[svg-developers] Re: svg mountainbike simulation, comments requested
Hannes, sincerely thank you very much for answering in spite of the panic that's taken place here. Being away on business I missed the entire buzz. My first reaction was to keep it with Francis and steer clear of the soi-disant svg- developers owners and group moderators. Yet the caused confusion yielded in some valuable contributions (in my opinion). Thanks Doug for clarification that sometimes one may feel offended when no offense was intended. Sincerely Hannes, I did not have the smallest intention to bash your work! I just realized the vast amount of work you've put into your simulation, it did hurt me to have to stand by and see it happening, or rather it was like an instant recall of a familiar pain! Moreover, you didn't ask for comments off-list. Obviously some folks on this group want to ignore the fact that svg is hardly ever present on the web. Despite the fact that usable plugin(s) have been around for years now. One has to stay off this list if he takes the freedom of expression that bloating svg at a snail's pace wouldn't be ultima ratio in this situation? On the other hand, it is not clear how much svg takes place at intranet level? There's definitely some svg use at large scale company intranets. I've been caught up in a number of that kind. The big question is, if these projects would have any chance if they would be planned today? I do have my doubts. Today, you'll have a very hard time to get roll-out clearance for a plugin that bypasses maintenanced parsers, script interpreters and c-s communication... There are too many expensive kludges to get around the svg-dhtml dom isolation issues... And, finally, you might end up with server-side pdf generation for printouts calling the entire svg stuff into question. After all, servers load isn't that crucial at the intranet level. To get back to the simulation sample, I've been truly curious about some platform decision insights. Now, that svg tempts people into bottom-up design, actually implies the simplicity to knock a demo together using notepad. There's no question that real world projects will have top-down design and require roi tables. The bike simulation looked somewhat like a real world example. Also one may notice that a real web application would require a lot of extra plumbing taking care of different client browser/viewer implementations. Again, considering the enormous number of man-hours you've put into your project, I also think this svg-developers group is jointly responsible for a type of svg engineering that's not going to work for a svg-mass-phenomenon we all would desperately like to spread out to real world. Besides the academic world, one has to pay the prize for an (hand crafted) ajax (awkward named hype) application. For high responsive webapps with far reach and server load importance handcrafted ajax solutions are perfectly valid. For svg's spread in the first place it's not very helpful. If I remember rightly Corel's svg js-lib thing was a disaster. Whenever it suits you want applications to generate all this complex stuff against various profiles and implementations, right? IMHO, those who are willing to bring in more and more 'complexibility' into svg are inimical to svg's initial spread. I'm not sure who's the solid svg community that asked w3c to bloat svg forever. Pretty much impertinent to serve someone with a deportation if one doesn't agree in this matter. Ultimately, svg should convince the mass (hence it follows browser *vendors*) by it's characteristic features! There shouldn't be any need to mix up svg with browser preferences, open source zealots, or market monopoly hue and cry. Ok, I'll stop here. 'One shouldn't demand too much of the ordinary web user, but expect resistance if a web user feels helpless in the face of a web page.' Hannes, you've got me wrong here, wasn't against *your* application. It's a general skepticism that svg widgets replacing common controls and old familiar gui elements do suffer from major usability deficits. I want that eg. scrollbars or picklists *operate* and show up identical throughout the system. Well blow me, I guess it's definitely a must for the occasional app. I feel no desire to offend other people, but I have no compunction not to complain about the unfortunate w3c-adobe alliance concerning xml graphics. Together they just made sure that investing into svg is comparable to gambling. And yes, there's been no essential svg progress at adobe since M. Bierman left the building, nevertheless it took years of stagnation until others took the risk of implementing the complex spec. Even now there're still chances left that adobe might strike back given their influence and implementation lead concerning svg. I for one do not want encourage the use and development of svg to them again and again. That's all. Every single comment is welcome, off-list of course, due to the new policy;-) And, please
[svg-developers] Re: svg mountainbike simulation, comments requested
paul, you answered the wrong question! the right question would be: would you do in svg again, not why did you do in svg? sometimes, things start small, and keep growing ever after. while svg was perfectly suited in the beginning, your question might be justified by now. to be honest, sometime around january i was seriously considering porting everything to another platform, but for several very good reasons i choose not to, at least not now. i would like to know, where are those more productive platforms? should be viewable on the web, should'nt ask too much of the user when it comes to installing the plugin or runtime, finally, let me assure you, i will not leave people helpless in the face of a web page. my project does not force anybody to use a fancy svg navigation. it does not keep you from going anywhere because of being too complex. the complexity is contained in the subject itself and not in the implementation. my application gives experts (or to be experts) the opportunity to deal with their matters in a very straighforward way. people use my application because it gives them the complexity they want in a very simplistic way (as measured by comparable software) best regards, Hannes --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, welkerpaul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Hannes Fleischer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Hannes, up front, I feel sorry for you adding the following comment to your post. I got strong counters from Alastair concerning a similar topic, so please don't feel hold cheap if people's thoughts differ on the matter. Your svg bike simulation is a very impressive showcase for a svg expenditure. In fact, it's one of these hefty tome applications using the svg applet as a runtime engine. I'm eager to learn why you did choose svg for your bike simulation. On the one hand there're more productive application platforms to choose from, on the other hand taking the hassle of building a javascripted webapp from ground would take it for granted having reasonable reach for the app? I'm curious to know, most of the talk in this group is about scripting svg. I'm even more curios about svg's roadmap, so the following words are only indirectly related to your simulation: We know that browsers aren't built as a platform engine for webapplications. The w3c graphics group was/is about evolving a platform for helping out web developers with a platform for arbitrary (web-)apps? I mean arbitrary in a literal sense since svg will foster one missing almost any common sense, usability and design rules the web typifies to some degree these days? To put it in slightly exaggerated terms: Is a 'svg+javascript enabled web' the ultimate way to 'break the web' employing w3c web standards? No, this would be basically a distortion of facts, obviously talking a lot of nonsense. Anyway, it's adobe that bought in the flash-app svg aspects into w3c ($). The adobe svg viewer still rules svg today. But the viewer was built as adobes pendant to macromedias flash player. It's a damned runtime engine, greedy and slow, bears it own script realization and server communication, and hardly talks to it's surrounding dom implementation. And please, don't tell me they couldn't do any better. At least for the major browser it's straightforward and ordinary difficult to implement inline svg though binary behaviors. So please, someone tell me that svg was evolved to add better graphics to a web page rather than replacing the web page with a bulky proprietary application. Is svg going to end as the flash for students and the poor? Will we need a svg-spoofed-window popup blocker in future? One shouldn't demand too much of the ordinary web user, but expect resistance if a web user feels helpless in the face of a web page. On the contrary, svg needs to convince the public to call for svg enabled browsers!? curios cheers Paul - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: svg mountainbike simulation, comments requested
--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Hannes Fleischer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Hannes, up front, I feel sorry for you adding the following comment to your post. I got strong counters from Alastair concerning a similar topic, so please don't feel hold cheap if people's thoughts differ on the matter. Your svg bike simulation is a very impressive showcase for a svg expenditure. In fact, it's one of these hefty tome applications using the svg applet as a runtime engine. I'm eager to learn why you did choose svg for your bike simulation. On the one hand there're more productive application platforms to choose from, on the other hand taking the hassle of building a javascripted webapp from ground would take it for granted having reasonable reach for the app? I'm curious to know, most of the talk in this group is about scripting svg. I'm even more curios about svg's roadmap, so the following words are only indirectly related to your simulation: We know that browsers aren't built as a platform engine for webapplications. The w3c graphics group was/is about evolving a platform for helping out web developers with a platform for arbitrary (web-)apps? I mean arbitrary in a literal sense since svg will foster one missing almost any common sense, usability and design rules the web typifies to some degree these days? To put it in slightly exaggerated terms: Is a 'svg+javascript enabled web' the ultimate way to 'break the web' employing w3c web standards? No, this would be basically a distortion of facts, obviously talking a lot of nonsense. Anyway, it's adobe that bought in the flash-app svg aspects into w3c ($). The adobe svg viewer still rules svg today. But the viewer was built as adobes pendant to macromedias flash player. It's a damned runtime engine, greedy and slow, bears it own script realization and server communication, and hardly talks to it's surrounding dom implementation. And please, don't tell me they couldn't do any better. At least for the major browser it's straightforward and ordinary difficult to implement inline svg though binary behaviors. So please, someone tell me that svg was evolved to add better graphics to a web page rather than replacing the web page with a bulky proprietary application. Is svg going to end as the flash for students and the poor? Will we need a svg-spoofed-window popup blocker in future? One shouldn't demand too much of the ordinary web user, but expect resistance if a web user feels helpless in the face of a web page. On the contrary, svg needs to convince the public to call for svg enabled browsers!? curios cheers Paul - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: svg mountainbike simulation, comments requested
--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, welkerpaul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please, someone tell me that svg was evolved to add better graphics to a web page rather than replacing the web page with a bulky proprietary application. Hi Paul, SVG is suffering from two tenants: 1. Just Another Flash Player? 2. Not understanding that SVG is a data driven graphic platform. SVG may not have the wonderful animation capabilities that we have all come to love dearly in our Flash popups, but it can do some neat stuff if it is driven by data. A simple circle scooting across a web page that is indicating, in real time, the direction of a comet moving toward another bigger cirle, the earth?, may be interesting, don't you think, to the viewer? It's not the grahic WOW that svg is about; its about the graphic display of data changing in space and time. Regards, Francis - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: svg mountainbike simulation, comments requested
hi, SVG is suffering from two tenants: 1. Just Another Flash Player? Why? Only people that don't have a clue what SVG is are still trying to say its a pure competitor to Flash which is simply not true. Or would you say the same about XAML (for example)? But you're right that there're a lot of people out there still saying that. 2. Not understanding that SVG is a data driven graphic platform. Not only data driven, in the same way it could be a pure animated graphic platform or a platform for interactivity. SVG may not have the wonderful animation capabilities that we have all come to love dearly in our Flash popups, but it can do some neat stuff if it is driven by data. Why only with data? I talked to a lot of professional Flash guys and they loved the much simpler yet even powerful interpolated animation system of svg. There's nothing you can do in Flash that you can't do in svg regarding animations. It's not the grahic WOW that svg is about; its about the graphic display of data changing in space and time. Indeed it is among other things. Like the new cool vector effects in 1.2 or the standard filters in 1.1 (if working fast enough) which isn't possible in Flash until nowadays (yes in Flash 8 but hey, where is it?). Among the graphical capabilities, I think one of the major features of svg 1.2 will be sXBL as its the first time to have a standard for a real component based web system which is the absolute basic requirement for having a real Web-Application platform. Thanks! Alexander Adam EvolGrafiX - http://www.EvolGrafiX.com GoSVG.net! - http://www.GoSVG.net - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: svg mountainbike simulation, comments requested
You SVG Viewer detector needs improving... It indicates I have no SVG Viewer while I see your entry page with IE 5.5 with ASV3.01. Same when clicking ENTER SIMULATION, but at least I can CONTINUE ANYWAYS... BTW, I wonder why you open a secondary window. I dislike this practice as often it opens too much needless windows. The French LaPoste site is a bad example of this practice. After all, if I want a distinct window, I know how to open it when clicking on a link... Well, that's a minor issue. Funny and nice progress bar. First impression: wow! Very nice. Both elegant and functionnal. Well, I have an old computer: a PII300 running Win98SE. I move a window, I have to wait several seconds before it moves to the mouse position... Same for tab switching, I counted up to 4. Well, of course, my machine is obsolete, and that's not your fault, it is more a known problem with ASV3. Don't aim low in quality... I wonder how it will be in Renesis... I know nothing about such bikes, but I am impressed to see so many parameters, including measures of the biker parts... OK, I played a bit, but it is clearly unmanageable on my computer... But congratulations, obviously a lot of work went into this application. Very very impressive. -- Philippe Lhoste -- (near) Paris -- France -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr -- For servers mangling my From and Reply-To fields, -- please send private answers to PhiLho(a)GMX.net -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- hi, thanks for pointing out the ie5.5 issue to me. there certainly seems to be a bug in the plugin check. i think i might as well reactivate an old pentium200, that has not been used in years and install windows98 or so to check that. about opening an extra window: i am still a little uncertain about how to really do it. opening in an extra window makes my screen crowded (especially since help/feedback/... again open windows), but it gives me the opportunity to enter the application in a moderate sized window. not doing so might lead to the application opening in full 1600/1200, slowing things down considerably. don't know yet which issue to consider more important best regards, hannes - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: svg mountainbike simulation, comments requested
thanks for all feedback posted so far. i will think about andreas' comment about the at your own risk link, maybe i can come up with a cleaner way to do this. thanks for pointing out the correct mime type also. i never really thought about one of them being right and the other one wrong. will be fixed. as for the plugin check, i have abandoned the idea of doing it completely in javascript, and have resigned to the old way of loading a hidden svg, which, after having loaded successfully, redirects to another page. that page then calls back to the main interface. on the page containing the svg there is a meta refresh tag, which, in case the svg does not redirect earlier, calls an error page, that, in return, also calls back to the main interface. depending on the type of callback, i display the warning or not. the progress bar animation runs approximately the same amount of time that the meta refresh tag waits, and is mainly there to give the impression that something is happening and also to attract the user's attention to the entry point of the simulation. i will try to find out why the check is not working under linux oder macOsX as soon as possible. there is still loads of work to do, primarilly in the backend: saving and retrieving, dxf export, jpg- and pdf conversion. also, i am working on a small http server, that will make it possible to run the application offline on a single machine. that way, one would still be able to use one's favorite browser, while the server will grant (controlled) access to the local file system. best regards, hannes - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: svg mountainbike simulation, comments requested
very cool! I have no idea about bikes and don't understand all the parameters ... I have one suggestion about the plugin detection: on Linux and MacOSX the plugin detection does not work correctly, although your project works fine and the plugin is present. I would suggest that you do not hide the link where one can go on at his own risk without plugin detection. I was first struggling to find the link where to go on ... Other than that I think it is a very cool SVG application. I cannot give you any specific feedback though, since I am not a mountain biker and don't know all the parameters. But I like the interactivity and tooltips that you created. Andreas --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, higorion [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this is a tool to simulate several suspension related properties of mountainbikes. a first presentation in front of some mountainbike guys at the bike- festival in riva-del-garda/italy turned out quite good. even though it is not finished yet, i would be glad about comments from the svg community also, for now there is still enough time left for constructive critisism and posible changes. it has been tested with asv3+6, and it should not be too much hassle to adapt it to run with mozilla svg also. if you are interested, have a look at: http://www.igorion.com/_susp_dev/ best regards, hannes - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: svg mountainbike simulation, comments requested
--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Holger Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: higorion wrote: this is a tool to simulate several suspension related properties of mountainbikes. Wow! that looks impressive, great job. i especially like your windows, very nice!!. [...] another thing is that it doesnt work in the linux version of ASV3, but this version is extremely bugy, so i would care to much. it would be great if you could make this run in mozilla native SVG as well. Well, I don't think that's exactly true. Under Mozilla(Firefox), the mouse interactions don't work (which is a Firefox/ASV bug), but with Konqueror/ASV3.1, it works fine for me under Linux. For any SVG application that uses mousedown/mousemove events, I always use Konqueror/ASV, since Konq implements the older NS4 plugin API that ASV was designed for. Thanks, --kirby - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
