t-and-f: college athletics
WHY WE PLAY It's not about getting a scholarship, getting drafted, or making Sportscenter. It's a deep need in us that comes from the heart. We need to practice, to play, to lift, to hustle, to sweat. We do it all for our teammates and for the guy in our calculus class we don't even know. We don't practice with a future Twins first baseman; we practice with a future sports agent. We don't lift weights with a future olympic wrestler; we lift with a future doctor. We don't run with a future Wimbleton champion; we run with a future CEO.It's a bigger part of us than our friends and family can understand. Sometimes we play for 2,000 fans, sometimes 25. But we still play hard. You cheer for us because you know us. You know more than just our names. Like all of you, we are still students first. We don't sign autographs. But we do sign graduate school applications, MCAT exams and student body petitions. When we miss a kick, or strike out, we don't let down an entire state. We only let down our teammates, coaches, and fans. But the hurt in our hearts is the same. ...We train hard. Lift, throw, run, kick, tackle, shoot, dribble, and lift some more, and in the morning we go to class. Still the next day in class we are nothing more than students. It's about pride. In ourselves, in our school. It's about our love and passion for the game. And when it's all over. When we walk off that court or field for the last time, our hearts crumble. Those tears are real. But deep down inside, we are very proud of ourselves. We will forever be what few can claim: college athletes.
Re: t-and-f: NCAA ALL AMERICAN.....
In a message dated 1/7/1 1:00:20 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could someone please tell me (being a canuck and all) whether the NCAA has "all-american' awards for americans only? ie an american in say 40th XC overall but the 20th american would be given a special award as being an 'american all-american'. Thanks, Bomba In DIvision One, the top 30 finishers, plus however many it takes to fill out the top 30 "Americans", receive All-American status. At December's race in Ames, Iowa, the men went down to 46th place and the women to 34th. Walt Murphy X-Country X-Press
Re: t-and-f: Clubs
Title: Re: t-and-f: Clubs In Minnesota (of all places) we have a series of five track field meets restricted to members of clubs (which has helped create some), but even those meets end early in July. It's hard to find a facility that doesn't want to put away its equipment ASAP. We call the series a Summer Track Field League and competition for the season-end trophies gets fierce. And fun. These are definitely sub-elite teams we are talking about here. -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Clubs Date: Sun, Jan 7, 2001, 12:23 AM Another facet to this issue is where do these teams/clubs run. The teams clearly exist, but where are they supposed to compete during the summer, when the elite athletes are running 2-3 times a week? DGS The G.O.A.T.
t-and-f: 2000 Penn Relays
Does anybody know anyone who would have a video of the 3000m highschool boys run at Penn Relays April 2000. I would like to purchase if available.
t-and-f: Elite Development Clubs
I'm enjoying the excellent discussion going on right now about the US's club system -- or lack thereof. I coached and managed the elite team for Seattle's Club Northwest from Spring '91 to Spring'97 -- all volunteer, of course (CNW didn't get around to starting to _pay_ a coach/manager until 2000). We had a solid group of national-level athletes during that era, averaging about a half-dozen qualifiers a year for USATF outdoors, putting a racewalker on the Oly Teams in '92 '96, and winning 3 women's Assoc (aka, Club) national xc team titles in 6 years (our men also won one and finished 2nd another time). There are more locally based elite development clubs (EDCs) out there than most people realize; an EDC is a club that promotes the development of elite and emerging elite athletes and generally offers coaching, training groups, and access to training facilities, as well as possible additional services such as equipment, travel assistance, financial support, and access to to medical. One of the projects that I am currently working on is to compile a list of EDCs around the country. The current version of the list is posted at: http://miscott.home.att.net/clubs I will admit right now that the list is very distance running focused; I would love to add more EDCs from other event groups. BTW--I still have some corrections to make on this list; it's a work in progress. I am trying to contact some of the clubs on that list to confirm contact information and to get more info about the services that they offer. I know that there are also more clubs out there; please have someone from other clubs contact me and I will add them to my list. I completely agree that too few clubs have full-time (or even part-time) coaching and support staff. One of the major reasons that I stepped down from CNW in spring '97 is that it had become a full-time job, yet I wasn't being paid a cent. I couldn't afford to stay with them forever; it was time to move on with my life. Bottom line for most clubs is the lack of financial support to hire staff and to support athletes. As was noted by another list member, many of the active clubs are essentially a one-man operation (excuse my sexist language, but -- as was confirmed by my recent survey of these clubs -- these volunteer club coaches are almost exclusively male) and this coach is putting all of his spare time into coaching activities and has nothing left over to spend on marketing, promotions, and fundraising. HSI is a great club that offers the full range of services that elite athletes need, but I doubt that the market could bear more than a couple of them. The Invaders have an interesting model and appear to be developing athletes. The Enclave has also been successful, but (last I heard) is currently struggling to find a sponsor. The two new Team USA Centers -- Hansons and Brownstone -- both seem well supported. If someone finds the answer, hopefully they will share it with the rest of us. Mike
Re: t-and-f: NCAA ALL AMERICAN.....
In DIII it's the top 35 finishers, regardless of nationality. -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: NCAA ALL AMERICAN. Date: Sun, Jan 7, 2001, 6:38 AM In a message dated 1/7/1 1:00:20 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could someone please tell me (being a canuck and all) whether the NCAA has "all-american' awards for americans only? ie an american in say 40th XC overall but the 20th american would be given a special award as being an 'american all-american'. Thanks, Bomba In DIvision One, the top 30 finishers, plus however many it takes to fill out the top 30 "Americans", receive All-American status. At December's race in Ames, Iowa, the men went down to 46th place and the women to 34th. Walt Murphy X-Country X-Press
Re: t-and-f: NCAA ALL AMERICAN.....
Thanks for the replies. Dare i ask the creation/history/rationale behind this practice of '"american" all americans' in D 1 only?? Bomba --- Jack Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In DIII it's the top 35 finishers, regardless of nationality. -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: NCAA ALL AMERICAN. Date: Sun, Jan 7, 2001, 6:38 AM In a message dated 1/7/1 1:00:20 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could someone please tell me (being a canuck and all) whether the NCAA has "all-american' awards for americans only? ie an american in say 40th XC overall but the 20th american would be given a special award as being an 'american all-american'. Thanks, Bomba In DIvision One, the top 30 finishers, plus however many it takes to fill out the top 30 "Americans", receive All-American status. At December's race in Ames, Iowa, the men went down to 46th place and the women to 34th. Walt Murphy X-Country X-Press = "Cassidy early on understood that a true runner ran even when he didn't feel like it, and raced when he was supposed to, without excuses and with nothing held back. He ran to win , would die in the process if necessary, and was unimpressed by those who disavowed such a base motivation. You are not allowed to renounce that you have never possessed, he thought." (Quenton Cassidy - 'Once a Runner') __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Re: Clubs
Mike Trujillo wrote: The Mikes (Roth and Rohl) and Ed all bring up some interesting points about the club system, or lack thereof, in this country. Another Mike (Platt) maintains that there IS a club system in place; I disagree with him. The club system, as it now exists, serves one of four different functions. It can be a youth/developmental club, aimed at introducing our sport to novices. It can be an elite club, producing national-level (and beyond) performers. It can be a masters club, which needs little explanation. Or it can be a social club, usually limited to runners, with little or no organized coaching or training. I think most of us can think of local examples of the first, third, and fourth types. (Here in what's known as the Quad Cities, we have only the last of these [Cornbelt Running Club], with a couple of small youth clubs on the horizon.) The second type is HSI, the Enclave, and a few others. The shoe companies are NOT clubs; they are sponsors. Illustrating story: I have a photo that Bill Leung took at the winter XC champs from Washington on the desktop of the computer in my classroom. Sometimes students will comment, "Wow that team is really good! Look at how many of their runners are in the front!" They're referring to the Nike uniforms and assume (erroneously) that they are members of a team that trains together-after all, that's true for other sports, right? Same uniform means same team which means same coach, arena, etc.? Obviously, shoe companies aren't clubs. What's wrong with this picture? WHERE ARE THE POST-COLLEGIATE, SUB-ELITE, SUB-MASTERS, NON-SOCIAL CLUBS? There aren't more than a handful of these in the country, and that IS the problem with our sport. There OUGHT to be a fifth type of club, are there just isn't. (For convenience, let's call this fifth type a True Club.) While I am sure that there are lots of "track clubs" out there .. And a lot of successful ones .. This is what I was thinking about when I asked the initial questions about clubs .. There are many clubs here in Northern California too .. A lot of them .. However, As Mike stated in his post they are either social type clubs .. or Youth oriented clubs which basically gives the kids something to do when they are not running for their schools .. The HSI type clubs are few and as much as I am an HSI fan they are not "developmental" / "grass roots" clubs .. They are businesses designed to aid the elite Professional level athletes .. And that is great because they need something too !!! Schools (primarily high schools and colleges) are the "developmental programs" for the under 21 group of track athletes .. And HSI, the Enclave and others will take care of the elite athletes over 21 .. What is there for the 23 year old sprinter recently out of college with no eligibility who is say a 21.00 sprinter .. Or a 14.00 hurdler .. Or a 1:51 half miler .. Or a 4:05 miler .. What is there for these athletes who may just be developing physically and a couple of years or so away from maturity in the sport ?? No offense but I don't think there is room for the 21.00 at HSI .. Maybe if he could get down to 20.40/20.50 in a couple of years .. And he may be ready to do that .. Except he doesn't have the opportunity .. It's not too big a stretch to think that the 1:51 guy might be able to get to 1:46/1;47 in another year or two with the right work (and be in the thick of it right now in the US) .. And given the recent thread regarding early bloomers and late bloomers perhaps some of our best talent goes uncultivated .. For lack of a system to help them .. And as Darrell alluded to in another post that system is more than pulling people together to work out/train they would also need a series of competitions to compete in .. And I am aware of the "All Comers meets" that take place all over the country .. I am thinking more along the lines of organized team competitions and championships .. Perhaps regionally and then nationally .. Or some type of series of meets here in the states that while the golden league is taking place in Europe, guys running 10.40 - 10.60, 21.00 - 21.40, 46 - 47, 1:50 - 1:53 are going at and honing their skills ... Where a 10.50 guy has a chance to get to 10.25 and go against "the big boys" ... Where in a National Championships setting there are winning times of 10.31/20.90/45.99/1:49.80/3:45 .. With relays that go 39.50/3:05 ... Guys (and girls) that are just short of Olympic trial caliber who might get there in the next 4 years given an opportunity ... That system would be developmental ! Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Owens' OSU LJ record revisited
In a message dated Sun, 7 Jan 2001 1:01:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Although I'm sure many people know more about the history of wind readings in the sprints, hurdles and jumps, there are plenty of recorded wind readings involving world records (and presumably all the other events in the same meet) by the late 1920s. Owens' WR of 8.13m on May 25, 1935 was reported as aided by a wind of 1.3 m/s. My knowledge on the subject is woefully lacking, other than being able to contribute that the IAAF adopted the 2.0 max at the '36 Olympic Congress in Berlin (right before the Games) and that the 2.0 rule was enforced in the subsequent Olympics. The rule was enforced retroactively at least to the point where a 100 mark by Owens at the '36 NCAA was rejected as a record. I can't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure that the AAU was rejecting American Record status for sprint marks basedon strong tailwinds (but I don't know if codified) prior to the IAAF action. gh
Re: t-and-f: USATF snub of Marion Jones detailed
In a message dated Sun, 7 Jan 2001 2:53:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mark Zeigler of The San Diego Union-Tribune describes the process by which Marion Jones lost the Jesse Owens Award vote to Stacy Dragila. Mark also quotes Olympic coach Karen Dennis as being "shocked" by what she calls a "tainted election." The Ziegler story misses what was given to me as the real reason for the election. As i posted here on 12/21: GH: for what it is worth - since they wanted a body to be present at the awards banquet and if the athlete was not attending the convention then they should not be considered. And the winner is ... sorry he/she is not here to accept the Jesse Owens Award Looks better if the recipient is there to accept. Think about it!!! gh
Re: t-and-f: NCAA ALL AMERICAN.....
Bomba wrote: Thanks for the replies. Dare i ask the creation/history/rationale behind this practice of '"american" all americans' in D 1 only?? I would take a guess and say somewhere around the late 70's early 80's when schools like Washington State and UTEP (among others) began to recruit foreigners with much success .. When guys like Rono and Waigwa were winning everything and "Americans" began to have a hard time competing .. Was also around the time when we started keeping track of collegiate records as American and non American .. Someone correct me if I am wrong .. Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: USATF snub of Marion Jones detailed
I did not give this reason much thought before, but now I have. What crap!!! If I can watch the Emmy's. the AMA's and watch satellite feeds of acceptance, or hear, "On behalf of..." I can bear an absent athlete. That is not a reason to not give the award to the person who earned it. Personal bias like this, is what hampers progress the most. It is petty, and a weak excuse to exercise some perceived sense of power by the voter. Darrell The G.O.A.T.
t-and-f: Junior lists
Does anyone know where to find all time lists for high school and/or juniors ??? Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Millrose Games
It appears that once again TV will take a dump on TF again. The Millrose Games, which runs during primetime on the east coast on a Friday night, will be broadcast in edited tape delay on Saturday afternoon. Surely this meet, of any, can be done live. It runs with an exacting schedule, and there is NEVER a dead period in the action. Additionally, you need no more camera-people than a basketball game in the same arena. Even in its taped prodution, w/ may too much fluff-crap, it will get higher ratings than a Rangers hockey game. Yet it still is shown on tape. What is wrong with these people? Are repeats on a Friday night better than a live event? MJR
RE: t-and-f: 110mH - Stagnant event?
In a message dated Fri, 5 Jan 2001 7:47:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, Justin Clouder [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Fascinating, thanks Phil, that explains a lot. Does that mean the event should be changed? Lower hurdles? Fewer hurdles? Or should I stop obsessing about progress and just enjoy the event? Anyone who restricts the measure of "progress" in terms of World Records (or close thereto) is doomed to lose his interest in the sport. As a pure numbers honk, I've certainly had to recast my attachment to the absolute as WRs become harder and harder to find. Throw out "new" events (women's PV, HT, both javelins because of implement change) and track races which probably owe as much as improvements in track/shoe technology as they to do to new-and-improved athletes and I think the WR curve basically stopped almost 10 years ago now. 2000 was the first year since 1907 without a WR--it won't be the last. That's the"bad" news. The good news is that the sport remains as exciting as it ever was. The worse news is, just try telling that to the average sportswriter or fan. Our longtime reliance on records as the sport's sole selling point is about jump up and give us a serious bite on the ass. gh
Re: t-and-f: 110mH - Stagnant event?
Our longtime reliance on records as the sport's sole selling point is about to jump up and give us a serious bite on the ass. gh Perhaps we can celebrate close group finishes such as the fastest top five in history or the number close to the record to show how tight the competition is and how little difference there is between first and, say, fifth. So what was the most closely contested high-level track or field event ever? Tom Derderian
t-and-f: Sydney Olympic Tapes?
Just curious if anyone has a copy of the mens 800,1500,steeple chase, and 10k runs from the 2000 Olympics? I taped every segment possible, except the late night ones. Thus I missed the 10k and my vcr didn't record day 7 which included the women's long jump, mens steeple, and mens 1500. I have most everything else from NBC. If you have a copy of this please contact privately. I will pay shipping and I have the ability to dub. Thanks, Paul Nisius Bigfork, MN __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: 110mH - Stagnant event?
One of the closest, deepest, and fastest races I can remember is the men's 1996 Olympic 800 final. Steve
Re: t-and-f: 110mH - Stagnant event?
Garry wrote: Anyone who restricts the measure of "progress" in terms of World Records (or close thereto) is doomed to lose his interest in the sport. As a pure numbers honk, I've certainly had to recast my attachment to the absolute as WRs become harder and harder to find. Throw out "new" events (women's PV, HT, both javelins because of implement change) and track races which probably owe as much as improvements in track/shoe technology as they to do to new-and-improved athletes and I think the WR curve basically stopped almost 10 years ago now. 2000 was the first year since 1907 without a WR--it won't be the last. That's the"bad" news. The good news is that the sport remains as exciting as it ever was. The worse news is, just try telling that to the average sportswriter or fan. Our longtime reliance on records as the sport's sole selling point is about jump up and give us a serious bite on the ass. I agree with Garry .. Why does progress have to be defined as "records" broken in a given year .. When in actually the sport is progressing by leaps and bounds .. Not necessarily because a slew of records are broken every year, but by the increasing number of individuals competing at a high level .. No the 100 record didn't fall, but look at the number of individuals under 10.00 .. Same for the 200 .. And actually for most events ..Even the 110 hurdles which started this thread .. No WR but 7 individuals under 13.20 and 14 under 13.30 .. I would call that progress .. When Nehemiah and Foster were going at it there was no where near this kind of depth .. So if the fact that more people are nearing the barriers counts then I believe there has been much progress in the sport ... Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Syndey Olympic Tapes?
Just curious if anyone has a copy of the mens 800,1500,steeple chase, and 10k runs from the 2000 Olympics? I taped every segment possible, except the late night ones. Thus I missed the 10k and my vcr didn't record day 7 which included the women's long jump, mens steeple, and mens 1500. I have most everything else from NBC. If you have a copy of this please contact privately. I will pay shipping and I have the ability to dub. Thanks, Paul Nisius Bigfork, MN __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/
t-and-f: Chariots of Fire
Just a note that Chariots of Fire is beginning at 9:00 p.m. eastern time on ESPN Classic. Paul Nisius Bigfork, MN __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/
Re: Re: t-and-f: 110mH - Stagnant event?
In a message dated 1/7/1 8:28:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So what was the most closely contested high-level track or field event ever? How about the 100-meter hurdles at the 1984 U.S. Olympic Trials?: 1.Kim Turner 13.12 2.Benita Fitzgerald 13.13 3.Pam Page 13.13 4.Stephanie Hightower 13.13 Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: Re: Clubs
Conway hits on an important point that was already touched on by a number of others. What happens to the 4:06 milers, the 21.2 200 guys, etc? Of course, there are clubs like the ones mentioned by Mike Platt, but the majority of these guys end up stopping competition after college. These are the "fifth category" of clubs that someone mentioned. Or we could call them "elite development clubs" like the ones identified by Mike Scott. If you examine it further, you see that the problem can go even deeper. What is one of the factors that helps keep elite runners the best - they know that there are a whole group of aspiring elites out there gunning for them. The fact that there are fewer, slower aspiring elites in many events will end up making the elites worse, or at least there will be fewer of them. And what about the aspring elites who aren't quite there yet? Of course, they are looking higher towards their ultimate goals. But it would also be helpful to have them being pushed from below, just as they push the elites. This trend can go on far down the line. The point of all this is that while some clubs certainly need to be elite-focused and stay that way, the best club system will mostly consist of clubs with athletes from the emerging elite down quite far in ability. This breeds the sport from the ground up in a very positive way. Even in my club in Connecticut, with a bunch of 31:00 and 32:00 10K guys, a lot of the rank and file joggers and slower runners like to be associated with the faster runners, (who don't even qualify as aspiring elite). In the absence of a televised track league like the NFL or NBA, this served some of the same role in generating interest in the sport. Our club offered some tangible benefits to all members, but focused what funds we did have more on the fastest runners - no one had a problem with it because we made sure that everyone fit in. I have moved from the area recently and I hope the club will continue to be successsful. But the club was never even 10% as successful as it could have been. We needed 6 or 7 other similar clubs to compete with, just in our area. We needed a pipeline into colleges and even into high schools to help recruit up and coming athletes. We needed a structured, hierarchical system of competitions. We needed a paid coach. And compared to the track and field events, a distance running club like ours actually had it good. In short, we needed a combination of outside support and an evironment that would help generate the time/money needed to take things to the next level. As some have said, without a consistent source of funding, the vast majority of clubs end up losing their volunteer commitment (which is enormous) and falling by the wayside. We have the potential for this sport to be everwhere. As much as I cringe when I hear Craig Masback quote the participation statistics on high school track and on road racers, he is correct that there is tremendous interest in certain areas that can be harnessed. I believe that clubs in one form or other are critical to realizing this potential. We can focus solely on generating money for development programs for elites or "almost-elites" and we MIGHT succeed in improving our best athletes. Or we can focus on building the program from the base up, which will improve our image and create such a huge pool of athletes at all levels that the best athletes will have to get better. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: 110mH - Stagnant event?
So what was the most closely contested high-level track or field event ever? This should be an interesting thread. Looking from top to bottom (as opposed to say the gap just between 1st and 2nd) I imagine that it will be an 800 meter race or maybe a vertical jump. In this year's U.S. trials alone both the semis and finals were extremely close in the 800 and there were jumpoffs for both first place and third place in the vertical jumps. I seem to remember a 400H race in the eighties involving Edwin Moses where at least the top three were very close. I know there have been some VERY close 110H races in the past decade. I would guess that the Kenyan national championships would have some close distance races. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: 110mH - Stagnant event?
I remember seeing in a picture of the 1976 Olympic 1500 final where 5 or 6 women finished within a couple tenths a second of each other. The pictute I saw showed a very tight race. Marty Ogden
t-and-f: close finishes
2 events that come to mind was the 1983 WC 10,000 won by Cova. Big field sprinting down the final straightaway and the IH final with Moses, Harris and Schmidt at the wire.
