Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Ted kremenek via swift-evolution]

There has been a tremendous amount of participation on this thread, with some 
extremely thoughtful analysis of how the mailing list serves the community and 
the tradeoffs of moving to a forum, like Discourse.

I've been thinking about the points made on this thread as well as looking at 
the experimental Discourse setup that Nate Cook provided.  While there are 
tradeoffs with moving swift-evolution to Discourse, I think the benefits 
outweigh the negatives.

After discussing this with the Core Team, the decision is to move 
swift-evolution and swift-users to Discourse.  I will also bring it up for 
discussion on the -dev mailing lists to do the same there, so that we all are 
using consistent infrastructure.

No rollout plan has been established yet.  People are busy, and there are a 
variety of logistics to figure out.  My intent is to engage with a handful of 
people across the community on helping with the transition, including making 
sure we configure Discourse properly so we have the best experience for those 
who want to continue to use email.  We also want to import the history of the 
mailing list as well so that we do not lose valuable conversation.  As a 
rollout plan gets figured out it will get communicated.

I realize that many people aren't following this thread anymore, so I'll send 
out a separate email just so people don't miss the decision.  Thank you all to 
EVERYONE who participated in this thread and expressed an opinion.

Ted


> On Jan 23, 2017, at 8:02 AM, Joshua Alvarado via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hey swifters,
>   I would like to (re)open up discussion on moving away from email for the 
> swift evolution mailing list. I know this has probably been discussed before 
> but it really should be addressed again. I wouldn't even know how to find if 
> it has been discussed before because it would be too hard to go back through 
> the history. 
> 
> The main factors to move away from email is because email may deter 
> newcomers, history, and threads. I may be speaking for myself when saying 
> email may intimidate newcomers from expressing their opinions and thoughts. 
> It is hard to know what has already been discussed and who is even in the 
> active conversation. Keeping track of history is a pain as well. Searching 
> through many emails to find who said what and when is not effective in email 
> clients. Also, code formatting in emails is not effective. Let's discuss and 
> actually make an action to move away from email if the community so agrees. 
> Of course, recommendations are Slack, Hipchat (-1), and Gitter.
> 
> -- 
> Joshua Alvarado
> alvaradojosh...@gmail.com
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 7, 2017, at 1:23 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 7, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Tino Heth <2...@gmx.de > 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Believe it or not, not everyone in the world can afford the device and data 
>>> plan for a JavaScript-rich web front end (I'm aware of the mobile apps). I 
>>> remember only being able to buy an iPod Touch myself when it came out. I 
>>> *would* be able to participate SE if it existed back then. Because email is 
>>> so old and work well in offline environment.
>> 
>> I have full comprehension for those who want to keep their email workflow as 
>> it is, but as it has been pointed out many times before: Discourse has 
>> support for that… (and it's a little bit annoying to see many fans of email 
>> ignoring this fact in their argumentation over and over).
>> 
>> So there are clear benefits associated with a switch, whereas the 
>> disadvantages are more or less hypothetical and might as well be proven 
>> wrong by reality.
> 
> From my point of view it’s the other way around: email has been working fine. 
> Discourse (which I experimented with Mattt’ setup with a little) does not 
> recreate the same email experience (extra HTML content, code indentation 
> issues, etc, it’s all been pointed out in this thread but have not been 
> answered). Just like a language feature, it’s the proposal’s responsibility 
> to justify a change.
s/Mattt/Nate/g, my apologies 
> 
>> If such vague fear is enough to entrench the status quo, I'd really worry 
>> about the impact of this mindset on future progress.
>> Telegraph and morse code are much more mature than even email, and more 
>> reliable than this whole internet-thing, and there are marked pieces of clay 
>> that exist for thousands of years and might still be readable when all our 
>> modern digital data is forgotten, so progress is definitely not always 
>> improvement in every aspect.
>> But to repeat it once more: In this case, moving to a more modern solution 
>> keeps the old one intact.
> Again, either you missed issues pointed out in this thread or you are not 
> being entirely honest with this last statement.
> 
>> 
>> - Tino
>> 
>>> I agree with email is and Swift is young. Not sure that's a real reason to 
>>> ditch email, however . In fact, I could say *because* email is so old, 
>>> everything about it has become mature and reliable. Besides great, 
>>> customized clients, it's also a lower requirement for participants.
>> The reason for the original statement is that I see many similarities to 
>> Objective-C:
>> I know several people who oppose Swift very strongly, although the mature 
>> and reliable Objective-C with its customised compilers and lower 
>> requirements happily coexists with its successor.
> 
> ___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 7, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Tino Heth <2...@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
>> Believe it or not, not everyone in the world can afford the device and data 
>> plan for a JavaScript-rich web front end (I'm aware of the mobile apps). I 
>> remember only being able to buy an iPod Touch myself when it came out. I 
>> *would* be able to participate SE if it existed back then. Because email is 
>> so old and work well in offline environment.
> 
> I have full comprehension for those who want to keep their email workflow as 
> it is, but as it has been pointed out many times before: Discourse has 
> support for that… (and it's a little bit annoying to see many fans of email 
> ignoring this fact in their argumentation over and over).
> 
> So there are clear benefits associated with a switch, whereas the 
> disadvantages are more or less hypothetical and might as well be proven wrong 
> by reality.

>From my point of view it’s the other way around: email has been working fine. 
>Discourse (which I experimented with Mattt’ setup with a little) does not 
>recreate the same email experience (extra HTML content, code indentation 
>issues, etc, it’s all been pointed out in this thread but have not been 
>answered). Just like a language feature, it’s the proposal’s responsibility to 
>justify a change.

> If such vague fear is enough to entrench the status quo, I'd really worry 
> about the impact of this mindset on future progress.
> Telegraph and morse code are much more mature than even email, and more 
> reliable than this whole internet-thing, and there are marked pieces of clay 
> that exist for thousands of years and might still be readable when all our 
> modern digital data is forgotten, so progress is definitely not always 
> improvement in every aspect.
> But to repeat it once more: In this case, moving to a more modern solution 
> keeps the old one intact.
Again, either you missed issues pointed out in this thread or you are not being 
entirely honest with this last statement.

> 
> - Tino
> 
>> I agree with email is and Swift is young. Not sure that's a real reason to 
>> ditch email, however . In fact, I could say *because* email is so old, 
>> everything about it has become mature and reliable. Besides great, 
>> customized clients, it's also a lower requirement for participants.
> The reason for the original statement is that I see many similarities to 
> Objective-C:
> I know several people who oppose Swift very strongly, although the mature and 
> reliable Objective-C with its customised compilers and lower requirements 
> happily coexists with its successor.

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Tino Heth via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> Believe it or not, not everyone in the world can afford the device and
> data plan for a JavaScript-rich web front end (I'm aware of the mobile
> apps). I remember only being able to buy an iPod Touch myself when it came
> out. I *would* be able to participate SE if it existed back then. Because
> email is so old and work well in offline environment.
>
>
> I have full comprehension for those who want to keep their email workflow
> as it is, but as it has been pointed out many times before: Discourse has
> support for that… (and it's a little bit annoying to see many fans of email
> ignoring this fact in their argumentation over and over).
>

This isn't really fair; while Discourse does have email support, it is not
perfect, and would not be a "first-class" experience for those who are
inclined to continue using mail clients. We tested

this

on Nate's demo site. As some have pointed out, the emails are less "raw" in
that they have some Discourse UI on top of the actual content, and more
importantly, inline replies do not work very well (unless someone wants to
drastically improve the email parser
).

Personally I believe that the benefits vastly outweigh these drawbacks, but
other than enumerating both (as we have already done in this thread and
several prior), I'm not sure what is left for the community to discuss
here. Final evaluation of the benefits and drawbacks can be left to the
internal team responsible for shepherding the community.


> So there are clear benefits associated with a switch, whereas the
> disadvantages are more or less hypothetical and might as well be proven
> wrong by reality.
> If such vague fear is enough to entrench the status quo, I'd really worry
> about the impact of this mindset on future progress.
>
> Telegraph and morse code are much more mature than even email, and more
> reliable than this whole internet-thing, and there are marked pieces of
> clay that exist for thousands of years and might still be readable when all
> our modern digital data is forgotten, so progress is definitely not always
> improvement in every aspect.
> But to repeat it once more: In this case, moving to a more modern solution
> keeps the old one intact.
>
> - Tino
>
> I agree with email is and Swift is young. Not sure that's a real reason to
> ditch email, however . In fact, I could say *because* email is so old,
> everything about it has become mature and reliable. Besides great,
> customized clients, it's also a lower requirement for participants.
>
> The reason for the original statement is that I see many similarities to
> Objective-C:
> I know several people who oppose Swift very strongly, although the mature
> and reliable Objective-C with its customised compilers and lower
> requirements happily coexists with its successor.
>
> ___
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> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Tino Heth via swift-evolution]

> Believe it or not, not everyone in the world can afford the device and data 
> plan for a JavaScript-rich web front end (I'm aware of the mobile apps). I 
> remember only being able to buy an iPod Touch myself when it came out. I 
> *would* be able to participate SE if it existed back then. Because email is 
> so old and work well in offline environment.

I have full comprehension for those who want to keep their email workflow as it 
is, but as it has been pointed out many times before: Discourse has support for 
that… (and it's a little bit annoying to see many fans of email ignoring this 
fact in their argumentation over and over).

So there are clear benefits associated with a switch, whereas the disadvantages 
are more or less hypothetical and might as well be proven wrong by reality.
If such vague fear is enough to entrench the status quo, I'd really worry about 
the impact of this mindset on future progress.

Telegraph and morse code are much more mature than even email, and more 
reliable than this whole internet-thing, and there are marked pieces of clay 
that exist for thousands of years and might still be readable when all our 
modern digital data is forgotten, so progress is definitely not always 
improvement in every aspect.
But to repeat it once more: In this case, moving to a more modern solution 
keeps the old one intact.

- Tino

> I agree with email is and Swift is young. Not sure that's a real reason to 
> ditch email, however . In fact, I could say *because* email is so old, 
> everything about it has become mature and reliable. Besides great, customized 
> clients, it's also a lower requirement for participants.
The reason for the original statement is that I see many similarities to 
Objective-C:
I know several people who oppose Swift very strongly, although the mature and 
reliable Objective-C with its customised compilers and lower requirements 
happily coexists with its successor.___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

Turns out it’s possible to retroactively participate a thread that one hasn’t 
subscribed to. An example of it happening is here: 
https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20170206/031544.html
 


I wrote about steps to do it: 
http://dduan.net/2017/02/07/replying-to-old-mailing-list-threads/ 


I don’t think this fact and method adds to the strength to 
email-as-a-tool-for-discussion. But it does address a shortcoming that bothered 
me a lot previously.

> On Feb 6, 2017, at 7:18 PM, Daniel Duan  wrote:
> 
> My experiment results shows that email clients does more work to group email 
> threads than mailman. I’m going to write a blog post about how to participate 
> retroactively to mailing list discussions. Will keep you updated :)
> 
> 
>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 7:15 PM, Erica Sadun  wrote:
>> 
>> Ah, noted.
>> 
>> However both worked in my inbox
>> 
>> -- E
>> 
>>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 8:04 PM, Daniel Duan  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I only consider this one “worked” since mailman actually associated it 
>>> under the original thread on lists.swift.org. It seems the “In-Reply-To” 
>>> header is all the magic required!
>>> 
 On Feb 6, 2017, at 6:47 PM, Daniel Duan  wrote:
 
 Terribly sorry for spamming. This will be the last one.
 
 I've added the `In-Reply-To` header to thunderbird and included the 
 correct (hopefully!) value from a previous, on-thread message. This email 
 address was not subscribed to the thread.
 
>>> 
>> 
> 

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Maxim Veksler via swift-evolution]

Ok, super off topic but since it's Apple after all...

Email was considered ancient even back at 2007, when the iPhone was lunched
and yet someone at Apple decided it was an important enough channel to use
it's scale as a promotional channel with the "Sent from my iPhone", this
persists to this very day. I wonder - What was the rational behind that
decision?  Possibly that might shade some new insights for this ongoing
discussion of email vs. web.

I personally feel that email is raw, i.e. the "protocol" and there might be
a room for a new native based solution aimed at mailing lists which
supports "modern" type of communication but behind the scenes communicates
using "raw" email messages to enable all the awesome Crusties in the
community a valid solution. The beauty of email is that the information is
mine. I don't need to worry about anyone shutting their discourse / service
down and me losing all the historic reference. I "own" it, I can search it.
I can print it and co.

-m

On Tue, 7 Feb 2017 at 14:09 Tino Heth via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

>
> I’d encourage those who want web forums to give Mail.app a try. It does a
> remarkable job of keeping emails threaded.
>
> That doesn't read like we are using the same Mail.app… it's not failing on
> a regular basis for me, but it's far away from being remarkable (at least
> not remarkably good).
>
> Sticking with Email feels terribly behind the times, and considering Swift
> being such a young language, that imho is really odd.
> Email is old and trusted, but the emphasis is on old: The whole protocol
> has big flaws which no one anticipated in the early days, which have never
> been fixed, and which most likely won't be fixed ever.
> Discourse on the other hand may have some features that could have a tiny
> negative impact for those who prefer to keep things as they have been in
> the eighties, but it is not a huge network of servers and clients governed
> by several billion different parties which makes progress impossible.
> It's a single software fully controlled by whoever sets it up — and you
> know what: It's even open source!
> So every programmer here has the ability to solve all the issues that have
> been brought up as an argument to stick with mailing lists (and as it
> happens to be that I am a programmer, that gives me a great feeling of
> empowerment, whereas the legacy of email leaves me powerless).
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Tino Heth via swift-evolution]

> I’d encourage those who want web forums to give Mail.app a try. It does a 
> remarkable job of keeping emails threaded.
That doesn't read like we are using the same Mail.app… it's not failing on a 
regular basis for me, but it's far away from being remarkable (at least not 
remarkably good).

Sticking with Email feels terribly behind the times, and considering Swift 
being such a young language, that imho is really odd.
Email is old and trusted, but the emphasis is on old: The whole protocol has 
big flaws which no one anticipated in the early days, which have never been 
fixed, and which most likely won't be fixed ever.
Discourse on the other hand may have some features that could have a tiny 
negative impact for those who prefer to keep things as they have been in the 
eighties, but it is not a huge network of servers and clients governed by 
several billion different parties which makes progress impossible.
It's a single software fully controlled by whoever sets it up — and you know 
what: It's even open source!
So every programmer here has the ability to solve all the issues that have been 
brought up as an argument to stick with mailing lists (and as it happens to be 
that I am a programmer, that gives me a great feeling of empowerment, whereas 
the legacy of email leaves me powerless).


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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jérôme Duquennoy via swift-evolution]

I believe it will be prettyhard to find a solution that fits everyone’s 
workflow and habits considering the size of the community.
The chance we have is that communication systems tends to be very flexible 
nowadays.

Can we imagine some way to have multiple supports integrated ?
I can see tools like Zapier (https://zapier.com/zapbook/discourse/email/), that 
promises to integrate discourse and email.
Maybe we could have something that would:
- use a system like discourse to store and organise threads, provide a web 
access ;
- make it possible to register to receive posts by mail, or digests ;
- make it possible to post answers by mail ;

Maybe that would require some custom development, but most probably not very 
complex ones.
Maybe we could use that to “normalise” in some way the mails, like for exemple 
avoid having all the history of the discussion in a post (this makes mailman’s 
digest quite painful to read on a small screen like a phone :-) ).

Jerome
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution]

on Mon Feb 06 2017, Jacob Bandes-Storch  wrote:

> Gmail does the same; I wonder if it's a Mailman feature/bug that triggers
> the splitting.

Many mail clients don't properly use the References: header to assemble
threads, instead using subject lines.  I use Gnus and don't see epic
threads getting split up, FWIW.

> 
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 7:59 PM Charles Srstka via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>> Oh, Mail messes up the grouping of them quite a lot in my experience.
>> Whenever we get one of those epic, super controversial threads with tons of
>> posts in them, it’s almost guaranteed to split into two or three parallel
>> threads, on my machine anyway.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 6:45 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>> Mail.app grouped it in the correct thread (further proves that email
>> clients are awesome ). Unfortunately mailman did not do so.
>>
>> 
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:40 PM, James Berry  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>> I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman
>> use to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email
>> body, recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?
>>
>>
>> This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work
>> in your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.
>>
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
>>
>> No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the
>> option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when
>> you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to
>> not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email
>> account somewhere.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
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-- 
-Dave

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

Gmail does the same; I wonder if it's a Mailman feature/bug that triggers
the splitting.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 7:59 PM Charles Srstka via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> Oh, Mail messes up the grouping of them quite a lot in my experience.
> Whenever we get one of those epic, super controversial threads with tons of
> posts in them, it’s almost guaranteed to split into two or three parallel
> threads, on my machine anyway.
>
> Charles
>
> On Feb 6, 2017, at 6:45 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> Mail.app grouped it in the correct thread (further proves that email
> clients are awesome ). Unfortunately mailman did not do so.
>
> 
>
> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:40 PM, James Berry  wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman
> use to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email
> body, recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?
>
>
> This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work
> in your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
>
> No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the
> option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when
> you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to
> not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email
> account somewhere.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Charles Srstka via swift-evolution]

Oh, Mail messes up the grouping of them quite a lot in my experience. Whenever 
we get one of those epic, super controversial threads with tons of posts in 
them, it’s almost guaranteed to split into two or three parallel threads, on my 
machine anyway.

Charles

> On Feb 6, 2017, at 6:45 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mail.app grouped it in the correct thread (further proves that email clients 
> are awesome ). Unfortunately mailman did not do so.
> 
> 
>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:40 PM, James Berry > > wrote:
>> 
>>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman use 
>>> to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email body, 
>>> recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?
>> 
>> This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work in 
>> your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.
>> 
>>> 
 On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu > wrote:
 
 No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the 
 option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when 
 you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to 
 not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email 
 account somewhere.
 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

Terribly sorry for spamming. This will be the last one.

I've added the `In-Reply-To` header to thunderbird and included the 
correct (hopefully!) value from a previous, on-thread message. This 
email address was not subscribed to the thread.


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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

Here's attempt #2 from Thunderbird.

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

Here’s my attempt to chime in an existing thread from a newly subscribed email 
address.

> This may help
> 
> http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/23197/reply-to-mailman-archived-message
>  
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

Mail.app grouped it in the correct thread (further proves that email clients 
are awesome ). Unfortunately mailman did not do so.


> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:40 PM, James Berry  wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman use 
>> to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email body, 
>> recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?
> 
> This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work in 
> your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.
> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the 
>>> option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when 
>>> you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to 
>>> not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email 
>>> account somewhere.
>>> 
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[James Berry via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman use 
> to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email body, 
> recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?

This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work in 
your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.

> 
>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu > > wrote:
>> 
>> No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the 
>> option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when you 
>> finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to not 
>> storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email account 
>> somewhere.
>> 



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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman use to 
group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email body, 
recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?

> On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
> 
> No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the 
> option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when you 
> finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to not 
> storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email account 
> somewhere.
> 
> 
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 18:04 Daniel Duan  > wrote:
>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Xiaodi Wu > > wrote:
>> 
>> Agree strongly.
>> 
>> It is true, however, that a major pain point of the mailing list format is 
>> that it is not apparent how to join an ongoing thread unless you are already 
>> subscribed to the list. Thus, an occasional contributor must choose between 
>> subscribing and setting up dedicated filters for Swift mailing lists or be 
>> content only to initiate new conversations. If we could only overcome that 
>> issue, it'd be a huge step forward.
> 
> Subscribing and only-occasionally reading/sending is not mutually exclusive 
> though. One only needs to filter emails from a list to a folder. Most email 
> provider/client combos handle this nicely. Once subscribed, one can 
> retroactively participate any thread. As for threads pre-subscription, I 
> don’t mind starting a new thread (note this happens in forums for other 
> reasons, too).
> 
> (I can see an O’Rly book titled “Advanced Mailing List” in my mind right now 
> ).
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 17:24 Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 3:02 PM, Chris Hanson via swift-evolution 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:24 PM, James Berry via swift-evolution 
>>> > wrote:
 
 Speaking for myself only, discourse seems to give me little of value, 
 while it would plaster emails with html-laden buttons, etc, thus making my 
 favored experience worse than it is today. I’m fairly happy with using a 
 gmail account and server-side filters to file my swift-evolution mails 
 into a mailbox that I can then read on or offline with the threaded email 
 client of my choice.
>>> 
>>> This is my feeling as well. I also looked at the so-called “native app” for 
>>> Discourse and it looked like just a wrapper around the web site. It wasn’t 
>>> nearly the level of experience that I get from a high quality mail client 
>>> like Mail.app or GMail.
>>> 
>>> I would be all for a forum-like web interface to the mailing list for 
>>> people who find mailing lists somehow lacking or who have difficulty 
>>> configuring filters. However, I would be opposed in the strongest possible 
>>> terms to anything that makes the mailing list interface any sort of 
>>> second-class citizen, which is definitely what it appears switching to 
>>> something like Discourse would do.
>>> 
>> 
>> With regard to threading:
>> 
>> I’d encourage those who want web forums to give Mail.app a try. It does a 
>> remarkable job of keeping emails threaded. (incidentally, I’ve tried a few 
>> 3rd party email clients, the usual suspects with both iOS and macOS support, 
>> and find them *worse* at handling mailing list style email chains). There’s 
>> even more flexibility in the reading experience with things like Mutt where 
>> everything is customizable. 
>> 
>> Overall, I feel like the maturity of email tooling is not emphasized enough 
>> here.
>> 
>>>   -- Chris
>>>   -- who would also be opposed to using something like HipChat/Slack over 
>>> IRC
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
>>> 
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
>> 

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution]

No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the
option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when
you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to
not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email
account somewhere.


On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 18:04 Daniel Duan  wrote:

> On Feb 6, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
>
> Agree strongly.
>
> It is true, however, that a major pain point of the mailing list format is
> that it is not apparent how to join an ongoing thread unless you are
> already subscribed to the list. Thus, an occasional contributor must choose
> between subscribing and setting up dedicated filters for Swift mailing
> lists or be content only to initiate new conversations. If we could only
> overcome that issue, it'd be a huge step forward.
>
>
> Subscribing and only-occasionally reading/sending is not mutually
> exclusive though. One only needs to filter emails from a list to a folder.
> Most email provider/client combos handle this nicely. Once subscribed, one
> can retroactively participate any thread. As for threads pre-subscription,
> I don’t mind starting a new thread (note this happens in forums for other
> reasons, too).
>
> (I can see an O’Rly book titled “Advanced Mailing List” in my mind right
> now ).
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 17:24 Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> On Feb 6, 2017, at 3:02 PM, Chris Hanson via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:24 PM, James Berry via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
> Speaking for myself only, discourse seems to give me little of value,
> while it would plaster emails with html-laden buttons, etc, thus making my
> favored experience worse than it is today. I’m fairly happy with using a
> gmail account and server-side filters to file my swift-evolution mails into
> a mailbox that I can then read on or offline with the threaded email client
> of my choice.
>
>
> This is my feeling as well. I also looked at the so-called “native app”
> for Discourse and it looked like just a wrapper around the web site. It
> wasn’t nearly the level of experience that I get from a high quality mail
> client like Mail.app or GMail.
>
> I would be all for a forum-like web interface to the mailing list for
> people who find mailing lists somehow lacking or who have difficulty
> configuring filters. However, I would be opposed in the strongest possible
> terms to anything that makes the mailing list interface any sort of
> second-class citizen, which is definitely what it appears switching to
> something like Discourse would do.
>
>
> With regard to threading:
>
> I’d encourage those who want web forums to give Mail.app a try. It does a
> remarkable job of keeping emails threaded. (incidentally, I’ve tried a few
> 3rd party email clients, the usual suspects with both iOS and macOS
> support, and find them *worse* at handling mailing list style email
> chains). There’s even more flexibility in the reading experience with
> things like Mutt where everything is customizable.
>
> Overall, I feel like the maturity of email tooling is not emphasized
> enough here.
>
>   -- Chris
>   -- who would also be opposed to using something like HipChat/Slack over
> IRC
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
> ___
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> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 6, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
> 
> Agree strongly.
> 
> It is true, however, that a major pain point of the mailing list format is 
> that it is not apparent how to join an ongoing thread unless you are already 
> subscribed to the list. Thus, an occasional contributor must choose between 
> subscribing and setting up dedicated filters for Swift mailing lists or be 
> content only to initiate new conversations. If we could only overcome that 
> issue, it'd be a huge step forward.

Subscribing and only-occasionally reading/sending is not mutually exclusive 
though. One only needs to filter emails from a list to a folder. Most email 
provider/client combos handle this nicely. Once subscribed, one can 
retroactively participate any thread. As for threads pre-subscription, I don’t 
mind starting a new thread (note this happens in forums for other reasons, too).

(I can see an O’Rly book titled “Advanced Mailing List” in my mind right now ).

> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 17:24 Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
>> On Feb 6, 2017, at 3:02 PM, Chris Hanson via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:24 PM, James Berry via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Speaking for myself only, discourse seems to give me little of value, while 
>>> it would plaster emails with html-laden buttons, etc, thus making my 
>>> favored experience worse than it is today. I’m fairly happy with using a 
>>> gmail account and server-side filters to file my swift-evolution mails into 
>>> a mailbox that I can then read on or offline with the threaded email client 
>>> of my choice.
>> 
>> This is my feeling as well. I also looked at the so-called “native app” for 
>> Discourse and it looked like just a wrapper around the web site. It wasn’t 
>> nearly the level of experience that I get from a high quality mail client 
>> like Mail.app or GMail.
>> 
>> I would be all for a forum-like web interface to the mailing list for people 
>> who find mailing lists somehow lacking or who have difficulty configuring 
>> filters. However, I would be opposed in the strongest possible terms to 
>> anything that makes the mailing list interface any sort of second-class 
>> citizen, which is definitely what it appears switching to something like 
>> Discourse would do.
>> 
> 
> With regard to threading:
> 
> I’d encourage those who want web forums to give Mail.app a try. It does a 
> remarkable job of keeping emails threaded. (incidentally, I’ve tried a few 
> 3rd party email clients, the usual suspects with both iOS and macOS support, 
> and find them *worse* at handling mailing list style email chains). There’s 
> even more flexibility in the reading experience with things like Mutt where 
> everything is customizable. 
> 
> Overall, I feel like the maturity of email tooling is not emphasized enough 
> here.
> 
>>   -- Chris
>>   -- who would also be opposed to using something like HipChat/Slack over IRC
>> 
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
>> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org 
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
> 

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution]

Agree strongly.

It is true, however, that a major pain point of the mailing list format is
that it is not apparent how to join an ongoing thread unless you are
already subscribed to the list. Thus, an occasional contributor must choose
between subscribing and setting up dedicated filters for Swift mailing
lists or be content only to initiate new conversations. If we could only
overcome that issue, it'd be a huge step forward.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 17:24 Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> On Feb 6, 2017, at 3:02 PM, Chris Hanson via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:24 PM, James Berry via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
> Speaking for myself only, discourse seems to give me little of value,
> while it would plaster emails with html-laden buttons, etc, thus making my
> favored experience worse than it is today. I’m fairly happy with using a
> gmail account and server-side filters to file my swift-evolution mails into
> a mailbox that I can then read on or offline with the threaded email client
> of my choice.
>
>
> This is my feeling as well. I also looked at the so-called “native app”
> for Discourse and it looked like just a wrapper around the web site. It
> wasn’t nearly the level of experience that I get from a high quality mail
> client like Mail.app or GMail.
>
> I would be all for a forum-like web interface to the mailing list for
> people who find mailing lists somehow lacking or who have difficulty
> configuring filters. However, I would be opposed in the strongest possible
> terms to anything that makes the mailing list interface any sort of
> second-class citizen, which is definitely what it appears switching to
> something like Discourse would do.
>
>
> With regard to threading:
>
> I’d encourage those who want web forums to give Mail.app a try. It does a
> remarkable job of keeping emails threaded. (incidentally, I’ve tried a few
> 3rd party email clients, the usual suspects with both iOS and macOS
> support, and find them *worse* at handling mailing list style email
> chains). There’s even more flexibility in the reading experience with
> things like Mutt where everything is customizable.
>
> Overall, I feel like the maturity of email tooling is not emphasized
> enough here.
>
>   -- Chris
>   -- who would also be opposed to using something like HipChat/Slack over
> IRC
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
> ___
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> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 6, 2017, at 3:02 PM, Chris Hanson via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:24 PM, James Berry via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
>> 
>> Speaking for myself only, discourse seems to give me little of value, while 
>> it would plaster emails with html-laden buttons, etc, thus making my favored 
>> experience worse than it is today. I’m fairly happy with using a gmail 
>> account and server-side filters to file my swift-evolution mails into a 
>> mailbox that I can then read on or offline with the threaded email client of 
>> my choice.
> 
> This is my feeling as well. I also looked at the so-called “native app” for 
> Discourse and it looked like just a wrapper around the web site. It wasn’t 
> nearly the level of experience that I get from a high quality mail client 
> like Mail.app or GMail.
> 
> I would be all for a forum-like web interface to the mailing list for people 
> who find mailing lists somehow lacking or who have difficulty configuring 
> filters. However, I would be opposed in the strongest possible terms to 
> anything that makes the mailing list interface any sort of second-class 
> citizen, which is definitely what it appears switching to something like 
> Discourse would do.
> 

With regard to threading:

I’d encourage those who want web forums to give Mail.app a try. It does a 
remarkable job of keeping emails threaded. (incidentally, I’ve tried a few 3rd 
party email clients, the usual suspects with both iOS and macOS support, and 
find them *worse* at handling mailing list style email chains). There’s even 
more flexibility in the reading experience with things like Mutt where 
everything is customizable. 

Overall, I feel like the maturity of email tooling is not emphasized enough 
here.

>   -- Chris
>   -- who would also be opposed to using something like HipChat/Slack over IRC
> 
> ___
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> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Chris Hanson via swift-evolution]

On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:24 PM, James Berry via swift-evolution 
 wrote:
> 
> Speaking for myself only, discourse seems to give me little of value, while 
> it would plaster emails with html-laden buttons, etc, thus making my favored 
> experience worse than it is today. I’m fairly happy with using a gmail 
> account and server-side filters to file my swift-evolution mails into a 
> mailbox that I can then read on or offline with the threaded email client of 
> my choice.

This is my feeling as well. I also looked at the so-called “native app” for 
Discourse and it looked like just a wrapper around the web site. It wasn’t 
nearly the level of experience that I get from a high quality mail client like 
Mail.app or GMail.

I would be all for a forum-like web interface to the mailing list for people 
who find mailing lists somehow lacking or who have difficulty configuring 
filters. However, I would be opposed in the strongest possible terms to 
anything that makes the mailing list interface any sort of second-class 
citizen, which is definitely what it appears switching to something like 
Discourse would do.

  -- Chris
  -- who would also be opposed to using something like HipChat/Slack over IRC

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution]

I notice Discourse doesn't display indentation in the HTML archives of
plain text messages, which is a major loss for any forum that discusses
code. :-(

-- 
-Dave

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Milos Jakovljevic via swift-evolution]

+1 
Its really hard to keep track of mails and threads.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 23, 2017, at 18:59, Joshua Alvarado via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> It will be painted! ;)
> 
> So far we have:
> +2 Disclosure 
> +1 Slack
> +1 Issue tracker
> 
> Let's really get everyone's opinions and see if we can get this rock rolling 
> towards a better solution. Of course it will be Apple's choice in the end but 
> we can give a voice on the matter to show we do care about moving over. 
> 
> Alvarado, Joshua
> 
>> On Jan 23, 2017, at 10:55 AM, David Waite  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> As long as we are pretending this bike shed is getting painted again…
>> 
>> I would actually prefer something closer to an issue tracker than discourse. 
>> We get a lot of repeat and diverging topics, and it would be nice to mark 
>> discussions as related, duplicates, etc
>> 
>> -DW
>> 
>>> On Jan 23, 2017, at 9:22 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> +1 for Discourse. Cannot wait any longer for this to happen.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Adrian Zubarev
>>> Sent with Airmail
>>> 
>>> Am 23. Januar 2017 um 17:18:42, Joshua Alvarado via swift-evolution 
>>> (swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:
>>> 
 Hey swifters,
   I would like to (re)open up discussion on moving away from email for the 
 swift evolution mailing list. I know this has probably been discussed 
 before but it really should be addressed again. I wouldn't even know how 
 to find if it has been discussed before because it would be too hard to go 
 back through the history. 
 
 The main factors to move away from email is because email may deter 
 newcomers, history, and threads. I may be speaking for myself when saying 
 email may intimidate newcomers from expressing their opinions and 
 thoughts. It is hard to know what has already been discussed and who is 
 even in the active conversation. Keeping track of history is a pain as 
 well. Searching through many emails to find who said what and when is not 
 effective in email clients. Also, code formatting in emails is not 
 effective. Let's discuss and actually make an action to move away from 
 email if the community so agrees. Of course, recommendations are Slack, 
 Hipchat (-1), and Gitter.
 
 --
 Joshua Alvarado
 alvaradojosh...@gmail.com
 ___
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 swift-evolution@swift.org
 https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>> 
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Maxim Veksler via swift-evolution]

I'm coming around to the idea of discourse, mainly because that would allow
providing a consistent display of the discussion and not having every
subscriber reinvent the way he wants to see threaded discussion, quotations
and code samples. As discourse supports mailing list mode, which would
allow keeping the discussion via email but also having an "authoritative"
source where you can always hop to and get a view on everything that is
going on I think that it becomes an additive win for the community.

On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 9:46 PM Derrick Ho via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I agree with you on point number two. There is way too much scrolling. Im
> viewing it on mobile so that's even more scrolling. Discourse allows
> jumping to the next topic so if I don't want to scroll I can jump to the
> next topic.
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 2:36 PM Cihat Gündüz via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> After trying out Nate Cook’s Discourse test server
>  I’d like to add a few things on my
> previous message:
>
> #1 I found the beginning of this threads discussion
>  
> without
> any problems (both from navigating through the threads structure and from
> the search feature) which was interesting for me, as I couldn’t do that in
> my mail client given that I opted in to the mailing list later on.
> Especially the fact that at the beginning Discourse wasn’t even suggested
> of the original post was interesting. I wouldn’t have known that without
> the Discourse test server.
>
> #2 Following a discussion is much easier in general, but I noticed one
> downside (I guess that’s one of the hurdles to be addressed): Some quotes
> within emails were imported to threads in a way that makes reading actually
> much worse. See this thread
>  as an example.
> The initial messages is repeated over and over again, and since it’s very
> long scrolling all the time is really annoying here.
>
> #3 I really like the fact that Discourse makes it very simple to get an
> overview of all the current discussion threads. For example, I opened the 
> Swift
> Evolution  category and
> could see immediately all threads that I’m aware of since I saw new
> messages coming in my inbox – but many more, that I wasn’t aware of where
> discussion seem to have cooled down for a while. That’s really convenient!
>
> Mostly following the discussion is much simpler on Discourse, so my
> previous claim that it would solve all my problems seem to be true. I’d
> really like to see this getting to Discourse. Then I would even be able to
> send my fellow Swift developers links to discussions and they would
> actually read them – this would improve the quality of our internal best
> practice discussions a lot.
>
> --
> Cihat
>
> Am 4. Februar 2017 um 16:13:32, Ben Rimmington via swift-evolution (
> swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:
>
>
> > On 26 Jan 2017, at 18:02, Nate Cook wrote:
> >
> >> On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor wrote:
> >>
> >> I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One
> *specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take
> a look at Discourse’s import scripts and try importing swift-evolution’s
> mailing archives with them. We absolutely do not want to lose history when
> we switch technologies. Do the messages import well? Are threading and
> topics maintained in a reasonable manner? Does Discourse provide effective
> UI for looking into past discussions on some specific topic we’re
> interested in?
> >
> > ✋
> >
> > I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem
> dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the
> results of an import (using one or two day old data) at this address:
> > http://discourse.natecook.com/
>
> Discourse doesn't properly import names with an acute accent:
>
> 
> 
>
> I'm not sure why "=?utf-8?Q?F=C3=A9lix_Cloutier?=" isn't automatically
> decoded by the Mail library:
>
> <
> https://github.com/discourse/discourse/blob/f1e7bca3c92ea57f69e6ebb19f7fc75f188ab953/script/import_scripts/mbox.rb#L202-L205
> >
> <
> https://github.com/mikel/mail/blob/5d9e3441b3efdee4c283093ab2872d017258b62d/lib/mail/fields/common/common_address.rb#L43-L47
> >
> <
> https://github.com/mikel/mail/blob/5d9e3441b3efdee4c283093ab2872d017258b62d/lib/mail/elements/address.rb#L80-L88
> >
> <
> https://github.com/mikel/mail/blob/5d9e3441b3efdee4c283093ab2872d017258b62d/lib/mail/encodings.rb#L99-L118
> >
>
> -- Ben
>
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>
> 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Cihat Gündüz via swift-evolution]

After trying out Nate Cook’s Discourse test server I’d like to add a few things 
on my previous message:

#1 I found the beginning of this threads discussion without any problems (both 
from navigating through the threads structure and from the search feature) 
which was interesting for me, as I couldn’t do that in my mail client given 
that I opted in to the mailing list later on. Especially the fact that at the 
beginning Discourse wasn’t even suggested of the original post was interesting. 
I wouldn’t have known that without the Discourse test server.

#2 Following a discussion is much easier in general, but I noticed one downside 
(I guess that’s one of the hurdles to be addressed): Some quotes within emails 
were imported to threads in a way that makes reading actually much worse. See 
this thread as an example. The initial messages is repeated over and over 
again, and since it’s very long scrolling all the time is really annoying here.

#3 I really like the fact that Discourse makes it very simple to get an 
overview of all the current discussion threads. For example, I opened the Swift 
Evolution category and could see immediately all threads that I’m aware of 
since I saw new messages coming in my inbox – but many more, that I wasn’t 
aware of where discussion seem to have cooled down for a while. That’s really 
convenient!

Mostly following the discussion is much simpler on Discourse, so my previous 
claim that it would solve all my problems seem to be true. I’d really like to 
see this getting to Discourse. Then I would even be able to send my fellow 
Swift developers links to discussions and they would actually read them – this 
would improve the quality of our internal best practice discussions a lot.

-- 
Cihat

Am 4. Februar 2017 um 16:13:32, Ben Rimmington via swift-evolution 
(swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:


> On 26 Jan 2017, at 18:02, Nate Cook wrote:
>  
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor wrote:
>>  
>> I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One 
>> *specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take a 
>> look at Discourse’s import scripts and try importing swift-evolution’s 
>> mailing archives with them. We absolutely do not want to lose history when 
>> we switch technologies. Do the messages import well? Are threading and 
>> topics maintained in a reasonable manner? Does Discourse provide effective 
>> UI for looking into past discussions on some specific topic we’re interested 
>> in?
>  
> ✋
>  
> I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem dependencies, 
> and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the results of an 
> import (using one or two day old data) at this address:
> http://discourse.natecook.com/

Discourse doesn't properly import names with an acute accent:




I'm not sure why "=?utf-8?Q?F=C3=A9lix_Cloutier?=" isn't automatically decoded 
by the Mail library:






-- Ben

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Ben Rimmington via swift-evolution]

> On 26 Jan 2017, at 18:02, Nate Cook wrote:
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One 
>> *specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take a 
>> look at Discourse’s import scripts and try importing swift-evolution’s 
>> mailing archives with them. We absolutely do not want to lose history when 
>> we switch technologies. Do the messages import well? Are threading and 
>> topics maintained in a reasonable manner? Does Discourse provide effective 
>> UI for looking into past discussions on some specific topic we’re interested 
>> in?
> 
> ✋
> 
> I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem dependencies, 
> and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the results of an 
> import (using one or two day old data) at this address:
>   http://discourse.natecook.com/

Discourse doesn't properly import names with an acute accent:




I'm not sure why "=?utf-8?Q?F=C3=A9lix_Cloutier?=" isn't automatically decoded 
by the Mail library:






-- Ben

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jeremy Pereira via swift-evolution]

I’m not a fan of moving to a forum or equivalent, however, I’m coming round to 
the idea. I’d be fine with it as long as the following features were included:

* configurable so that I am emailed all new topics and new posts (or RSS 
equivalent)

* Support for markdown, ideally the GitHub dialect

* moderation for off topic posts and spam

From my brief scan of their web site, Discourse seems to fit the bill but it 
does talk about threads being a single dynamically loaded page rather than 
multiple pages. How well does that work when a thread has a thousand posts in 
it?
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

One feature is I need the ability to bookmark where I stop reading
during the journey or trip.

A few contributors keep replying with quoted message ate up my mobile data
usage significantly especially this thread is getting a long discussion is
hard to read on a small screen and I don't use email clients on iPhone.

Forum is useful when we need share photos and video.


On Friday, February 3, 2017, Muse M  wrote:

> One feature is I need the ability to bookmark where I stop reading
> during the journey or trip.
>
> A few contributors keep replying with quoted message ate up my mobile data
> usage significantly especially this thread is getting a long discussion is
> hard to read on a small screen and I don't use email clients on iPhone.
>
> Forum is useful when we need share photos and video.
>
> On Friday, February 3, 2017, Tino Heth via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> In a mailing list format, everyone is free to start a new thread.
>>
>> Would a forum have a privilege system that stops newbies from starting
>> threads? I've seen no one proposing that.
>>
>>
>> Whether you invented the language or started learning it yesterday, if
>> you have a new idea, it comes into everyone's inbox in exactly the same
>> way. No one's user name has extra flares or trophies or whatever reminding
>> you of their status.
>>
>>
>> Imho that's just wrong, and this message somewhat proves my point:
>> There are several users with a "@apple.com" trophy, and I guess most
>> people who spend a significant amount of time on swift-evolution also have
>> developed a preference not only for topics, but also for authors (saving
>> matching posts from being ignored).
>>
>> The ability to "like" posts would be a remarkable help for newbies to
>> gather attention for their ideas — not because of the status of the author,
>> but because of the quality of their contribution.
>>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Tino Heth via swift-evolution]

> In a mailing list format, everyone is free to start a new thread.
Would a forum have a privilege system that stops newbies from starting threads? 
I've seen no one proposing that.


> Whether you invented the language or started learning it yesterday, if you 
> have a new idea, it comes into everyone's inbox in exactly the same way. No 
> one's user name has extra flares or trophies or whatever reminding you of 
> their status.

Imho that's just wrong, and this message somewhat proves my point:
There are several users with a "@apple.com" trophy, and I guess most people who 
spend a significant amount of time on swift-evolution also have developed a 
preference not only for topics, but also for authors (saving matching posts 
from being ignored).

The ability to "like" posts would be a remarkable help for newbies to gather 
attention for their ideas — not because of the status of the author, but 
because of the quality of their contribution.___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Ted kremenek via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 9:56 PM, Erica Sadun  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 10:29 PM, Ted kremenek  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 6:36 PM, Karl Wagner  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
 On 3 Feb 2017, at 02:55, Ted kremenek  wrote:
 
 
 
> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Personally I think that's an absurd reason not to move to a forum. What 
> is your complaint? That it's _too_ inclusive? That others only have 
> trivial things to say? Frankly, every way I try to interpret your comment 
> makes it come off as snobbery.
 
 Hi Karl,
 
 I appreciate your candor here, but let's avoid making these comments sound 
 personal.  This is a thread prompting polarized opinions, and most of it 
 has been civil and productive.  Let's keep it that way.  I do respect that 
 you are anxious to see progress on the resolution of the topic, but these 
 same points could be made in a less antagonistic way.
 
 I encourage all of you to re-read this part of the Code of Conduction on 
 Swift.org:
 
> Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:
> 
> The use of sexualized language or imagery
> Personal attacks
> Trolling or insulting/derogatory comments
> Public or private harassment
> Publishing other’s private information, such as physical or electronic 
> addresses, without explicit permission
> Other unethical or unprofessional conduct
> Project maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or 
> reject comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other 
> contributions that are not aligned to this Code of Conduct, or to ban 
> temporarily or permanently any contributor for other behaviors that they 
> deem inappropriate, threatening, offensive, or harmful.
> 
 Thank you,
 Ted
 
>>> 
>>> As I explained to Erica, it isn’t meant to be read personally. What I said 
>>> is that the community should be as inclusive as possible and that 
>>> prejudicing certain opinions as “trivial” conceptually runs against that.
>> 
>> I appreciate that perspective — and I personally agree with that point.  My 
>> cautionary statement — which was also directed at others on the thread — was 
>> to ensure that the thread remains amicable, and that our choice of our words 
>> match our intentions as the arguments become potentially polarized.
> 
> "Trivial" describes the briefness of the response and  *not* the quality of 
> opinions. Quick back and forth comments that fit well on forums can produce 
> an explosion of emails. Moving to a forum that supports email mirroring does 
> not produce the same experience for those using mail clients. 
> 
> -- E

I agree with you that moving to a forum that supports email mirroring will not 
produce the same experience for those using mail clients.  The question to me 
is not whether they are different, but what impact that difference will have in 
practice — and whether that difference, even if it is slightly negative, is the 
right tradeoff.  Some of that is hard to predict, as it comes down somewhat to 
how participation on a swift-evolution forum would be in practice.___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Erica Sadun via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 10:29 PM, Ted kremenek  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 2, 2017, at 6:36 PM, Karl Wagner  > wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On 3 Feb 2017, at 02:55, Ted kremenek >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
 Personally I think that's an absurd reason not to move to a forum. What is 
 your complaint? That it's _too_ inclusive? That others only have trivial 
 things to say? Frankly, every way I try to interpret your comment makes it 
 come off as snobbery.
>>> 
>>> Hi Karl,
>>> 
>>> I appreciate your candor here, but let's avoid making these comments sound 
>>> personal.  This is a thread prompting polarized opinions, and most of it 
>>> has been civil and productive.  Let's keep it that way.  I do respect that 
>>> you are anxious to see progress on the resolution of the topic, but these 
>>> same points could be made in a less antagonistic way.
>>> 
>>> I encourage all of you to re-read this part of the Code of Conduction on 
>>> Swift.org :
>>> 
 Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:
 
 The use of sexualized language or imagery
 Personal attacks
 Trolling or insulting/derogatory comments
 Public or private harassment
 Publishing other’s private information, such as physical or electronic 
 addresses, without explicit permission
 Other unethical or unprofessional conduct
 Project maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or 
 reject comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other 
 contributions that are not aligned to this Code of Conduct, or to ban 
 temporarily or permanently any contributor for other behaviors that they 
 deem inappropriate, threatening, offensive, or harmful.
 
>>> Thank you,
>>> Ted
>>> 
>> 
>> As I explained to Erica, it isn’t meant to be read personally. What I said 
>> is that the community should be as inclusive as possible and that 
>> prejudicing certain opinions as “trivial” conceptually runs against that.
> 
> I appreciate that perspective — and I personally agree with that point.  My 
> cautionary statement — which was also directed at others on the thread — was 
> to ensure that the thread remains amicable, and that our choice of our words 
> match our intentions as the arguments become potentially polarized.

"Trivial" describes the briefness of the response and  *not* the quality of 
opinions. Quick back and forth comments that fit well on forums can produce an 
explosion of emails. Moving to a forum that supports email mirroring does not 
produce the same experience for those using mail clients. 

-- E


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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Ted kremenek via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 7:23 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
> 
> Great, but let's continue discussing what the needs and aspirations of the 
> community are and what our non-goals are, then study what platforms best fit 
> those. It sure sounds nice that Discourse can be set up as a mailing list, 
> and that it can have extra voting dingbats or none at all, etc., etc. But in 
> deciding what platform we should use it helps not to lose sight of what kind 
> of a community we want to promote. Articulate those and gain some consensus, 
> and after that the process of comparing product feature lists will surely be 
> the easy part.

I agree — which should pick the tool that matches with community we want to 
promote.

For me I feel that swift-evolution has an established ethos that works well, 
and I would not want to see that go away in a forum.  My hope is a forum allows 
more people to sporadically participate on topics that are of interest to them. 
 I also feel that a forum provides some standard affordances — e.g., Markdown — 
that can be helpful in technical discussions.

Here are the factors I am evaluating:

1. Preserves/encourages the community discussions we want — which ties in with 
the points you made about the nature of the community we want.

2. Make discussions more accessible to members of the community who want to use 
their valuable time to participate in discussions that are important to them, 
but not necessarily need to pay a high cost in participating in all discussions.

3. Ideally not degrade the experience for those participating on 
swift-evolution all the time and are monitoring all (or the majority) of 
traffic.  This is the main concern from people who like the mailing lists.

4. Affordances for searching through topics, cross-referencing, etc.  This is 
very useful for relating similar but disjoint topics.

5. Better tools for authoring content, such as using Markdown (especially for 
writing out code).

6. Privacy — not everyone wants to share their email or create a new one just 
to participate not he evolution threads.  This ties in with #2.

The other thing — which has not been discussed very much — is whether or not if 
we move to a forum to move ALL of the lists to a forum, or just 
swift-evolution.  My preference if we moved to forums would be to go all in, 
but discussion should happen on those lists as well (e.g., swift-dev).


>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 20:59 Jacob Bandes-Storch  wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:37 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 5:35 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's at least worth a beta test.
>> 
>> There are real concerns to work out here — just moving to the forum blindly 
>> would be bad if it is highly disruptive to the community having important 
>> discussions.  I DO think a forum is likely the way to go, but I also am not 
>> dismissive that individuals who are highly active on swift-evolution that 
>> prefer an email workflow will not have their own participation significantly 
>> compromised by just moving to a forum in a cavalier way.
>> 
>> What I have enjoyed seeing from this thread is a healthy discussion about 
>> tradeoffs of both approaches and an identification of concerns of moving 
>> away from the mailing lists.  Some responses to those concerns have been 
>> "Discourse can handle that", which to me is part of the evaluation of the 
>> tradeoffs.  I am also really happy that Nate setup the mock Discourse setup 
>> so we could evaluate thing like the email bridge.  For example, 
>> experimenting of whether or not a rich HTML email works versus plain text 
>> emails for inline responses (which turns out to have problems), etc.   
>> That's all super useful for actually evaluating moving to Discourse, so in 
>> my mind we are actually trying things out and identifying problem points.
>> 
>> The other thing I'm considering is the practical logistics of getting this 
>> set up and maintained (from an infrastructure perspective).  That's not 
>> something that needs to be discussed on this thread — I'd rather the thread 
>> focus on whether a forum is the right thing for the community.  But it is 
>> still something that is being considered in tandem to this discussion, which 
>> obviously needs to be figured out before we just jump to using Discourse (if 
>> that is what we end up doing).
>> 
>> On the topic of whether a forum is the right thing for the community, I 
>> figure I should throw another point into the conversation. Forums are often 
>> designed around a rewards system to encourage participation in approved 
>> ways, and to encourage it frequently. People who write popular posts get 
>> more likes, or stars, or dingbats, and voting is encouraged from the 
>> 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Ted kremenek via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 6:37 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 5:35 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's at least worth a beta test.
>> 
>> There are real concerns to work out here — just moving to the forum blindly 
>> would be bad if it is highly disruptive to the community having important 
>> discussions.  I DO think a forum is likely the way to go, but I also am not 
>> dismissive that individuals who are highly active on swift-evolution that 
>> prefer an email workflow will not have their own participation significantly 
>> compromised by just moving to a forum in a cavalier way.
>> 
>> What I have enjoyed seeing from this thread is a healthy discussion about 
>> tradeoffs of both approaches and an identification of concerns of moving 
>> away from the mailing lists.  Some responses to those concerns have been 
>> "Discourse can handle that", which to me is part of the evaluation of the 
>> tradeoffs.  I am also really happy that Nate setup the mock Discourse setup 
>> so we could evaluate thing like the email bridge.  For example, 
>> experimenting of whether or not a rich HTML email works versus plain text 
>> emails for inline responses (which turns out to have problems), etc.   
>> That's all super useful for actually evaluating moving to Discourse, so in 
>> my mind we are actually trying things out and identifying problem points.
>> 
>> The other thing I'm considering is the practical logistics of getting this 
>> set up and maintained (from an infrastructure perspective).  That's not 
>> something that needs to be discussed on this thread — I'd rather the thread 
>> focus on whether a forum is the right thing for the community.  But it is 
>> still something that is being considered in tandem to this discussion, which 
>> obviously needs to be figured out before we just jump to using Discourse (if 
>> that is what we end up doing).
> 
> On the topic of whether a forum is the right thing for the community, I 
> figure I should throw another point into the conversation. Forums are often 
> designed around a rewards system to encourage participation in approved ways, 
> and to encourage it frequently. People who write popular posts get more 
> likes, or stars, or dingbats, and voting is encouraged from the community to 
> surface the most liked/starred/dingbatted. Just earlier in this thread, there 
> were explicit calls for any adopted platform to have liking/unliking features.
> 
> In a mailing list format, everyone is free to start a new thread. Whether you 
> invented the language or started learning it yesterday, if you have a new 
> idea, it comes into everyone's inbox in exactly the same way. No one's user 
> name has extra flares or trophies or whatever reminding you of their status. 
> Yes, it's true that there have been a proliferation of +1's lately. It is 
> also true that not too long ago community members reminded each other not to 
> do that. The mantra, if I recall, was that it wasn't about soliciting upvotes 
> or downvotes, but rather about posting thoughtful critiques, new takes on the 
> the idea, alternative designs, etc.
> 
> So I guess I'd sum up the point as this: in the current setup, everyone's 
> message is treated equally (unless it exceeds the max email size limit, ugh); 
> in a forum, everyone's likes are treated equally. Are we unsatisfied with the 
> current community ethos? Do we want the evolution process to be about what 
> ideas garnered the most votes and whose thoughts are most popular?

These are really interesting points.  From my perspective, I'm not quite so 
concerned about this because of how I have witnessed the evolution process 
working in practice.  Everyone's message is not treated equally — instead they 
are evaluated based on the quality of their substance.  When arguments for or 
against evolution proposals get evaluated — and eventually arbitrated into a 
decision — it is rarely a strict popularity contest for an idea, but rather a 
balancing of the arguments made.  Essentially your comment about "thoughtful 
critiques", which ultimately I think provides the most meaningful guidance 
towards reaching decisions on language changes.  That's not to say that a ton 
of +1's on an argument doesn't have signal — but I'd never like to see that 
become a direct "vote".







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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Ted kremenek via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 6:36 PM, Karl Wagner  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 3 Feb 2017, at 02:55, Ted kremenek  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Personally I think that's an absurd reason not to move to a forum. What is 
>>> your complaint? That it's _too_ inclusive? That others only have trivial 
>>> things to say? Frankly, every way I try to interpret your comment makes it 
>>> come off as snobbery.
>> 
>> Hi Karl,
>> 
>> I appreciate your candor here, but let's avoid making these comments sound 
>> personal.  This is a thread prompting polarized opinions, and most of it has 
>> been civil and productive.  Let's keep it that way.  I do respect that you 
>> are anxious to see progress on the resolution of the topic, but these same 
>> points could be made in a less antagonistic way.
>> 
>> I encourage all of you to re-read this part of the Code of Conduction on 
>> Swift.org:
>> 
>>> Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:
>>> 
>>> The use of sexualized language or imagery
>>> Personal attacks
>>> Trolling or insulting/derogatory comments
>>> Public or private harassment
>>> Publishing other’s private information, such as physical or electronic 
>>> addresses, without explicit permission
>>> Other unethical or unprofessional conduct
>>> Project maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or 
>>> reject comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other contributions 
>>> that are not aligned to this Code of Conduct, or to ban temporarily or 
>>> permanently any contributor for other behaviors that they deem 
>>> inappropriate, threatening, offensive, or harmful.
>>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Ted
>> 
> 
> As I explained to Erica, it isn’t meant to be read personally. What I said is 
> that the community should be as inclusive as possible and that prejudicing 
> certain opinions as “trivial” conceptually runs against that.

I appreciate that perspective — and I personally agree with that point.  My 
cautionary statement — which was also directed at others on the thread — was to 
ensure that the thread remains amicable, and that our choice of our words match 
our intentions as the arguments become potentially polarized.

> 
> That’s also my reply to the opinion others have shared that subscribing and 
> publishing your email address is a kind of “good pain” to filter out the 
> weak. Take the String model for example - isn’t it possible that this one 
> particular discussion is critical to my business, and that I don’t really 
> care about “for-else syntax” or “Annotation of Warnings/Errors” or “Compound 
> Names for Enum Cases”? I don’t see the logic which says that if I care very 
> much about one aspect of the language, I must care equally about everything 
> else that ever changes with it.

I agree with this point, and I'll be honest that I am not concerned about the 
forums being flooded with noise just because we removed friction for more 
people to participate.  The swift-evolution participants have established a 
timbre for its discussions already that I don't see fundamentally changing if 
we move to a forum.

> 
> I don’t understand why some feel it is so important to discourage ad-hoc 
> contributions. Open-source lives off ad-hoc.

For me, removing some of the friction for participation is one of the most 
appealing aspects of a forum.

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Zach Drayer via swift-evolution]

hi

sorry about this message just now, i realize the tone comes across a bit short 
to say the least. buttons were mashed incorrectly and far too soon.

again, my apologies.

-z

(sent from my phone) 

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 8:12 PM, Zach Drayer  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (sent from my phone)
> 
>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 3:15 PM, James Berry via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:44 PM, Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Where do you propose to hold and publicize such a vote in order that the 
>>> people who would participate on a forum but not on a mailing list―ie. those 
>>> for whom the switch will be most beneficial―are enfranchised?
>> 
>> The traditional method on a list like this is +1 or -1 in response to a 
>> given thread. (Note that I’m not calling for such a vote, as I have nothing 
>> to propose). A perhaps more modern approach would be to give a link to an 
>> external site that would run the vote/poll.
>> 
>> As to your question of how to reach an audience larger than what we have now 
>> for a vote, I don’t see any obvious solution: the current community is what 
>> it is. And I would argue that the current community has invested the most 
>> time into the project (and likely will going forward) and should have the 
>> largest vote for how project communication should be facilitated.
> I don't know if the idea that knowing how to use/being comfortable with using 
> a mailing list somehow means your input more valuable than that of someone 
> else is one that I'm comfortable with.
> 
>> I wouldn’t advocate for advertising far and wide over the internet “how 
>> should the swift-evolution community communicate?”, as this would be a vote 
>> of the internet, and not of the swift-evolution community.
> The entire purpose of this discussion is about how best to open 
> swift-evolution up to more people. Why would we ignore input from people who 
> may otherwise be involved?
> 
> 
>> I do admit you could argue the community may have already self-selected to 
>> some degree based on the current method of commutation; I see no real 
>> solution to that apart from continued advocacy from people such as you who 
>> are speaking up to bring awareness about the issues you feel are keeping 
>> outsiders from participating.
> We could try asking people in some non-mailing-list fashion?
> 
> -z
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Zach Drayer via swift-evolution]

(sent from my phone)

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 3:15 PM, James Berry via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:44 PM, Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Where do you propose to hold and publicize such a vote in order that the 
>> people who would participate on a forum but not on a mailing list―ie. those 
>> for whom the switch will be most beneficial―are enfranchised?
> 
> The traditional method on a list like this is +1 or -1 in response to a given 
> thread. (Note that I’m not calling for such a vote, as I have nothing to 
> propose). A perhaps more modern approach would be to give a link to an 
> external site that would run the vote/poll.
> 
> As to your question of how to reach an audience larger than what we have now 
> for a vote, I don’t see any obvious solution: the current community is what 
> it is. And I would argue that the current community has invested the most 
> time into the project (and likely will going forward) and should have the 
> largest vote for how project communication should be facilitated.
I don't know if the idea that knowing how to use/being comfortable with using a 
mailing list somehow means your input more valuable than that of someone else 
is one that I'm comfortable with.

> I wouldn’t advocate for advertising far and wide over the internet “how 
> should the swift-evolution community communicate?”, as this would be a vote 
> of the internet, and not of the swift-evolution community.
The entire purpose of this discussion is about how best to open swift-evolution 
up to more people. Why would we ignore input from people who may otherwise be 
involved?


> I do admit you could argue the community may have already self-selected to 
> some degree based on the current method of commutation; I see no real 
> solution to that apart from continued advocacy from people such as you who 
> are speaking up to bring awareness about the issues you feel are keeping 
> outsiders from participating.
We could try asking people in some non-mailing-list fashion?

-z___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution]

Great, but let's continue discussing what the needs and aspirations of the
community are and what our non-goals are, then study what platforms best
fit those. It sure sounds nice that Discourse can be set up as a mailing
list, and that it can have extra voting dingbats or none at all, etc., etc.
But in deciding what platform we should use it helps not to lose sight of
what kind of a community we want to promote. Articulate those and gain some
consensus, and after that the process of comparing product feature lists
will surely be the easy part.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 20:59 Jacob Bandes-Storch  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:37 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2017, at 5:35 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> It's at least worth a beta test.
>
>
> There are real concerns to work out here — just moving to the forum
> blindly would be bad if it is highly disruptive to the community having
> important discussions.  I DO think a forum is likely the way to go, but I
> also am not dismissive that individuals who are highly active on
> swift-evolution that prefer an email workflow will not have their own
> participation significantly compromised by just moving to a forum in a
> cavalier way.
>
> What I have enjoyed seeing from this thread is a healthy discussion about
> tradeoffs of both approaches and an identification of concerns of moving
> away from the mailing lists.  Some responses to those concerns have been
> "Discourse can handle that", which to me is part of the evaluation of the
> tradeoffs.  I am also really happy that Nate setup the mock Discourse setup
> so we *could* evaluate thing like the email bridge.  For example,
> experimenting of whether or not a rich HTML email works versus plain text
> emails for inline responses (which turns out to have problems), etc.
> That's all super useful for actually evaluating moving to Discourse, so in
> my mind we are actually trying things out and identifying problem points.
>
> The other thing I'm considering is the practical logistics of getting this
> set up and maintained (from an infrastructure perspective).  That's not
> something that needs to be discussed on this thread — I'd rather the thread
> focus on whether a forum is the right thing for the community.  But it is
> still something that is being considered in tandem to this discussion,
> which obviously needs to be figured out before we just jump to using
> Discourse (if that is what we end up doing).
>
>
> On the topic of whether a forum is the right thing for the community, I
> figure I should throw another point into the conversation. Forums are often
> designed around a rewards system to encourage participation in approved
> ways, and to encourage it frequently. People who write popular posts get
> more likes, or stars, or dingbats, and voting is encouraged from the
> community to surface the most liked/starred/dingbatted. Just earlier in
> this thread, there were explicit calls for any adopted platform to have
> liking/unliking features.
>
> In a mailing list format, everyone is free to start a new thread. Whether
> you invented the language or started learning it yesterday, if you have a
> new idea, it comes into everyone's inbox in exactly the same way. No one's
> user name has extra flares or trophies or whatever reminding you of their
> status. Yes, it's true that there have been a proliferation of +1's lately.
> It is also true that not too long ago community members reminded each other
> not to do that. The mantra, if I recall, was that it wasn't about
> soliciting upvotes or downvotes, but rather about posting thoughtful
> critiques, new takes on the the idea, alternative designs, etc.
>
> So I guess I'd sum up the point as this: in the current setup, everyone's
> message is treated equally (unless it exceeds the max email size limit,
> ugh); in a forum, everyone's likes are treated equally. Are we unsatisfied
> with the current community ethos? Do we want the evolution process to be
> about what ideas garnered the most votes and whose thoughts are most
> popular?
>
>
> FWIW, I think this point is moot when it comes to Discourse — the max
> allowed "likes" per day is adjustable, which I believe includes turning it
> to 0 / off. If it's determined to be harmful to "community ethos" the
> admins would be free to disable it.
>
___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:37 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 5:35 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>> It's at least worth a beta test.
>>
>>
>> There are real concerns to work out here — just moving to the forum
>> blindly would be bad if it is highly disruptive to the community having
>> important discussions.  I DO think a forum is likely the way to go, but I
>> also am not dismissive that individuals who are highly active on
>> swift-evolution that prefer an email workflow will not have their own
>> participation significantly compromised by just moving to a forum in a
>> cavalier way.
>>
>> What I have enjoyed seeing from this thread is a healthy discussion about
>> tradeoffs of both approaches and an identification of concerns of moving
>> away from the mailing lists.  Some responses to those concerns have been
>> "Discourse can handle that", which to me is part of the evaluation of the
>> tradeoffs.  I am also really happy that Nate setup the mock Discourse setup
>> so we *could* evaluate thing like the email bridge.  For example,
>> experimenting of whether or not a rich HTML email works versus plain text
>> emails for inline responses (which turns out to have problems), etc.
>> That's all super useful for actually evaluating moving to Discourse, so in
>> my mind we are actually trying things out and identifying problem points.
>>
>> The other thing I'm considering is the practical logistics of getting
>> this set up and maintained (from an infrastructure perspective).  That's
>> not something that needs to be discussed on this thread — I'd rather the
>> thread focus on whether a forum is the right thing for the community.  But
>> it is still something that is being considered in tandem to this
>> discussion, which obviously needs to be figured out before we just jump to
>> using Discourse (if that is what we end up doing).
>>
>
> On the topic of whether a forum is the right thing for the community, I
> figure I should throw another point into the conversation. Forums are often
> designed around a rewards system to encourage participation in approved
> ways, and to encourage it frequently. People who write popular posts get
> more likes, or stars, or dingbats, and voting is encouraged from the
> community to surface the most liked/starred/dingbatted. Just earlier in
> this thread, there were explicit calls for any adopted platform to have
> liking/unliking features.
>
> In a mailing list format, everyone is free to start a new thread. Whether
> you invented the language or started learning it yesterday, if you have a
> new idea, it comes into everyone's inbox in exactly the same way. No one's
> user name has extra flares or trophies or whatever reminding you of their
> status. Yes, it's true that there have been a proliferation of +1's lately.
> It is also true that not too long ago community members reminded each other
> not to do that. The mantra, if I recall, was that it wasn't about
> soliciting upvotes or downvotes, but rather about posting thoughtful
> critiques, new takes on the the idea, alternative designs, etc.
>
> So I guess I'd sum up the point as this: in the current setup, everyone's
> message is treated equally (unless it exceeds the max email size limit,
> ugh); in a forum, everyone's likes are treated equally. Are we unsatisfied
> with the current community ethos? Do we want the evolution process to be
> about what ideas garnered the most votes and whose thoughts are most
> popular?
>

FWIW, I think this point is moot when it comes to Discourse — the max
allowed "likes" per day is adjustable, which I believe includes turning it
to 0 / off. If it's determined to be harmful to "community ethos" the
admins would be free to disable it.
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Feb 2, 2017, at 5:35 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> It's at least worth a beta test.
>
>
> There are real concerns to work out here — just moving to the forum
> blindly would be bad if it is highly disruptive to the community having
> important discussions.  I DO think a forum is likely the way to go, but I
> also am not dismissive that individuals who are highly active on
> swift-evolution that prefer an email workflow will not have their own
> participation significantly compromised by just moving to a forum in a
> cavalier way.
>
> What I have enjoyed seeing from this thread is a healthy discussion about
> tradeoffs of both approaches and an identification of concerns of moving
> away from the mailing lists.  Some responses to those concerns have been
> "Discourse can handle that", which to me is part of the evaluation of the
> tradeoffs.  I am also really happy that Nate setup the mock Discourse setup
> so we *could* evaluate thing like the email bridge.  For example,
> experimenting of whether or not a rich HTML email works versus plain text
> emails for inline responses (which turns out to have problems), etc.
> That's all super useful for actually evaluating moving to Discourse, so in
> my mind we are actually trying things out and identifying problem points.
>
> The other thing I'm considering is the practical logistics of getting this
> set up and maintained (from an infrastructure perspective).  That's not
> something that needs to be discussed on this thread — I'd rather the thread
> focus on whether a forum is the right thing for the community.  But it is
> still something that is being considered in tandem to this discussion,
> which obviously needs to be figured out before we just jump to using
> Discourse (if that is what we end up doing).
>

On the topic of whether a forum is the right thing for the community, I
figure I should throw another point into the conversation. Forums are often
designed around a rewards system to encourage participation in approved
ways, and to encourage it frequently. People who write popular posts get
more likes, or stars, or dingbats, and voting is encouraged from the
community to surface the most liked/starred/dingbatted. Just earlier in
this thread, there were explicit calls for any adopted platform to have
liking/unliking features.

In a mailing list format, everyone is free to start a new thread. Whether
you invented the language or started learning it yesterday, if you have a
new idea, it comes into everyone's inbox in exactly the same way. No one's
user name has extra flares or trophies or whatever reminding you of their
status. Yes, it's true that there have been a proliferation of +1's lately.
It is also true that not too long ago community members reminded each other
not to do that. The mantra, if I recall, was that it wasn't about
soliciting upvotes or downvotes, but rather about posting thoughtful
critiques, new takes on the the idea, alternative designs, etc.

So I guess I'd sum up the point as this: in the current setup, everyone's
message is treated equally (unless it exceeds the max email size limit,
ugh); in a forum, everyone's likes are treated equally. Are we unsatisfied
with the current community ethos? Do we want the evolution process to be
about what ideas garnered the most votes and whose thoughts are most
popular?
___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Karl Wagner via swift-evolution]

> On 3 Feb 2017, at 02:55, Ted kremenek  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> 
>> Personally I think that's an absurd reason not to move to a forum. What is 
>> your complaint? That it's _too_ inclusive? That others only have trivial 
>> things to say? Frankly, every way I try to interpret your comment makes it 
>> come off as snobbery.
> 
> Hi Karl,
> 
> I appreciate your candor here, but let's avoid making these comments sound 
> personal.  This is a thread prompting polarized opinions, and most of it has 
> been civil and productive.  Let's keep it that way.  I do respect that you 
> are anxious to see progress on the resolution of the topic, but these same 
> points could be made in a less antagonistic way.
> 
> I encourage all of you to re-read this part of the Code of Conduction on 
> Swift.org :
> 
>> Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:
>> 
>> The use of sexualized language or imagery
>> Personal attacks
>> Trolling or insulting/derogatory comments
>> Public or private harassment
>> Publishing other’s private information, such as physical or electronic 
>> addresses, without explicit permission
>> Other unethical or unprofessional conduct
>> Project maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or 
>> reject comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other contributions 
>> that are not aligned to this Code of Conduct, or to ban temporarily or 
>> permanently any contributor for other behaviors that they deem 
>> inappropriate, threatening, offensive, or harmful.
>> 
> Thank you,
> Ted
> 

As I explained to Erica, it isn’t meant to be read personally. What I said is 
that the community should be as inclusive as possible and that prejudicing 
certain opinions as “trivial” conceptually runs against that.

That’s also my reply to the opinion others have shared that subscribing and 
publishing your email address is a kind of “good pain” to filter out the weak. 
Take the String model for example - isn’t it possible that this one particular 
discussion is critical to my business, and that I don’t really care about 
“for-else syntax” or “Annotation of Warnings/Errors” or “Compound Names for 
Enum Cases”? I don’t see the logic which says that if I care very much about 
one aspect of the language, I must care equally about everything else that ever 
changes with it.

I don’t understand why some feel it is so important to discourage ad-hoc 
contributions. Open-source lives off ad-hoc.

- Karl

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Ted kremenek via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 5:35 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> It's at least worth a beta test.

There are real concerns to work out here — just moving to the forum blindly 
would be bad if it is highly disruptive to the community having important 
discussions.  I DO think a forum is likely the way to go, but I also am not 
dismissive that individuals who are highly active on swift-evolution that 
prefer an email workflow will not have their own participation significantly 
compromised by just moving to a forum in a cavalier way.

What I have enjoyed seeing from this thread is a healthy discussion about 
tradeoffs of both approaches and an identification of concerns of moving away 
from the mailing lists.  Some responses to those concerns have been "Discourse 
can handle that", which to me is part of the evaluation of the tradeoffs.  I am 
also really happy that Nate setup the mock Discourse setup so we could evaluate 
thing like the email bridge.  For example, experimenting of whether or not a 
rich HTML email works versus plain text emails for inline responses (which 
turns out to have problems), etc.   That's all super useful for actually 
evaluating moving to Discourse, so in my mind we are actually trying things out 
and identifying problem points.

The other thing I'm considering is the practical logistics of getting this set 
up and maintained (from an infrastructure perspective).  That's not something 
that needs to be discussed on this thread — I'd rather the thread focus on 
whether a forum is the right thing for the community.  But it is still 
something that is being considered in tandem to this discussion, which 
obviously needs to be figured out before we just jump to using Discourse (if 
that is what we end up doing).

Ted___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Ted kremenek via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Personally I think that's an absurd reason not to move to a forum. What is 
> your complaint? That it's _too_ inclusive? That others only have trivial 
> things to say? Frankly, every way I try to interpret your comment makes it 
> come off as snobbery.

Hi Karl,

I appreciate your candor here, but let's avoid making these comments sound 
personal.  This is a thread prompting polarized opinions, and most of it has 
been civil and productive.  Let's keep it that way.  I do respect that you are 
anxious to see progress on the resolution of the topic, but these same points 
could be made in a less antagonistic way.

I encourage all of you to re-read this part of the Code of Conduction on 
Swift.org:

> Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:
> 
> The use of sexualized language or imagery
> Personal attacks
> Trolling or insulting/derogatory comments
> Public or private harassment
> Publishing other’s private information, such as physical or electronic 
> addresses, without explicit permission
> Other unethical or unprofessional conduct
> Project maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or 
> reject comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other contributions 
> that are not aligned to this Code of Conduct, or to ban temporarily or 
> permanently any contributor for other behaviors that they deem inappropriate, 
> threatening, offensive, or harmful.
> 
Thank you,
Ted




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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Karl Wagner via swift-evolution]

 
 
My complaint is really that these discussions have been good on for a year and 
we seem to get in to cyclical debates on how it *might* be, but I'd like to see 
us make a serious effort to try it.   
 
 
 

 
There are some really big discussions happening right now (e.g. the String 
model), and many more really big design discussions to be had in the near 
future (pattern matching, property behaviours, you name it...).
 

 
I think the best part of Swift is that it isn't standardised and isn't yet 
entirely fleshed-out. That means the people who use it every day have a way to 
learn about the design philosophy behind certain features, and to suggest 
meaningful and practical changes based on their experience. We're undercutting 
all of that by making it so awkward for people to get engaged.
 

 
It's at least worth a beta test.
 

 
- Karl
 
 
 

 
 
>  
> On Feb 2, 2017 at 10:45 pm,  mailto:dabrah...@apple.com)>  
> wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
> >  On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner    wrote: 
> >  
> >  somebody build a parallel site to support the style of open community 
> > which the core-team seem unwilling/unable to do. 
>
> I don't think this is fair. We may not be moving as quickly as you'd like but 
> we are looking into it. 
>
> Sent from my moss-covered three-handled family gradunza 
>  ___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Rick Mann via swift-evolution]

I thought Discourse had a mailing list gateway, such that each topic in 
Discourse would be the subject of an email, and replies to the "list" would 
append to the topic in Discourse, while subscribers to the mailing list would 
get messages for each post.

I guess that's harder with styled text, but still seems doable. I have a little 
Discourse forum I run, but have not yet figured out how to enable this 
behavior, if it even exists.

FWIW, I'd really like to have this list moved to Discourse. I think it would 
make it a lot easier to follow conversations infrequently, and shouldn't affect 
users who are immersed in it all day.

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 14:44 , Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Where do you propose to hold and publicize such a vote in order that the 
> people who would participate on a forum but not on a mailing list—ie. those 
> for whom the switch will be most beneficial—are enfranchised?
> 
> Nevin
> 
> On Thursday, February 2, 2017, James Berry  wrote:
> 
> > On Feb 2, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution 
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner  wrote:
> >>
> >> somebody build a parallel site to support the style of open community 
> >> which the core-team seem unwilling/unable to do.
> >
> > I don't think this is fair. We may not be moving as quickly as you'd like 
> > but we are looking into it.
> 
> I would encourage everybody to remember that though there have been a vocal 
> few advocating for something other than a mailing list, the question has 
> never really been put to the community for a vote. I think it’s important to 
> remember that while some people on list may be very vocal in advocating for a 
> position, that doesn’t mean the majority of community members agree. At the 
> least, such a matter should be put to a vote or poll once leading options 
> have been identified.
> 
> Speaking for myself only, discourse seems to give me little of value, while 
> it would plaster emails with html-laden buttons, etc, thus making my favored 
> experience worse than it is today. I’m fairly happy with using a gmail 
> account and server-side filters to file my swift-evolution mails into a 
> mailbox that I can then read on or offline with the threaded email client of 
> my choice.
> 
> James
> 
> ___
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> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution


-- 
Rick Mann
rm...@latencyzero.com


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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Dimitri Racordon via swift-evolution]

Is there any reason we should keep holding back from giving Discourse a 
**real** try?

Most arguments I read were pointed at filtering/flagging issues, or at how the 
focus of the discussions could change. I’ve only tried Discourse once, but to 
the best of my knowledge, it totally addresses the first issue. As for how the 
discussions would change, while I personally seriously doubt it, no one can 
definitively say it will or won’t go this path unless we try. I also read some 
concerns about email addresses being released in the wild, but maybe we could 
use some alias until something more official is set up.

Apparently I’m not the only one who thinks the benefits largely outweigh the 
drawbacks, so at least let’s give it a real try. Besides, I think we could (or 
even **should**) go forward with that test before we think about voting and/or 
how to vote. It could very well confirm/invalidate most of the “imho” arguments.

Aren’t we all somehow familiar with the benefits of testing? =D

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[James Berry via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:44 PM, Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Where do you propose to hold and publicize such a vote in order that the 
> people who would participate on a forum but not on a mailing list—ie. those 
> for whom the switch will be most beneficial—are enfranchised?

The traditional method on a list like this is +1 or -1 in response to a given 
thread. (Note that I’m not calling for such a vote, as I have nothing to 
propose). A perhaps more modern approach would be to give a link to an external 
site that would run the vote/poll.

As to your question of how to reach an audience larger than what we have now 
for a vote, I don’t see any obvious solution: the current community is what it 
is. And I would argue that the current community has invested the most time 
into the project (and likely will going forward) and should have the largest 
vote for how project communication should be facilitated. I wouldn’t advocate 
for advertising far and wide over the internet “how should the swift-evolution 
community communicate?”, as this would be a vote of the internet, and not of 
the swift-evolution community. I do admit you could argue the community may 
have already self-selected to some degree based on the current method of 
commutation; I see no real solution to that apart from continued advocacy from 
people such as you who are speaking up to bring awareness about the issues you 
feel are keeping outsiders from participating.

James


> 
> Nevin
> 
> On Thursday, February 2, 2017, James Berry  > wrote:
> 
> > On Feb 2, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution 
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> somebody build a parallel site to support the style of open community 
> >> which the core-team seem unwilling/unable to do.
> >
> > I don't think this is fair. We may not be moving as quickly as you'd like 
> > but we are looking into it.
> 
> I would encourage everybody to remember that though there have been a vocal 
> few advocating for something other than a mailing list, the question has 
> never really been put to the community for a vote. I think it’s important to 
> remember that while some people on list may be very vocal in advocating for a 
> position, that doesn’t mean the majority of community members agree. At the 
> least, such a matter should be put to a vote or poll once leading options 
> have been identified.
> 
> Speaking for myself only, discourse seems to give me little of value, while 
> it would plaster emails with html-laden buttons, etc, thus making my favored 
> experience worse than it is today. I’m fairly happy with using a gmail 
> account and server-side filters to file my swift-evolution mails into a 
> mailbox that I can then read on or offline with the threaded email client of 
> my choice.
> 
> James
> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Cihat Gündüz via swift-evolution]

I can only say how I perceive the mailing list from my own perspective:

The mailing list is a really confusing way of following the discussions for me. 
I never know the context of an answer since my mail clients don’t show the 
quoted parts correctly. Also I get a lot of emails throughout the day on all my 
devices (including my Apple Watch), even when I’m really not into reading them. 
I’d have to create an extra email account or setup some magic filtering to fix 
this, also make sure I get push notifications only for those other accounts 
etc. – but this is all too much overhead. Therefore the only options for me 
are: Get all emails or get none. Everything else it too complicated to 
configure, given that I just want to read some threads that sound interesting 
to me and maybe post some ideas here and there.

Discourse is a tool that I like very much and find very clean and 
understandable. Also it has a thread-summarize feature which would help a lot 
to get an overview of longer-discussed threads for those of us coming in later 
on. Note that I once followed the mailing list at the relative beginning of the 
open source Swift project and stopped doing that simply because it was too many 
emails that came into my mailbox that I didn’t care about. And that’s what I’m 
experiencing now again given that I opted in since a week or so now.

What I actually wanted or expected Swift Evolution for me to be was a go-to 
solution which I can open when I have time and read about discussion on one 
side and help out with ideas or vote on some issues on the other. I’ve tried 
Hirundo, I have even tried a folder which contains all Swift threads, I tried 
Apple Mail and Airmail 3 – but none of them was simple or useful enough, I 
could never find what I was looking for. Maybe I’m just too stupid for this 
mailing list, but one thing I know for sure: Discourse would have definitely 
solved this problem for me. I wondered from the beginning, why a big company 
like Apple would ever even consider choosing such a poor and unclean interface 
like a mailing list for discussions. I thought I’m missing something and it’s a 
lot more productive and tried to use it – but it simply doesn’t fit my needs.

I can understand how a mailing list is interesting if you are working on 
developing Swift all-day and don’t want to miss any message. But for the open 
source from-time-to-time contributors and followers of the Swift evolution 
discussions I don’t think email is a good solution. Discourse would be great 
for these cases. So, for me personally, if Discourse (or a similar alternative) 
isn’t considered and tried to be introduced, it means that the goal of Swift is 
not to have a broad contributing community but rather a small group of people 
who invest a lot of time to improve the Swift language. Earlier I didn’t think 
like that, I didn’t think about it at all, I just accepted the mailing list 
with „it is, what it is“. But now that I know others feel the same or similarly 
and therefore the guys at Apple are aware of the problem, I’m feeling like 
this, like that this is a question of how broad the community should be. I’d 
like to be a part of it, but the mailing list is not my thing. I’d probably 
drop out soon again … so this is what I think. It might not be of any value for 
the community, but maybe it’s a voice that wants to be heard, so I’m letting 
you hear it.

-- 
Cihat Gündüz

Am 2. Februar 2017 um 22:47:11, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution 
(swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:



> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner  wrote:
>  
> somebody build a parallel site to support the style of open community which 
> the core-team seem unwilling/unable to do.

I don't think this is fair. We may not be moving as quickly as you'd like but 
we are looking into it.  

Sent from my moss-covered three-handled family gradunza
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution]

Where do you propose to hold and publicize such a vote in order that
the people who would participate on a forum but not on a mailing
list—ie. those for whom the switch will be most beneficial—are enfranchised?

Nevin

On Thursday, February 2, 2017, James Berry  wrote:

>
> > On Feb 2, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org > wrote:
> >
> >> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner  > wrote:
> >>
> >> somebody build a parallel site to support the style of open community
> which the core-team seem unwilling/unable to do.
> >
> > I don't think this is fair. We may not be moving as quickly as you'd
> like but we are looking into it.
>
> I would encourage everybody to remember that though there have been a
> vocal few advocating for something other than a mailing list, the question
> has never really been put to the community for a vote. I think it’s
> important to remember that while some people on list may be very vocal in
> advocating for a position, that doesn’t mean the majority of community
> members agree. At the least, such a matter should be put to a vote or poll
> once leading options have been identified.
>
> Speaking for myself only, discourse seems to give me little of value,
> while it would plaster emails with html-laden buttons, etc, thus making my
> favored experience worse than it is today. I’m fairly happy with using a
> gmail account and server-side filters to file my swift-evolution mails into
> a mailbox that I can then read on or offline with the threaded email client
> of my choice.
>
> James
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[James Berry via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner  wrote:
>> 
>> somebody build a parallel site to support the style of open community which 
>> the core-team seem unwilling/unable to do.
> 
> I don't think this is fair. We may not be moving as quickly as you'd like but 
> we are looking into it. 

I would encourage everybody to remember that though there have been a vocal few 
advocating for something other than a mailing list, the question has never 
really been put to the community for a vote. I think it’s important to remember 
that while some people on list may be very vocal in advocating for a position, 
that doesn’t mean the majority of community members agree. At the least, such a 
matter should be put to a vote or poll once leading options have been 
identified.

Speaking for myself only, discourse seems to give me little of value, while it 
would plaster emails with html-laden buttons, etc, thus making my favored 
experience worse than it is today. I’m fairly happy with using a gmail account 
and server-side filters to file my swift-evolution mails into a mailbox that I 
can then read on or offline with the threaded email client of my choice.

James

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Karl Wagner  wrote:
> 
> somebody build a parallel site to support the style of open community which 
> the core-team seem unwilling/unable to do.

I don't think this is fair. We may not be moving as quickly as you'd like but 
we are looking into it. 

Sent from my moss-covered three-handled family gradunza
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Karl Wagner via swift-evolution]

 
 
It discourages trivial contributions in theory only. In practice there is no 
difference. I see plenty of one-line comments and corrections. Take a look at 
any reasonably long thread on here and I'm sure you'll see the same.
 

 
Personally I think that's an absurd reason not to move to a forum. What is your 
complaint? That it's _too_ inclusive? That others only have trivial things to 
say? Frankly, every way I try to interpret your comment makes it come off as 
snobbery.
 

 
This change is long overdue, and I'd recommend we either start beta-testing on 
swift.org or somebody build a parallel site to support the style of open 
community which the core-team seem unwilling/unable to do.
 

 
These threads come up pretty much every month. We have a proof of concept. Just 
like any change, there will be some esoteric cases where people are less happy, 
but it's frankly absurd to suggest this wouldn't be a hugely popular change. Do 
a formal proposal if you want -- I would lay money on it getting passed.
 

 
- Karl
 
 
 

 
>  
> On Feb 2, 2017 at 7:45 pm,   (mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> >  
> > On Feb 1, 2017, at 4:34 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution  
> >   wrote:
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >
> >  
> >  On 1 Feb 2017, at 06:59, Thorsten Seitz via swift-evolution  
> >   wrote:
> >  
> >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > >
> > >  
> > > While I'm not really happy with the mailing list, this is mostly due to 
> > > restrictions of iOS Mail which makes keeping track of relevant threads 
> > > and filtering out threads I'm not interested in difficult.
> > >  
> > >
> > >  
> > > The mailing list has one important advantage over a web interface: most 
> > > of my reading happens on a train to and from work. On this train the 
> > > connection is for most parts of the ride so bad that I can't download new 
> > > messages, but fortunately that is not necessary because I can read all 
> > > those messages I downloaded earlier on the railway station.
> > >  
> > > With a web interface I expect that to be much more problematic because it 
> > > would have to download each message or maybe at least each thread on 
> > > demand.
> > >  
> > >  
> >  
> >
> >  
> > Discourse has a mailing list mode to have send you and accept email 
> > replies. You'd be covered.
> >  
> >
>  
> Discourse has the outward appearance of a forum. Because of that, it will 
> naturally adopt the social behaviors typical of a forum. In forums, light 
> back and forth is common, and there's no way for mods to "remove" messages 
> from having been emailed out. Natural forum-like idle chatter can overwhelm 
> the traffic of those of us who prefer mailing list mode so we can sort, 
> track, flag, and filter the on-list conversations.To get a sense, check 
> out the traffic on  https://swift-lang.slack.com  and  
> https://iosdevelopers.slack.com.
>  
>
>  
> A mailing list discourages off-topic and trivial contributions.I could 
> easily see being sent dozens of emails from a single back and forth.
> Increased traffic would force most users to migrate from email to direct 
> Discourse forums and direct forum use loses the ability to flag, filter, and 
> sort discussions. You can't scan, mark, and put away threads you've already 
> dealt with. This would be a massive loss of utility for those of us who need 
> to keep on top of language discussions for work.
>  
>
>  
> I do prefer upgrading to Mailman 3.
>  
>
>  
> -- E
>  
>
>  ___ swift-evolution mailing list 
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Zach Drayer via swift-evolution]

Anything that encourages people to participate is a good thing in my book. 
Mailing lists are nice, but also not a thing many people are comfortable with.

A system that better supports threads means there is less of a cost to people 
having a back-and-forth than there is today, which also seems to be hugely 
beneficial (whether it be letting people hammer out ideas without disturbing 
everyone, or asking a question about something without pulling attention away 
from the main topic at hand).

I understand that there’s only so much bandwidth to go around, that the team 
may like to focus energies elsewhere (and maybe that technical problems are 
easier to solve than social ones), but use of a mailing list has been a topic 
that the community has been bringing up since the very beginning (the earliest 
thread I can find is from a few days after the list was announced: titled 
“Mailman?”, and from Dec 10, 2015; 
https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
 
).
 Since then, we’ve had a number of Swift proposals, manifestos, and releases 
(not the least of which is Swift 3, which was a tremendous amount of amazing 
work).

Managing communities is definitely hard work, and I really do appreciate how 
much energy everyone already puts into this  —  especially when it’s not 
necessarily a core part of anyone's job. That said, it really would be great if 
some attention could be given to how the community itself works, to come up 
with new ways to let people be involved and to double check that the processes 
we’ve been using are good to go for the next year (for example: I’m still not 
sure of the correct way to revisit an enhancement is after it’s acceptance and 
implementation, and some enhancements like `fileprivate` warrant revisiting).

Thanks,
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Tino Heth via swift-evolution]

> A mailing list discourages off-topic and trivial contributions.  I could 
> easily see being sent dozens of emails from a single back and forth.  
> Increased traffic would force most users to migrate from email to direct 
> Discourse forums and direct forum use loses the ability to flag, filter, and 
> sort discussions. You can't scan, mark, and put away threads you've already 
> dealt with. This would be a massive loss of utility for those of us who need 
> to keep on top of language discussions for work.


True, the mailing list discourages trivial contributions: I never wrote a 
message whose only new content was "+1", and rarely see those in my inbox…
This has a positive aspect, because it keeps the number of mails lower, but it 
also has very bad effects.
It's a very realistic scenario that someone expresses a really clever thought 
that is endorsed by everyone, yet receiving no feedback because no one has to 
add something to it (and doesn't want to write a regular message without real 
content).
This is daunting for the author who feels ignored despite (invisible) 
agreement, thus discouraging to continue contributing.

A forum, on the other hand, is much more flexible and allows lightweight 
reactions without polluting the conversation as it allows to flag messages in a 
way that is not only useful for a single reader, but for the whole community.
I don't know about Discourse, but, of course, it is possible to filter and sort 
data that is presented on a website, mark posts as read or ignore topics, 
threads or people (although I hope that won't be something common).
So if someone starts with chatter, the community can deal with that easily 
using tags, and the imho only drawback that isn't neutralised by the mail 
interface would be very small — assuming that the switch to an official forum 
would harm discipline at all (I doubt that).
It's also harder to send messages to a wrong recipient, accidentally create a 
new thread (both happen all the time with the mailing list) or create an 
infinity loop of "out of office"-mails (I guess Mailman is smart enough to deal 
with those).

Imho a mailing list is a good tool to organise communication of an established 
group, but fails when you want to build an vibrant, open community.
Most likely there aren't many people here that read every message, and I 
challenge everyone to ask yourself if you have "personal filters" like "body 
long, and no @apple.com -> ignore".
I surely have such a filter (luckily, it isn't very reliable ;-), but I don't 
think it's a good thing; I'd prefer not to distribute my attention based on the 
status of the author, but rather on the feedback of those who actually took the 
time to read the message.

The "elite" doesn't suffer from the current medium, but I hope they agree that 
the situation is very different for rookies, and that swift-evolution should 
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Erica Sadun via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 1, 2017, at 4:34 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 1 Feb 2017, at 06:59, Thorsten Seitz via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> 
>> While I'm not really happy with the mailing list, this is mostly due to 
>> restrictions of iOS Mail which makes keeping track of relevant threads and 
>> filtering out threads I'm not interested in difficult.
>> 
>> The mailing list has one important advantage over a web interface: most of 
>> my reading happens on a train to and from work. On this train the connection 
>> is for most parts of the ride so bad that I can't download new messages, but 
>> fortunately that is not necessary because I can read all those messages I 
>> downloaded earlier on the railway station.
>> With a web interface I expect that to be much more problematic because it 
>> would have to download each message or maybe at least each thread on demand.
> 
> Discourse has a mailing list mode to have send you and accept email replies. 
> You'd be covered.
> 

Discourse has the outward appearance of a forum. Because of that, it will 
naturally adopt the social behaviors typical of a forum. In forums, light back 
and forth is common, and there's no way for mods to "remove" messages from 
having been emailed out. Natural forum-like idle chatter can overwhelm the 
traffic of those of us who prefer mailing list mode so we can sort, track, 
flag, and filter the on-list conversations.  To get a sense, check out the 
traffic on https://swift-lang.slack.com  and 
https://iosdevelopers.slack.com .

A mailing list discourages off-topic and trivial contributions.  I could easily 
see being sent dozens of emails from a single back and forth.  Increased 
traffic would force most users to migrate from email to direct Discourse forums 
and direct forum use loses the ability to flag, filter, and sort discussions. 
You can't scan, mark, and put away threads you've already dealt with. This 
would be a massive loss of utility for those of us who need to keep on top of 
language discussions for work.

I do prefer upgrading to Mailman 3.

-- E

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Michael Buckley via swift-evolution]

This morning I received an email from Discourse titled "[Swift Discussions
(Unofficial Test)] Summary". Since this message was sent to my email
address personally, rather than to the swift-evolution address, it appears
that my email address was exported from this list and imported into
Discourse.

At this point, no harm done. This is obviously a self-hosted temporary
Discourse install hosted on Nate's own server. However, I am worried about
how my email address was added to the temporary Discord. I get that this
mailing list can be viewed by anyone, and only slightly obfuscates our
email addresses. Anyone motivated enough can scrape all the email
addresses, but there's a difference between that and Apple handing my email
address to a third party which I may or may not be OK with having it, even
if it's a member of this community.

That's not to say anything bad about Discourse, or to argue one way or
another about whether to move the mailing list, but when I signed up for
swift-evolution, I trusted my email address to Apple for this purpose. It
may be misplaced, but I feel I can trust Apple to not use the email address
for any other purpose, and to keep their servers relatively secure so that
the subscribers list won't leak (again, with the exception of scraping the
addresses).

If Apple ends up hosting its own Discourse server, I won't have any
complaints. But if the decision is made to have it hosted externally, or
another service is chosen, I do not want my email address to be
automatically transferred to the new system. I would like the ability to
chose for myself at that time whether I want to subscribe.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Nate Cook via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

>
> On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman
> mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
>
> My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals and
> seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how an
> alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.
>
> The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM does
> public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift team at
> Apple has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has benefits in
> that it is a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t
> mean it is the best option going forward.
>
> Here are some of the things that matter to me:
>
> - Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.
>
> - It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL that
> allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do if you
> haven’t already been subscribed to the list.
>
> - Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that workflow
> (again this inertia is important).
>
> - Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, are
> a huge plus.
>
> I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such
> as "may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I am
> not disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its
> justification.  Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and
> one isn’t obligated to respond to threads.  Are forums really any less
> “intimating”? If so, why is that the case?  Is this simply a statement
> about mailing lists not being in vogue?
>
> I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is important,
> as opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live chat, such as the
> use of Slack the SwiftPM folks have been using, is very useful too, but I
> don’t want participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing lists feel
> obligated to respond in real time — that’s simply not the nature of the
> communication on the lists.
>
> So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not sacred — we can
> change what we use for our community discussions.  I just want an objective
> evaluation of the needs the mailing lists are meant to serve, and work from
> there.  If moving to something like (say) Discourse would be a negative on
> a critical piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, that would (in
> my opinion) a bad direction to take.  I’m not saying that is the case, just
> that this is how I prefer we approach the discussion.
>
>
> I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One
> *specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take
> a look at Discourse’s import scripts
>  and
> try importing swift-evolution’s mailing archives with them. We absolutely
> do not want to lose history when we 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Dimitri Racordon via swift-evolution]

I for one absolutely dislike using mail clients. The mail is a relic of the 
past that should burn in hell!

Jokes aside, I actually find it very difficult to keep track of the threads. I 
often end up having my client sorting the messages of one thread in a different 
group, probably because the alignement of the moons of Jupiter wasn’t right. 
Besides, searching for something takes ages in Apple Mail, especially on iOS.

Being myself a newcomer, I also agree with the argument on the intimidating 
aspect of the mailing list. It is almost impossible to know if something has 
already been discussed, or simply if an argument has already been made in some 
discussion. And if the discussion did occur after I subscribed, the searching 
issue remains.

Dimitri


On 1 Feb 2017, at 17:58, Jeremy Pereira via swift-evolution 
> wrote:


On 25 Jan 2017, at 23:34, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution 
> wrote:


On Jan 25, 2017, at 1:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
> wrote:

I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman 
mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.


I like and prefer the status quo, particularly for Swift Evolution.

+1

I use the Mac OS mail client in threaded mode and it’s absolutely fine. I can 
easily see which messages I haven’t read, it works offline, I can compose 
messages offline, I have complete control over which messages I keep and which 
messages I don’t keep.



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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jeremy Pereira via swift-evolution]

> On 25 Jan 2017, at 23:34, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 1:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman 
>> mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
> 
> 
> I like and prefer the status quo, particularly for Swift Evolution.

+1

I use the Mac OS mail client in threaded mode and it’s absolutely fine. I can 
easily see which messages I haven’t read, it works offline, I can compose 
messages offline, I have complete control over which messages I keep and which 
messages I don’t keep.
 
> 

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[David Hart via swift-evolution]

> On 1 Feb 2017, at 06:59, Thorsten Seitz via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> While I'm not really happy with the mailing list, this is mostly due to 
> restrictions of iOS Mail which makes keeping track of relevant threads and 
> filtering out threads I'm not interested in difficult.
> 
> The mailing list has one important advantage over a web interface: most of my 
> reading happens on a train to and from work. On this train the connection is 
> for most parts of the ride so bad that I can't download new messages, but 
> fortunately that is not necessary because I can read all those messages I 
> downloaded earlier on the railway station.
> With a web interface I expect that to be much more problematic because it 
> would have to download each message or maybe at least each thread on demand.

Discourse has a mailing list mode to have send you and accept email replies. 
You'd be covered.

> So for me keeping the mailing list while using a modern forum in parallel 
> would be the ideal solution!
> 
> -Thorsten 
> 
>> Am 26.01.2017 um 07:13 schrieb Ted kremenek via swift-evolution 
>> :
>> 
>> I had this same question in my mind — especially if one can reply to an 
>> email and it posts back to the forum.
>> 
>> The mailing list model works well for those who want to get the entire feed 
>> of traffic, and easily monitor which threads they want to follow/read using 
>> the standard affordances in their mail program (e.g., mail filters, flagging 
>> messages, and so on).
>> 
>> The forum interface provides a way for people to just jump in and 
>> participate on specific topics, provide better (standard) rendering of 
>> content — such as code (which can be nice for technical conversations), and 
>> better archiving and possibly be more searchable.
>> 
>> If Discourse supports participation via email, it seems we get the best of 
>> both worlds, as you say.  I'm not super familiar with what Discourse can do 
>> in this regards.
>> 
>>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Can a forum be configured to send each new post to the mailing list with 
>>> proper subject line?
>>> 
>>> If so, that would enable a best-of-both-worlds scenario—or at least the 
>>> ability to dip our toes in a forum to see if it works, while still showing 
>>> everything on-list.
>>> 
>>> Nevin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 11:28 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution 
  wrote:
 
> On Jan 25, 2017, at 6:57 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
> 
>>> Signing up for mailing lists is straightforward, yes—but that’s only a 
>>> small part of it. Signing up for a mailing list is a *commitment.* Once 
>>> you do it, your inbox will be inundated with mailing list posts, making 
>>> it difficult to find messages that actually have been intended for you 
>>> personally. Therefore, you’ll have to deal with that somehow. You can 
>>> set up rules in Mail to route mailing list posts to a separate folder, 
>>> but that won’t help you if you access your webmail from a public 
>>> machine. 
>> 
>> FWIW, I subscribe to many mailing lists in gmail and have it auto filter 
>> emails to mailing lists into a separate mailbox (well, really, tags) for 
>> each list.  It works great for me.
>> 
>> This doesn’t detract from your point about it being a commitment though.
> 
> It does kind of imply a follow-up question, though: is it _undesirable_ 
> that signing up for a mailing list is a modicum of commitment?
 
 I’m mixed on that.  On the one hand, it is great to have some level of 
 commitment before people inject their opinion into the mix for some 
 discussion.  OTOH, I’m sympathetic to the desire that a lot of people want 
 to just “follow along” without participating, and the mailman web 
 interface is pretty uninspired.
 
 -Chris
 
 
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>>> 
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Thorsten Seitz via swift-evolution]

While I'm not really happy with the mailing list, this is mostly due to 
restrictions of iOS Mail which makes keeping track of relevant threads and 
filtering out threads I'm not interested in difficult.

The mailing list has one important advantage over a web interface: most of my 
reading happens on a train to and from work. On this train the connection is 
for most parts of the ride so bad that I can't download new messages, but 
fortunately that is not necessary because I can read all those messages I 
downloaded earlier on the railway station.
With a web interface I expect that to be much more problematic because it would 
have to download each message or maybe at least each thread on demand.

So for me keeping the mailing list while using a modern forum in parallel would 
be the ideal solution!

-Thorsten 

> Am 26.01.2017 um 07:13 schrieb Ted kremenek via swift-evolution 
> :
> 
> I had this same question in my mind — especially if one can reply to an email 
> and it posts back to the forum.
> 
> The mailing list model works well for those who want to get the entire feed 
> of traffic, and easily monitor which threads they want to follow/read using 
> the standard affordances in their mail program (e.g., mail filters, flagging 
> messages, and so on).
> 
> The forum interface provides a way for people to just jump in and participate 
> on specific topics, provide better (standard) rendering of content — such as 
> code (which can be nice for technical conversations), and better archiving 
> and possibly be more searchable.
> 
> If Discourse supports participation via email, it seems we get the best of 
> both worlds, as you say.  I'm not super familiar with what Discourse can do 
> in this regards.
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Can a forum be configured to send each new post to the mailing list with 
>> proper subject line?
>> 
>> If so, that would enable a best-of-both-worlds scenario—or at least the 
>> ability to dip our toes in a forum to see if it works, while still showing 
>> everything on-list.
>> 
>> Nevin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 11:28 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
 On Jan 25, 2017, at 6:57 PM, Xiaodi Wu  wrote:
 
>> Signing up for mailing lists is straightforward, yes—but that’s only a 
>> small part of it. Signing up for a mailing list is a *commitment.* Once 
>> you do it, your inbox will be inundated with mailing list posts, making 
>> it difficult to find messages that actually have been intended for you 
>> personally. Therefore, you’ll have to deal with that somehow. You can 
>> set up rules in Mail to route mailing list posts to a separate folder, 
>> but that won’t help you if you access your webmail from a public 
>> machine. 
> 
> FWIW, I subscribe to many mailing lists in gmail and have it auto filter 
> emails to mailing lists into a separate mailbox (well, really, tags) for 
> each list.  It works great for me.
> 
> This doesn’t detract from your point about it being a commitment though.
 
 It does kind of imply a follow-up question, though: is it _undesirable_ 
 that signing up for a mailing list is a modicum of commitment?
>>> 
>>> I’m mixed on that.  On the one hand, it is great to have some level of 
>>> commitment before people inject their opinion into the mix for some 
>>> discussion.  OTOH, I’m sympathetic to the desire that a lot of people want 
>>> to just “follow along” without participating, and the mailman web interface 
>>> is pretty uninspired.
>>> 
>>> -Chris
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>> 
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Goffredo Marocchi via swift-evolution]

Hello Ted,

I would actually be quite happy if we did rely on both JIRA and Discourse/forum 
for the different kinds of discussions as you were saying: sometimes I do 
believe that it is preferable to specialise more rather than add unwanted noise 
or inefficiency to a forced universal approach: different clear requirements 
requiring different solutions maybe a lot better than forcing a single 
compromise.

I think that although having two different places for discussions seems 
counterintuitive at first, as you said the adhoc and unstructured discussion of 
swift-dev or event swift-evolution at times does not really fit the JIRA model, 
but for bugs and proposals which are actually more self contained and 
structured work items the nature of JIRA fits a lot better and JIRA does offer 
a lot of integrations (with just a little bit of discipline keeping stories and 
GitHub PR's and commits too automatically linked is not hard at all).

At work we do use JIRA for bugs/stories/spikes as well as all the discussion 
directly related to each of them and Confluence/HipChat/e-mail (although I 
think Discourse would fit an important niche for us).
For bugs and stories you want to avoid noise or getting proposals lost, you 
want to be able to track their progress towards deliverable, etc... I am not 
here trying to sell you guys on JIRA ;), but I think that to use it effectively 
you would want the bug/stories filled with the right level of detail and with 
the directly connected discussion happening on the JIRA ticket as well (a JIRA 
ticket like a user story in agile is a conversation).

Kind Regards,

Goffredo

Sent from my iPhone

> On 31 Jan 2017, at 03:49, Ted kremenek via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2017, at 4:21 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 27 Jan 2017, at 02:10, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm surprised there is so little support for JIRA. Anyone think it's a bad 
>>> tool for the job?
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:38 PM Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution 
  wrote:
 I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in 
 the long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, 
 moderate forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the 
 other maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a 
 system like Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
 
 I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time 
 available, and the core team surely has better things to do.
 
 Nevin
 ___
 swift-evolution mailing list
 swift-evolution@swift.org
 https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>> ___
>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>> 
>> Personally, I’d prefer if we used GitHub Issues. I like keeping the current 
>> state of the project together with the known issues in it. It also has 
>> better formatting and actually supports some kind of syntax highlighting for 
>> Swift code.
> 
> We did not go with GitHub Issues for our bug tracking for a few reasons (in 
> no particular order):
> 
> (1) At the time Swift became open source, GitHub did not support arbitrary 
> attachments to issues, which seemed a non-starter since it is important to 
> allow users to be able to file meaningful bug reports with reproducible test 
> cases.  This has since been resolved.
> 
> (2) The locus of everything on GitHub is the repository.  The Swift project 
> spans a bunch of repositories, and we felt it was not desirable to have 
> GitHub Issues, at least for the purposes of bug-tracking, on a per repository 
> level.  Instead, we wanted a central place to file issues that had its own 
> affordances for organizing them.  This is important for many reasons.  First, 
> not all the logical "sub-components" have their own repositories, and it is 
> important to distinguish in the bug-tracker the differences between (say) 
> compiler and standard library bugs.  We also found that users frequently do 
> not know what component — even if they are separate repositories in GitHub — 
> to file a bug report against, and often get it wrong.  Having a central bug 
> database allows us to move things around.  JIRA also provides a lot more 
> tools out of the box for managing issues at scale.
> 
> Note that syncing with other bug tracking systems is not an issue with either 
> JIRA or GitHub Issues, since both provide nice web services APIs for querying 
> them.
> 
> I completely agree that GitHub provides a nicer 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Ted kremenek via swift-evolution]

> On Jan 27, 2017, at 4:21 PM, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 27 Jan 2017, at 02:10, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I'm surprised there is so little support for JIRA. Anyone think it's a bad 
>> tool for the job?
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:38 PM Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in 
>>> the long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, 
>>> moderate forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the 
>>> other maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system 
>>> like Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
>>> 
>>> I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time 
>>> available, and the core team surely has better things to do.
>>> 
>>> Nevin
>>> ___
>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> 
> Personally, I’d prefer if we used GitHub Issues. I like keeping the current 
> state of the project together with the known issues in it. It also has better 
> formatting and actually supports some kind of syntax highlighting for Swift 
> code.

We did not go with GitHub Issues for our bug tracking for a few reasons (in no 
particular order):

(1) At the time Swift became open source, GitHub did not support arbitrary 
attachments to issues, which seemed a non-starter since it is important to 
allow users to be able to file meaningful bug reports with reproducible test 
cases.  This has since been resolved.

(2) The locus of everything on GitHub is the repository.  The Swift project 
spans a bunch of repositories, and we felt it was not desirable to have GitHub 
Issues, at least for the purposes of bug-tracking, on a per repository level.  
Instead, we wanted a central place to file issues that had its own affordances 
for organizing them.  This is important for many reasons.  First, not all the 
logical "sub-components" have their own repositories, and it is important to 
distinguish in the bug-tracker the differences between (say) compiler and 
standard library bugs.  We also found that users frequently do not know what 
component — even if they are separate repositories in GitHub — to file a bug 
report against, and often get it wrong.  Having a central bug database allows 
us to move things around.  JIRA also provides a lot more tools out of the box 
for managing issues at scale.

Note that syncing with other bug tracking systems is not an issue with either 
JIRA or GitHub Issues, since both provide nice web services APIs for querying 
them.

I completely agree that GitHub provides a nicer interface than JIRA, and would 
be one less tool for us to use.  Unfortunately, it doesn't match with some 
important workflows we have in mind for bug tracking.  It forces an 
organization of issues that doesn't match with what the project needs.  If 
those problems did not exist, we'd almost certainly be using GitHub Issues for 
issue tracking as that would more tightly match with the development workflows 
of the rest of the project (e.g., pull requests).

It's an interesting idea to use GitHub Issues or JIRA essentially as a forum — 
but it feels a bit too structured.  I pretty much share Goffredo's opinion here 
on the value of a forum like Discourse versus using a tool like JIRA for 
discussions.  The discussions on swift-dev or swift-evolution often are just 
discussion or even chatter — important chatter, but unstructured and ad hoc.  I 
can see something like GitHub Issues being a useful way for tracking more 
official discussions, such as when a proposal is getting official discussed, 
but I'm not certain if doing something different for those kinds of discussions 
than what are done for the informal shop-and-idea-around discussions on the 
mailing list would be worth it.

> 
> I just assumed that some of our requirements (e.g. syncing with Apple’s 
> internal “radar” system) disqualified it.
> 
> The reason why we don’t have topics every month about migrating our 
> bug-tracking system is that JIRA (while perhaps not optimal) is at least 
> passable. That’s more than you can say for the mailing lists, most of the 
> time.
> 
> - Karl
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

Plus (heart), but not minus. Although it looks like someone has written a
plugin for this:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/retort-a-reaction-style-plugin-for-discourse/35903

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> Does Discourse allow stuff to be "plus-one-ed"? I like how Reddit has this
> feature and I notice that many people on this mailing list either -1 or +1
> something.
>
> I feel like it is very democratic.
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 10:52 AM Rudolf Adamkovič via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>> +1 for either e-mail or GitHub issues. No need for yet another tool...
>>
>> R+
>>
>> On 28 Jan 2017, at 01:21, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 27 Jan 2017, at 02:10, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>> I'm surprised there is so little support for JIRA. Anyone think it's a
>> bad tool for the job?
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:38 PM Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via
>> swift-evolution  wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>> I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in
>> the long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution,
>> moderate forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the
>> other maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system
>> like Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
>>
>>
>> I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time
>> available, and the core team surely has better things to do.
>>
>> Nevin
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
>>
>> Personally, I’d prefer if we used GitHub Issues. I like keeping the
>> current state of the project together with the known issues in it. It also
>> has better formatting and actually supports some kind of syntax
>> highlighting for Swift code.
>>
>> I just assumed that some of our requirements (e.g. syncing with Apple’s
>> internal “radar” system) disqualified it.
>>
>> The reason why we don’t have topics every month about migrating our
>> bug-tracking system is that JIRA (while perhaps not optimal) is at least
>> passable. That’s more than you can say for the mailing lists, most of the
>> time.
>>
>> - Karl
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
>>
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Derrick Ho via swift-evolution]

Does Discourse allow stuff to be "plus-one-ed"? I like how Reddit has this
feature and I notice that many people on this mailing list either -1 or +1
something.

I feel like it is very democratic.
On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 10:52 AM Rudolf Adamkovič via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> +1 for either e-mail or GitHub issues. No need for yet another tool...
>
> R+
>
> On 28 Jan 2017, at 01:21, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 27 Jan 2017, at 02:10, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I'm surprised there is so little support for JIRA. Anyone think it's a bad
> tool for the job?
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:38 PM Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via
> swift-evolution  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in
> the long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution,
> moderate forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the
> other maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system
> like Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
>
>
> I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time
> available, and the core team surely has better things to do.
>
> Nevin
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
> Personally, I’d prefer if we used GitHub Issues. I like keeping the
> current state of the project together with the known issues in it. It also
> has better formatting and actually supports some kind of syntax
> highlighting for Swift code.
>
> I just assumed that some of our requirements (e.g. syncing with Apple’s
> internal “radar” system) disqualified it.
>
> The reason why we don’t have topics every month about migrating our
> bug-tracking system is that JIRA (while perhaps not optimal) is at least
> passable. That’s more than you can say for the mailing lists, most of the
> time.
>
> - Karl
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Rudolf Adamkovič via swift-evolution]

+1 for either e-mail or GitHub issues. No need for yet another tool...

R+

> On 28 Jan 2017, at 01:21, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 27 Jan 2017, at 02:10, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I'm surprised there is so little support for JIRA. Anyone think it's a bad 
>> tool for the job?
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:38 PM Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in the 
>> long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, moderate 
>> forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the other 
>> maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system like 
>> Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
>> 
>> I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time 
>> available, and the core team surely has better things to do.
>> 
>> Nevin
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
>> 
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> 
> Personally, I’d prefer if we used GitHub Issues. I like keeping the current 
> state of the project together with the known issues in it. It also has better 
> formatting and actually supports some kind of syntax highlighting for Swift 
> code.
> 
> I just assumed that some of our requirements (e.g. syncing with Apple’s 
> internal “radar” system) disqualified it.
> 
> The reason why we don’t have topics every month about migrating our 
> bug-tracking system is that JIRA (while perhaps not optimal) is at least 
> passable. That’s more than you can say for the mailing lists, most of the 
> time.
> 
> - Karl
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Karl Wagner via swift-evolution]

> On 27 Jan 2017, at 02:10, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm surprised there is so little support for JIRA. Anyone think it's a bad 
> tool for the job?
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:38 PM Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in the 
> long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, moderate 
> forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the other 
> maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system like 
> Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
> 
> I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time 
> available, and the core team surely has better things to do.
> 
> Nevin
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org 
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Personally, I’d prefer if we used GitHub Issues. I like keeping the current 
state of the project together with the known issues in it. It also has better 
formatting and actually supports some kind of syntax highlighting for Swift 
code.

I just assumed that some of our requirements (e.g. syncing with Apple’s 
internal “radar” system) disqualified it.

The reason why we don’t have topics every month about migrating our 
bug-tracking system is that JIRA (while perhaps not optimal) is at least 
passable. That’s more than you can say for the mailing lists, most of the time.

- Karl___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[David Waite via swift-evolution]

Actually, several projects (Mozilla and WebKit spring to mind) both have 
historically had issue trackers as an essential organization tool, for just 
about everything from planning a new feature to organizing T-Shirt sizes for 
user meet ups. 

Issue trackers work really well for proposals as they allow you to (for 
example) reference previous discussions directly, close a parallel discussion 
to divert people to the main topic, and so on.

Interestingly, Rust did not use Bugzilla but instead used Discourse. I’m 
curious why that choice was made (I suspect it was partly because use of 
bugzilla is a pretty big turn-off for participation?)

-DW

> On Jan 27, 2017, at 12:16 AM, Goffredo Marocchi via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> That is a so so reason though ;).
> JIRA can be a discussion hub and it should be used for discussion centred 
> around user stories, bugs, etc... it is a delivery planning/agile planning 
> tool not a mailing list or a forum for general discussion.
> 
> Creating stories/items to discuss bugs, a proposal under refinement or review 
> (the lifetime of proposals could and should go there), etc... but some of the 
> other material on this list would be better left to something like Discourse 
> or mailing lists.
> 
> I do think we should use JIRA more to discuss and leave a better trace for 
> the evolution of proposals and bugs raised against the language though. 
> Creating tickets in JIRA and then leaving all the details and the discussion 
> outside of JIRA is a bad practice that we should not encourage.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 27 Jan 2017, at 01:15, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> 
>> UX:
>> 
>> *---EmailJIRADiscourse>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> I'm surprised there is so little support for JIRA. Anyone think it's a bad 
>> tool for the job?
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:38 PM Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in the 
>> long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, moderate 
>> forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the other 
>> maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system like 
>> Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
>> 
>> I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time 
>> available, and the core team surely has better things to do.
>> 
>> Nevin
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
>> 
> ___
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> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Goffredo Marocchi via swift-evolution]

That is a so so reason though ;).
JIRA can be a discussion hub and it should be used for discussion centred 
around user stories, bugs, etc... it is a delivery planning/agile planning tool 
not a mailing list or a forum for general discussion.

Creating stories/items to discuss bugs, a proposal under refinement or review 
(the lifetime of proposals could and should go there), etc... but some of the 
other material on this list would be better left to something like Discourse or 
mailing lists.

I do think we should use JIRA more to discuss and leave a better trace for the 
evolution of proposals and bugs raised against the language though. Creating 
tickets in JIRA and then leaving all the details and the discussion outside of 
JIRA is a bad practice that we should not encourage.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Jan 2017, at 01:15, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> UX:
> 
> *---EmailJIRADiscourse>
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> I'm surprised there is so little support for JIRA. Anyone think it's a bad 
>> tool for the job?
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:38 PM Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in 
>>> the long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, 
>>> moderate forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the 
>>> other maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system 
>>> like Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
>>> 
>>> I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time 
>>> available, and the core team surely has better things to do.
>>> 
>>> Nevin
>>> ___
>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>> 
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

UX:

*---EmailJIRADiscourse>



On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Derrick Ho via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I'm surprised there is so little support for JIRA. Anyone think it's a bad
> tool for the job?
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:38 PM Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via
> swift-evolution  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>> I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in
>> the long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution,
>> moderate forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the
>> other maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system
>> like Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
>>
>>
>> I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time
>> available, and the core team surely has better things to do.
>>
>> Nevin
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Derrick Ho via swift-evolution]

I'm surprised there is so little support for JIRA. Anyone think it's a bad
tool for the job?
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:38 PM Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution
 wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in
> the long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution,
> moderate forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the
> other maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system
> like Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
>
>
> I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time
> available, and the core team surely has better things to do.
>
> Nevin
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Nevin Brackett-Rozinsky via swift-evolution]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in
> the long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution,
> moderate forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the
> other maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system
> like Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker.
>

I will volunteer to be a moderator of the Swift forums. I have time
available, and the core team surely has better things to do.

Nevin
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

This is amazing! It solved the biggest complaint a few of us have with the 
current archive!

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 1:36 PM, Tyler Stromberg via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> on Thu Jan 26 2017, Dave Abrahams  wrote:
> > on Thu Jan 26 2017, Nate Cook  > > wrote:
> >
> >> ✋
> >>
> >> I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem
> >> dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see
> >> the results of an import (using one or two day old data) at this
> >> address:
> >>http://discourse.natecook.com/ 
> >>
> >> It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some
> >> obvious marks of their mailing list origins. Users can actually claim
> >> their accounts if they do a password reset. However:
> >>- it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top out at 100 
> >> emails/day
> >>- I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think it's the 
> >> real deal
> >
> >It's a shame that it has no facility for hiding long quotations.  Trying
> >to find the actual content in this thread is pretty awful:
> >http://discourse.natecook.com/t/strings-in-swift-4/2980/13 
> >
> 
> A few months ago I wrote a tool in Elixir to better browse the mailing list 
> archives by thread. Demo is here (forgive the frontend dev skills):
> 
> https://swift-archive-staging.herokuapp.com
> 
> As part of that, I added support for converting posts to markdown and 
> clipping long quotations (though sadly that has not yet been deployed to the 
> above link). It's quite a bit of work, but ultimately it probably makes sense 
> to clean up the data before we pull it in to Discourse (prune long 
> quotations, convert to markdown, reparent orphan replies (such as this one), 
> etc). If we do decide to move to Discourse (which I'd strongly support), I'd 
> gladly put in the effort to clean up threads before we import them.
> 
> -Tyler
> ___
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> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Tyler Stromberg via swift-evolution]

on Thu Jan 26 2017, Dave Abrahams  wrote:

on Thu Jan 26 2017, Nate Cook  wrote:


✋

I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem
dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see
the results of an import (using one or two day old data) at this
address:
http://discourse.natecook.com/

It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some
obvious marks of their mailing list origins. Users can actually claim
their accounts if they do a password reset. However:
- it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top out at 100 
emails/day
- I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think it's the 
real deal


It's a shame that it has no facility for hiding long quotations.  Trying
to find the actual content in this thread is pretty awful:
http://discourse.natecook.com/t/strings-in-swift-4/2980/13


A few months ago I wrote a tool in Elixir to better browse the mailing list 
archives by thread. Demo is here (forgive the frontend dev skills):

https://swift-archive-staging.herokuapp.com

As part of that, I added support for converting posts to markdown and clipping 
long quotations (though sadly that has not yet been deployed to the above 
link). It's quite a bit of work, but ultimately it probably makes sense to 
clean up the data before we pull it in to Discourse (prune long quotations, 
convert to markdown, reparent orphan replies (such as this one), etc). If we do 
decide to move to Discourse (which I'd strongly support), I'd gladly put in the 
effort to clean up threads before we import them.

-Tyler___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 12:43 PM, James Berry via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

>
> Since many will likely want to continue to access the discussion via mail,
> I have some questions for anybody who actually has real-life experience in
> using Discourse primarily via email:
>
> 1. Can one sign up to receive all posts within a project via email? Or
> does one need to sign up for email on a thread-by-thread basis?
>

Yes, it's called "mailing list mode". Looks like this:
http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-replace-discourse-with-a-mailing-list/3052/3?u=jtbandes


> 2. Can one receive email notifications of new threads?
>

Mailing list mode enables this.


> 3. How does one create a new thread via email? (presumably just by sending
> an email with a new subject, ala mailing list?)
>

Yep, here's an example: http://discourse.natecook.com/
t/an-evaluation-of-mailing-list-mode/3053/1


>
> Based on my (limited, non-subscriber-to-discourse) experience so far, I
> would vote for the status quo, perhaps based on years of using mailing
> lists via email. But I’m trying to be open minded.
>
> James
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

I took some screenshots of this:

http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-replace-discourse-with-a-mailing-list/3052/3

We can do some further testing once we set up inbound email support.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:58 AM David Hart via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> Awesome! I want to use this now :D Btw, for the people who prefer email:
> how would a system where discourse sends them the email work for them?
>
> On 26 Jan 2017, at 19:02, Nate Cook via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman
> mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
>
> My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals and
> seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how an
> alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.
>
> The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM does
> public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift team at
> Apple has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has benefits in
> that it is a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t
> mean it is the best option going forward.
>
> Here are some of the things that matter to me:
>
> - Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.
>
> - It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL that
> allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do if you
> haven’t already been subscribed to the list.
>
> - Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that workflow
> (again this inertia is important).
>
> - Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, are
> a huge plus.
>
> I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such
> as "may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I am
> not disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its
> justification.  Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and
> one isn’t obligated to respond to threads.  Are forums really any less
> “intimating”? If so, why is that the case?  Is this simply a statement
> about mailing lists not being in vogue?
>
> I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is important,
> as opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live chat, such as the
> use of Slack the SwiftPM folks have been using, is very useful too, but I
> don’t want participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing lists feel
> obligated to respond in real time — that’s simply not the nature of the
> communication on the lists.
>
> So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not sacred — we can
> change what we use for our community discussions.  I just want an objective
> evaluation of the needs the mailing lists are meant to serve, and work from
> there.  If moving to something like (say) Discourse would be a negative on
> a critical piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, that would (in
> my opinion) a bad direction to take.  I’m not saying that is the case, just
> that this is how I prefer we approach the discussion.
>
>
> I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One
> *specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take
> a look at Discourse’s import scripts
>  and
> try importing swift-evolution’s mailing archives with them. We absolutely
> do not want to lose history when we switch technologies. Do the messages
> import well? Are threading and topics maintained in a reasonable manner?
> Does Discourse provide effective UI for looking into past discussions on
> some specific topic we’re interested in?
>
> - Doug
>
>
> ✋
>
> I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem
> dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the
> results of an import (using one or two day old data) at this address:
> http://discourse.natecook.com/
>
> It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some
> obvious marks of their mailing list origins. Users can actually claim their
> accounts if they do a password reset. However:
> - it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top out at 100
> emails/day
> - I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think it's the real
> deal
>
> I might have mentioned this before, but I'm strongly in favor of
> forum-based solution over the mailing list (at least for this group), and
> Discourse seems to be the best one running right now (and fairly open to
> extension and customization). I made a new topic here to demonstrate a
> couple features (code blocks and 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[James Berry via swift-evolution]

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:02 AM, Nate Cook via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem dependencies, 
> and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the results of an 
> import (using one or two day old data) at this address:
>   http://discourse.natecook.com/ 

Thanks, Nate, for setting this up. I’ve never played with discourse before, but 
this allowed me to spend some time with it in the context of swift-evolution.

My first impression, based perhaps on not being familiar with it, was that it 
didn’t add much to the mailing list experience. The top-level list of threads 
is good. However, once within a thread, I distinctly found the experience 
(http://discourse.natecook.com/t/strings-in-swift-4/2980/ 
, as Dave mentioned) 
to be sub-par to what I’m used to with my mail client. It was a confounding 
blob of content. Are there plug-ins to provide an index to posts within a 
thread? (the magic J and K keys that Nate just mentioned might would help some, 
but still require a heck-of-a-lot of scrolling to find stuff). The ability to 
persistently collapse posts would seem key as well.

Since many will likely want to continue to access the discussion via mail, I 
have some questions for anybody who actually has real-life experience in using 
Discourse primarily via email:

1. Can one sign up to receive all posts within a project via email? Or does one 
need to sign up for email on a thread-by-thread basis?
2. Can one receive email notifications of new threads?
3. How does one create a new thread via email? (presumably just by sending an 
email with a new subject, ala mailing list?)

Based on my (limited, non-subscriber-to-discourse) experience so far, I would 
vote for the status quo, perhaps based on years of using mailing lists via 
email. But I’m trying to be open minded.

James___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution]

on Thu Jan 26 2017, Adrian Zubarev  wrote:

> That’s exactly how almost all of your replies were displayed in my
> mail-client. 

Yeah, I know.  I've at least partly succumbed to the prevailing flow.  I
started to question my own careful practices several years ago when
participating in an email thread with some people who were confused and
angered by both inline replies and by any reply that didn't contain the
entire foregoing message history.

> Combined with inlined messages it’s a nightmare to search through. 
>
> The sooner we migrate over to a forum, the better.

I don't see how that's going to help with this problem.  Of course, that
makes the problem I've raised irrelevant to the topic at hand, so I
guess we should stop talking about it here.

-- 
-Dave

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Nate Cook via swift-evolution]

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 1:41 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> It's a shame that it has no facility for hiding long quotations.  Trying
> to find the actual content in this thread is pretty awful:
> http://discourse.natecook.com/t/strings-in-swift-4/2980/13

Definitely—if the group were to make the switch to Discourse, I would imagine 
there would be fewer posts that follow the "quote all and top post" strategy, 
but in the imported posts they really do get in the way.

FWIW, you can jump from message to message with the J and K keys in Discourse, 
or press ? to see all the key shortcuts.

Nate

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

Not true if you quote something via the web interface. See my quote here:
http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 12:03 PM Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

>
> on Thu Jan 26 2017, Nate Cook  wrote:
>
> > ✋
> >
> > I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem
> > dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see
> > the results of an import (using one or two day old data) at this
> > address:
> >   http://discourse.natecook.com/
> >
> > It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some
> > obvious marks of their mailing list origins. Users can actually claim
> > their accounts if they do a password reset. However:
> >   - it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top out
> at 100 emails/day
> >   - I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think it's
> the real deal
>
> It's a shame that it has no facility for hiding long quotations.  Trying
> to find the actual content in this thread is pretty awful:
> http://discourse.natecook.com/t/strings-in-swift-4/2980/13
>
> Once upon a time, there was a tradition of carefully crafting the
> presentation of replies to mailing lists
>  but I fear those
> days may be behind us.
>
> > I might have mentioned this before, but I'm strongly in favor of
> > forum-based solution over the mailing list (at least for this group),
> > and Discourse seems to be the best one running right now (and fairly
> > open to extension and customization). I made a new topic here to
> > demonstrate a couple features (code blocks and inline images):
> >   http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051
>
> That said, I too am strongly in favor of moving to Discourse.
>
> --
> -Dave
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Goffredo Marocchi via swift-evolution]

C'mon this is not a concern of the developers making apps that help make this 
ecosystem popular and thus the devices they sell. I understand your point, but 
I can also understand that it is fair for a non Apple employee or non Apple 
stock options holder to question resources allocation.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 26 Jan 2017, at 19:30, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Apple having billions of dollars, and the Swift team as a tiny part of Apple 
> with associated resource allocations, are two completely different things. 
> Please don't be obtuse.
> 
> Best,
> Austin
> 
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Charles Srstka  
> wrote:
>>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't like mailing lists in particular (or, really, at all), but I 
>>> haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in the 
>>> long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, moderate 
>>> forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the other 
>>> maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system like 
>>> Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker. I suspect that any such 
>>> solution is going to require an additional commitment since 1). we will no 
>>> longer be able to leverage shared mailing-list infrastructure that is run 
>>> by people outside the Swift team, 2). it's pretty much a given IMO that any 
>>> solution which encourages richer and easier interaction is going to require 
>>> additional community curation.
>> 
>> Are we really arguing that Apple, the most valuable corporation in the 
>> world, does not have the resources to host a web forum?
>> 
>> Charles
>> 
> 
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Austin Zheng via swift-evolution]

Apple having billions of dollars, and the Swift team as a tiny part of
Apple with associated resource allocations, are two completely different
things. Please don't be obtuse.

Best,
Austin

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Charles Srstka 
wrote:

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
> I don't like mailing lists in particular (or, really, at all), but I
> haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in the
> long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, moderate
> forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the other
> maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system like
> Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker. I suspect that any such
> solution is going to require an additional commitment since 1). we will no
> longer be able to leverage shared mailing-list infrastructure that is run
> by people outside the Swift team, 2). it's pretty much a given IMO that any
> solution which encourages richer and easier interaction is going to require
> additional community curation.
>
>
> Are we really arguing that Apple, the most valuable corporation in the
> world, does not have the resources to host a web forum?
>
> Charles
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution]

That’s exactly how almost all of your replies were displayed in my mail-client. 
Combined with inlined messages it’s a nightmare to search through. 

The sooner we migrate over to a forum, the better. 

-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 26. Januar 2017 um 21:03:48, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution 
(swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:

It's a shame that it has no facility for hiding long quotations. Trying
to find the actual content in this thread is pretty awful:
http://discourse.natecook.com/t/strings-in-swift-4/2980/13___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution]

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> on Thu Jan 26 2017, Matthew Johnson  wrote:
> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client. Having to
>>> participate in a web app is a regression in my experience.
>> 
>> +1.  I like email way better than web forums for this kind of discussion.
> 
> Discourse lets you use email if that's what you want to do.  Nobody
> participating is forced to use the web interface.  

Interesting, I wasn’t aware of that.  If we can participate using email just 
like today, then I have no objection to going that route.

> The difference is
> that
> 
> a) the web interface is available to those who want it
> b) the history of discussions is much easier to retrieve and review

An improved web archive would be excellent!

> 
> -- 
> -Dave
> 
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution]

on Thu Jan 26 2017, Nate Cook  wrote:

> ✋
>
> I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem
> dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see
> the results of an import (using one or two day old data) at this
> address:
>   http://discourse.natecook.com/
>
> It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some
> obvious marks of their mailing list origins. Users can actually claim
> their accounts if they do a password reset. However:
>   - it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top out at 100 
> emails/day
>   - I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think it's the 
> real deal

It's a shame that it has no facility for hiding long quotations.  Trying
to find the actual content in this thread is pretty awful:
http://discourse.natecook.com/t/strings-in-swift-4/2980/13

Once upon a time, there was a tradition of carefully crafting the
presentation of replies to mailing lists
 but I fear those
days may be behind us.

> I might have mentioned this before, but I'm strongly in favor of
> forum-based solution over the mailing list (at least for this group),
> and Discourse seems to be the best one running right now (and fairly
> open to extension and customization). I made a new topic here to
> demonstrate a couple features (code blocks and inline images):
>   http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051

That said, I too am strongly in favor of moving to Discourse.

-- 
-Dave

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution]

on Thu Jan 26 2017, Matthew Johnson  wrote:

>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client. Having to
>> participate in a web app is a regression in my experience.
>
> +1.  I like email way better than web forums for this kind of discussion.

Discourse lets you use email if that's what you want to do.  Nobody
participating is forced to use the web interface.  The difference is
that

a) the web interface is available to those who want it
b) the history of discussions is much easier to retrieve and review

-- 
-Dave

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[David Hart via swift-evolution]

Awesome! I want to use this now :D Btw, for the people who prefer email: how 
would a system where discourse sends them the email work for them?

> On 26 Jan 2017, at 19:02, Nate Cook via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman 
>>> mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
>>> 
>>> My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals and 
>>> seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how an 
>>> alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.
>>> 
>>> The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM does 
>>> public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift team at 
>>> Apple has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has benefits in 
>>> that it is a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t 
>>> mean it is the best option going forward.
>>> 
>>> Here are some of the things that matter to me:
>>> 
>>> - Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.
>>> 
>>> - It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL that 
>>> allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do if you 
>>> haven’t already been subscribed to the list.
>>> 
>>> - Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that workflow 
>>> (again this inertia is important).
>>> 
>>> - Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, are a 
>>> huge plus.
>>> 
>>> I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such as 
>>> "may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I am not 
>>> disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its justification. 
>>>  Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and one isn’t 
>>> obligated to respond to threads.  Are forums really any less “intimating”? 
>>> If so, why is that the case?  Is this simply a statement about mailing 
>>> lists not being in vogue?
>>> 
>>> I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is important, 
>>> as opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live chat, such as the 
>>> use of Slack the SwiftPM folks have been using, is very useful too, but I 
>>> don’t want participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing lists feel 
>>> obligated to respond in real time — that’s simply not the nature of the 
>>> communication on the lists.
>>> 
>>> So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not sacred — we can change 
>>> what we use for our community discussions.  I just want an objective 
>>> evaluation of the needs the mailing lists are meant to serve, and work from 
>>> there.  If moving to something like (say) Discourse would be a negative on 
>>> a critical piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, that would (in 
>>> my opinion) a bad direction to take.  I’m not saying that is the case, just 
>>> that this is how I prefer we approach the discussion.
>> 
>> I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One 
>> *specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take a 
>> look at Discourse’s import scripts 
>>  
>> and try importing swift-evolution’s mailing archives with them. We 
>> absolutely do not want to lose history when we switch technologies. Do the 
>> messages import well? Are threading and topics maintained in a reasonable 
>> manner? Does Discourse provide effective UI for looking into past 
>> discussions on some specific topic we’re interested in?
>> 
>>  - Doug
> 
> ✋
> 
> I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem dependencies, 
> and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the results of an 
> import (using one or two day old data) at this address:
>   http://discourse.natecook.com/ 
> 
> It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some 
> obvious marks of their mailing list origins. Users can actually claim their 
> accounts if they do a password reset. However:
>   - it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top out at 100 
> emails/day
>   - I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think it's the 
> real deal
> 
> I might have mentioned this before, but I'm strongly in favor of forum-based 
> solution over the mailing list (at least for this group), and Discourse seems 
> to be the best one running right now (and fairly open to extension and 
> customization). I made a new topic here to demonstrate a couple features 
> 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Charles Srstka via swift-evolution]

For a tiny but massively important part of Apple on which they’re essentially 
betting the entire future of the company? Yeah, I think the world’s richest 
Fortune 500 company can afford to allocate the resources for a web forum.

Charles

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 1:30 PM, Austin Zheng  wrote:
> 
> Apple having billions of dollars, and the Swift team as a tiny part of Apple 
> with associated resource allocations, are two completely different things. 
> Please don't be obtuse.
> 
> Best,
> Austin
> 
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Charles Srstka  > wrote:
>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I don't like mailing lists in particular (or, really, at all), but I haven't 
>> yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in the long-term 
>> commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, moderate forums, 
>> make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the other maintenance 
>> and administrative work it takes to properly run a system like Discourse, a 
>> web forum, or even a bug tracker. I suspect that any such solution is going 
>> to require an additional commitment since 1). we will no longer be able to 
>> leverage shared mailing-list infrastructure that is run by people outside 
>> the Swift team, 2). it's pretty much a given IMO that any solution which 
>> encourages richer and easier interaction is going to require additional 
>> community curation.
> 
> Are we really arguing that Apple, the most valuable corporation in the world, 
> does not have the resources to host a web forum?
> 
> Charles
> 
> 

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Charles Srstka via swift-evolution]

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I don't like mailing lists in particular (or, really, at all), but I haven't 
> yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in the long-term 
> commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, moderate forums, make 
> technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the other maintenance and 
> administrative work it takes to properly run a system like Discourse, a web 
> forum, or even a bug tracker. I suspect that any such solution is going to 
> require an additional commitment since 1). we will no longer be able to 
> leverage shared mailing-list infrastructure that is run by people outside the 
> Swift team, 2). it's pretty much a given IMO that any solution which 
> encourages richer and easier interaction is going to require additional 
> community curation.

Are we really arguing that Apple, the most valuable corporation in the world, 
does not have the resources to host a web forum?

Charles

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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Austin Zheng via swift-evolution]

If you're not going to make the barest attempt to respond to my emails with
the slightest modicum of good faith I'm finished with this conversation.
Have fun!

Best,
Austin

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Charles Srstka 
wrote:

> For a tiny but massively important part of Apple on which they’re
> essentially betting the entire future of the company? Yeah, I think the
> world’s richest Fortune 500 company can afford to allocate the resources
> for a web forum.
>
> Charles
>
> On Jan 26, 2017, at 1:30 PM, Austin Zheng  wrote:
>
> Apple having billions of dollars, and the Swift team as a tiny part of
> Apple with associated resource allocations, are two completely different
> things. Please don't be obtuse.
>
> Best,
> Austin
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Charles Srstka  > wrote:
>
>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:54 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I don't like mailing lists in particular (or, really, at all), but I
>> haven't yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in the
>> long-term commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, moderate
>> forums, make technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the other
>> maintenance and administrative work it takes to properly run a system like
>> Discourse, a web forum, or even a bug tracker. I suspect that any such
>> solution is going to require an additional commitment since 1). we will no
>> longer be able to leverage shared mailing-list infrastructure that is run
>> by people outside the Swift team, 2). it's pretty much a given IMO that any
>> solution which encourages richer and easier interaction is going to require
>> additional community curation.
>>
>>
>> Are we really arguing that Apple, the most valuable corporation in the
>> world, does not have the resources to host a web forum?
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Austin Zheng via swift-evolution]

+1 for keeping email, +0.25 for moving to GitHub like what Rust did.

I don't like mailing lists in particular (or, really, at all), but I haven't 
yet seen a good answer to the question: who is going to put in the long-term 
commitment to host and maintain a replacement solution, moderate forums, make 
technical upgrades and backups, and perform all the other maintenance and 
administrative work it takes to properly run a system like Discourse, a web 
forum, or even a bug tracker. I suspect that any such solution is going to 
require an additional commitment since 1). we will no longer be able to 
leverage shared mailing-list infrastructure that is run by people outside the 
Swift team, 2). it's pretty much a given IMO that any solution which encourages 
richer and easier interaction is going to require additional community curation.

Properly answering this question (even if it's as simple as the core team 
agreeing to devote additional whatever Apple or swift.org  
resources are necessary to maintain e.g. a discourse instance over the next 
five years) is far more important to me than things like convenience or 
user-friendliness. I know this is pretty much the opposite direction that Ted 
wanted the discussion to go in, but I think it's important enough to bring up, 
plus the last time this topic came up similar concerns were raised but never 
really addressed.

Best regards,
Austin


> On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> 
>> I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client. Having to 
>> participate in a web app is a regression in my experience.
> 
> +1.  I like email way better than web forums for this kind of discussion.
> 
>> 
>> Daniel Duan
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>>> Awesome :) Hopefully that will finally convince the people what ‘are 
>>> working on this’ to actually make it ;)
>>> 
>>> I could find some really old threads of mine in just seconds. My mail 
>>> client cannot do that job that well. 
>>> 
>>> Cannot wait 襤
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Adrian Zubarev
>>> Sent with Airmail
>>> 
>>> Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:03:13, Nate Cook via swift-evolution 
>>> (swift-evolution@swift.org ) schrieb:
>>> 
 
> On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the 
>> Mailman mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
>> 
>> My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals 
>> and seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how 
>> an alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.
>> 
>> The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM 
>> does public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift 
>> team at Apple has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has 
>> benefits in that it is a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — 
>> but the doesn’t mean it is the best option going forward.
>> 
>> Here are some of the things that matter to me:
>> 
>> - Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.
>> 
>> - It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL 
>> that allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do 
>> if you haven’t already been subscribed to the list.
>> 
>> - Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that 
>> workflow (again this inertia is important).
>> 
>> - Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, 
>> are a huge plus.
>> 
>> I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such 
>> as "may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I 
>> am not disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its 
>> justification.  Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, 
>> and one isn’t obligated to respond to threads.  Are forums really any 
>> less “intimating”? If so, why is that the case?  Is this simply a 
>> statement about mailing lists not being in vogue?
>> 
>> I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is 
>> important, as opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live 
>> 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:49 AM, Adrian Zubarev 
>  wrote:
> 
> There are official mobile apps for Discourse: iOS 
>  & 
> Android .
> 
> I wonder how people would argue if we’d had started using a forum from the 
> beginning and would now discuss a switch to an email list. That would be a 
> real discussion about regression.
> 
> 

The argument would go like this: as someone (imaginary, but true for a lot of 
folks at Apple) who has been contributing to LLVM for a longtime, I find having 
to use a totally set of communication tools a huge loss on productivity. I also 
read most of this forum ;) on my commute with very pool internet and would love 
to be able to read and compose offline.

This last point is not imaginary.

> 
> 
> -- 
> Adrian Zubarev
> Sent with Airmail
> 
> Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:26:39, Daniel Duan (dan...@duan.org 
> ) schrieb:
> 
>> I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client. Having to 
>> participate in a web app is a regression in my experience.
>> 
>> Daniel Duan
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>>> Awesome :) Hopefully that will finally convince the people what ‘are 
>>> working on this’ to actually make it ;)
>>> 
>>> I could find some really old threads of mine in just seconds. My mail 
>>> client cannot do that job that well. 
>>> 
>>> Cannot wait 襤
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Adrian Zubarev
>>> Sent with Airmail
>>> 
>>> Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:03:13, Nate Cook via swift-evolution 
>>> (swift-evolution@swift.org ) schrieb:
>>> 
 
> On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the 
>> Mailman mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
>> 
>> My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals 
>> and seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how 
>> an alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.
>> 
>> The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM 
>> does public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift 
>> team at Apple has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has 
>> benefits in that it is a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — 
>> but the doesn’t mean it is the best option going forward.
>> 
>> Here are some of the things that matter to me:
>> 
>> - Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.
>> 
>> - It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL 
>> that allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do 
>> if you haven’t already been subscribed to the list.
>> 
>> - Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that 
>> workflow (again this inertia is important).
>> 
>> - Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, 
>> are a huge plus.
>> 
>> I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such 
>> as "may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I 
>> am not disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its 
>> justification.  Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, 
>> and one isn’t obligated to respond to threads.  Are forums really any 
>> less “intimating”? If so, why is that the case?  Is this simply a 
>> statement about mailing lists not being in vogue?
>> 
>> I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is 
>> important, as opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live 
>> chat, such as the use of Slack the SwiftPM folks have been using, is 
>> very useful too, but I don’t want participants on swift-evolution or any 
>> of our mailing lists feel obligated to respond in real time — that’s 
>> simply not the nature of the communication on the lists.
>> 
>> So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not sacred — we can 
>> change what we use for our community discussions.  I just want an 
>> objective evaluation of the needs the mailing lists are meant to serve, 
>> and work from there.  If moving to something like (say) Discourse would 
>> be a negative on a critical piece that is well-served by the mailing 
>> lists, that would (in my opinion) a bad 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution]

There are official mobile apps for Discourse: iOS & Android.

I wonder how people would argue if we’d had started using a forum from the 
beginning and would now discuss a switch to an email list. That would be a real 
discussion about regression.



-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:26:39, Daniel Duan (dan...@duan.org) schrieb:

I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client. Having to 
participate in a web app is a regression in my experience.

Daniel Duan
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
 wrote:

Awesome :) Hopefully that will finally convince the people what ‘are working on 
this’ to actually make it ;)

I could find some really old threads of mine in just seconds. My mail client 
cannot do that job that well. 

Cannot wait 襤

-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:03:13, Nate Cook via swift-evolution 
(swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:


On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution 
 wrote:


On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
 wrote:

I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman 
mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.

My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals and 
seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how an 
alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.

The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM does 
public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift team at Apple 
has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has benefits in that it is 
a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t mean it is the 
best option going forward.

Here are some of the things that matter to me:

- Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.

- It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL that 
allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do if you 
haven’t already been subscribed to the list.

- Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that workflow 
(again this inertia is important).

- Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, are a 
huge plus.

I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such as 
"may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I am not 
disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its justification.  
Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and one isn’t obligated 
to respond to threads.  Are forums really any less “intimating”? If so, why is 
that the case?  Is this simply a statement about mailing lists not being in 
vogue?

I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is important, as 
opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live chat, such as the use of 
Slack the SwiftPM folks have been using, is very useful too, but I don’t want 
participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing lists feel obligated to 
respond in real time — that’s simply not the nature of the communication on the 
lists.

So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not sacred — we can change 
what we use for our community discussions.  I just want an objective evaluation 
of the needs the mailing lists are meant to serve, and work from there.  If 
moving to something like (say) Discourse would be a negative on a critical 
piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, that would (in my opinion) a 
bad direction to take.  I’m not saying that is the case, just that this is how 
I prefer we approach the discussion.

I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One 
*specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take a 
look at Discourse’s import scripts and try importing swift-evolution’s mailing 
archives with them. We absolutely do not want to lose history when we switch 
technologies. Do the messages import well? Are threading and topics maintained 
in a reasonable manner? Does Discourse provide effective UI for looking into 
past discussions on some specific topic we’re interested in?

- Doug

✋

I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem dependencies, 
and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the results of an import 
(using one or two day old data) at this address:
http://discourse.natecook.com/

It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some obvious 
marks of their mailing list origins. Users can actually claim their accounts if 
they do a password reset. However:
- it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top out at 100 
emails/day
- I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think it's the real deal

I might have mentioned this before, but I'm strongly 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution]

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client. Having to 
> participate in a web app is a regression in my experience.

+1.  I like email way better than web forums for this kind of discussion.

> 
> Daniel Duan
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Awesome :) Hopefully that will finally convince the people what ‘are working 
>> on this’ to actually make it ;)
>> 
>> I could find some really old threads of mine in just seconds. My mail client 
>> cannot do that job that well. 
>> 
>> Cannot wait 襤
>> 
>> -- 
>> Adrian Zubarev
>> Sent with Airmail
>> 
>> Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:03:13, Nate Cook via swift-evolution 
>> (swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:
>> 
>>> 
 On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution 
  wrote:
 
> 
> On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the 
> Mailman mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
> 
> My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals 
> and seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how an 
> alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.
> 
> The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM 
> does public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift 
> team at Apple has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has 
> benefits in that it is a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but 
> the doesn’t mean it is the best option going forward.
> 
> Here are some of the things that matter to me:
> 
> - Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.
> 
> - It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL that 
> allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do if 
> you haven’t already been subscribed to the list.
> 
> - Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that workflow 
> (again this inertia is important).
> 
> - Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, are 
> a huge plus.
> 
> I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such 
> as "may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I 
> am not disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its 
> justification.  Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, 
> and one isn’t obligated to respond to threads.  Are forums really any 
> less “intimating”? If so, why is that the case?  Is this simply a 
> statement about mailing lists not being in vogue?
> 
> I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is 
> important, as opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live 
> chat, such as the use of Slack the SwiftPM folks have been using, is very 
> useful too, but I don’t want participants on swift-evolution or any of 
> our mailing lists feel obligated to respond in real time — that’s simply 
> not the nature of the communication on the lists.
> 
> So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not sacred — we can 
> change what we use for our community discussions.  I just want an 
> objective evaluation of the needs the mailing lists are meant to serve, 
> and work from there.  If moving to something like (say) Discourse would 
> be a negative on a critical piece that is well-served by the mailing 
> lists, that would (in my opinion) a bad direction to take.  I’m not 
> saying that is the case, just that this is how I prefer we approach the 
> discussion.
 
 I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One 
 *specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take 
 a look at Discourse’s import scripts and try importing swift-evolution’s 
 mailing archives with them. We absolutely do not want to lose history when 
 we switch technologies. Do the messages import well? Are threading and 
 topics maintained in a reasonable manner? Does Discourse provide effective 
 UI for looking into past discussions on some specific topic we’re 
 interested in?
 
 - Doug
>>> 
>>> ✋
>>> 
>>> I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem 
>>> dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the 
>>> results of an import (using one or two day old data) at this address:
>>> http://discourse.natecook.com/
>>> 
>>> It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Derrick Ho via swift-evolution]

I don't like mailing lists since it is very easy to forget about a topic.
What I noticed about mailing lists is that the most controversial topics
live the longest. I think swift-evolution should be able discussing the
stuff that matters for the future of swift.

I think the best choice for that would be JIRA.

The whole swift evolution process can be better streamlined with this tool.
Each proposal goes through different states from development, to awaiting
review, to being approved or rejected.

We can make JIRA a part of the swift-evolution process. By incorporating
the process as part of the workflow. The Jira board allows everyone to see
what stage a proposal is in. You can see which have been rejected,
approved, or defered.

Each proposal can be written as part of a single JIRA story where the story
can be modified after getting feed back. With mailing lists, you need to
pile the most recent thing on the top and hope no one is replying to old
content. The formatting is quite standard and we won't run into weird
formatting issues. People can comment on the issue at hand and not get
lost. People can reference other JIRA tickets which get turned into
clickable links. People can reference other people. This helps when you are
trying to tell one specific person something and not everyone.

JIRA allows you to search for stories. In our case it will be proposals and
we will find an easier time seeing what stage it is in.

Speaking of stages, did everyone know that we are on Swift 4 stage 1? I
didn't I thought we were on swift 3 stage xyz. We can name each board after
the current swift version and stage. Often times a story is not appropriate
for stage 1 and should be discussed again in the next stage. the JIRA board
can be given the current Swift version and stage and anything that needs to
be pushed back can move to a "re-evaluate in next stage" status. Once the
new stage is set, we can simply move the story back in for discussion.

I may not be the best at describing the best parts of JIRA, but i believe
it may make the whole swift evolution process easier.

In summary we should use JIRA because
* Story can be updated.
* No loss in context
* Google searchable
* Story Statuses (i.e. discuss, review, approved, implemented.etc)
* Standard UI
* Stories can reference each other
* Easy sign up
* email support
* attachments

Anyone else +1 JIRA?


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:33 PM Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client. Having to
participate in a web app is a regression in my experience.

Daniel Duan
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Awesome :) Hopefully that will finally convince the people what ‘are
working on this’ to actually make it ;)

I could find some really old threads of mine in just seconds. My mail
client cannot do that job that well.

Cannot wait 襤

-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:03:13, Nate Cook via swift-evolution (
swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:


On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:


On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman
mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.

My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals and
seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how an
alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.

The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM does
public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift team at
Apple has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has benefits in
that it is a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t
mean it is the best option going forward.

Here are some of the things that matter to me:

- Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.

- It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL that
allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do if you
haven’t already been subscribed to the list.

- Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that workflow
(again this inertia is important).

- Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, are a
huge plus.

I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such as
"may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I am not
disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its
justification.  Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and
one isn’t obligated to respond to threads.  Are forums really any less
“intimating”? If so, why is that the case?  Is this simply a statement
about mailing lists not being in vogue?

I do 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client. Having to 
participate in a web app is a regression in my experience.

Daniel Duan
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Awesome :) Hopefully that will finally convince the people what ‘are working 
> on this’ to actually make it ;)
> 
> I could find some really old threads of mine in just seconds. My mail client 
> cannot do that job that well. 
> 
> Cannot wait 襤
> 
> -- 
> Adrian Zubarev
> Sent with Airmail
> 
> Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:03:13, Nate Cook via swift-evolution 
> (swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:
> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
 
 On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
  wrote:
 
 I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman 
 mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
 
 My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals and 
 seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how an 
 alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.
 
 The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM does 
 public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift team at 
 Apple has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has benefits in 
 that it is a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t 
 mean it is the best option going forward.
 
 Here are some of the things that matter to me:
 
 - Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.
 
 - It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL that 
 allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do if you 
 haven’t already been subscribed to the list.
 
 - Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that workflow 
 (again this inertia is important).
 
 - Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, are 
 a huge plus.
 
 I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such 
 as "may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I am 
 not disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its 
 justification.  Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, 
 and one isn’t obligated to respond to threads.  Are forums really any less 
 “intimating”? If so, why is that the case?  Is this simply a statement 
 about mailing lists not being in vogue?
 
 I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is important, 
 as opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live chat, such as 
 the use of Slack the SwiftPM folks have been using, is very useful too, 
 but I don’t want participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing 
 lists feel obligated to respond in real time — that’s simply not the 
 nature of the communication on the lists.
 
 So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not sacred — we can 
 change what we use for our community discussions.  I just want an 
 objective evaluation of the needs the mailing lists are meant to serve, 
 and work from there.  If moving to something like (say) Discourse would be 
 a negative on a critical piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, 
 that would (in my opinion) a bad direction to take.  I’m not saying that 
 is the case, just that this is how I prefer we approach the discussion.
>>> 
>>> I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One 
>>> *specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take 
>>> a look at Discourse’s import scripts and try importing swift-evolution’s 
>>> mailing archives with them. We absolutely do not want to lose history when 
>>> we switch technologies. Do the messages import well? Are threading and 
>>> topics maintained in a reasonable manner? Does Discourse provide effective 
>>> UI for looking into past discussions on some specific topic we’re 
>>> interested in?
>>> 
>>> - Doug
>> 
>> ✋
>> 
>> I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem 
>> dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the 
>> results of an import (using one or two day old data) at this address:
>> http://discourse.natecook.com/
>> 
>> It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some 
>> obvious marks of their mailing list origins. Users can actually claim their 
>> accounts if they do a password reset. However:
>> - it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top out at 100 
>> emails/day
>> - I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think it's the real 
>> deal
>> 
>> I 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Ilya Belenkiy via swift-evolution]

I would love to participate in swift evolution discussions, and I made and
defended one of the proposals for Swift here (SE-0025), but using email for
this is so difficult that I stopped following the list. The only thing that
kept me going with that proposal was that I really really wanted the
change. And in the end I even missed part of a discussion about that (I
stopped following after it was accepted). I wasn't quiet because I no
longer wanted to participate. It was because participating was too
difficult due to email.

I caught this thread completely by accident on twitter.

I really hope that we switch to Discorse or something similar. I'd love to
get back into discussions and contribute. I am sure that there are many
people like me.

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 3:19 PM Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman
> mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
>
> My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals and
> seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how an
> alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.
>
> The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM does
> public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift team at
> Apple has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has benefits in
> that it is a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t
> mean it is the best option going forward.
>
> Here are some of the things that matter to me:
>
> - Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.
>
> - It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL that
> allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do if you
> haven’t already been subscribed to the list.
>
> - Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that workflow
> (again this inertia is important).
>
> - Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, are
> a huge plus.
>
> I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such
> as "may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I am
> not disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its
> justification.  Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and
> one isn’t obligated to respond to threads.  Are forums really any less
> “intimating”? If so, why is that the case?  Is this simply a statement
> about mailing lists not being in vogue?
>
> I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is important,
> as opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live chat, such as the
> use of Slack the SwiftPM folks have been using, is very useful too, but I
> don’t want participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing lists feel
> obligated to respond in real time — that’s simply not the nature of the
> communication on the lists.
>
> So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not sacred — we can
> change what we use for our community discussions.  I just want an objective
> evaluation of the needs the mailing lists are meant to serve, and work from
> there.  If moving to something like (say) Discourse would be a negative on
> a critical piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, that would (in
> my opinion) a bad direction to take.  I’m not saying that is the case, just
> that this is how I prefer we approach the discussion.
>
> Ted
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2017, at 3:18 PM, Ole Begemann via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> Obligatory prior discussion sheds, er, I mean threads:
>
>
> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
>
> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20160725/025692.html
> /
> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20160801/thread.html#25765
>
>
> I haven't followed the previous discussions closely. As someone who mostly
> follows the discussions passively and only rarely posts something to the
> list, I have two major complaints with the current situation:
>
> * The disconnect between the messages in my mail client and their URLs in
> the list archive makes sharing or bookmarking messages a major pain in the
> ass. If it were possible for each message to contain its own permalink in
> the footer, I would be much happier. It seems this feature is available in
> Mailman 3 [1], but the Swift lists seem to be running on Mailman 2.x.
>
> * The web archive has very bad usability. I suppose design is a matter of
> taste, but having the archive organized by week is just wrong. This means
> that readers will regularly miss significant parts of threads that cross
> week boundaries without even noticing it.
>
> I don't like the mailing lists (and hadn't subscribed to any for close to
> a decade before Swift), but fixing the above two points would go 90% of the
> way for me.
>

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution]

Awesome :) Hopefully that will finally convince the people what ‘are working on 
this’ to actually make it ;)

I could find some really old threads of mine in just seconds. My mail client 
cannot do that job that well. 

Cannot wait 襤

-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:03:13, Nate Cook via swift-evolution 
(swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:


On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution 
 wrote:


On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
 wrote:

I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman 
mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.

My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals and 
seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how an 
alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.

The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM does 
public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift team at Apple 
has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has benefits in that it is 
a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t mean it is the 
best option going forward.

Here are some of the things that matter to me:

- Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.

- It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL that 
allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do if you 
haven’t already been subscribed to the list.

- Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that workflow 
(again this inertia is important).

- Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, are a 
huge plus.

I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such as 
"may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I am not 
disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its justification.  
Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and one isn’t obligated 
to respond to threads.  Are forums really any less “intimating”? If so, why is 
that the case?  Is this simply a statement about mailing lists not being in 
vogue?

I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is important, as 
opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live chat, such as the use of 
Slack the SwiftPM folks have been using, is very useful too, but I don’t want 
participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing lists feel obligated to 
respond in real time — that’s simply not the nature of the communication on the 
lists.

So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not sacred — we can change 
what we use for our community discussions.  I just want an objective evaluation 
of the needs the mailing lists are meant to serve, and work from there.  If 
moving to something like (say) Discourse would be a negative on a critical 
piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, that would (in my opinion) a 
bad direction to take.  I’m not saying that is the case, just that this is how 
I prefer we approach the discussion.

I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One 
*specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take a 
look at Discourse’s import scripts and try importing swift-evolution’s mailing 
archives with them. We absolutely do not want to lose history when we switch 
technologies. Do the messages import well? Are threading and topics maintained 
in a reasonable manner? Does Discourse provide effective UI for looking into 
past discussions on some specific topic we’re interested in?

- Doug

✋

I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem dependencies, 
and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the results of an import 
(using one or two day old data) at this address:
http://discourse.natecook.com/

It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some obvious 
marks of their mailing list origins. Users can actually claim their accounts if 
they do a password reset. However:
- it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top out at 100 
emails/day
- I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think it's the real deal

I might have mentioned this before, but I'm strongly in favor of forum-based 
solution over the mailing list (at least for this group), and Discourse seems 
to be the best one running right now (and fairly open to extension and 
customization). I made a new topic here to demonstrate a couple features (code 
blocks and inline images):
http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051

Thanks -
Nate



___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
___
swift-evolution mailing list

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Nate Cook via swift-evolution]

> On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman 
>> mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
>> 
>> My preference is to approach the topic objectively, working from goals and 
>> seeing how the mailing lists are aligning with those goals and how an 
>> alternative, such as Discourse, might do a better job.
>> 
>> The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over of how both LLVM does 
>> public discussion (which is all mailing lists) and how the Swift team at 
>> Apple has used mailing lists for discussion.  That inertia has benefits in 
>> that it is a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t 
>> mean it is the best option going forward.
>> 
>> Here are some of the things that matter to me:
>> 
>> - Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable URLs for archives.
>> 
>> - It is easy to reference other topics with a stable (canonical) URL that 
>> allows you to jump into that other topic easily.  That’s hard to do if you 
>> haven’t already been subscribed to the list.
>> 
>> - Works fine with email clients, for those who want to keep that workflow 
>> (again this inertia is important).
>> 
>> - Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity in communication, are a 
>> huge plus.
>> 
>> I’d like to understand more the subjective comments on this thread, such as 
>> "may intimidate newcomers”.  This feels very subjective, and while I am not 
>> disagreeing with that statement I don’t fully understand its justification.  
>> Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and one isn’t 
>> obligated to respond to threads.  Are forums really any less “intimating”? 
>> If so, why is that the case?  Is this simply a statement about mailing lists 
>> not being in vogue?
>> 
>> I do also think the asynchronous nature of the mailing lists is important, 
>> as opposed to discussions feeling like a live chat.  Live chat, such as the 
>> use of Slack the SwiftPM folks have been using, is very useful too, but I 
>> don’t want participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing lists feel 
>> obligated to respond in real time — that’s simply not the nature of the 
>> communication on the lists.
>> 
>> So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not sacred — we can change 
>> what we use for our community discussions.  I just want an objective 
>> evaluation of the needs the mailing lists are meant to serve, and work from 
>> there.  If moving to something like (say) Discourse would be a negative on a 
>> critical piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, that would (in my 
>> opinion) a bad direction to take.  I’m not saying that is the case, just 
>> that this is how I prefer we approach the discussion.
> 
> I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very promising. One 
> *specific* way in which a motivated individual could help would be to take a 
> look at Discourse’s import scripts 
>  
> and try importing swift-evolution’s mailing archives with them. We absolutely 
> do not want to lose history when we switch technologies. Do the messages 
> import well? Are threading and topics maintained in a reasonable manner? Does 
> Discourse provide effective UI for looking into past discussions on some 
> specific topic we’re interested in?
> 
>   - Doug

✋

I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked gem dependencies, 
and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you can see the results of an import 
(using one or two day old data) at this address:
http://discourse.natecook.com/

It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they bear some obvious 
marks of their mailing list origins. Users can actually claim their accounts if 
they do a password reset. However:
- it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top out at 100 
emails/day
- I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think it's the 
real deal

I might have mentioned this before, but I'm strongly in favor of forum-based 
solution over the mailing list (at least for this group), and Discourse seems 
to be the best one running right now (and fairly open to extension and 
customization). I made a new topic here to demonstrate a couple features (code 
blocks and inline images):
http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051

Thanks -
Nate



___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Discussion] mailing list alternative

[Jean-Daniel via swift-evolution]

> Le 26 janv. 2017 à 00:34, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution 
>  a écrit :
> 
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 1:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I have no problem with the project moving to forums instead of the Mailman 
>> mailing lists we have now — if it is the right set of tradeoffs.
> 
> 
> I like and prefer the status quo, particularly for Swift Evolution.
> 
> * The mailing lists are web searchable and provide a permanent public record. 
> My personal mail archives formed from list traffic are even more searchable 
> because all the data is on my computer. 
> 
> * Gmane was a painful lesson learned on why it's so important that the tools 
> be completely owned and controlled from swift.org . It's 
> easy enough (although not perfect) to grab a link from http://lists.swift.org 
>  archives for sharing. At most you're searching 
> through one week.

AFAIK you can host your own discours sever.

> * Topic discoverability is excellent. Each day, I need only scan the subject 
> lines and know what's being discussed and how recently. I flag what interests 
> me, archive the rest. When a subject that I previously archived as not 
> interesting starts gathering momentum, I see its traffic increase. I can make 
> a determination immediately about whether I want to continue reading.
> 
> * There is little thread-drift and off-topic chatter. List members are 
> extremely responsible when it comes to updating subject lines or starting new 
> threads as needed. The mailing list discourages purely social banter.
> 
> If anything, I have minor suggestions on how to improve announcements since 
> they sometimes skip SE-Announce or have incorrect links, etc. If anyone wants 
> my opinion on that, please contact me directly off-list.
> 
> -- E
> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

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