t-and-f: Re: Defining Olympic moment

[Harry Welten]

Title: Re: Defining Olympic  moment





 Willy Beaman Wrote 


  >400m
  >Cathy - the defining moment of the Olympic Games.  Aboriginal flag makes the loop.    
  >The music plays, and the most endearing image of any Olympic Games is burned into  
  >our minds. 


One of the more defining recent moments was the victory lap of Derarta Tulu and
Elana Meyer after the 10K in Barcelona. This was during the turbulent changing
times in South Africa. The South Africa issue had more impact on the world stage
than the aborinigal plights in Australia. (Don't get me wrong, I am not
diminishing their issues in any ways, but they are more local. We have similar
issues here in Canada, but it is usually not world news.)


...Harry Welten,
   e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   ESN 395-4943 / 613-765-4943.

Re: Re: t-and-f: flo-jo

[Runtenkm]

I don't know. Which event did he compete in?
Re: Flojo. I can't see either side swaying the other in this argument at this point 
barring a confession from Flojo (unlikely) or Al (possibly less likely).
Steve S.

t-and-f: A new "drug" for better running...

[McDonald, Craig Richard]

Apples and Your Air Supply  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   
An apple a day . . . could help you breathe easier. 
It's true. Researchers in London found that study participants who ate five
or more apples a week had significantly better lung function than those who
ate none, regardless of whether they smoked or exercised. Another study
revealed similar findings and also suggested that an antioxidant flavonoid
called quercetin, which apples have in abundance, may be responsible for the
effect. 

Above from realage.com... maybe the Kenyans eat lots of apples or an
equivalent.

Craig

FW: t-and-f: Comments On/After Berlin

[Bettwy, Bob]

Posted For Willy (at his request)!

I am a tad surprised by the dearth of comments about the impending politics
in the USA men's 4x100 relay.

Bob Bettwy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Director - Program Control
Washington Group
SRS Technologies
(703) 351-7266


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 11:38 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: t-and-f: Comments On/After Berlin


The reasons you gave for resistance are the silly preconceived notions that
have lead to these ridiculous battles about relays.  It is a big deal to
talk of SMTC in track circles, and the tremendous exploits of its members
over the years.  But the mention of HSI seems to bring the worst out of
many.  Please explain to me?  I remember the reaming of Darrell when he used
to post here, and I often wondered what was the reason for the venom.  I now
wonder what is the reason for the resistance to what many have begged for on
this very list, a team that has practiced together and knows each other.  I
also, recall a campaign for team competition at the trials.  Well here is
the fastest "team" to ever be assembled outside of the national team, and
you have reservations because they MIGHT tell you about THEIR
accomplishment.
I say good for them.  If "they" can bring home the gold for the good ol' US
of A, I am all for it.  I do not have to worry about squabbles over anchor,
or who wants to run what leg.  
BTW, where I live has very little to do with who i am a fan of.  Because I
love the dallas Cowboys does that mean I "obviously live in Dallas"?  Who am
I?  I am William E. Beaman, never been called Bill, I will leave that
moniker to Bubba in Washington.

William E.

Re: FW: t-and-f: Comments On/After Berlin

[RunrCoach]

In a message dated 9/5/00 6:28:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< I am a tad surprised by the dearth of comments about the impending politics
 in the USA men's 4x100 relay. >>

The shit will hit the fan soon enough.

A.C.

Re: t-and-f: day 11 wit and wisdom

[Dave Johnson]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:08:03 EDT
Subject: t-and-f: day 11 wit and wisdom
To:
>
>New choice . . . JOHNSON.
>Why?
>Started (?) the sunglasses craze . . . a ridiculous trend that has 'athletes'
>all
>over the world parading around $200 eyewear indoors, posing for camera ops a
>la


---

Allan Johnson was a generation removed from starting the sunglasses craze.

As I remember, and I may be starting late--help me, Ed Grant--it was
Charlie Greene who made sunglasses a t&f fashion statement.  That was in
the mid-'60s, before "fashion statements" existed.

Greene wore what he called re-entry shields.  (If you only know of space
trips through NASA shuttle launches, ask your parents.)  From Greene, the
Speed City sprint group in San Jose picked up the look, including Tommie
Smith, Lee Evans, John Carlos, Peanut Gaines, Sam Davis and about another
half dozen sprinters there.  (See a great photo of the group in a spring(?)
1968 issue of T&FN.

After that crew, we had a bunch of dull sprinters in the U.S., we lost the
look, and the next time I remember sunglasses making an impact was in the
1984 Oly Trials in LA, when a javelin thrower, Duncan Atwood, wore them to
avoid getting blinded by the sun as it set behind the rim of LA Memorial
Coliseum.

Dave Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: t-and-f: re: Time to start talking about the games !!

[Conway]

Wow ... I guess I've arrived if there are those who want to be anti me ...
Cool ... As for Inger there is the possibility that she could win .. She's
been right there before with Marion in both events .. And on any given day
.. Who knows .. I think she has a better shot in the 200 (more time to
overcome a mistake or two) .. And even though Marion runs a much better 400
Inger actually seems to be stronger at the end of the 200 than Marion .. As
for the men's 800 I think it is Kipketer's to lose .. But Guerni will push
him for all he is worth and so will Bucher .. All three know how to race and
the race will make for great theater ...

Conway Hill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: t-and-f: re: Time to start talking about the games !!


> Geez!  One post, and I get all this flak.  Some seem to rate HSI right up
there with the Flo-Jo topic.  My apologies, I was only trying to some
interest flowing to detract from the drug talk.  More than one person has
been willing to stake money on the contrary to Inger Miller winning a gold
medal in either sprint.  I must be missing something in the water.
> Let me see, I am to be pro- Maurice, pro- Marion, pro- distance, anti-
Conway, hush on HSI, believe that Flo-Jo was just as dirty as Ben, and care
about a pretend series based upon the new phenom known as " real TV".  Did I
get it all right?  Any add-ons or points I missed?
> I stand by my Inger prediction, just because I am a contrary person.  I
have never liked going with the masses.
> I have a good query for you all, who wins the 800m men?  Kipketer is
struggling back to form but can he do it in time, and hold off the young
upstarts.  The Swiss and the Kenyan pose a huge challenge, and it shall be
good.  I am putting my money on the Dane, with the Swiss for a dramatic 2nd,
the Kenyan 3rd, all within .2 sec of each other.  Somewhere in the range of
1:42.2.
>
> William E. Beaman

Re: t-and-f: The Relay team

[LTricard]

In a message dated 09/02/2000 1:35:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< > By the way, has a "club" team ever run faster?  And has a "club" ever 
held
 the world record?
 
 
 HSI's 37.65 is the fastest by a club eclipsing the 37.79 run by Santa Monica
 in 1991 & 1994 ... Not aware of any club holding WR in the auto timed era ..
  >>
i know you guys are talking men...as usual...but i do have to mention that 
tennessee state university (hudson, jones, williams, rudolph) in rome ran 
44.5 for a wr
and...it was an all-tennessee state university team in 1956, getting the 
bronze in melbourne
and in 1964..an almost all tennessee state team getting the silver...
can you top this!

Re: FW: t-and-f: Comments On/After Berlin

[Kurt Bray]

>over the years.  But the mention of HSI seems to bring the worst out of
>many.  Please explain to me?  I remember the reaming of Darrell when he 
>used
>to post here, and I often wondered what was the reason for the venom.


It's the flag.  There is something a little bit over the top about taking a 
victory lap waving a flag that displays a logo celebrating your business 
agent.

Kurt Bray
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t-and-f: Track Fashion (was: day 11 wit and wisdom)

[Kurt Bray]

Dave says:

>Allan Johnson was a generation removed from starting the sunglasses craze.
>
>As I remember, and I may be starting late--help me, Ed Grant--it was
>Charlie Greene who made sunglasses a t&f fashion statement.  That was in
>the mid-'60s, before "fashion statements" existed.

Greene in the mid-60s?  How about those Italians in the mid-50s?  I don't 
think I've ever seen a picture of Olympic champion Livio Berruti where he 
WASN'T wearing shades.  He probably wore them at night.

Kurt Bray

Off-topic PS:  For those of you who enjoyed my appearance on Jeopardy 6 
years ago and David Honea's performance on "Millionaire" last year, I'm 
keeping the list tradition alive with another quiz show appearance.  You can 
watch me compete on "Win Ben Stein's Money" next Tuesday, Sept 12, where I 
get to try for the stupendous sum of $5000!  It will be shown on the cable 
channel Comedy Central at 7:30 PM with a repeat at 11:30 PM (6:30 and 10:30 
Central), but check your local listing.

As I did with Jeopardy, I will sent out (by private e-mail) pre-game 
introduction and post-game analysis the day of the broadcast.  If you wish 
to receive these please reply by private e-mail, and I will add you to the 
distribution list.  I won't tell you in advance how I did, but I will say 
that there are both high points and low points. And since it has nothing to 
do with track I will make no further posts about this show on the list.
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Re: t-and-f: Comments On/After Berlin

[Conway]

On Tuesday, September 05, 2000 6:22 AM Bob Bettwy posted for Willy Beaman:


> Posted For Willy (at his request)!
>
> I am a tad surprised by the dearth of comments about the impending
politics
> in the USA men's 4x100 relay.

I think it is because we have become so used to it happening that it is no
longer surprising .. I am sure that most are probably waiting to hear what
the arguments are this time .. Although I think we know what they are going
to be .. I do think though that there is a much better argument for keeping
the HSI squad intact however, than there were for running an all SMTC squad
.. At the Trials HSI swept the 100 meters (Greene, Johnson, Drummond) so
they already had 3/4 of the team as they crossed the finish line .. The only
touchy one would be Williams as he finished in the 6th position, not 4th or
5th .. However we use a relay pool to pick from and not simply the first 4
across the line .. And Williams has shown himself to be fit and fast with
only Greene being his true superior on the circuit .. Couple that with the
fact that the squad has both run fast times AND shown the ability to handle
the stick well and I think you have a good argument for keeping them
together as the national squad .. While SMTC had a fast relay squad in 92,
they had not dominated the Trials 100 the way that HSI did .. SMTC had
Burrell in the 100, Marsh in the 200, Lewis in the long jump, and Heard was
in nothing .. So they are two totally different arguments as the HSI members
have actually met the requirements for really inclusion ...

>
> The reasons you gave for resistance are the silly preconceived notions
that
> have lead to these ridiculous battles about relays.  It is a big deal to
> talk of SMTC in track circles, and the tremendous exploits of its members
> over the years.  But the mention of HSI seems to bring the worst out of
> many.  Please explain to me?

SMTC was lead by an icon in the sport - Carl Lewis .. And this is sport that
regards its icons as demigod-like ... Therefore the exploits of SMTC were
viewed as part of the lore of the sport .. It was "the great Carl Lewis" ..
"The trading of the world record" (100 meters) .. The outfits .. The
anticipation of what were they going to do next .. HSI has no icons - yet ..
So I think many see them as "pretenders to the throne" .. What have they
done type of attitude .. And as much as I like HSI, aside from Maurice they
haven't had the same type of accomplishments - yet ..  This should be their
first real stage - Ato was there in 96 but was viewed as all mouth, and
Inger was there as well but not really ready .. This could be their first
step towards making historical impact on the sport .. Cause we all know that
the only stage that matters is the Olympics in the minds of most ..

 Conway Hill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: t-and-f: A new "drug" for better running...

[Dan Kaplan]

--- "McDonald, Craig Richard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Another study revealed similar findings and also suggested that an
> antioxidant flavonoid called quercetin, which apples have in abundance,
> may be responsible for the effect.

I believe Quercetin is a common herbal allergy medication.  Could it go
the way (or has it already?) of banned substances like ginseng and ma
huang (ephedrine)?  Banning apples, now that would go over well...

Dan


=
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t-and-f: A thought...

[Justin Clouder]

Hi All

Several people have commented that the one thing which we don't seem to
discuss on this list is actual results.

I have a feeling that's because very few results are posted to the list
anymore. I know that it is ever easier to look stuff up on the web, but it's
a hassle to then note the important/interesting performances and write an
e-mail. A few years ago the results from a meeting were invariably in my
inbox when I got to work the next morning, meaning I could quickly reply,
singling out and commenting on interesting stuff. Indeed, that was one of my
main reasons for subscribing.

In fact, so uninformed have I become that I find out almost all my
international results and news from Athletics International, Peter Matthews
and Randall Northam's excellent weekly results sheet. Sadly, that's always a
week or two after the event, making it too late to comment to the list.

Just a thought.

Justin


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Re: t-and-f: day 11 wit and wisdom

[JimRTimes]

In a message dated 9/5/00 10:42:12 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< 
and the next time I remember sunglasses making an impact was in the
1984 Oly Trials in LA, when a javelin thrower, Duncan Atwood, wore them to
avoid getting blinded by the sun as it set behind the rim of LA Memorial
Coliseum.
 >>
yes, I recal that as being a functional use of shades. Let's not forget the 
distance runners who helped bring back the look - especially Lynn Jennings 
and Patti Sue Plumer. Most ridiculous thing I can recal was Patti Sue wearing 
orange-tinted Oakley for a 3,000 at the Garden - well, maybe those TV lights 
WERE bright.

Jim Gerweck
Running Times

t-and-f: Ginseng

[Mike Moyes]

Does anyone know for sure if ginseng is in fact banned.  The banned list 
that I have has no mention of it.  Since there are different variations to 
it, would a ban on ginseng pertain to all of them or simply a type.

Mike

>I believe Quercetin is a common herbal allergy medication.  Could it go
>the way (or has it already?) of banned substances like ginseng and ma
>huang (ephedrine)?  Banning apples, now that would go over well...
>
>Dan

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t-and-f: Trinity Gray 1:44.91

[Dave Cahill]

Didn't anyone else notice the PR by Gray?
Is this the first sub 1:45 this year by the 
United States?
Too bad he is not going to Syndey...

Dave Cahill
Greater Boston Track Club


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Re: t-and-f: Ginseng

[Dan Kaplan]

Oops, I don't think ginseng was what I meant to write, but I forget now
what exactly I had in mind...

Dan

--- Mike Moyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone know for sure if ginseng is in fact banned.  The banned list
> that I have has no mention of it.  Since there are different variations
> to it, would a ban on ginseng pertain to all of them or simply a type.
> 
> Mike
> 
> >I believe Quercetin is a common herbal allergy medication.  Could it go
> >the way (or has it already?) of banned substances like ginseng and ma
> >huang (ephedrine)?  Banning apples, now that would go over well...
> >
> >Dan


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t-and-f: IAAF list of top marathoners

[Everett Murdock]

The IAAF recently posted the top 100 performances in the marathon for
this year.  It can be found at:
http://www.iaaf.org/Results/index.asp?Filename=/Results/lists/2000/outdoor/G/index.html

In looking over the list, I can find only one American, Rod Dehaven
(near the bottom of the list).  Is this possible?  Scanning the list, I
see just about every other country represented, even small countries
like Ireland, Korea, and Poland.  This seems like a wild deviation from
what would be statistically predicted, given the size of the US and the
popularity of marathons here.  Am I missing something?

Re: t-and-f: Trinity Gray 1:44.91

[grenier]

At 10:48 AM 9/5/00 -0700, Dave Cahill wrote:
Yes, he ran a 1:45.10 earlier. So he has the top two US times.

george
>Didn't anyone else notice the PR by Gray?
>Is this the first sub 1:45 this year by the 
>United States?
>Too bad he is not going to Syndey...
>
>Dave Cahill
>Greater Boston Track Club
>
>
>__
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
>http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
>

Re: t-and-f: IAAF list of top marathoners

[alan tobin]

Nope, not missing a thing. Just the pure and simple fact that American 
Marathoners as a whole aren't very good when compared to the world. There is 
no way to dance around the issue, the results are black and white. Now the 
questions becomes why? and how can American Marathoners as a whole once 
again become competitive with the world? Instead of track athletes getting 
old and slow and deciding to move up to the marathon where speed is of less 
importance what should happen is young athletes out of college taking up the 
marathon right off the bat. Be bold, be brave, run 200 miles a week, become 
experienced in the marathon before father time slows you down and introduces 
you to Mr. Chronic Injury.

Alan


>From: Everett Murdock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Everett Murdock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: t-and-f: IAAF list of top marathoners
>Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 10:58:48 -0700
>
>The IAAF recently posted the top 100 performances in the marathon for
>this year.  It can be found at:
>http://www.iaaf.org/Results/index.asp?Filename=/Results/lists/2000/outdoor/G/index.html
>
>In looking over the list, I can find only one American, Rod Dehaven
>(near the bottom of the list).  Is this possible?  Scanning the list, I
>see just about every other country represented, even small countries
>like Ireland, Korea, and Poland.  This seems like a wild deviation from
>what would be statistically predicted, given the size of the US and the
>popularity of marathons here.  Am I missing something?
>
>

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t-and-f: SURVIVOR--day 13

[GHTFNedit]

Thanks to a spate of new participaints who made day 12 the busiest day since 
the first one. Those who wish to participate now that we're down to just 
(drum roll.) 4 names; you've got 24 hours (i.e., until noon PDT 
Wednesday) to cut yet another Sacto champion from the dinner table.

If you didn't vote previously, doesn't mean you can't vote now. And no, you 
don't have to say the same thing two days in a row.

Here's the 4 remaining potential dinner guests to choose from:

Allen Johnson
Charles Austin
Adam Nelson
Lance Deal


recap: day 1 eliminated Seaman & Mo, day 2 Greer &  MJ, day 3 Gabe & Everett, 
day 4 Lister, day 5 Howard, day 6 Capel, day 7 Meb & Lojo, day 8 Taylor, day 
9 pappas, day 10 Setliff, day 11 Dobert, day 12 Goucher

gh

t-and-f: SURVIVOR--down to 4

[GHTFNedit]

Adam Goucher a solid choice for the latest whacking, which made sense after 
being No. 2 the day before and No.3 the day before that.

Based on that kind of progression, the next cut will be .  (nah, you 
gotta do it).

gh

ps--only one bit of wit and wisdom, not worth separate post by itself.
you gotta cut Deal because he's left handed and would screw the seating
arrangements up,

t-and-f: Trinity Gray

[Stephen J. Podgajny]

He also ran a nice 600 m. behind Longo's recent European record. I don't
have the post handy but I wonder where the time might have landed on the all
time US list.

Steve Podgajny

--

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 11:57:29 -0700
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: t-and-f: Trinity Gray 1:44.91

At 10:48 AM 9/5/00 -0700, Dave Cahill wrote:
Yes, he ran a 1:45.10 earlier. So he has the top two US times.

george
>Didn't anyone else notice the PR by Gray?
>Is this the first sub 1:45 this year by the
>United States?
>Too bad he is not going to Syndey...
>
>Dave Cahill
>Greater Boston Track Club

Re: t-and-f: SURVIVOR--day 13

[James Templeton]

.any chance of giving this a rest??  The right forum?

JT


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Thanks to a spate of new participaints who made day 12 the busiest day since
> the first one. Those who wish to participate now that we're down to just
> (drum roll.) 4 names; you've got 24 hours (i.e., until noon PDT
> Wednesday) to cut yet another Sacto champion from the dinner table.
> 
> If you didn't vote previously, doesn't mean you can't vote now. And no, you
> don't have to say the same thing two days in a row.
> 
> Here's the 4 remaining potential dinner guests to choose from:
> 
> Allen Johnson
> Charles Austin
> Adam Nelson
> Lance Deal
> 
> recap: day 1 eliminated Seaman & Mo, day 2 Greer &  MJ, day 3 Gabe & Everett,
> day 4 Lister, day 5 Howard, day 6 Capel, day 7 Meb & Lojo, day 8 Taylor, day
> 9 pappas, day 10 Setliff, day 11 Dobert, day 12 Goucher
> 
> gh

t-and-f: Re: Track Fashion (was: day 11 wit and wisdom)

[Dave Johnson]

Kurt Bray wins Dave Johnson's money, or what there is of it.

Kurt is most assuredly correct about Berruti, and I believe Eddy Ottoz had
also taken to sunglasses before Charlie Greene started the look in the US.
-
>Dave says:
>
>>Allan Johnson was a generation removed from starting the sunglasses craze.
>>
>>As I remember, and I may be starting late--help me, Ed Grant--it was
>>Charlie Greene who made sunglasses a t&f fashion statement.  That was in
>>the mid-'60s, before "fashion statements" existed.
>
>Greene in the mid-60s?  How about those Italians in the mid-50s?  I don't
>think I've ever seen a picture of Olympic champion Livio Berruti where he
>WASN'T wearing shades.  He probably wore them at night.
>
>Kurt Bray
>
>Off-topic PS:  For those of you who enjoyed my appearance on Jeopardy 6
>years ago and David Honea's performance on "Millionaire" last year, I'm
>keeping the list tradition alive with another quiz show appearance.  You can
>watch me compete on "Win Ben Stein's Money" next Tuesday, Sept 12,

Dave Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Does college hurt our marathoners? (Was: Re: t-and-f: IAAFlist of top marathoners)

[Benji Durden]

The Jr. Colleges had a marathon championship for a while. I remember
Allegeny (sp?) won the championship in the late 70's.

bd
-- 
Benji Durden
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


> From: William Bahnfleth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: William Bahnfleth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:59:47 -0400
> To: Track list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Does college hurt our marathoners?  (Was: Re: t-and-f: IAAF list
> of top marathoners)
> 
> I have a vague recollection that there was a marathon championship back in
> the late 70s or early 80s in one of the smaller college or JUCO
> organizations.  Maybe I'm just mis-remembering that there were collegiate
> team entries in an open championship.  Can anybody out there help on this one?
> 

RE: t-and-f: Trinity Gray

[Peter Larsson]

Here are all-time US top-10 for 600m

1  1.12,81Johnny GrayUSA 60-06-191
Santa Monica1986-05-24
2  1.13,80Earl Jones USA 64-07-172
Santa Monica1986-05-24
3  1.14,15David Mack USA 61-05-303
Santa Monica1986-05-24
   1.14,16Johnny GrayUSA 60-06-191
Sacramento  1984-07-21
4  1.14,3ALee Evans  USA 47-02-251
Echo Summit 1968-08-31
>5  1.14,48Trinity Gray   USA 78-04-032
Rovereto2000-08-30
6  1.14,6ALarry JamesUSA 47-11-062
Echo Summit 1968-08-31
7  1.14,8AMark WinzenriedUSA 49-10-133
Echo Summit 1968-08-31
8  1.14,84James Robinson USA 54-08-272
Sacramento  1984-07-21
9  1.14,9 Martin McGrady USA 46-04-201
Melbourne   1970-03-17
10 1.15,14John Marshall  USA 63-11-053
Sacramento  1984-07-21

taken from http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_600ok.htm

Peter Larsson
Trollhattan Sweden
Track & Field all-time performances homepage
http://www.algonet.se/~pela2
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Stephen J. Podgajny
Sent: den 5 september 2000 22:30
To: Track & Field List
Subject: t-and-f: Trinity Gray


He also ran a nice 600 m. behind Longo's recent European record. I don't
have the post handy but I wonder where the time might have landed on the all
time US list.

Steve Podgajny

--

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 11:57:29 -0700
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: t-and-f: Trinity Gray 1:44.91

At 10:48 AM 9/5/00 -0700, Dave Cahill wrote:
Yes, he ran a 1:45.10 earlier. So he has the top two US times.

george
>Didn't anyone else notice the PR by Gray?
>Is this the first sub 1:45 this year by the
>United States?
>Too bad he is not going to Syndey...
>
>Dave Cahill
>Greater Boston Track Club

RE: t-and-f: Re: Track Fashion (was: day 11 wit and wisdom)

[THOMAS,Graham]

Even before Berutti, didn't 1948 women's multiple gold medallist/concert
pianist Micheline Ostermayer also compete in dark glasses?

Regards - Graham Thomas - http://homepages.go.com/~oztrack

-Original Message-
From: Dave Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, 6 September 2000 8:49 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: t-and-f: Re: Track Fashion (was: day 11 wit and wisdom)

Kurt Bray wins Dave Johnson's money, or what there is of it.

Kurt is most assuredly correct about Berruti, and I believe Eddy Ottoz had
also taken to sunglasses before Charlie Greene started the look in the US.

Re: t-and-f: Comments On/After Berlin

[WillyBeaman]

While we ponder the foolishness of the powers that be, we have missed an interesting 
issue.  The 4x400m relay.  Who will run the final?  Let's say it is the top 3, and 
then who?  I have even money on Angelo Taylor.  For 2 year snow he has been tauted and 
almost groomed for the relay spot.  A definite talent, but why him over the 400m men.  
Angelo is a good leg for high 43s, but so are 3 other members of relay pool.  I see no 
real benefit with him, while he costs us nothing in the same vein.  
Last year i thought we sorely missed a decent lead of leg, and I saw that problem 
result from the insistance that Angelo be included in the final.
Funny, huh?  Arguing about a relay that has lost once in the last umpteen years.

W. B.

Re: t-and-f: re: Time to start talking about the games !!

[WillyBeaman]

Let's test ourselves.  2nd and 3rd for the 400m, men and women.

Men
Antonio P - experience and will get him past the field in teh last 10 m
Alvin Harrison - been here before, as long as he avoids lane 1 this year he will 
contend for the silver

Women 
Latasha C. - no one else has shown me anything otherwise
Brit - forgive my brain fart I cannot call her name, i think it is Mercy.  I figured 
it is time a promising Brit actually came through

1500
El G' wins with usual ease, surprisingly dominanting a field many have figured to be 
challenging.
Said-Seifi - 22 and hungry, and Algerian.  Will some American please come break up 
this North African relay.
Lagat - another young gun, has had a terrific season.  He will follow El G' until his 
death, giving said the silver

5000
Haile - the elusive gold will be his this year.  Is he running?

Steeple
Kenya - all 3 places and you pick the name, it will have a kip or a keter in it 
somewhere, seriously!

William Beaman

Re: t-and-f: Comments On/After Berlin

[Conway]

On Tuesday, September 05, 2000 4:23 PM Willy Beaman said:

> While we ponder the foolishness of the powers that be, we have missed an
interesting issue.  The 4x400m relay.  Who will run the final?  Let's say it
is the top 3, and then who?  I have even money on Angelo Taylor.  For 2 year
snow he has been tauted and almost groomed for the relay spot.  A definite
talent, but why him over the 400m men.  Angelo is a good leg for high 43s,
but so are 3 other members of relay pool.  I see no real benefit with him,
while he costs us nothing in the same vein.
> Last year i thought we sorely missed a decent lead of leg, and I saw that
problem result from the insistance that Angelo be included in the final.
> Funny, huh?  Arguing about a relay that has lost once in the last umpteen
years.

Actually Angelo is one of our best 400 runners right now .. Outside of MJ
you never know who is going to go sub 45 these days .. Let alone talk about
running mid to low 43 relay .. I still think we will win the 4x4 in Sydney
.. But unless something happens real fast I don't think they will approach
the WR ... MJ & Angelo would be the only sure bets for mid to low 43's ..
Not that either of the Harrison's or Pettigrew aren't capable .. They just
haven't shown it these past few weeks .. Hopefully they are getting ready to
peak ..

Conway Hill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fw: t-and-f: Age group Road Records

[mike fanelli]

- Original Message -
From: mike fanelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Brian McGuire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: t-and-f: Age group Road Records


> Try Ryan Lamppa at the USATF Road Running Information Center
www.usaldr.org
>
>
> Mike Fanelli
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Brian McGuire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: T n F List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 5:00 PM
> Subject: t-and-f: Age group Road Records
>
>
> > Does anyone know where I can find world and national age-group records
for
> > road races?
> > Brian McGuire
> >
>
>

Re: t-and-f: re: Time to start talking about the games !!

[GHTFNedit]

In a message dated 9/5/00 16:17:21, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< 

5000

Haile - the elusive gold will be his this year.  Is he running? >>

definitely not (far as we've been told)

gh

Re: t-and-f: Brussels 10k

[GHTFNedit]

In a message dated 9/5/00 11:24:25, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< In such an important race is there no video camera fixed on the finish so
each athlete could be seen and counted on each lap? Will there be one in
Sydney?  >>

i believe that at all WC meets, at least, the IAAF makes sure it has tape of 
all the races.

t-and-f: track (err, field) on TV tonite

[GHTFNedit]

how come nobody gave advance warning that the Ultimate Heavy Athletics World 
Championships would be on The Deuce  on tuesday night?

Direct from Fredericksburg, VA, before a crowd of dozens, a bunch of whales 
chucking things like the 28lb hammer (one-handed), 22lb hammer (on a stick), 
caber, etc, etc.

The pipe music was cool.

gh

RE: t-and-f: Selected results from Germany

[drew armiger]

done!

--- "Keith, Steven" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>Drew,
>   Would it be possible for you to email the t&f list with the dates of
>our 2001 home track meets and also some contact information? I am listing
>the dates below and you can use my email and phone (915) 747 6840. Thanks.
>
>March 31   Springtime Invitational
>April 14   UTEP Invitational (formerly Sierra Providence)
>May 5  UTEP Twilight
>
>   We are looking for Division 1 programs with full squads, not
>necessarily combined men and women. Some travel and/or hotel may be
>available (to be determined case by case). They can also contact Coach
>Kitchens at (915) 747 5819. Thanks again.
>
>   Steve
>


==
"Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him, impale him with 
monster-truck force . . . " - Cake

_
i-run.com - your running log
A free online running log 

Re: RE: RE: t-and-f: Austrailian continental marks

[GHTFNedit]

In a message dated 9/4/00 20:27:11, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< 

When Marita Koch ran her 47.60 on 6 October 1985 and took nearly half a

second off the old world mark, the temperature in Canberra was around 22

degrees (71F)with a 15km/hour wind prevailing.  The forecast had been for a

maximum temperature of 18 degrees (64F).  The DDR women also set a 4x100m WR

on this 71F day.


This is not so different from likely conditions in Sydney - so I'd still

like to think a 400m WR for MJ is not impossible. >>

Note that Canberra has 581m of altitude, which is worth a few 100ths.

gh

t-and-f: Most members of the same club at the Olympic games?

[Matthew H Fraser Moat]

At the last count, there are 18 paid-up members of the British Milers' Club
(BMC) who have been selected by their national federations to represent
their country in Sydney.

Can any other club, first or second claim, rival this statistic?

Matthew Fraser Moat
Vice Chairman BMC

t-and-f: BMC Nike Grand Prix at Scotstoun, Glasgow, UK, 3rd September 2000

[Matthew H Fraser Moat]

Highlight of the day was a new personal best by junior Stefan Beumer, dob
28/04/81, which must make him one of the favourites for the World Junior
Championships.  And yes, Allen Graffin did run three times, the 800m C race,
the 3,000m and the 1,500m 'A' race, all within two hours, whilst his
Sydney-bound brother moved down a distance and beat a host of specialist
800m runners.

M8001rA Andrew Graffin  Tonbridge   1:49.15
2rA Bradley Donkin  Birchfield  1:49.28
3rA Raymond Adams U20   Lagan Valley1:49.33
4rA John Rogers Sale1:49.61
5rA Stuart Bailey U23   Sale1:49.83
6rA James Mayo  Army1:50.17
7rA Andrew Brown U23City of Edinburgh   1:50.89
8rA Brendan O’Shea IRE  Ireland 1:56.87

1rB Stuart Reid Pitreavie   1:50.51
2rB Greig McEwan U20Dunfermline 1:51.48
3rB Chris Watson U20Victoria Park   1:51.63
4rB Karl Byrne IRE  Dublin  1:52.70

1rC Allen Graffin   Tonbridge  
 1:51.84

M1500   1rA Stefan Beumer HOL U20   Holland 3:41.15
2rA Angus Maclean U23   Team Solent 3:41.19
3rA Allen Graffin   Tonbridge   3:46.92
4rA Andrew Renfree  Shaftesbury 3:47.36
5rA Stephen Sharp   TVH 3:49.26
6rA Maarten van de Heuven HOL U20   Holland 3:50.74

M3000   1   Allen Graffin   Tonbridge   8:15.44
2   Andy Caine  Tynedale8:16.60
3   Stephen Sharp   TVH 8:22.26

W8001rA Jennifer Ward U23   City of Glasgow 2:05.10
2rA Rachel Newcombe Liverpool   2:05.69
3rA Joanna Ross U20 Victoria Park   2:06.38
4rA Alice ButlerWakefield Harriers  2:08.62
5rA Kate Reed U20   Bristol 2:09.50
6rA Sally Evans Sale2:09.99

W1500   1rA Shirley Griffiths   Wakefield   4:20.16
2rA Maria Lynch IRE U23 Ireland 4:22.99
3rA Julie Mitchell  Jarrow  4:28.50
4rA Maria Sharp TVH 4:30.70




Overall standings

Athletes' best four out of five meeting scores to count

1   Stephen Sharp   131 [26 - 28 - 24 - 32 - 45]
2   Justin Swift-Smith  125 [37 - 32 - 33 - 23 - 0 ]
3   Sally Evans 112 [26 - 31 - 30 - 0  - 25]
3   Allen Graffin   112 [0  - 0  - 29 - 35 - 48]
5   Rachel Newcombe 97  [30 - 0  - 0  - 33 - 34]
6   Kate Reed U20   95  [12 - 25 - 24 - 19 - 27]
7   Maria Sharp 86  [0  - 28 - 10 - 23 - 25]
8   John Rogers 81  [16 - 15 - 20 - 0  - 30]
9   Neil Speaight U23   79  [29 - 20 - 0  - 30 - 0 ]
10  James Thie U23  76  [31 - 20 - 0  - 25 - 0 ]
11  Maria Lynch IRE U23 75  [18 - 0  - 26 - 0  - 31]
11  * Charles Makau KEN 75  [0  - 35 - 0  - 40 - 0 ]
13  Stuart Bailey U23   74  [2  - 0  - 18 - 25 - 29]
13  Karim Bouchamia ALG U23 74  [29 - 17 - 7  - 21 - 0 ]
13  * Natalie Lewis U20 74  [21 - 28 - 0  - 25 - 0 ]
16  Andrew Graffin  73  [0  - 0  - 38 - 0  - 35]
17  * Georgie Clarke AUS U1772  [36 - 0  - 36 - 0  - 0 ]
18  Alasdair Donaldson  69  [0  - 33 - 0  - 36 - 0 ]
19  * Aoife Byrne IRE U23   68  [0  - 33 - 35 - 0  - 0 ]
20  Kelly Caffel U2366  [31 - 35 - 0  - 0  - 0 ]
20  Joanne Fenn 66  [31 - 0  - 0  - 35 - 0 ]
22  Bradley Donkin  65  [32 - 0  - 0  - 0  - 33]
23  Andrew Brown

t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling

[northam]

>t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling
It's not just net storytelling. As I understand for many Games athletes 
have not been able to write newspaper columns or work as TV or radio 
reporters.
Randall Northam

Re: t-and-f: Most members of the same club at the Olympic games?

[Dirk Wagner]

Matthew schrieb am 05.09.2000:
>At the last count, there are 18 paid-up members of the British Milers' Club
>(BMC) who have been selected by their national federations to represent
>their country in Sydney.
>
>Can any other club, first or second claim, rival this statistic?

The strongest German club, the TSV Bayer 04 Leverkusen, has 11 
Members on the German t&f team. But since the TSV is a multi sports 
club, it is possible, that there are more athletes from this club 
joining the German team...

Ciao

dirk

t-and-f: Kenya send champion home from Sydney

[URIrunner]

sorry if this has already been posted

Athletics-Kenya send champion home 
from Sydney

  
NAIROBI, Sept 4 (Reuters) - Kenyan athletics officials in Australia for the 
Sydney Olympics have ordered their 800 metres Commonwealth champion Patrick 
Konchella to return home. 

Tom Omuombo, secretary-general of Kenya's national Olympic committee, told 
Reuters on Monday that Konchella had an ``undisclosed medical complication.'' 

Konchella had won his event at the Kenyan Olympic trials. 

Kenya's Olympic squad are currently training in Adelaide. 

Officials there also announced that William Chirchir would replace Laban 
Rotich in Kenya's three-man 1,500 metres team. 

No reason was given for the switch, with officials in Adelaide telling 
Omuombo only that Rotich had withdrawn. 

Chirchir, who came fourth at Kenya's Olympic trials in July, will join Noah 
Ngeny and Bernard Lagat in the 1,500 metres team. 

Chirchir came second in the Brussels Golden League meeting last month, beaten 
by Morocco's double world champion and world record holder Hicham El Guerrouj.

Re: t-and-f: Most members of the same club at the Olympic games?

[WMurphy25]

In a message dated 9/5/0 4:12:09 AM, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

<>

According to the club's Jim O'Brien, there are 35 members of the N.Y. 
Athletic Club  who will be competing in Sydney for three countries in eight 
sports.

Walt Murphy

t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling

[Allen M James]

Netters,
This internetphobia is out of control.  Actually, as an athlete, I never
knew rules 1 through 58 so they can have themselves.  Maybe I'll have to
dig out my old handbooks the USOC or IOC would give us and refresh myself
on those rules.  Isn't banning athletes from posting stuff to the net
essentially what they are saying?

I'm actually looking forward to three events in Sydney.  Of course, I'm a
bit partial, however, I'm excited because there is going to be almost
live coverage on the net.  As was done in Sacramento, live reports will
be sent to a list every five to ten minutes during the walking events. 
This was much easier to do from Sacramento, but I think they'll have
plenty of help with spotters as they update throughout the race.  

I think we're in good shape as long as the IOC Net Police doesn't steal
the laptop and cellular modem.  Come to think of it, are cell phones
banned from the stadium?  Anybody can post flash notes, results or quotes
to the web using a tiny digital cell phone or digital pager.  Now there's
an idea.  How about it?  
Allen


snip
Rule 59 states that an Olympic athlete is not permitted to record his
thoughts of his Olympic experience and have it posted on the Internet.
Doing so would be tantamount to an athlete acting as a journalist, the
IOC has determined.  And that is grounds for being thrown out of the
Games.

Re: t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling

[Bruce Lehane]

Cliff Blair was a hammer thrower from Boston University who made the US team in 1956, 
went
to Australia to compete at Melbourne.  Majoring in jounalism, he arranged to send to 
the
Boston Globe reports of his experience at the Games.  He did so.  He was then told 
that he
had violated the rules regarding athletes serving as jounalists and was prohibited from
throwing and sent back home.  Local rival, Hal Connolly of BC, won the event.

Why do I feel like I'm Ed Grant all of a sudden?

Andrew Owusu wrote:

> - Original Message -
> From: Allen M James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 6:52 AM
> Subject: t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling
>
> Hmmm i wonder if there are any jounalists who are also athletes competing at
> the games. I guess either your boss fires you for not capitalizing on the
> olympic experience or the IOC kicks you out of the village.
>
> Andrew
>
> > snip
> > Rule 59 states that an Olympic athlete is not permitted to record his
> > thoughts of his Olympic experience and have it posted on the Internet.
> > Doing so would be tantamount to an athlete acting as a journalist, the
> > IOC has determined.  And that is grounds for being thrown out of the
> > Games.
> >

Re: t-and-f: day 11 wit and wisdom

[Conway]

On Tuesday, September 05, 2000 9:43 AM Northam said:

> >As I remember, and I may be starting late--help me, Ed Grant--it was
> >Charlie Greene who made sunglasses a t&f fashion statement.  That was in
> >the mid-'60s, before "fashion statements" existed.
> We were talking about this at the AAA championships the other day, and we
> remembered Dr Merryweather, who as I remember (and my memory is by now
> means infallinle) wore his intern shirt as well as sunglasses when he
> sprinted.
> Of course, I could be totally wrong, but does anyone else remember him?
> He was, I think, a New Yorker.

Dr. Delano Meriwether ran in the early 70's for a few years .. 100
yds/meters .. Story goes he was watching track on TV and said he could run
that fast so started running .. Was late in his 20's I think .. Was world
ranked #6 in 1971 .. And yes he was from New York .. Charlie Greene called
his sunglasses his re-entry peepers - they were to keep him from blinding
himself upon re-entry from his sprint .. Now that is trash talking 

Conway Hill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: t-and-f: Which athletes in which event?

[Christian Fuchs]

Robert Korzeniowski told me in Hildesheim over the season that he will try
both events - the 20k and the 50k.

All who speak German can find the interview at www.steeple.de

Christian
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




- Original Message -
From: "Christoph Thurner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 10:12 PM
Subject: t-and-f: Which athletes in which event?


> Hi all,
>
> if somebody knows the event in which the following athletes will compete
> in Sydney, please let me know.
>
>
> Saidi-Sief (1500 or 5000)
> Sgyhr (5000 or 1)
> Rios (5000 or 1)
>
> Kenian marathon team?
>
> Korzeniowski (20k or 50k walk)
> Kononen (20k or 50k)
>
> Radcliffe, Ribeiro, Wami, Adere (5000 or 1)
> Tulu (1 or marathon)
>
>
>
> thanks
> CJ
>
>

t-and-f: Age group Road Records

[Brian McGuire]

Does anyone know where I can find world and national age-group records for
road races?
Brian McGuire

Re: t-and-f: College Marathoners

[R.T.]

My brother ran for Brevard (JUCO at the time)- I'll ask him.
I know he told me that he went from a HS program doing
55-60 miles a week, to Brevard where he jumped to 110 miles
a week and he felt exhausted all the time, then went on to
Florida State where he dropped it down to 90 miles a week
average, and bingo- sweet spot- his PRs dropped tremendously-
he was very successful at the national JUCO level in XC at
Brevard, but not so much on the track...
...being a 5K / Steepler, a marathon would have been a stretch...

Randy


On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 23:24:06 GMT, you wrote:

>Doesn't Brevard College of the NAIA use a system more suited for the 
>marathon? Just something I heard about once. Workouts such as 2-3x3mile and 
>simular types of workouts. The NAIA marathon has definetly moved my thinking 
>toward the marathon. If all goes well I'll be running it in the spring with 
>thoughts of 2:27-30 in my head. I don't think the marathon is something you 
>just decide to do, it's something you get addicted to.
>
>Alan
>
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>To: "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,   Track list 
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: t-and-f: College Marathoners
>>Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:40:56 -0700
>>
>>At 02:00 PM 9/5/00 -0600, P.F.Talbot wrote:
>> >Someone just asked about the reasons behind the United States marathon
>> >woes.  The problem (if you believe there is a problem) has many facets 
>>but
>> >one that hasn't come up is the U.S. college system.  While I'm generally 
>>a
>> >big fan of collegiate track and field, I wonder if college distance
>> >prevents some guys from making the move to the marathon?  College coachs,
>> >with some exceptions, don't train their distance runners for the 
>>marathon,
>> >only for the 10k.
>>
>>In the mid 60's, there was a distance runner from Occidental College, who
>>did quite well in the Boston Marathon while still at Oxy. The legendary 440
>>hurdler
>>(61 NCAA Champ) was his coach. By a circuitous route Dixon is now AD at
>>Oxy, which I presume he will go full bore after his Olympic staff duties in
>>the land of OZ.
>>
>>The NAIA has the Marathon in their Championships.
>>
>>george
>>
>
>_
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>

RE: t-and-f: college and marathoning

[malmo]

I'm not understanding the point of this one:

"I think the US junior marathon record was broken by a guy still in
college.I think it was Paul Gompers in 1985 with a 2:15 marathon and he had
another year at Harvard."

Just about all Junior records are held by college freshman. Most would have
another THREE years of college.

Is this one of those "push-the-send-button-ooops-did-I-really-say-that?"
posts?

malmo


>
> I don't know how this will effect the discussion but I'll throw out the
> fact:I think it was Paul Gompers in 1985 with a 2:15 marathon and he
> had another year at Harvard.  from what I heard Gompers ran a lot of
> mileage and would often do 30M LR's.  of course, how much of this has been
> stretched and warped in the last 15 years is fair game
>
> Joel
>
>
>
> [.sig]
> AXAF Public Outreach: http://xrtpub.harvard.edu
> Morceli Home Page: http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/tetreaul/morceli.html
>
>

re: t-and-f: Brussels 10k

[ppalmer]

Wasn't there a relatively recent IAAF rule requiring lap scorers in the
long races and specifying that no lap scorer was supposed to be
responsible for more than 3 runners?

If so, there should be lap sheets for each runner recording the
completion of each lap (and if they were sensible, the approximate
split time for each lap -- not to provide splits, but to help spot
mistakes.)

Maybe I remember incorrectly, and it was only a recommendation or
something.  We had already been doing this for a long time in indoor
meets.

Pat Palmer

t-and-f: Winds a major concern

[Eamonn Condon]

 The Irish Times
Wednesday, September 6, 2000


Officials admitted yesterday that if the gale-force winds which caused
disruption in the area of the Olympic Stadium occurred once the Olympic
Games get under way, delays could be inevitable.

Following several hours of windy conditions, Sydney Games 2000 spokeswoman
Liz Smilie said: "If that were to occur during the Games it would be a
decision for venue managers and the international associations organizing
the events.

"Obviously they would have to take into account the number of people unable
to get into the stadium. But if there were to be delays or cancellations
that would be a decision for them."

Winds reached a peak of (40 m.p.h. at lunchtime yesterday, causing the
cancellation of train services and evacuation from several sites.

Olympic contestants training at two of the venues in Olympic Park were
forced to abandon their white-water and rafting sessions, while in the main
press center a staff area housing 200 volunteers was evacuated.

Eamonn Condon
WWW.RunnersGoal.com

Re: t-and-f: College Marathoners

[Tom Derderian]

That marathoner was Bob Deines who placed 6th on a hot, slow day,(winning
time only 2:22:17, Burfoot) in 2:30:13. Deines did not get along well with
Dixon, his coach. 

Tom Derderian author of Boston Marathon: The History of the World's Premiere
Running Event
--

>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Track list
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: t-and-f: College Marathoners
>Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2000, 6:40 PM
>

>In the mid 60's, there was a distance runner from Occidental College, who
>did quite well in the Boston Marathon while still at Oxy. The legendary 440
>hurdler
>(61 NCAA Champ) was his coach.

Re: (fwd) re: t-and-f: Brussels 10k

[Andre Sammartino]

It was my understanding that runners had been wearing computer chips in the
bibs this season in the big Euro meets, hence the impressive "distance
behind" split for the runners in the lead pack that had been coming through
each lap on the TV coverage (at least the UK version being shown
downunder). I didn't see the Brussels meet.  Did they not use this technology?


André Sammartino
Reckon you know your stuff?
Come try our Olympics track and field tipping comp 
http://surf.to/bayside

At 20:43 5/09/00 -0700, R.T. wrote:
>On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:26:40 -0500 (CDT), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>Wasn't there a relatively recent IAAF rule requiring lap scorers in the
>long races and specifying that no lap scorer was supposed to be
>responsible for more than 3 runners?
>
>If so, there should be lap sheets for each runner recording the
>completion of each lap (and if they were sensible, the approximate
>split time for each lap -- not to provide splits, but to help spot
>mistakes.)
>
>Maybe I remember incorrectly, and it was only a recommendation or
>something.  We had already been doing this for a long time in indoor
>meets.
>
>Pat Palmer
>
>

t-and-f: Selected results from Germany

[Winfried Kramer]

Koenigs Wusterhausen, 29 Aug
110mh: Crews  13.57
LJ: Prah 8.06
HT: Ziolkowski POL 78.87, Kobs 78.34, Weis 77.74 Palyszko POL 
77.12, Esser 74.88

w200m: Philipp  22.94
w4x100m: Germany 42.80

Bad Koestritz, 3 Sep
DT. Riedel 65.31
HT: Kobs 76.80, Weis 74.89
wSP: Kumbernuss 20.12, Kleinert-Schmitt 18.75
wDT: Dietzsch 61.28, Wyludda 59.20

Wesel, 3 Sep
German multi-championships
Dec: Schoenbeck 8127
wGep: Gutjahr 6079


Winfried Kramer
Kohlrodweg 12
66539  Neunkirchen
GERMANY
Editor of NATIONAL ATHLETICS RECORDS
Association of Track & Field Statisticans

Re: t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling

[Andrew Owusu]

- Original Message -
From: Allen M James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 6:52 AM
Subject: t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling


Hmmm i wonder if there are any jounalists who are also athletes competing at
the games. I guess either your boss fires you for not capitalizing on the
olympic experience or the IOC kicks you out of the village.

Andrew

> snip
> Rule 59 states that an Olympic athlete is not permitted to record his
> thoughts of his Olympic experience and have it posted on the Internet.
> Doing so would be tantamount to an athlete acting as a journalist, the
> IOC has determined.  And that is grounds for being thrown out of the
> Games.
>

t-and-f: Spanish champs

[Joel Tetreault]

how does Spain pick its Olympic team?  do top three automatically go or
what?  in Monti's RRW today some of the top Spanish distance runners
either DNF'd or DNS'd...

Joel

[.sig]
AXAF Public Outreach: http://xrtpub.harvard.edu
Morceli Home Page: http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/tetreaul/morceli.html

Re: Does college hurt our marathoners? (Was: Re: t-and-f: IAAF list of top marathoners)

[magpie]

we can thank the ncaa for further limiting the pool of people . . . considering that 
the ncaa won't even allow one full scholarship per championship event, adding the 
marathon to the ncaa slate wouldn't necessarily help a lot.  for coaches, it would be 
just one more event over which to stretch, what is it, 14.5 scholarships?  the ncaa 
doesn't seem to provide an answer to these 'woes'.  

--- "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>If more guys turned to the marathon earlier say 18-22 years old, we might
>have a much broader base for the marathon corps at the national and
>international level.  As it is, most guys don't think about the marathon
>until they are out of school and faced with all sorts of pressures (like
>eating and putting a roof over their head).  Obviously people can cope
>with these things, I simply suggest that the college distance system
>limits the pool of people who will try the marathon.
>
>Whether this is good or bad I don't know
>
>Paul

==
"Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him, impale him with 
monster-truck force . . . " - Cake

_
i-run.com - your running log
A free online running log 

Re: t-and-f: day 11 wit and wisdom

[northam]

>As I remember, and I may be starting late--help me, Ed Grant--it was
>Charlie Greene who made sunglasses a t&f fashion statement.  That was in
>the mid-'60s, before "fashion statements" existed.
We were talking about this at the AAA championships the other day, and we 
remembered Dr Merryweather, who as I remember (and my memory is by now 
means infallinle) wore his intern shirt as well as sunglasses when he 
sprinted.
Of course, I could be totally wrong, but does anyone else remember him? 
He was, I think, a New Yorker.
Randall Northam

Re: Re: t-and-f: flo-jo

[whitmank]

Re: Flojo. I can't see either side swaying the other in this argument at
this point barring a confession from Flojo (unlikely) or Al (possibly less
likely).
Steve S.


Speaking of Al Joyner, didn't I see that he had been named an assistant
coach at UCLA?  Don't recall any discussion regarding that particularly in
light of recent litigation and the latest allegations regarding Florence.

Keith Whitman
Head Cross Country Coach
Assistant Track & Field Coach
University of Nebraska at Kearney
Office (308) 865-8070
Home (308) 338-1115
http://www.lopers.com/xcountry/default.htm
Fax # (308) 865-8187

Does college hurt our marathoners? (Was: Re: t-and-f: IAAF list oftop marathoners)

[P.F.Talbot]

Someone just asked about the reasons behind the United States marathon
woes.  The problem (if you believe there is a problem) has many facets but
one that hasn't come up is the U.S. college system.  While I'm generally a
big fan of collegiate track and field, I wonder if college distance
prevents some guys from making the move to the marathon?  College coachs,
with some exceptions, don't train their distance runners for the marathon,
only for the 10k.  While this is certainly good preparation for the
marathon I don't think that many college guys are ready to run a marathon
right after college and certainly not while they are in college.  Venues
for college distance running have disappeared as well (eg., the Drake
Relays Marathon--not a college event, but one in which some of the
collegiate guys would run).

If more guys turned to the marathon earlier say 18-22 years old, we might
have a much broader base for the marathon corps at the national and
international level.  As it is, most guys don't think about the marathon
until they are out of school and faced with all sorts of pressures (like
eating and putting a roof over their head).  Obviously people can cope
with these things, I simply suggest that the college distance system
limits the pool of people who will try the marathon.

Whether this is good or bad I don't know

Paul

t-and-f: Which athletes in which event?

[Christoph Thurner]

Hi all,

if somebody knows the event in which the following athletes will compete
in Sydney, please let me know.


Saidi-Sief (1500 or 5000)
Sgyhr (5000 or 1)
Rios (5000 or 1)

Kenian marathon team?

Korzeniowski (20k or 50k walk)
Kononen (20k or 50k)

Radcliffe, Ribeiro, Wami, Adere (5000 or 1)
Tulu (1 or marathon)



thanks
CJ

Re: t-and-f: Brussels 10k

[James Templeton]

Interesting comments from Peter and others on the Felix Limo situation.  
There were I recall 14 Kenyans in the 10,000 in Brussels (quite a few
relatively lesser known such as Felix Limo) and so it's not surprising
there was some confusion among commentators etc.  

I did happen to notice Limo through the race however because I was
trying to work out who he was (funnily enough I know him reasonably well
in person but have only seen him race once before so didn't recognise
the style).  I followed him running with Kalya lap after lap (both have
pretty awkward running styles); he was wearing Nike and I thought he
looked too old to be one of the young guys represented by Gianni
Demadonna/Eric Lilot.

Straight after the race the other Kenyans were laughing at the situation
because they too were convinced he had run a lap short.  But that is
mainly because Limo is not generally considered a top-class distance
runner (a bit unfairly perhaps - he had run well earlier in the year in
Ingolstadt, finishing 3rd behind Komen & Misoi in I think 7:42 looking
pretty good) and also because it seemed Tergat was s far ahead
although he was in fact slowing dramatically over the last 3km.

Anyway, I am 100% sure Limo was not lapped..I don't see how he
could have been a lapped runner during 4-8km when I saw him running
strongly in the top 6 (not many are lapped by 4km!).

I'd be interested to hear any other opinions,,,

Regards,
James T

PS Peter refers to Tergat's target of the fastest time of the year; that
may be the spin they (Fila, Tergat etc) are putting on it after the
'disappointing result' however I can tell you they were definately
aiming at the WR.  Benjamin Limo was asked to run 13:10 or under for
5km; he managed 13:18 and Tergat wasn't exactly all over him at that
point so was obviously not going to manage 26:20.  I didn't think Tergat
looked so good to be honest; not as good as his efforts at 5000 this
year.  

Peter Matthews wrote:
> 
> I have noticed various postings to the list concerning the Brussels 10,000m
> - and the 'errors' committed by Larry Rawson etc. concerning Felix Limo at
> the finish.
> I was in Brussels, and with Steve Ovett commentated on the race in its
> entirety for ISL's clients, who may not have received this commentary, as
> the 10k was before the main 2 1/2 hour programme began. The last lap or two
> was inserted into the main programme later.
> May I support Larry - and Walt Murphy's comments on this subject - because
> despite watching the race throughout (with a very few interruptions) neither
> Steve nor I had any doubt at the time (and said so on our commentary) that
> Limo was a lapped runner who helped Tergat to a decent finish. The other
> commentators that I have spoken to were all of the same opinion.
> However, subsequent investigation does appear to support the official result
> that Limo finished 2nd.
> I had noted the file of runners behind the early pacemaker Ben Limo - and
> then the main protagonists Tergat and Ivuti - and, for instance, at the
> 5000m point Limo was not in the next five or so runners (I am told now that
> he went through in about 13:27 compared to Tergat's 13:18.98).
> The file had sorted itself out by 2k to the pacemakers (Damiao, Ornellas,
> and Ben Limo) and then: Tergat, Ivuti, Maina, Rutto, I Kirui, P Kosgei ...
> and I think from memory that that order of those Kenyans was more or less
> retained for many laps. I did not note Felix Limo at all.
> >From 5km to 6km Ivuti challenged Tergat as they went clear of the pack, but
> then it was Tergat (who ran the 6th and 7th kilometres in 2:42.09 and
> 2:42.64) against his target of the world's fastest time of the year - and we
> noticed Ivuti gradually falling back.
> Now it may be that Limo ran a more consistent pace and passed all those
> other men - Maina, Kalya, Ivuti etc. - but it is curious that neither of us
> noted that - but then it would have been well behind Tergat (and not shown
> on our TV monitor) - and there was 1 large field of 24 runners.
> Tergat certainly slowed from the 7k point with kilometres of 2:47.48,
> 2:49.70 but then produced a last km of 2:42.98.
> Having initially dismissed Limo's time - I am now adding it to my lists in
> view of authoritive opinion. But I retain some scepticism and would love to
> see a lap chart or details of Limo's splits throught the race.
> 
> Peter Matthews,
> Editor International Athletics Annual, Co-publisher Athletics International
> 10 Madgeways Close, Great Amwell, Ware, Herts SG12 9RU, England
> Tel. 44 (0)1920 870434, Fax 44 (0)1920 877392

t-and-f: Marion Jones gold poll

[Christoph Thurner]

Hello t-and-f fans,


I'd like to suggest that someone may put the following poll on his/her
(track-related) homepage:

How many gold medals will Marion Jones get in Sydney?

0 ( )
1 ( )
2 ( )
3 ( )
4 ( )
5 ( )


Btw, I don't think she will do the five.

Greets
Christoph

Re: Does college hurt our marathoners? (Was: Re: t-and-f: IAAF list of top marathoners)

[William Bahnfleth]

I have a vague recollection that there was a marathon championship back in 
the late 70s or early 80s in one of the smaller college or JUCO 
organizations.  Maybe I'm just mis-remembering that there were collegiate 
team entries in an open championship.  Can anybody out there help on this one?

Bill Bahnfleth

At 02:00 PM 9/5/2000 -0600, P.F.Talbot wrote:

>College coachs,
>with some exceptions, don't train their distance runners for the marathon,
>only for the 10k.  While this is certainly good preparation for the
>marathon I don't think that many college guys are ready to run a marathon
>right after college and certainly not while they are in college.  Venues
>for college distance running have disappeared as well (eg., the Drake
>Relays Marathon--not a college event, but one in which some of the
>collegiate guys would run).


_

William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E.
Associate Professor

Department of Architectural Engineering
The Pennsylvania State University
224 Engineering Unit A
University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA

voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm
_

t-and-f: Programming Note (NYC Tri-State Interest Only)

[David Monti]

Track Listers and RRW Subscribers,

Two participation sports shows only available to television viewers in the
New York City Tri-State area which might interest you:

I. Running New York (MSG Network)
Highlights for September, 2000: 
. Lamisil AT Manhattan Half-Manhattan, fourth stop in the PHS Health Systems
Grand Prix 
  Series
. Breakaway Solutions Falmouth Road Race 
. Bill Rodgers relives the first five borough NYC Marathon in 1976 in 
  this edition of Great Moments in Running presented by Runner's World
. Gary Muhrcke remembers his win in the very first NYC Marathon, 1970,
. NYC Marathon Tune-up 18-Miler in Central Park in the NYC Marathon Turn-Up. 

Scheduled Airtimes: 
Saturday, September 2nd at 2:00pm
Friday, September 8th, at 8:00pm. 
There will be additional airs later in the month, but they are not yet hard
scheduled due 
to the fact that some Yankee games may move from MSG to national television. 

II. Finish Line (Fox Sports NY Network) 
Highlights for September include 2000:
. Falmouth Mile (on the track the day before the road race)
. Hong Kong Dragon Boat racing from Corona Park, Queens
. pre-season ski tips from the winter Olympic town of Lake Placid
. Quicksilver Molokai to Oahu Paddleboard Championship
. PHS Health Plans Half-Marathon Series

September Airdates on Fox are: 
Tuesday, September 5th at 4:00pm;
Sunday, September 10th at 12:30am
Saturday, September 23rd at 3:30pm
Thursday, September 28th at 3:30am. 

ENDS

David Monti, Editor and Publisher, Race Results Weekly 

Sponsored by:

F I L A   R U N N I N G / R U N N E R ' S   W O R L D / S A L M I N I  F I L M S

P.O. Box 8233[EMAIL PROTECTED]
FDR Station  +1 212-752-2666
New York, NY 10150-8233  +1 212-752-2626 (fax)
USA  +1 815-461-2285 (secondary fax)
 http://www.RaceResultsWeekly.com

RE: t-and-f: day 11 wit and wisdom

[malmo]

Intern shirt and suh-spend-dahs!

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of northam
> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 9:43 AM
> To: posting
> Subject: Re: t-and-f: day 11 wit and wisdom
>
>
> >As I remember, and I may be starting late--help me, Ed Grant--it was
> >Charlie Greene who made sunglasses a t&f fashion statement.  That was in
> >the mid-'60s, before "fashion statements" existed.
> We were talking about this at the AAA championships the other day, and we
> remembered Dr Merryweather, who as I remember (and my memory is by now
> means infallinle) wore his intern shirt as well as sunglasses when he
> sprinted.
> Of course, I could be totally wrong, but does anyone else remember him?
> He was, I think, a New Yorker.
> Randall Northam
>

RE: t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling

[malmo]

And the Australian Taxman wants a piece of the action for both.

Have you journalists duly registered with the Australian tax authorities?
You'd better!

malmo


>
> Hmmm i wonder if there are any journalists who are also athletes
> competing at
> the games. I guess either your boss fires you for not capitalizing on the
> olympic experience or the IOC kicks you out of the village.
>
> Andrew
>
> > snip
> > Rule 59 states that an Olympic athlete is not permitted to record his
> > thoughts of his Olympic experience and have it posted on the Internet.
> > Doing so would be tantamount to an athlete acting as a journalist, the
> > IOC has determined.  And that is grounds for being thrown out of the
> > Games.
> >
>
>

RE: t-and-f: Brussels 10k

[Post, Marty]

Maybe in 10,000s with 20+ starters meet officials ought to consider renting
timing chips and a mat from some  road racing organization; this would not
only remove all doubt as to the proper number of laps by each runner, but
also provide extremely accurate splits 

Marty Post
Senior Editor
Runner's World Magazine
www.runnersworld.com



-Original Message-
From: Tom Derderian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 2:18 PM
To: Peter Matthews; T&F List
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: t-and-f: Brussels 10k



 But I retain some scepticism and would love to
>see a lap chart or details of Limo's splits throught the race.
>
>Peter Matthews,

>Editor International Athletics Annual, Co-publisher Athletics International

In such an important race is there no video camera fixed on the finish so
each athlete could be seen and counted on each lap? Will there be one in
Sydney? 
Tom Derderian,  Greater Boston Track Club

t-and-f: College Marathoners

[grenier]

At 02:00 PM 9/5/00 -0600, P.F.Talbot wrote:
>Someone just asked about the reasons behind the United States marathon
>woes.  The problem (if you believe there is a problem) has many facets but
>one that hasn't come up is the U.S. college system.  While I'm generally a
>big fan of collegiate track and field, I wonder if college distance
>prevents some guys from making the move to the marathon?  College coachs,
>with some exceptions, don't train their distance runners for the marathon,
>only for the 10k.  

In the mid 60's, there was a distance runner from Occidental College, who
did quite well in the Boston Marathon while still at Oxy. The legendary 440
hurdler
(61 NCAA Champ) was his coach. By a circuitous route Dixon is now AD at
Oxy, which I presume he will go full bore after his Olympic staff duties in
the land of OZ.

The NAIA has the Marathon in their Championships.

george

Re: t-and-f: Baily at Meeting de Nancy

[Jason Michael Blank]

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, David Monti wrote:

> Nancy, FRA (03-Sep).
> 
> 100m Race A (-1.4)
>  1. 10.28 Patros, David, Amiens Uc
>  2. 10.33 Bailey, Donovan, Canada 
>  3. 10.51 Nordin, Rodrigue,  Neuilly-plaisance Sports
>  4. 10.58 Ganda, Thomas, Sierra Leone 
>  5. 10.63 Vallon-hoareau, Alexandre, Us Pointe-des-galets (reu)
>  6. 10.66 Nthepe, Aime, Racing Cf (paris)
>  7. 10.68 Borderan, Olivier, Ca Montreuil
> Hery, Didier, Franconville Le Parisis


  Whoa!  Bailey almost won that one and we know he's trying not to
win any races prior to the Olympics.  I guess he's happy he got
away with another loss even if it was a little close for comfort.

Jason

___
Jason BlankHopkins Marine Station
Enloe HS '92, Duke '96, Stanford ??  Oceanview Boulevard
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Pacific Grove, CA 93950

"I would prefer the Trinidad government to do something really grand 
  in my name.  I'd like them to build maybe three or four tracks with
   indoor facilities for the kids to enjoy. . . and I'd like Tobago."
 --  Ato Boldon of Trinidad, on his hopes for Olympic Gold
___

Re: t-and-f: RE: Does college hurt our marathoners?

[Ed & Dana Parrot]

I'm not convinced that our men's marathoners are that much worse off than
our men's 5K/10K runners.  If our best 10K guy is around 28:00, then
logically our best marathoner will be around 2:12.  This is about what it's
been until this year.  Obviously a 28:00 10K guy who is a good marathoner
can run faster, but we don't have enough 28:00 10K guys that we have much
chance of seeing 4 or 5  2:10 marathoners appear.

I do think that the college system is one contributor to our distance
problems, but I think the disconnect between junior, high school, college,
and post-collegiate (such as it is) programs is really the biggest problem.
In a nation like ours, that doesn't move very much in everyday life, it
takes a consistent, 5-15 year buildup in order for athletes to reach their
potential.  The average athlete who starts in age group track probably has
5-6 coaches by the time he/she is a 23-year-old aspiring elite - not much
consistency.  That's not even including the various goals of each group
mentioned above, many of which are not consistent with achieving excellence
at age 25-30.

- Ed Parrot

t-and-f: Olympic Journalism Ban

[Ed Grant]

Netters:
    Does 
anyone know just when the Oly,pic ban on jouralism by athletes went into 
effect?
    

    Also, 
does this ban mean that athletes can only go on TV during the Olympics if they 
are being question and not if they are questioning another athlete or commenting 
on an event. (Does anyone seriously believe the IOC would interfere with the 
goose that lays the golden egg?)
 
    When 
there was a strict amatert code in effect at the Olympics, paid journalism by an 
athlete would have been a violation. But that is no longer part of the equation, 
so what is the reason for the rule now? And could it really be enforced in the 
U.S. (e.g., during the Atlanta Olympics), given the strict U.S. constitutional 
support for freedom of speech and freedom of the press
 
    There 
have, of course, been several Olympic participants (even at least one gold 
medalist) who became journalists in later life. One was Earl Eby, a Penn grad 
who covered the sport (including, of course, the Relays) for many years for, I 
believe, the Bulletin. And Harold Abrahams became the leading track and field 
journalist in England after his win at Paris in 1924.
 
    For 
the life of me, I cannot see the rationale (and certainly not any justification) 
for the rule. After all, any criticism an athlete might have could easily be 
[passed on to the more-than-willing hatchet-type journalists who have always 
been part of any Olympic press corps.
 
    
Ed Grant. 

Re: t-and-f: RE: Does college hurt our marathoners?

[DLTFNedit]

In a message dated Tue, 5 Sep 2000  6:09:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Linda Honikman" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

<< Paul, you make some good points. Can you be more specific about the
following statement -

> Venues
> for college distance running have disappeared as well (eg., the Drake
> Relays Marathon--not a college event, but one in which some of the
> collegiate guys would run).

Was there a time when college marathons were popular?
I do know that the World University Games reduced their marathon to a
half-marathon a few years ago. Perhaps having a few more half-marathons for
college or recent graduates would be a good start. As you point out, most
college age athletes aren't ready for a good marathon but training just for
the 10K may not be the best preparation for future marathoners.

Cheers, Linda Honikman, USATF RRIC and Running USA

 >>
Training for the 10,000 IS good preparation for the marathon when one is aged 18-23. 
Cross-country is even better. Unfortunately, the number of 10K's in cross apart from 
districts and nasties is way down (Chili Pepper the only one left?). Hopefully, the 
move afoot a year or two ago by some coaches to shorten the DI distance to 8K will not 
catch on.

The problem is that too many guys hang around the 10K distance once they're out of 
school instead of moving straight up to the marathon, where they could make an 
immediate impact on the U.S. scene. Guys like Fein, Matt Downin and Balkman could be 
excellent marathoners, IMHO. And just because you move up to the marathon doesn't mean 
you can't still run a fast 10 now and then.
sideshow

Re: t-and-f: Marion Jones gold poll

[Dan Kaplan]

--- Christoph Thurner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello t-and-f fans,
> 
> I'd like to suggest that someone may put the following poll on his/her
> (track-related) homepage:
> 
> How many gold medals will Marion Jones get in Sydney?

Excellent suggestion!  I have just updated this month's Run-Down Contest
(which was opened a couple of days ago) to include that very question. 
The other two questions are the winning times of the men's and women's
1500's at the end of the Games.

http://run-down.com/contest/

Of course, some clever types will figure out that they can update their
gold medal predictions after seeing how Marion fares her first few
events...  I guess it will come down to the 4x400 on the 30th.

Dan

=
http://AbleDesign.com - AbleDesign, Web Design that Can!
http://Run-Down.com - 8,000 Running Links, Free Contests...

  @o   Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 <|\/ <^-  ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
_/ \ \/\   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address)
   /   /   (503)370-9969 phone/fax

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Re: t-and-f: College Marathoners

[alan tobin]

Doesn't Brevard College of the NAIA use a system more suited for the 
marathon? Just something I heard about once. Workouts such as 2-3x3mile and 
simular types of workouts. The NAIA marathon has definetly moved my thinking 
toward the marathon. If all goes well I'll be running it in the spring with 
thoughts of 2:27-30 in my head. I don't think the marathon is something you 
just decide to do, it's something you get addicted to.

Alan

>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,   Track list 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: t-and-f: College Marathoners
>Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:40:56 -0700
>
>At 02:00 PM 9/5/00 -0600, P.F.Talbot wrote:
> >Someone just asked about the reasons behind the United States marathon
> >woes.  The problem (if you believe there is a problem) has many facets 
>but
> >one that hasn't come up is the U.S. college system.  While I'm generally 
>a
> >big fan of collegiate track and field, I wonder if college distance
> >prevents some guys from making the move to the marathon?  College coachs,
> >with some exceptions, don't train their distance runners for the 
>marathon,
> >only for the 10k.
>
>In the mid 60's, there was a distance runner from Occidental College, who
>did quite well in the Boston Marathon while still at Oxy. The legendary 440
>hurdler
>(61 NCAA Champ) was his coach. By a circuitous route Dixon is now AD at
>Oxy, which I presume he will go full bore after his Olympic staff duties in
>the land of OZ.
>
>The NAIA has the Marathon in their Championships.
>
>george
>

_
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Re: Does college hurt our marathoners? (Was: Re: t-and-f: IAAFlist of top marathoners)

[P.F.Talbot]

I think that NAIA still has a marathon championshsip and JUCO did 10 years
or so ago, I don't know if they still do.

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, William Bahnfleth wrote:

> I have a vague recollection that there was a marathon championship back in 
> the late 70s or early 80s in one of the smaller college or JUCO 
> organizations.  Maybe I'm just mis-remembering that there were collegiate 
> team entries in an open championship.  Can anybody out there help on this one?
> 
> Bill Bahnfleth
> 
> At 02:00 PM 9/5/2000 -0600, P.F.Talbot wrote:
> 
> >College coachs,
> >with some exceptions, don't train their distance runners for the marathon,
> >only for the 10k.  While this is certainly good preparation for the
> >marathon I don't think that many college guys are ready to run a marathon
> >right after college and certainly not while they are in college.  Venues
> >for college distance running have disappeared as well (eg., the Drake
> >Relays Marathon--not a college event, but one in which some of the
> >collegiate guys would run).
> 
> 
> _
> 
> William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E.
> Associate Professor
> 
> Department of Architectural Engineering
> The Pennsylvania State University
> 224 Engineering Unit A
> University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA
> 
> voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789
> e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm
> _
> 
> 

***
Paul Talbot
Department of Geography/
Institute of Behavioral Science
University of Colorado, Boulder
Boulder CO 80309-0260
(303) 492-3248
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

t-and-f: RE: Does college hurt our marathoners?

[Linda Honikman]

Paul, you make some good points. Can you be more specific about the
following statement -

> Venues
> for college distance running have disappeared as well (eg., the Drake
> Relays Marathon--not a college event, but one in which some of the
> collegiate guys would run).

Was there a time when college marathons were popular?
I do know that the World University Games reduced their marathon to a
half-marathon a few years ago. Perhaps having a few more half-marathons for
college or recent graduates would be a good start. As you point out, most
college age athletes aren't ready for a good marathon but training just for
the 10K may not be the best preparation for future marathoners.

Cheers, Linda Honikman, USATF RRIC and Running USA

Re: t-and-f: IAAF list

[Roger Ruth]

Everett Murdock wrote,

>The IAAF recently posted the top 100 performances in the marathon for
>this year.  It can be found at:
>http://www.iaaf.org/Results/index.asp?Filename=/Results/lists/2000/outdoor/
>G/index.html
>
>In looking over the list, I can find only one American, Rod Dehaven
>(near the bottom of the list).  Is this possible?  Scanning the list, I
>see just about every other country represented, even small countries
>like Ireland, Korea, and Poland.  This seems like a wild deviation from
>what would be statistically predicted, given the size of the US and the
>popularity of marathons here.  Am I missing something?

That's one more American than I find in the top 100 of Mirko Jalava's world
list for 2000 . In Mirko's 1999 list, the only
top-100 U.S. marathoner was Dave Morris, 32nd-ranked at 2:09.32.

It may be that, for most participants, the popularity of marathons and road
races has more to do with the T-shirt you get for entering than the prizes
you get for placing.

Cheers,
Roger

P.S.--Cheers, too, for the IAAF Stats Section on the improvements they've
made this year in the Results section of their website! In addition to the
rankings, these include a top performance list, all-time best performances,
and an archive of world championship results. Well done!

t-and-f: Brussels 10k

[Peter Matthews]

I have noticed various postings to the list concerning the Brussels 10,000m
- and the 'errors' committed by Larry Rawson etc. concerning Felix Limo at
the finish.
I was in Brussels, and with Steve Ovett commentated on the race in its
entirety for ISL's clients, who may not have received this commentary, as
the 10k was before the main 2 1/2 hour programme began. The last lap or two
was inserted into the main programme later.
May I support Larry - and Walt Murphy's comments on this subject - because
despite watching the race throughout (with a very few interruptions) neither
Steve nor I had any doubt at the time (and said so on our commentary) that
Limo was a lapped runner who helped Tergat to a decent finish. The other
commentators that I have spoken to were all of the same opinion.
However, subsequent investigation does appear to support the official result
that Limo finished 2nd.
I had noted the file of runners behind the early pacemaker Ben Limo - and
then the main protagonists Tergat and Ivuti - and, for instance, at the
5000m point Limo was not in the next five or so runners (I am told now that
he went through in about 13:27 compared to Tergat's 13:18.98).
The file had sorted itself out by 2k to the pacemakers (Damiao, Ornellas,
and Ben Limo) and then: Tergat, Ivuti, Maina, Rutto, I Kirui, P Kosgei ...
and I think from memory that that order of those Kenyans was more or less
retained for many laps. I did not note Felix Limo at all.
>From 5km to 6km Ivuti challenged Tergat as they went clear of the pack, but
then it was Tergat (who ran the 6th and 7th kilometres in 2:42.09 and
2:42.64) against his target of the world's fastest time of the year - and we
noticed Ivuti gradually falling back.
Now it may be that Limo ran a more consistent pace and passed all those
other men - Maina, Kalya, Ivuti etc. - but it is curious that neither of us
noted that - but then it would have been well behind Tergat (and not shown
on our TV monitor) - and there was 1 large field of 24 runners.
Tergat certainly slowed from the 7k point with kilometres of 2:47.48,
2:49.70 but then produced a last km of 2:42.98.
Having initially dismissed Limo's time - I am now adding it to my lists in
view of authoritive opinion. But I retain some scepticism and would love to
see a lap chart or details of Limo's splits throught the race.

Peter Matthews,
Editor International Athletics Annual, Co-publisher Athletics International
10 Madgeways Close, Great Amwell, Ware, Herts SG12 9RU, England
Tel. 44 (0)1920 870434, Fax 44 (0)1920 877392

Re: t-and-f: Brussels 10k

[Tom Derderian]

 But I retain some scepticism and would love to
>see a lap chart or details of Limo's splits throught the race.
>
>Peter Matthews,

>Editor International Athletics Annual, Co-publisher Athletics International

In such an important race is there no video camera fixed on the finish so
each athlete could be seen and counted on each lap? Will there be one in
Sydney? 
Tom Derderian,  Greater Boston Track Club

t-and-f: Chinese Olympic squad decimated by drug tests

[Eamonn Condon]

The Irish Times
Wednesday, September 6, 2000
Johnny Watterson



As many as 30 athletes, representing almost a tenth of the Chinese Olympic
team, are believed to have been pulled out of the Sydney Games. It is
understood that positive tests for the banned performance enhancing drug EPO
is the reason for the dramatic withdrawal, just nine days before the games
begin.

The combined testing of urine and blood for EPO was recently sanctioned by
the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and it is thought several athletes
may have failed monitoring tests in China. Beijing is favourite to host the
2008 games after Athens in 2004, and China's sports administration has
engaged in a tough anti-doping campaign this year. Now there are fears that
failures by its athletes to pass doping tests could jeopardise the bid.

It is thought rowing, long-and middle-distance running, weightlifting,
canoeing and possibly swimming may be the main events involved.

According to the website of FISA, the International Rowing Federation, the
result of team blood tests is behind the decision to withdraw seven rowers.

The Chinese Rowing Association (CRA) said the results are above the "IOC
blood index" levels but not necessarily officially positive.

CRA secretary general Mr Liu Jianyong said the Chinese Olympic Committee had
withdrawn the rowers to "protect their health and uphold the fairness of the
Olympic Games". As a result, the Chinese rowing team has been reduced from
17 to 10.

Although details of the sudden withdrawals are still unclear, a Chinese
official said there would also be last-minute changes to the athletics team
after mercurial coach Ma Junren abruptly abandoned his training camp on the
Tibetan plateau where he was preparing his "Ma Family Army" of women
runners.

Ma, whose runners were bidding for golds in the 5,000 and 10,000 metres
events, has given no explanation for his change of plans. The Beijing Youth
Daily reported that drug inspectors had visited the camp four times. Local
sports reporters covering the training camp said they had been trying,
without success, to get official comment on the outcome of the tests.

Eamonn Condon
WWW.RunnersGoal.com

t-and-f: Chinese wield axe in drugs clampdown

[Paul V. Tucknott]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/olympics2000/newsid_912000/912156.stm
 
Forty athletes and officials have been axed from the Chinese 
Olympic team, in an apparent warning to drug cheats. 
The International Olympic Committee welcomed the move, which was implemented 
by China's Olympic chiefs after seven rowers failed drug tests. 
"I'm very pleased, I'm very happy," said IOC president Juan Antonio 
Samaranch. "This is very good news. It shows the new system for detecting doping 
substances will work very well." 
The IOC recently approved blood testing for the first time, in the hope of 
catching athletes using the endurance-enhancing drug EPO. 



  
  
This is a warning to all athletes who wish to come to the 
  games with drugs in their system - stay at home
  
  IOC vice president Anita 
  DeFrantz IOC vice president Anita DeFrantz said the decision to remove almost 10% 
of the Chinese team sent the right message to athletes. 
"This is a warning to all athletes who wish to come to the games with drugs 
in their system - stay at home," she said. 
Chinese authorities who have been on a campaign to improve their sporting 
image to better their chances of winning the 2008 Olympics for Beijing. 
"These athletes in my opinion were being cowards and were using things they 
shouldn't have been using," DrFrantz said. "I've said for a long time any 
athlete who is using drugs who cannot compete with his or her own ability should 
stay at home. 
"Do not come to the Games if you are not coming clean." 
Rowers implicated 
Rowing's world body said on its official website that the Chinese Olympic 
Committee had dropped seven of the 17 rowers for the Games it had announced just 
10 days ago. 


  
  

  
  Juan Antonio Samaranch: Welcomed the 
  moveThe seven had been excluded because results of the tests 
were above "IOC blood index" levels - though not necessarily officially positive 
for a banned substance - rowing's governing body Fisa said. 
Liu Jianyong, secretary general of the Chinese Rowing Association, said the 
rowers had withdrawn to protect their health and uphold the fairness of the 
Olympic Games. 
"The Chinese have been testing rowers for EPO and from the results a total of 
seven - men and women - were above the blood index level and the Chinese decided 
not to send the athletes to the Games," IOC medical officer Patrick Schamasch 
said in Sydney. 

Re: t-and-f: Olympic Journalism Ban

[CORA KOCH]

In 1984, didn't Ruth Wysocki do a column during the Olympics 
without any punishment? And does this mean no MJ column in USA Today from 
Sydney?
 
Ed Koch

  -Original Message-From: 
  Ed Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: track net 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
  Tuesday, September 05, 2000 7:37 PMSubject: t-and-f: Olympic 
  Journalism Ban
  Netters:
      
  Does anyone know just when the Oly,pic ban on jouralism by athletes went into 
  effect?
      
  
      
  Also, does this ban mean that athletes can only go on TV during the Olympics 
  if they are being question and not if they are questioning another athlete or 
  commenting on an event. (Does anyone seriously believe the IOC would interfere 
  with the goose that lays the golden egg?)
   
      
  When there was a strict amatert code in effect at the Olympics, paid 
  journalism by an athlete would have been a violation. But that is no longer 
  part of the equation, so what is the reason for the rule now? And could it 
  really be enforced in the U.S. (e.g., during the Atlanta Olympics), given the 
  strict U.S. constitutional support for freedom of speech and freedom of the 
  press
   
      
  There have, of course, been several Olympic participants (even at least one 
  gold medalist) who became journalists in later life. One was Earl Eby, a Penn 
  grad who covered the sport (including, of course, the Relays) for many years 
  for, I believe, the Bulletin. And Harold Abrahams became the leading track and 
  field journalist in England after his win at Paris in 1924.
   
      For 
  the life of me, I cannot see the rationale (and certainly not any 
  justification) for the rule. After all, any criticism an athlete might have 
  could easily be [passed on to the more-than-willing hatchet-type journalists 
  who have always been part of any Olympic press corps.
   
      
  Ed Grant. 

RE: Does college hurt our marathoners? (Was: Re: t-and-f: IAAF list of top marathoners)

[malmo]

The college ranks would make no appreciable impact on the US marathon scene.

malmo

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of P.F.Talbot
> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 1:01 PM
> To: Track list
> Subject: Does college hurt our marathoners? (Was: Re: t-and-f: IAAF list
> of top marathoners)
>
>
> Someone just asked about the reasons behind the United States marathon
> woes.  The problem (if you believe there is a problem) has many facets but
> one that hasn't come up is the U.S. college system.  While I'm generally a
> big fan of collegiate track and field, I wonder if college distance
> prevents some guys from making the move to the marathon?  College coachs,
> with some exceptions, don't train their distance runners for the marathon,
> only for the 10k.  While this is certainly good preparation for the
> marathon I don't think that many college guys are ready to run a marathon
> right after college and certainly not while they are in college.  Venues
> for college distance running have disappeared as well (eg., the Drake
> Relays Marathon--not a college event, but one in which some of the
> collegiate guys would run).
>
> If more guys turned to the marathon earlier say 18-22 years old, we might
> have a much broader base for the marathon corps at the national and
> international level.  As it is, most guys don't think about the marathon
> until they are out of school and faced with all sorts of pressures (like
> eating and putting a roof over their head).  Obviously people can cope
> with these things, I simply suggest that the college distance system
> limits the pool of people who will try the marathon.
>
> Whether this is good or bad I don't know
>
> Paul
>
>

Re: t-and-f: Which athletes in which event?

[Joel Tetreault]

one of the french sports sites has an interview with AS-S where it is
pretty clear he is in the 1500 and out to take ElG on.  the article made
it sound like AS-S would rather go after ElG than win a soft 5k gold.

supposedly Smail Sghir (originally of Morocco, switched to France) will
not run in the Olympics b/c Morocco did not clear him.  Sghir was one of
the top 5k runners in the early 90s and has made a come back of sorts this
year with a French NR of 12:58/9

[.sig]
AXAF Public Outreach: http://xrtpub.harvard.edu
Morceli Home Page: http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/tetreaul/morceli.html

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Christoph Thurner wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> if somebody knows the event in which the following athletes will compete
> in Sydney, please let me know.
> 
> 
> Saidi-Sief (1500 or 5000)
> Sgyhr (5000 or 1)
> Rios (5000 or 1)
> 
> Kenian marathon team?
> 
> Korzeniowski (20k or 50k walk)
> Kononen (20k or 50k)
> 
> Radcliffe, Ribeiro, Wami, Adere (5000 or 1)
> Tulu (1 or marathon)
> 
> 
> 
> thanks
> CJ
> 
> 

t-and-f: college and marathoning

[Joel Tetreault]

I don't know how this will effect the discussion but I'll throw out the
fact:  I think the US junior marathon record was broken by a guy still in
college.  I think it was Paul Gompers in 1985 with a 2:15 marathon and he
had another year at Harvard.  from what I heard Gompers ran a lot of
mileage and would often do 30M LR's.  of course, how much of this has been
stretched and warped in the last 15 years is fair game

Joel



[.sig]
AXAF Public Outreach: http://xrtpub.harvard.edu
Morceli Home Page: http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/tetreaul/morceli.html

Re: t-and-f: Which athletes in which event?

[Joel Tetreault]

> 
> supposedly Smail Sghir (originally of Morocco, switched to France) will
> not run in the Olympics b/c Morocco did not clear him.  Sghir was one of
> the top 5k runners in the early 90s and has made a come back of sorts this
> year with a French NR of 12:58/9

I mean mid 90s.  he came in third or fourth in the 95 world champs.

RE: t-and-f: Age group Road Records

[malmo]

http://www.usaldr.org/private-cgi/rec-form.cgi/?category=runningusa_index

There's one link.

malmo


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Brian McGuire
> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 5:01 PM
> To: T n F List
> Subject: t-and-f: Age group Road Records
>
>
> Does anyone know where I can find world and national age-group records for
> road races?
> Brian McGuire
>
>

Re: t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling

[CORA KOCH]

Of course in those days, there was the amateur issue. Was Cliff Blair being
paid for his articles?

Ed Koch


-Original Message-
From: Bruce Lehane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Andrew Owusu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Allen M James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling


>Cliff Blair was a hammer thrower from Boston University who made the US
team in 1956, went
>to Australia to compete at Melbourne.  Majoring in jounalism, he arranged
to send to the
>Boston Globe reports of his experience at the Games.  He did so.  He was
then told that he
>had violated the rules regarding athletes serving as jounalists and was
prohibited from
>throwing and sent back home.  Local rival, Hal Connolly of BC, won the
event.
>
>Why do I feel like I'm Ed Grant all of a sudden?
>
>Andrew Owusu wrote:
>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Allen M James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 6:52 AM
>> Subject: t-and-f: OC Bans Athletes From Net Storytelling
>>
>> Hmmm i wonder if there are any jounalists who are also athletes competing
at
>> the games. I guess either your boss fires you for not capitalizing on the
>> olympic experience or the IOC kicks you out of the village.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> > snip
>> > Rule 59 states that an Olympic athlete is not permitted to record his
>> > thoughts of his Olympic experience and have it posted on the Internet.
>> > Doing so would be tantamount to an athlete acting as a journalist, the
>> > IOC has determined.  And that is grounds for being thrown out of the
>> > Games.
>> >
>
>
>

Re: t-and-f: RE: Does college hurt our marathoners?

[CORA KOCH]

The Penn Relays had a marathon in the 1970's which was held on Monday or
Tuesday of Penn Relays week. (This may have been in response to Drake having
one.) It did not get huge numbers given that it was on a weekday and was
before the 1970's roadrace boom had fully hit. It eventually was replaced by
the Penn Relays 20 K which is held on the Sunday before the meet. While I
was on the Penn team, I recall one or two teammates running the marathon but
not anyone who might score in the Heptagonals or IC4A's in the following
weeks. I believe most of the marathoners were post-collegians.

Ed Koch


-Original Message-
From: Linda Honikman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: P.F.Talbot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Track list
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 6:25 PM
Subject: t-and-f: RE: Does college hurt our marathoners?


>Paul, you make some good points. Can you be more specific about the
>following statement -
>
>> Venues
>> for college distance running have disappeared as well (eg., the Drake
>> Relays Marathon--not a college event, but one in which some of the
>> collegiate guys would run).
>
>Was there a time when college marathons were popular?
>I do know that the World University Games reduced their marathon to a
>half-marathon a few years ago. Perhaps having a few more half-marathons for
>college or recent graduates would be a good start. As you point out, most
>college age athletes aren't ready for a good marathon but training just for
>the 10K may not be the best preparation for future marathoners.
>
>Cheers, Linda Honikman, USATF RRIC and Running USA
>

Re: t-and-f: Marion Jones gold poll

[Jason L Bunston]

>Christoph Thurner at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> I'd like to suggest that someone may put the following poll on his/her
> (track-related) homepage:
> 
> How many gold medals will Marion Jones get in Sydney?
> 
> 0 ( )
> 1 ( )
> 2 ( )
> 3 ( )
> 4 ( )
> 5 ( )

> Btw, I don't think she will do the five.

None! She'll get kicked in the head trying to pet a kangaroo while at
training camp. Too bad she didn't just keep her distance