Re: [swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
Was there any progress made on this? It almost feels like were not going to
move to a forum until Swift 6-7. Would be interesting to see a sign of progress
here. :)
Am 3. August 2017 um 23:14:16, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution
(swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:
When moving to a forum, the problem becomes a thread splintering to an
overwhelming tree. I'd prefer to see a single primary thread (as in the mailing
lists) with breakout threads for working groups. These could be built either
around already identified areas (see manifestos) or future directions (such as
mathematics, fp, merging features from other languages).
I think announce should announce. One thread, one purpose.
I think evolution should have a review forum: one thread for each proposal.
Pitches and RFC should have their own forum, with individual threads. The
dangers here are (1) losing good ideas, (2) good ideas that are timed poorly,
(3) redundant ideas from not having found previous discussions, (4) well
intentioned but inappropriate ideas. Having a way to filter types 3 and 4 out
to a subforum to raise the S:N should be possible but will require some kind of
moderation (such as Xiodi Wu has put such effort into supporting)
Working groups need their own development area. There needs to be some sort of
top-level organization to make this usable ("Generics", "Dispatch",
"Calendar/Clocks/Time", "Mathematics", "Strings", "Collections", whatever), but
there should also be a level of flexiblity. I'd recommend giving manifesto
topics initial priority at the top level but I'd also suggest that there have
to be some kind of effort to open a new discussion area, to limit the number of
"ghost forums".
A SE version of a FAQ, be it "Commonly Proposed"/"Commonly Rejected" and some
kind of Quinn-like Eskimo support for directing and moderating.
The measures of success are:
* Can track news ("announce")
* Can participate in active reviews
* Can read archived reviews
* Can pitch and develop proposals as part of a working group
* Can search for previous discussions
* Can look up whether common topics have already been hit
* Can support a small and well-populated forum hierarchy with few orphans and
ghosts
* Communicates that the forum is a non-social working area and a public record
of language development.
-- E
On Aug 1, 2017, at 11:13 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution
wrote:
A while back a decision was reached to move from using mailing lists for
swift-evolution to using a forum, specifically Discourse. At the time that
decision was made, efforts had been already well committed for supporting the
development of Swift 4 — including efforts supporting important infrastructure
efforts such as the source compatibility suite. I apologize for not providing
more transparency in why moving to a forum was being delayed. Some things took
longer than expected.
To be clear, the plan is to still move to Discourse, and with Swift 4 winding
down there is now bandwidth to focus on making the transition from mailing
lists to a forum. As part of that transition, I’d like to get some feedback
from the community.
There has been some good conversations on this mailing list on how
swift-evolution can possibly evolve to better serve the needs of the community.
I’m not talking about whether or not we use a mailing list or a forum — that
decision has been made. Specifically, I’m talking about how a forum could best
be structured to organize discussions and allow everyone to optimally
participate. In the move to Discourse, we have the opportunity here to
possibly do things a bit differently than we have been so far.
For example, here are some of the questions I’m thinking about how we should be
use a forum:
- We currently have swift-evolution and swift-evolution-announce. Should we
use a specific “category” in the forum for "proposals that are in active
review" — and possibly remove the need to have something like
swift-evolution-announce?
- Should we have other topical areas to organize discussions? If so, at what
granularity?
We can certainly figure out a lot of this over time, but I’d like some feedback
from the community now on things they’d like to see in how we organize the
swift-evolution forum based on experiences we’ve had with swift-evolution since
it was created.
Please chime in on this thread if you have feedback, and focus on keeping this
constructive.
Thanks,
Ted
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Re: [swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
When moving to a forum, the problem becomes a thread splintering to an
overwhelming tree. I'd prefer to see a single primary thread (as in the mailing
lists) with breakout threads for working groups. These could be built either
around already identified areas (see manifestos) or future directions (such as
mathematics, fp, merging features from other languages).
I think announce should announce. One thread, one purpose.
I think evolution should have a review forum: one thread for each proposal.
Pitches and RFC should have their own forum, with individual threads. The
dangers here are (1) losing good ideas, (2) good ideas that are timed poorly,
(3) redundant ideas from not having found previous discussions, (4) well
intentioned but inappropriate ideas. Having a way to filter types 3 and 4 out
to a subforum to raise the S:N should be possible but will require some kind of
moderation (such as Xiodi Wu has put such effort into supporting)
Working groups need their own development area. There needs to be some sort of
top-level organization to make this usable ("Generics", "Dispatch",
"Calendar/Clocks/Time", "Mathematics", "Strings", "Collections", whatever), but
there should also be a level of flexiblity. I'd recommend giving manifesto
topics initial priority at the top level but I'd also suggest that there have
to be some kind of effort to open a new discussion area, to limit the number of
"ghost forums".
A SE version of a FAQ, be it "Commonly Proposed"/"Commonly Rejected" and some
kind of Quinn-like Eskimo support for directing and moderating.
The measures of success are:
* Can track news ("announce")
* Can participate in active reviews
* Can read archived reviews
* Can pitch and develop proposals as part of a working group
* Can search for previous discussions
* Can look up whether common topics have already been hit
* Can support a small and well-populated forum hierarchy with few orphans and
ghosts
* Communicates that the forum is a non-social working area and a public record
of language development.
-- E
> On Aug 1, 2017, at 11:13 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution
> wrote:
>
> A while back a decision was reached to move from using mailing lists for
> swift-evolution to using a forum, specifically Discourse. At the time that
> decision was made, efforts had been already well committed for supporting the
> development of Swift 4 — including efforts supporting important
> infrastructure efforts such as the source compatibility suite. I apologize
> for not providing more transparency in why moving to a forum was being
> delayed. Some things took longer than expected.
>
> To be clear, the plan is to still move to Discourse, and with Swift 4 winding
> down there is now bandwidth to focus on making the transition from mailing
> lists to a forum. As part of that transition, I’d like to get some feedback
> from the community.
>
> There has been some good conversations on this mailing list on how
> swift-evolution can possibly evolve to better serve the needs of the
> community. I’m not talking about whether or not we use a mailing list or a
> forum — that decision has been made. Specifically, I’m talking about how a
> forum could best be structured to organize discussions and allow everyone to
> optimally participate. In the move to Discourse, we have the opportunity
> here to possibly do things a bit differently than we have been so far.
>
> For example, here are some of the questions I’m thinking about how we should
> be use a forum:
>
> - We currently have swift-evolution and swift-evolution-announce. Should we
> use a specific “category” in the forum for "proposals that are in active
> review" — and possibly remove the need to have something like
> swift-evolution-announce?
>
> - Should we have other topical areas to organize discussions? If so, at what
> granularity?
>
> We can certainly figure out a lot of this over time, but I’d like some
> feedback from the community now on things they’d like to see in how we
> organize the swift-evolution forum based on experiences we’ve had with
> swift-evolution since it was created.
>
> Please chime in on this thread if you have feedback, and focus on keeping
> this constructive.
>
> Thanks,
> Ted
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
[swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
Hi! I hope I sent this email correctly and it entered the RFC thread started by Ted. My pitch: what about timeline of thread as a category? Like this: - Short term: for current release of Swift, aka 4.1 after 4.0 is released. - Mid term: for next release of Swift, aka 4.0 now, because 3.x is the current release. - Long term: for releases far away. Pertaining Swift 5.0 now, or Swift 6.0, 7.0 and such. I think it’s at least useful as a divider between different topics, because depending on the timeline, the planning process and base priority of the threads should be different. — Félix ___ swift-evolution mailing list swift-evolution@swift.org https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Re: [swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 10:58 Tino Heth <2...@gmx.de> wrote: > > For Swift 4, the core team identified a set of priorities. Provided the > same will be done for Swift 5, these are natural categories for the > evolution part of the forum, to my mind. > > We fully agree on this point. > > It should have the positive effect of encouraging discussion to be > focused, and would allow even new participants to see in what ways they can > contribute. > > … but I'm actually not so sure about the benefit of focussing: > I've heard from several people that they want to participate in the > discussions, but are repelled by the ML. > Don't understand me wrong, I think that is a big argument for the switch — > but if it starts a second hype, we might be happy if each one of us > concentrates on the areas he's interested in, instead of having hundreds of > answers for the topic of the day ;-) > Wait, but that _is_ what we want—the argument for moving to a different format is to attract more participation so that we get deeper feedback reflecting a broader swath of the community for the topic of the day. It’s _not_ been about getting hundreds of topics going, and in fact IMO that’s an anti-goal! > ___ swift-evolution mailing list swift-evolution@swift.org https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Re: [swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
> For Swift 4, the core team identified a set of priorities. Provided the same > will be done for Swift 5, these are natural categories for the evolution part > of the forum, to my mind. We fully agree on this point. > It should have the positive effect of encouraging discussion to be focused, > and would allow even new participants to see in what ways they can contribute. … but I'm actually not so sure about the benefit of focussing: I've heard from several people that they want to participate in the discussions, but are repelled by the ML. Don't understand me wrong, I think that is a big argument for the switch — but if it starts a second hype, we might be happy if each one of us concentrates on the areas he's interested in, instead of having hundreds of answers for the topic of the day ;-)___ swift-evolution mailing list swift-evolution@swift.org https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Re: [swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
For Swift 4, the core team identified a set of priorities. Provided the
same will be done for Swift 5, these are natural categories for the
evolution part of the forum, to my mind. It should have the positive effect
of encouraging discussion to be focused, and would allow even new
participants to see in what ways they can contribute.
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 03:46 David Hart via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> On 2 Aug 2017, at 09:44, Tino Heth via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the update!
>
> - We currently have swift-evolution and swift-evolution-announce. Should
> we use a specific “category” in the forum for "proposals that are in active
> review" — and possibly remove the need to have something like
> swift-evolution-announce?
>
> Guess swift-evolution-announce is the right place to ask this question…
> but I don't know where the answers should go ;-)
>
>
> Whatever we do concerning swift-evolution-announce, I think it would be
> worth pinning the review threads to the top of swift-evolution during the
> review period.
>
> Just to help frame the rest of the discussion on this thread, the
> intention is to move all of the lists to Discourse.
>
> All lists, and a single instance of Discourse?
> I don't remember if there was a discussion about Discourse in swift-dev…
> imho that list doesn't suffer from the problems that evolution has.
> Also, it will be very easy to cross-post from users to evolution (without
> switching from Mailclient to browser and search for a post in the
> archives), so imho a strong separation has no downsides.
>
>
> I think swift-users, swift-evolution and swift-evolution-announce would
> all benefit a lot from Discourse because they are high volume and is more
> approchable for newcomers. I don’t have a strong opinion about the -dev
> lists, but its true it would be simpler if everything was on the same
> platform.
>
> - Should we have other topical areas to organize discussions? If so, at
> what granularity?
>
> There are some topics (multithreading, metaprogramming, reflection,
> generics, ownership…) that imho couldn't be pushed forward on the mailing
> list because of their size.
> I hope Discourse will help to manage concepts that don't fit in a single
> proposal (there's a wiki posts feature that sounds promising) and allows
> talking about features that can't be implemented soon, but might be
> affected by short-term changes.
> There are already some manifestos written, so I guess there might be Core
> members with special interest in certain topics who could act as patron for
> "their" subject.
>
>
> I think it would be very beneficial to organise discussions by topics.
> That would allow pinning the relevant manifestos at the top for everyone to
> keep in mind :)
>
> I'm quite sure that moving to a forum will increase the number of posts
> dramatically — but it also offers help to manage higher throughput:
> - We could have one or more focus-topics for each release ("X is up next,
> other topics won't receive much attention from Core")
> - With likes, there's an easy way to signal agreement to an opinion
> without flooding the ML. This could help Core to to find relevant input.
>
> Looking forward to login ;-)
> - Tino
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Re: [swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
> On 2 Aug 2017, at 09:44, Tino Heth via swift-evolution
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the update!
>
>> - We currently have swift-evolution and swift-evolution-announce. Should
>> we use a specific “category” in the forum for "proposals that are in active
>> review" — and possibly remove the need to have something like
>> swift-evolution-announce?
> Guess swift-evolution-announce is the right place to ask this question… but I
> don't know where the answers should go ;-)
Whatever we do concerning swift-evolution-announce, I think it would be worth
pinning the review threads to the top of swift-evolution during the review
period.
>> Just to help frame the rest of the discussion on this thread, the intention
>> is to move all of the lists to Discourse.
> All lists, and a single instance of Discourse?
> I don't remember if there was a discussion about Discourse in swift-dev… imho
> that list doesn't suffer from the problems that evolution has.
> Also, it will be very easy to cross-post from users to evolution (without
> switching from Mailclient to browser and search for a post in the archives),
> so imho a strong separation has no downsides.
I think swift-users, swift-evolution and swift-evolution-announce would all
benefit a lot from Discourse because they are high volume and is more
approchable for newcomers. I don’t have a strong opinion about the -dev lists,
but its true it would be simpler if everything was on the same platform.
>> - Should we have other topical areas to organize discussions? If so, at
>> what granularity?
> There are some topics (multithreading, metaprogramming, reflection, generics,
> ownership…) that imho couldn't be pushed forward on the mailing list because
> of their size.
> I hope Discourse will help to manage concepts that don't fit in a single
> proposal (there's a wiki posts feature that sounds promising) and allows
> talking about features that can't be implemented soon, but might be affected
> by short-term changes.
> There are already some manifestos written, so I guess there might be Core
> members with special interest in certain topics who could act as patron for
> "their" subject.
I think it would be very beneficial to organise discussions by topics. That
would allow pinning the relevant manifestos at the top for everyone to keep in
mind :)
> I'm quite sure that moving to a forum will increase the number of posts
> dramatically — but it also offers help to manage higher throughput:
> - We could have one or more focus-topics for each release ("X is up next,
> other topics won't receive much attention from Core")
> - With likes, there's an easy way to signal agreement to an opinion without
> flooding the ML. This could help Core to to find relevant input.
>
> Looking forward to login ;-)
> - Tino
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Re: [swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
Thanks for the update!
> - We currently have swift-evolution and swift-evolution-announce. Should we
> use a specific “category” in the forum for "proposals that are in active
> review" — and possibly remove the need to have something like
> swift-evolution-announce?
Guess swift-evolution-announce is the right place to ask this question… but I
don't know where the answers should go ;-)
> Just to help frame the rest of the discussion on this thread, the intention
> is to move all of the lists to Discourse.
All lists, and a single instance of Discourse?
I don't remember if there was a discussion about Discourse in swift-dev… imho
that list doesn't suffer from the problems that evolution has.
Also, it will be very easy to cross-post from users to evolution (without
switching from Mailclient to browser and search for a post in the archives), so
imho a strong separation has no downsides.
> - Should we have other topical areas to organize discussions? If so, at what
> granularity?
There are some topics (multithreading, metaprogramming, reflection, generics,
ownership…) that imho couldn't be pushed forward on the mailing list because of
their size.
I hope Discourse will help to manage concepts that don't fit in a single
proposal (there's a wiki posts feature that sounds promising) and allows
talking about features that can't be implemented soon, but might be affected by
short-term changes.
There are already some manifestos written, so I guess there might be Core
members with special interest in certain topics who could act as patron for
"their" subject.
I'm quite sure that moving to a forum will increase the number of posts
dramatically — but it also offers help to manage higher throughput:
- We could have one or more focus-topics for each release ("X is up next, other
topics won't receive much attention from Core")
- With likes, there's an easy way to signal agreement to an opinion without
flooding the ML. This could help Core to to find relevant input.
Looking forward to login ;-)
- Tino___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Re: [swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
> On Aug 1, 2017, at 10:30 PM, Rick Mann wrote: > > My inclination is to start with two broad-level categories: Evolution and > User (this presumes both the evolution and user lists are moving to > Discourse). Just to help frame the rest of the discussion on this thread, the intention is to move all of the lists to Discourse. ___ swift-evolution mailing list swift-evolution@swift.org https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Re: [swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
My inclination is to start with two broad-level categories: Evolution and User (this presumes both the evolution and user lists are moving to Discourse). To the degree that there are separate parts of evolution or user that never cross over, it would make sense to have more categories, but I think it would be best to wait to add them. A topic can be moved from one category to another, so perhaps after a pitch in Evolution gets enough traction, it could be moved to a "Swift 5" category (e.g.). > On Aug 1, 2017, at 22:13 , Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution > wrote: > > A while back a decision was reached to move from using mailing lists for > swift-evolution to using a forum, specifically Discourse. At the time that > decision was made, efforts had been already well committed for supporting the > development of Swift 4 — including efforts supporting important > infrastructure efforts such as the source compatibility suite. I apologize > for not providing more transparency in why moving to a forum was being > delayed. Some things took longer than expected. > > To be clear, the plan is to still move to Discourse, and with Swift 4 winding > down there is now bandwidth to focus on making the transition from mailing > lists to a forum. As part of that transition, I’d like to get some feedback > from the community. > > There has been some good conversations on this mailing list on how > swift-evolution can possibly evolve to better serve the needs of the > community. I’m not talking about whether or not we use a mailing list or a > forum — that decision has been made. Specifically, I’m talking about how a > forum could best be structured to organize discussions and allow everyone to > optimally participate. In the move to Discourse, we have the opportunity > here to possibly do things a bit differently than we have been so far. > > For example, here are some of the questions I’m thinking about how we should > be use a forum: > > - We currently have swift-evolution and swift-evolution-announce. Should we > use a specific “category” in the forum for "proposals that are in active > review" — and possibly remove the need to have something like > swift-evolution-announce? > > - Should we have other topical areas to organize discussions? If so, at what > granularity? > > We can certainly figure out a lot of this over time, but I’d like some > feedback from the community now on things they’d like to see in how we > organize the swift-evolution forum based on experiences we’ve had with > swift-evolution since it was created. > > Please chime in on this thread if you have feedback, and focus on keeping > this constructive. > > Thanks, > Ted > ___ > swift-evolution mailing list > swift-evolution@swift.org > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution -- Rick Mann rm...@latencyzero.com ___ swift-evolution mailing list swift-evolution@swift.org https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
[swift-evolution] RFC: structuring forums for best use for swift-evolution
A while back a decision was reached to move from using mailing lists for swift-evolution to using a forum, specifically Discourse. At the time that decision was made, efforts had been already well committed for supporting the development of Swift 4 — including efforts supporting important infrastructure efforts such as the source compatibility suite. I apologize for not providing more transparency in why moving to a forum was being delayed. Some things took longer than expected. To be clear, the plan is to still move to Discourse, and with Swift 4 winding down there is now bandwidth to focus on making the transition from mailing lists to a forum. As part of that transition, I’d like to get some feedback from the community. There has been some good conversations on this mailing list on how swift-evolution can possibly evolve to better serve the needs of the community. I’m not talking about whether or not we use a mailing list or a forum — that decision has been made. Specifically, I’m talking about how a forum could best be structured to organize discussions and allow everyone to optimally participate. In the move to Discourse, we have the opportunity here to possibly do things a bit differently than we have been so far. For example, here are some of the questions I’m thinking about how we should be use a forum: - We currently have swift-evolution and swift-evolution-announce. Should we use a specific “category” in the forum for "proposals that are in active review" — and possibly remove the need to have something like swift-evolution-announce? - Should we have other topical areas to organize discussions? If so, at what granularity? We can certainly figure out a lot of this over time, but I’d like some feedback from the community now on things they’d like to see in how we organize the swift-evolution forum based on experiences we’ve had with swift-evolution since it was created. Please chime in on this thread if you have feedback, and focus on keeping this constructive. Thanks, Ted___ swift-evolution mailing list swift-evolution@swift.org https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
