simply be say a status window. As for using DHTML over SVG I can't say I agree. The differences between a 100% script based SVG app and a DHTML app don't seem to be too much but if you reduce the amount of script used (say for svg creation) and increase the amount of declarative SVG all of a sudden SVG apps become very powerful. The problem with using DHTML as a user interface technology is that it has very specific layout rules and getting around them is a pain in the butt. SVG doesn't have any of these layout problems (though it has it's own layout deficencies such as no text flow, can you tell I'm looking forward to SVG 1.2?) so therefore it gives the programmer the ability to think outside of the box (or in DHTML's case the table/!). Anyways, just my thoughts on the matter. Cheers, Alastair --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], orchidsonline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's a web widget? Good question. My view is that it is an object that: 1. has a predefined default look and behavior 2. can respond to user events from any widget on the web page, if necessary 3. is modular 4. and can use svg to give it some pizz. Examples are header, footer, columns, menu, buttons, text containers, forms, various parts of a shopping cart, tabbed folder Almost anything that you see on a webpage can be made and packaged as a widget. I plan to design a one-page website using these widgets (in effect, a web application like Mozilla's XUL). There is no reason to link to other pages within a site when you can just hide widgets and show widgets for each page. Fade-outs and fade-ins, etc., could be used as visual clues. Need to keep track of state rather than changing pages. Can use JSRS to communicate with the server and database. I believe that as broadband use increases web users will demand that a site provide more than just info.; I think that effective, interactive visual content will also become more and more important. dave --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jim Ley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: orchidsonline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I am just getting into SVG and XML from a DHTML-PHP-MYSQL mentality and am excited about the creative possibilities. But is SVG ready to be used as a replacement for DHTML yet? No, SVG is not at all an appropriate replacement for DHTML, DHTML is the dominant technology and much more appropriate than SVG for almost everything - of course there's lots of things DHTML can't do, and this is where you should be looking at SVG - mapping and charts are the obvious choices. 2. Any thoughts/suggests concerning coding web widgets using SVG? What's a web widget? Jim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is
Re: [svg-developers] Re: external rcc in Adobe Viewer 6?
Alastair, your comment: Basically you author your entire application in one SVG document and you hide/show each view has fairly serious accessibility issues related to it, how does one bookmark or define a state? if for instance one wishes to post a link of the state to a colleague, or on a different site. thanks ~: Jonathan Chetwynd http://www.peepo.co.uk It's easy to use irc://freenode/accessibility On 24 Sep 2004, at 17:53, Alastair Fettes wrote: Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: external rcc in Adobe Viewer 6?
A very candid comment. For so many years, other parts of Web tech like Flash, DHTML etc has evolved into popular supports, SVG support is still in Stone Age, or should I say Iron Age? That is really ironic. The spec is growing fatty and fatty, which means fewer tech company would be able to come up with a full support (well, I mean at least one). And what is story of the Spec 1.2 and ASV 6? Forever? Does it mean the spec 1.2 is waiting for ASV to give prototype and ASV 6 is waiting for the spec? :-) It seems like the spec is really aimed at users. I mean it will be easier for end users to type in the graphics than using a graphic software, as it seems not meant to be software-developer friendly. -- http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/japan.html --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jim Ley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: orchidsonline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I am just getting into SVG and XML from a DHTML-PHP-MYSQL mentality and am excited about the creative possibilities. But is SVG ready to be used as a replacement for DHTML yet? No, SVG is not at all an appropriate replacement for DHTML, DHTML is the dominant technology and much more appropriate than SVG for almost everything - of course there's lots of things DHTML can't do, and this is where you should be looking at SVG - mapping and charts are the obvious choices. 2. Any thoughts/suggests concerning coding web widgets using SVG? What's a web widget? Jim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: external rcc in Adobe Viewer 6?
It is possible to save the application state because it is held by the current state of the SVG. Therefore simply serialize the SVG. How do you do this with DHTML? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alastair, your comment: Basically you author your entire application in one SVG document and you hide/show each view has fairly serious accessibility issues related to it, how does one bookmark or define a state? if for instance one wishes to post a link of the state to a colleague, or on a different site. thanks ~: Jonathan Chetwynd http://www.peepo.co.uk It's easy to use irc://freenode/accessibility On 24 Sep 2004, at 17:53, Alastair Fettes wrote: Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: external rcc in Adobe Viewer 6?
I've been thinking that the key to this is to get any page up and running in its simplest state and then layer in the goodies like filters, gradients, shapes, animations, etc. That way the user can see what's there before getting impatient and leaving. This could get messy because you would have to keep track of each widget's visual state so if the user went on to another page, you could continue to complete the layering after the widgets are displayed/hidden as needed. It would also be great to be able to preload the most likely widgets the user will use next after the page is fully loaded so they could be visually finalized before displaying them. Memory usage will probally approach that of an normal application: just need to find creative ways of loading the widgets a little at a time. Something ought to be on the user's screen within the first few seconds of linking to the page. Couldn't get your old example to load. These messages are really helping me to clarify this concept. Thanks for your input. dave --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alastair Fettes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave, Wow, you just got the entire idea behind how I intend to make multi- form applications using SPARK. That is exactly the way that I intend to do things. Basically you author your entire application (a web page may be considered an application) in one SVG document and you hide/show each view (window/form/frame/etc) as you go through the application. Hide/show operations are performed by simply changing the class attribute to use a predefined CSS class called hide which has display:none (or could be opacity:0). This is all very quick and will also speed up rendering because the scripting doesn't really slow down if there aren't many objects on the screen that are visible. One thing for you to keep in mind when you do this is memory constraints and trying to avoid having too many script objects loaded at one time. A way to solve this problem is to dynamically load/unload portions of your application as they become necessary. I did an example of this a while ago using a very old version of my widgets. The example can be found at: http://www.schemasoft.org/resources/samples/afettes/demo0/simpleExampl e.svg Note that the Parent Window is static when the page is first loaded. When you click the Enable/Show Window 2 button the Parent Window becomes active as it's window controller is loaded and the window becomes dynamic. Jim, My idea of a web widget is basically any form of interactive GUI component. The interaction does not necessarily have to be user initiated as it could simply be say a status window. As for using DHTML over SVG I can't say I agree. The differences between a 100% script based SVG app and a DHTML app don't seem to be too much but if you reduce the amount of script used (say for svg creation) and increase the amount of declarative SVG all of a sudden SVG apps become very powerful. The problem with using DHTML as a user interface technology is that it has very specific layout rules and getting around them is a pain in the butt. SVG doesn't have any of these layout problems (though it has it's own layout deficencies such as no text flow, can you tell I'm looking forward to SVG 1.2?) so therefore it gives the programmer the ability to think outside of the box (or in DHTML's case the table/!). Anyways, just my thoughts on the matter. Cheers, Alastair --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], orchidsonline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's a web widget? Good question. My view is that it is an object that: 1. has a predefined default look and behavior 2. can respond to user events from any widget on the web page, if necessary 3. is modular 4. and can use svg to give it some pizz. Examples are header, footer, columns, menu, buttons, text containers, forms, various parts of a shopping cart, tabbed folder Almost anything that you see on a webpage can be made and packaged as a widget. I plan to design a one-page website using these widgets (in effect, a web application like Mozilla's XUL). There is no reason to link to other pages within a site when you can just hide widgets and show widgets for each page. Fade-outs and fade-ins, etc., could be used as visual clues. Need to keep track of state rather than changing pages. Can use JSRS to communicate with the server and database. I believe that as broadband use increases web users will demand that a site provide more than just info.; I think that effective, interactive visual content will also become more and more important. dave --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jim Ley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: orchidsonline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I am just getting into SVG and XML from a DHTML-PHP-MYSQL
[svg-developers] Re: external rcc in Adobe Viewer 6?
Thanks. What's replacing this library concept in svg1.2? dave --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], André M. Winter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you could check http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/webmapping/files/thematicMap/ for a working example. but RCC is outdated by SVG1.2. andré -- ___ andre m. winter, http://www.carto.net/ http://www.vectoreal.com/ http://tirolatlas.uibk.ac.at/ orchidsonline wrote: Does anyone have an external RCC file working in Adobe Viewer 6? I cannot seem to get it working. Using the example from http://www- 106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-svgxf2/ I am making a call to a svg library file in the same directory using: extensionDefs xlink:href=SimpleRCCButtonLib.svg#Buttons/ This file starts with: ?xml version=1.0? svg xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2000/svg; xmlns:xlink=http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink; xmlns:ev=http://www.w3.org/2001/xml-events; extensionDefs id=Buttons namespace=http://xmlns.fuchsia- design.com/ui/ elementDef name=button prototype svg id=root width=0 height=26 rectid=rect style=stroke: black; fill: lightgray; x=.5 y=.5 rx=5 ry=5 width=0 height=25 / text x=50% y=65% style=pointer-events: none; text-anchor: middle;refContent //text /svg /prototype .. What am I overlooking? Dave - To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: external rcc in Adobe Viewer 6?
Hi Dave, I've had one or two thoughts on the matter as have a number of other people concerning SVG based UI widgets. A short list of tech's are as follows: 1. SPARK - http://www.schemasoft.org (#1 because I did it, lol) 2. CGUI - http://homepage.usask.ca/~ctl271/cgui/ 3. Kevin Lindsey - http://www.kevlindev.com/gui/index.htm These are all non-RCC/XUL/sXBL solutions. Straight SVG+ECMAScript. Technically they *should* run in any browser. I know that SPARK has some problems in the new native mozilla svg renderer it seems (not quite sure but I'm looking into it). Christopher Lewis would be better to answer for CGUI. Kevin Lindsey - I don't think his GUI website has been updated for a while now. Maybe he's been busy with Sharp Vector Graphics? Anwyays, I hope those links will get you started. Cheers, Alastair http://www.schemasoft.org PS. 2. Any thoughts/suggests concerning coding web widgets using SVG? http://www.svgopen.org/2004/papers/SPARK/ I could always use some help! :) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], orchidsonline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the info. After researching SVG and all the X...s from w3, etc... 1. I would love to develop web widgets using SVG and XUL but then I am limited only to Mozilla 1.8. Also, it is unlikely that anyone will extract the stuff needed to make a SVG-XUL plugin for IE. 2. SVG and sXBL looks like it may be a good combo but no browser supports that possibility yet or is likely to in the near future. 3. If I go the IE+Adobe Viewer route, then I can't use either XUL or sXBL or RCC(which is dead anyway) with the SVG. Most of the Flash plugins are very restrictive in what they can do. I am just getting into SVG and XML from a DHTML-PHP-MYSQL mentality and am excited about the creative possibilities. But is SVG ready to be used as a replacement for DHTML yet? So 1. Are any of the above conclusions way off base? 2. Any thoughts/suggests concerning coding web widgets using SVG? dave --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Heiko Niemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.w3.org/TR/sXBL/ Regards- -Heiko --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], orchidsonline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks. What's replacing this library concept in svg1.2? dave Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: external rcc in Adobe Viewer 6?
Seems like SPARK and/or CGUI are the only logical options. I'll start digging into them tomorrow. Thanks to all for your help. dave --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alastair Fettes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Dave, I've had one or two thoughts on the matter as have a number of other people concerning SVG based UI widgets. A short list of tech's are as follows: 1. SPARK - http://www.schemasoft.org (#1 because I did it, lol) 2. CGUI - http://homepage.usask.ca/~ctl271/cgui/ 3. Kevin Lindsey - http://www.kevlindev.com/gui/index.htm These are all non-RCC/XUL/sXBL solutions. Straight SVG+ECMAScript. Technically they *should* run in any browser. I know that SPARK has some problems in the new native mozilla svg renderer it seems (not quite sure but I'm looking into it). Christopher Lewis would be better to answer for CGUI. Kevin Lindsey - I don't think his GUI website has been updated for a while now. Maybe he's been busy with Sharp Vector Graphics? Anwyays, I hope those links will get you started. Cheers, Alastair http://www.schemasoft.org PS. 2. Any thoughts/suggests concerning coding web widgets using SVG? http://www.svgopen.org/2004/papers/SPARK/ I could always use some help! :) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], orchidsonline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the info. After researching SVG and all the X...s from w3, etc... 1. I would love to develop web widgets using SVG and XUL but then I am limited only to Mozilla 1.8. Also, it is unlikely that anyone will extract the stuff needed to make a SVG-XUL plugin for IE. 2. SVG and sXBL looks like it may be a good combo but no browser supports that possibility yet or is likely to in the near future. 3. If I go the IE+Adobe Viewer route, then I can't use either XUL or sXBL or RCC(which is dead anyway) with the SVG. Most of the Flash plugins are very restrictive in what they can do. I am just getting into SVG and XML from a DHTML-PHP-MYSQL mentality and am excited about the creative possibilities. But is SVG ready to be used as a replacement for DHTML yet? So 1. Are any of the above conclusions way off base? 2. Any thoughts/suggests concerning coding web widgets using SVG? dave --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Heiko Niemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.w3.org/TR/sXBL/ Regards- -Heiko --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], orchidsonline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks. What's replacing this library concept in svg1.2? dave Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
