t-and-f: MJ and Mo - Really injured?
OK, how many people out there really think either one of those guys was really hurt? I find it interesting that pretty much all of the back and forth on both sides of the MJ/Mo discussion assume the pull-ups were legit. I don't think so. MJ's acting has been well honed in this his third such performance, and Mo was so hurt he made sure he made it over to the victor's TV interview before seeking medical treatment - just to congratulate the winner y'know... Cheers, Buck Reigning Hootie World Champion "I'm the best in the world, and I'll never duck my competition!"
Re: t-and-f: MJ and Mo - Really injured?
Whoo... I feel all warm and scorched all over. Forgive me, oh Omniscient One, for giving you a Headache by spewing my heresy in the face of your True Belief. -Buck (BTW, not missing the irony of his own True Belief, in the eyes of some, regards the prevelance of drug use in our sport.) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 5:37 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: MJ and Mo - Really injured? >Cynics unite!!! >What a foolish diatribe. Just reading your words gave me a headache. You disgrace yourself with such a cowardly belief system. So Mike pulled at 40m because he had surmised he would lose? And Maurice pulled at 80 because..? >Mike was injured in Toronto, and he was injured here. The thought that you and others like you think a person would go to such hysterics, as Mike did, is disgusting. >As for Maurice, he has always been gracious in defeat. He has always made the tim eto congratulate his conquerors. Why should this time be any different? Please do not fault him for Jim Gray's decision to forego Capel's interview to try and be controversial with Maurice. >Sorry, you are reaching for straws. Yes, you have the right to your opinion, I just choose this moment to exercise mine as well. > >William E. Beaman
t-and-f: Doubling US Oly jumpers
If Davis declines the LJ spot, doesn't that put Robert "My shorts are too big" Howard in a position to double in the TJ and LJ? Buck Jones -Original Message- From: Hume, Samuel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'David Dallman ' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 'Michael Rohl ' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, July 27, 2000 12:12 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Final Thoughts on MJ > >FYI-Though he will probably decline his spot in the LJ, Walter Davis of >Barton County Community College made the US team in both the long and triple >jumps. > >Sam Hume > >-Original Message- >From: David Dallman >To: Michael Rohl >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: 7/27/00 11:23 AM >Subject: Re: t-and-f: Final Thoughts on MJ > > Concerning two-eventers, I suppose you are referring just to the US >team? > David Dallman > >On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Michael Rohl wrote: > >> >> Netters >> >> These will be my only comments on the subject. >> >> >> First Joe Donahue's post on the fear and the pain of the man and >> the child captured the essence of this issue. It was poetic. >> >> Conway wrote: >> >> .. My second point is that even though Carl and Edwin lost, that did >> not diminish their greatness nor their place in history .. >> >> >> This is what Michael does not understand or know. He does not >> realize if he loses that he will still be the greatest 200m runner >ever. >> He has forgotten that in track you not only prepare to win but to >> lose as well. I have always believed that this attitude comes up >> when those surrounding the athletes forget to continue coaching >> the "whole" athlete. They start coaching a legend. When the >> human base falls out so does performance. Michael has a problem >> with the way he looks at his best times. He sees them as World >> Records rather then remembering that they are JUST his PR's. >> When someone sees the "World record" it instills a sense of unreal >> difficulty. A PR is something, if I work hard at, can get to again. >> >> >> Now for the stats guys. With Michael and Mo bowing out that >> eliminated any individual doubles. There are no men doing two >> individual events in this Oylmpics. Is this the first time this has >> happened and did anyone else notice? >> Good Training, >> Michael Rohl >>
Jav from Re: t-and-f: DN Galan results
Just so you know us distance types notice these things too, note that US trials winner Grear missed the Oly A standard of 82 meters, leaving him as still the only US entrant in spear chucking. Of course if he makes it, Pukstys will be in too. Cheers, Buck >JAVELIN THROW - MEN > >1 Makarov Sergey RUS 83.42 >2 Rags Eriks LAT 83.05 >3 Bodén Patrik SWE 82.37 >4 Hakkarainen HarriFIN 82.32 >5 Lusis Voldemars LAT 81.53 >6 Hatcher Adrian AUS 80.31 >7 Grear Ryan USA 80.23 >8 Högler GregorAUT 79.33 >9 Hill MickGBR 78.44 > 10 Li Rongxiang CHN 78.22 > 11 Voynov SergeyUZB 77.20 > 12 Esenwein Peter GER 76.34 >
Re: t-and-f: Extracts from Ottey ruling (was IAAF inconsistencies)
What I would like explained is how Ms. Ottey's sample became MORE dilute
between the time of voiding ("peeing" for us anti-scientific types), and the
time of analysis - specicfic gravity from 1.025 to 1.019.
Who added the water? More likely, I think, is that the lab made a more
acurate measurement.
Regardless, reasonable doubt seems obvious, no?
Chowder,
Buck
Excerpt of the Extract:
<>
Re: t-and-f: Note to Statisticians - Andrew Masai's DOB
Note that a Kenyan friend of mine once offered the opinion that for about $100 you can be whatever age you want and have the Kenyan birth certificate to back it up. Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: David Monti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:21 PM Subject: t-and-f: Note to Statisticians - Andrew Masai's DOB > >RRW Subscribers and Track Listers, > >I have received several e-mails recently inquiring about the age of Kenyan >athlete, Andrew Masai. Most older reference books listed his date of birth >as 13-Dec-1960, which would make him 39 years-old, but the 2000 Road Race >Management Guide listed the date as 13-Jan-1960. He has been competing as a >masters athlete since April. > >I made an inquiry and received a fax of a copy of his birth certificate from >his U.S.-based agent. According to this document, signed by a Kenyan >government official, he was born on the earlier date, making him 40 >years-old. He was born in the Mt. Elgon District in the Western Province of >Kenya in Kaptalelio. > >Statisticians and race officials who need a copy of the certificate can >contact me privately. > >That is all. > > >David Monti, Editor and Publisher, Race Results Weekly > >Sponsored by: > >F I L A R U N N I N G / R U N N E R ' S W O R L D / S A L M I N I F I L M S > >P.O. Box 8233[EMAIL PROTECTED] >FDR Station +1 212-752-2666 >New York, NY 10150-8233 +1 212-752-2626 (fax) >USA +1 815-461-2285 (secondary fax) > http://www.RaceResultsWeekly.com >
t-and-f: Rawson: The real tf4ever?
I've come to the conclusion that Larry Rawson, in a clever ploy to boost his image, posted that email himself! Has anyone ever seen he and tf4ever in the same room? I think not! BTW, that 'Buck Jones' guy is a real jerk. Man is he a moron. I was talking to him yesterday and he was such a loser. Man... Cheers, T. Nugent
t-and-f: Women's 1500m (no results included, just fluff :-)
According to the IAAF website, Alan Culpepper has been inserted into the women's 1500m: http://www.iaaf.org/OLY00/results/data/W/1500/Sh128.html I like his chances to make the final, but I think he'll have trouble hanging with Szabo, Masterkova, and Hamilton in the final's kick. I'm going with that order for the final with Alan for fourth. Cheers, Buck
Re: t-and-f: Favor Hamilton Blames Medication
<> In my opinion, not likely. Try again... Cheers, Buck ___ Carleton 'Buck' Jones, Ph.D. Division of Pharmacology College of Pharmacy The Ohio State University Columbus, OH 43210 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Columbus Marathon
Perfect weather conditions greeted runners in the Columbus Marathon yesterday. After a relatively slow opening mile of 5:28, the lead pack, including eventual winner Elly Rono, started throwing down some more serious splits and quickly dropped the author :-) Rono of Kenya won in 2:15:27 followed by countryman Joseph Nderitu in 2:15:55. Simon Cherokony held off former Wisconsin stud Scott Fry of Tiffin, Ohio, 2:18:24 to 2:19:30. Fry started conservatively, negative splitting after covering the first half of the race in 1:09:58. The women's race went to 39-year-old Marzanna Helbik of Poland who blew past me at 4 miles (OK, I ran as a relay with my dad). Helbik ran an aggressive race, splitting 10 miles in 56 minutes and change and 1/2-way in 1:15:34. Alena Vinitskaya of Russia trailed by three minutes at the half and closed well (2:38:13) but failed to catch the Pole. Men 1. Elly Rono 2:15:27 2. Nderitu Joseph 2:15:55 3. Simon Cherokony 2:18:24 4. Scott Fry 2:19:31 5. Andrey Shalagin 2:21:50 Women 1. Marzanna Helbik 2:36:28 2. Alena Vinitskaya2:38:14 3. Tatiana Titova 2:40:27 4. Isabelle Ledroit2:41:51 5. Tatiana Perepelkina 2:43:49 Cheers, Buck ___ Carleton 'Buck' Jones, Ph.D. Division of Pharmacology College of Pharmacy The Ohio State University Columbus, OH 43210 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Masters records for 200, 400, 800, mile
I can't see Gray getting any of the records outside the 800 - and that one
only if he generates the will to do so - something that was missing from
last summers efforts. Imagine a typical 800m runner (ie someone whose BEST
event is the 800, ie Gray) whose best is 1:51 (Gray as of now). How many
1:51 half-milers do you know that can run 47.87 or 3:44/4:02?
Best regards,
Buck
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 12:55 AM
Subject: t-and-f: Masters records for 200, 400, 800, mile
Y ask Y:
When I posted a note to the Masterstf egroups list that Johnny Gray had made
it his goal to break all masters WRs from 200 to mile, the response was
nearly universal scoffing. These folks have a lot of respect for the current
set of records.
Fact is, the WRs for age 40 and over are hard as nails. ("Soft records" in
masters track are pretty rare after a dozen world veterans championships and
countless national and regional masters championships around the world).
Anyway, these are the records for men 40 and over:
200m 21.86 Bill Collins
400m 47.87 Manuel Ulacio
800m 1:50.69 Colm Rothery
1500m 3:44.89 Luiz Jose Gonsalves
Mile 4:02.53 David Moorcroft
3:58.15 (indoors) Eamonn Coghlan
Ken Stone
http://www.masterstrack.com
Re: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping
You are reading too much into what he is saying, I believe. Because RC hasn't seen the evidence, *RC* doesn't believe it exists. Same stance I take, actually. I refuse to approach the discussion already assuming that most runners are doped. While I accept doping occurs, nothing I have observed has convinced me that athletes cannot perform at the levels we have seen without doping. Thus, believing in the innate fairness of MOST competitors (most of the time), I believe most are clean. Now you can all just go away and leave me happy in my sandbox. -Buck Jones -Original Message- From: malmo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; T&FMail List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 7:51 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping > to buy these drugs. Unless you can come up with documentation that the > Kenyan or Ethiopian governments are out in the hinterlands distributing > these drugs, when they can't even distribute food adequately, I > doubt that > drugs are behind the widespread depth of African performances. > > Richard McCann > Ah, there's that rhetorical shield of yours again. Because RC hasn't seen the evidence it doesn't exist. If there is no documentation then it doesn't exist. I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that either the Kenyan or Ethiopian governments has, or even possess the ability or will to administer an American-style doping program. These countries, both known for a long history of neglect of its citizenry, prove each year that getting travel visas in order is a monumental task. malmo
t-and-f: 1:51 vs 3:42-3:44 (was: Johnny Gray)
Some 1:51 halfer's can run 3:42, maybe - but the 1500 time is much better. For example, based on the Mercier score calculator at the Athletics Canada site: http://palmtree.physics.utoronto.ca/~newt/track/Mercier/instructions.html a 1:51.0 800m equates to a 3:46.9 1500m. Conversely, a 3:42.0 equates to 1:48.7 I think my contention stands: someone primarily an 800m runner, capable of only 1:50-1:51, will not be able to attain 3:44 without some serious training and a shift of emphasis. Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: Martin J. Dixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Track & Field List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Friday, November 03, 2000 5:29 AM Subject: t-and-f: Johnny Gray "How many 1:51 half-milers do you know that can run 47.87 or 3:44/4:02?" Lots. A 1:51 half-miler should be able to run a 3:42. Regards, Martin Millard, Rouse & RosebrughMartin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A. Chartered AccountantsDirect Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 P.O. Box 367, 96 Nelson Street Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Web site: www.millards.com
Re: t-and-f: New performance enhancing drug(s)?
For those who care: Note first that both of these (RSR-13 and Hemassist) are already banned under IOC guidelines, "Current IOC Prohibited Classes of Substances and Prohibited Methods of Doping" which can be found here: http://www.usantidoping.org/files/2000_IOCprohibited_sub.pdf Specefically: II. PROHIBITED METHODS The following procedures are prohibited: 1. Blood doping; 2. Administering artificial oxygen carriers or plasma expanders; 3. Pharmacological, chemical and physical manipulation. RSR13 would be banned under the rather huge umbrella of #3. It works by binding to hemoglobin (Hb) and reducing its affinity for oxygen the idea being that more O2 would then unload in the muscles. As a doping agent, it would probably only be useful at low altitude where Hb would still be fully saturated with oxygen in the lungs even if its affinity were reduced. Personally, I don't think it's going to change the amount of O2 being delivered to the tissues in an exercising athlete - there are already factors that shift the affinity of Hb in the muscle (lowered pH, higher temp, etc.) and one would have to establish that the RSR13 still functions similarly under those conditions. I guess some people will try anything. I did notice there were some toxicities associated with ONE TIME use of this drug. Hemassist is a modified hemoglobin, I believe. Nevertheless, it would be banned under #2. It might not be as toxic as Anastasio's comment below makes it seem. The patients who died were gravely injured trauma patients. Baxter terminated the trial after 100 patients were treated, so 50 received the hemassist. That might have been because 30 of the treated group didn't survive versus 25 in the placebo group. They haven't published the data, so I don't know the numbers but it COULD be due to chance. Other clinical trials with less gravely injured patients are still ongoing. Both of these substances would be very easy to test for. Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: Robert Anastasio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:45 PM Subject: t-and-f: New performance enhancing drug(s)? A recent article on the drug bust at Giro d'Italia (http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/010629/99/bwu1t.html) mentions one and possibly two new alleged performance enhancing drugs that I never have heard of before: RSR-13 (which is being tested as a treatment for brain tumors since it increases the delivery of hemoglobin to the brain) and Hemassist which Baxter Heathcare recently stopped testing as a blood substitute (since too many people died who were using it!). Has anyone heard about any long distance runners using these drugs? The possible existence of an EPO-like drug that is not yet banned is scary. Are the unscrupulous athletes yet again one step ahead of the drug testers or isFrigo, the cyclist, just nuts? -- Robert Anastasio [EMAIL PROTECTED] LI Running Home Page: http://www.panix.com/~runner/lirun.htm
t-and-f: Croghan at Maine
I believe he had re-injured a hamstring. Felt he could get ready for some races later in the summer (obviously starting at Maine) but not in time for Nat's. Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: Dave Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Michael Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Monday, July 09, 2001 7:48 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: CanAm Results: New Balance Maine Distance Festival At 8:38 PM -0400 07.07.2001, Michael Scott wrote: >New Balance Maine Distance Festival >Bowdoin College, Brunswick, ME >7 July 2001 > > >3000 Steeplechase, Men >1, Croghan, adidas, 8:26.14; 2, Hughes, Nike, 8:32.91; 3, Gary, adidas, >8:33.49; 4, Herman, Farm Team, 8:37.29; 5, Tate, Team USA, 8:50.60; 6, >Carter, Farm Team, 8:51.84; 7, Milne, CAN, 8:54.28; 8, Bryson, Farm Team, >8:54.82; 9, Digennaro, Deleware, 9:02.31; 8, Cararra, GLRR, 9:34.91. > --- I notice Croghan shows up again. He entered USA nationals, but did not declare. Anyone know what was wrong? Dave Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: DN Galan 5k splts?
Does anybody have any splits or commentary from the 5k in Stockholm? They had priems for the last four laps, and the IAAF report claims this shotgunned Garcia's chances of running sub-13. Thanks! Buck Jones
t-and-f: Full teams to WC or Oly...
Here's a question for you stat mavens: Has any nation ever sent a complete team - i.e. three competitors (or more with wild-cards)in every event - to either the World Championships or Olympics? Men's? Women's? Both? -Curious in Columbus (Buck Jones)
Re: t-and-f: EPO Question
Hi Jason, You're a physiologist and you probably studied a lot of this, so forgive me if I'm telling you things you already know. Based on my guesses from prescribed doses used to treat anemia in chemotherapy patients, a typical regimen would run $300-$500 a week. That's based on typical pharmacy prices, if you're buying it black market who knows? Obviously it's a prescription drug and is illegal to obtain or possess without such. It comes in several formulations - either one dose per vial or many per vial. The difference is whether a preservative is added. A report came out recently indicating that some clinics were pooling and re-using the remainder of the 'one-dose' vials - lead to a bunch of sick patients. The drug is injected, either i.v. or subcutaneously (like insulin). You can learn to do that yourself with training. You would definitely need someone with medical training to do hematocrit testing on a regular basis (weekly?). The danger with EPO is driving your hematocrit too high leading to myocardial infarction or stroke - both bad. My guess is that one loses the normal homeostatic regulation of hematocrit when taking the drug exogenously (i.e. from outside the body). Normally you body responds to high hematocrit by slowing down natural production of EPO. It may also remove RBC's more quickly - not sure about the latter, but I'd bet on it. I would also bet that EPO inhibits the latter process - that's how things tend to work. When one takes EPO, despite a high crit, EPO is still present and will inhibit the bodies normal homeostatic reaction. The same kind of thing happens over time with diabetics and insulin. They lose the normal ability to correct hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) by secreting glucagon (the hormone that stimulates release of glucose from the liver). It's a side-effect of chronic injections of insulin and is part of why they are so susceptible to hypoglycemia with insulin over-doses. Many don't know this, but the other thing that is required is iron supplementation. Doping with EPO increases the synthesis of RBC's, and thus of hemoglobin. Without the iron, you could take all the EPO you wanted without making a difference. So, if one wants to dope, all one has to do is find a doctor or pharmacist who is willing to lose his or her license and perhaps go to prison, stick yourself with a needle three times a week (four if you count the hematocrit test), pony up $2000 a month, risk your health, and give up any self respect. Plus, given that you can legally drive your hematocrit up to the highest levels I would consider safe by moving to Albuquerque, I think it's really stupid. My personal opinion is that it doesn't happen in college that much. Cheers, Buck Jones p.s. To those like Garry Hill who might consider this naught but 'Reefer madness' scare tactics, I know what I'm talking about and will be glad to debate my opinions. I single Garry out because he has stated his stance before - maybe he's reformed :-) ___ Carleton 'Buck' Jones, Ph.D. Division of Pharmacology/College of Pharmacy The Ohio State University 500 W. 12th Avenue Columbus, OH 43210 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 614-688-3527 614-292-9083 (FAX) -Original Message- From: Jason Wiens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Track and Field List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 9:44 AM Subject: t-and-f: EPO Question I'm wondering what people think the prevalence of EPO use is among College athletes? How would factors like cost, availability, access to a medical doctor affect the use and possibly make its use prohibitive? Thank you for your help, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anything that enters your HEART changes YOU! _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/Research Associate_/ _/Department of VCAPP _/ _/Washington State University _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ "To love a person is to see them as God intended them to be." --Dostoyevsky
Re: t-and-f: EPO Question
Hi, I did a little more checking... For renal failure patients who don't produce sufficient EPO, the recommended dosage is 50-300 Units/kg body weight, TIW (three times a week), that works out to 3500-21000 Units for a 70kg (154 lb.) person, three times a week. Prices are right around $12.50 for 1000 Units, so that's $131.25 to $787.50 per week. However, I really have no idea what the recommended dose is for doping. I did think of another reason not to take this (if anyone needs one). EPO is a growth factor for hematopoetic cells. Another word for growth factor in the cancer research community is 'promoter.' These days, the prevailing theory is that cancer is a 'two-hit' disease (or multi-hit depending on who you talk to). 'Initiators' are agents or chemicals that cause DNA damage - that is they initiate mutations in the DNA of cells - one hit. Promoters are agents that stimulate cell growth - thus allowing populations of mutated cells to expand under the selective pressure of the immune system - survival of the fittest, meaning only the nasty ones survive - the second and subsequent hits. Both promoters and initiators are required for formation of cancers. Cigarette smoke is so carcinogenic because it contains many of both. The bottom line is, because leukemia's are cancers that would be promoted by EPO I would bet that leukemia rates are higher for people taking EPO. Just another cheery thought to brighten your day :-) -Buck -Original Message- From: alan tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 11:27 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: EPO Question Costs way too much. One vial I believe is $1000? Not sure on that though. Plus, if college athletes were using we'd see a lot faster times, world elite type times. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 >From: Jason Wiens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Jason Wiens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Track and Field List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: t-and-f: EPO Question >Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [128.223.142.13] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBD3173610046400431A380DF8E0DFCE20; Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:03:59 -0700 >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) >id f71G2BC21859for t-and-f-outgoing; Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:02:11 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from unicorn.it.wsu.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] >[134.121.1.1])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id >f71G29A21833for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:02:09 -0700 >(PDT) >Received: from localhost (jwiens@localhost)by unicorn.it.wsu.edu >(8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07504for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 1 >Aug 2001 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT) >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:05:47 -0700 >X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Precedence: bulk > > >I'm wondering what people think the prevalence of EPO use is among College >athletes? How would factors like cost, availability, access to a medical >doctor affect the use and possibly make its use prohibitive? > >Thank you for your help, > >Jason >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Anything that enters your HEART changes YOU! > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ > _/Research Associate_/ > _/Department of VCAPP _/ > _/Washington State University _/ > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ > "To love a person is to see them as God intended them to be." > --Dostoyevsky > _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: WC2001 results
I found startlists for the marathon linked at the side of the event under 'status'. Try here: http://www.iaaf.org/WCH01/Results/Timetable/010803.html They don't have the other start lists up yet. Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: Roger Ruth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, August 02, 2001 2:13 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: WC2001 results Yesterday, NETRACK posted-- >Sorry to bother everyone. What's the best link for getting timely and >up-to-minute results from the World Championships? Is it the IAAF link, or >does the WC have their own link to results? > >Cheers, >Larry I haven't seen an answer to Larry's question, and I'm finding the IAAF site, as usual, tortuous to navigate. I did get as far as a page headed Edmonton Championships--Results, but it was blank. In most track website organization, that would should startlists until results are available. Has anyone found, anywhere, startlists for events on Saturday; like 48 hours away? If it's somewhere in the IAAF site, could you give the complete URL for that particular page? It would be much appreciated. Cheers, Roger
Re: t-and-f: Post Edmonton thoughts
Conway Carnacked: <> I dunno' about the mediocrity part. Did you see that last foul by Stringfellow? I know talking about a scratch is like arguing about whether Superman could beat up the Hulk, but dang! It wasn't THAT much of a scratch and it LOOKED like a mid 28' jump and if the Hulk got REALLY mad... Cheers, Buck Jones "I'd rather be naive and wrong than cynical and right." -me
t-and-f: Radcliffe's surge
Hello all, Paula Radcliffe may be the toughest runner to stride across the planet, but she is also carving out space as one of the poorer tacticians on God's green earth. She should review some of the great front-runners and surgers of the world to make herself a better championship racer. Look at Kuts, or Ngugi, or Salazar. When you go, go until either your opponent drops or you drop. Don't just get in front and let the kickers draft - I know this, I am a sit-and-kick guy. I think that the key to a successful surge is you have to make it so convincing that you own the other person that they quit. Radcliffe was unsuccessful in the WC 10k because she surged without breaking everybody. She made a mistake in thinking she should save something for later. If she had surged with everything she had, then she wouldn't have needed that 'something' that didn't end up doing her any good anyway. Furthermore, it was clear to me that she had only a vague race plan going in, she wasn't sure where she wanted to make a move. That is deadly in a tough race. Plus, she was trying to run a race plan she hadn't done before. To do what she was trying to do against that quality of a field, she needed to decide BEFORE the race where in the race she was going to 'go'. Even as one of the toughest runners on the planet she cannot depend on her decision making ability at that point in a race with that level of fatigue. BTW, what is this fascination and admiration some people have for making a brave (losing) effort? I laugh every time I hear that quote about how Paula 'deserved' all the medals from the Olympics after her front-running effort. Oh well, fourth again, eh? To allay the flame-throwers, let me state that I really am a Paula Radcliffe fan. I was TOTALLY stoked by her XC win. I just think she gets bad advice about how to win by advisors who admire the 'noble effort'. That's so darn British! Cheers, Buck P.S. She really needs to quit saying this(I recall this is the second time): Eamonn Condon quoted The Irish Times quoting Paula Radcliffe: "EPO is not a substance that can get into the body naturally..."
Re: t-and-f: Top 10 list: What's your best running song ever?
U2: Where the streets have no name We did a running video to this tune at a camp I once worked as a counselor. We had the campers running from the other side of the hill (racing actually) - a very long lens shot, heat waves, etc. The song opens with a very rythmic instrumental and as the runners crested the hill the lyrics began, "I want to run..." Very cool :-) Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: Kevin Galbraith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Track List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Friday, August 17, 2001 10:47 AM Subject: t-and-f: Top 10 list: What's your best running song ever? Hey Track List Pals: The Jennings as Hopper-Apocalypse Now thread has started me thinking about other things peripheral to running. Have you ever gone out for a run and gotten a song stuck in your head? I find that some songs lend themselves better than others to making it through a long run on a day when you would just as soon stay home and de-frost the freezer. I'd like to nominate "Run Like Hell" by Pink Floyd from the album "The Wall" as one of the best running songs ever. What do you all think. Kevin Galbraith Assistant Track Coach Long Beach State
t-and-f: New 1500m rule...
And just how would you word that rule? Buck Jones -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sunday, August 19, 2001 6:59 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races In a message dated 8/19/01 7:41:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Here's hoping when/if El Guerrouj contests the 5000 final in Paris 2003 that any other Moroccans who may be in the race will be running for themselves! >> Though the rules seem to apply only to lapped runners providing pacing assistance (Bob Hersh?), I feel that El Guerrouj and Kaouch should have been disqualified for violating the spirit of "fair play", especially since officials were aware of what happened in 1999. You know the old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me". The IAAF should be embarrassed by what happened and should send out a warning that any further occurrences will be dealt with harshly. Walt Murphy
Pullman (was: Re: altitude (was: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!))
However, the WSU track is the only one I've ever run on that has a headwind all the way around. Buck Jones, amateur meteorologist for the day -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: RE: altitude (was: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin! In a message dated Mon, 20 Aug 2001 2:09:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Rono DID run 13:20-some-odd-seconds in a driving blizzard in Pullman -- a feat > which hasn't yet been matched.> i know i've mentioned this on the list before, but i'm no longer impressed by great distance runs under adversely cold conditions. In all my years here, I've lost track of the number of times that a great distance time has been prefaced with words along the line of "despite the bitingly cold temperature and frigid winds." So many, in fact, that I'm convinced that the wicking-away-body-heat factor is so great that it may well be an ADVANTAGE to run distance races in miserable (on the cold side) conditions. Rarely, if ever, do you see the "despite the" line attached to overly warm, because that can't be done. gh, amateur physiologist for a day
GL predictions was:t-and-f: Stuff from Van Damme site
Alan Shank wrote: "I wonder whether El Guerrouj's decision to stay in the 1500 rather than moving up to 5000 has anything to do with the jackpot?" Would El G. actually consider it worth it? Given that Szekely already has a share, Jones, Bucher, and Johnson will probaly all get one of their two wins to get a share, and of the other five (including El G) I would expect 2 or 3 to get them, then the jackpot is going to be split 6 or 7 ways. With the current price of gold around $275, 50kg of gold is worth 'only' $484,000 - that's about $69,142 per athlete if 7 get it, or $80,667 for 6. Note that I only wrote this so I could be a numbers geek on the list too :-) Here's something more relevant: I predict these athletes will share the gold: Szekely - duh Jones, Bucher, and Johnson - can't see any of them losing two in a row Yegorova - unless, of course, she's the victim of a small, blond, romanian, flying tackle :-) Actually, colusion twixt Radcliffe, Szabo, Wami, and Adere, might be effective, but I don't see it happening. Guerrouj - if he runs them, he will win them And these won't: Graf - Mutola should take one or both of the remainders from her, and if not Holmes might take one Boit Kipketer - hard to win a race you're not entered in. What happened to this guy? Three GL wins in a row, 8:01 - then not at the WC and abyssmal in Zurich (although I wish I could be so abyssmal :-) Dilworth - too inconsistent Cheers, Buck Jones
Re: t-and-f: Altitude correction... opinion stands...
Michael Contopoulos blathered: <> All of the science IS simple experimentation. <> You need to learn the difference between post hoc analysis and a controlled study. Chapman has an opinion AND evidence to support it on his side - you have simply an opinion. What, you don't believe the guy ran his best race at the World Championships? Cheers, Buck Jones
t-and-f: Van Damme 200 (results)
So when did Michael change his name to Joshua? :-) Conversely, who the heck is Joshua Johnson? 200m from the website http://www.memorialvandamme.be/re0020040.html 1 JOHNSON, Joshua USA MR 19.88 2 WILLIAMS, Bernard USA 20.01 3 MALCOM, Christian GBR 20.09 4 BOLDON, Ato TRI 20.24 5 ZAKARI , Abdul Aziz GHA 20.27 6 OBIKWELU, Francis NGR 20.33 7 BUCKLAND, Stéphane MRI 20.42 8 DEVONISH, MarlonGBR 20.50 9 LITTLE, Kevin USA 20.58 >From 10.22 and 20.48 on the 2001 lists to a 19.88 is AMAZING! Cheers, Buck
t-and-f: Deeper Padua Results, but I want more
By going through the Italian governing body website, you can get 6-deep results: http://www.fidal.it/news/2001/00_news_padores.php Any suggestions about where one might find complete results of this meet? Thanks! Buck -Original Message- From: Kebba Tolbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Monday, August 27, 2001 10:49 AM Subject: t-and-f: Padua Results from iaaf.org 26 August 2001 Padua, Italy Men 100 1. Uchenna Emedolu, Nigeria, 10.21 seconds. 2, Aziz Zakari, Ghana, 10.26. 3,Maurizio Checcucci, Italy, 10.38. 400= 1, Sanderlei Parrella, Brazil, 45.51. 2, Jerome Davis, United States, 46.16. 3, Manura Kuranage, 46.72 1500 1, Kevin Sullivan, Canada, 3 minutes, 34.05 seconds. 2, Salalah El Ghazi, Marocco 3:34.26. 3, Hudson De Souza, Brazil, 3:34.39. 2000 Steeplechase 1, John Langat, Kenya, 5:18.61. 2, Stanley Kibiwott, Kenya,5:20.60. 3, Benson Koech, Kenya, 5:21.26. 110 hurdles 1, Anier Garcia, Cuba, 13.41. 2, Yoel Hernandez, Cuba, 13.50. 3, Stanislavs Olijars, Latvia, 13.69. 400 hurdles 1, Fabrizio Mori, Italy, 48.72, 2, Ian Weakley, Jamaica, 49.00. 3, Joey Woody, United States, 49.31. Long Jump 1, James Beckford, Jamaica, 8.24. 2, Joan Martinez, Cuba, 8.13. 3,Siniza Ergotic, Croatia, 8.09. Shot Put 1, Paolo Dal Soglio, Italy, 20.67. 2, Adam Nelson, United States, 20.66. 3, Corrado Fantini, Italy, 18.62. Women 100 1, Zhanna Pintusevich-Block, Ukraine, 11.22. 2, Endurance Ojokolo, Nigeria, 11.33, 3, Manuela Levorato, Italy, 11.34. 400 1, Nadijna Kaltouma, Chad, 51.10. 2, Monique Hennagan, United States,51.15, 3, Suzianne Reid, United States, 51.69. 800 1, Diane Cummins, Canada, 1:58.57. 2, Argentina Paulino, Mozambique, 2:00.23. 3, Charmaine Howell, Jamaica, 2:01.55. 100 hurdles 1, Aliuska Lopez, Cuba, 13.01. 2, Melissa Morrison, United States, 13.10. 3, Vonette Dixon, Jamaica, 13.14. Pole Vault 1, Yelena Isimbayeva, Russia, 4.10. Krisztina Molnar, Hungary, 4.00. 3, Anna Giordano Bruno, Italy, 3.80. Triple jump 1, Magdelin Martinez, Italy, 14.46. 2, Baya Rahouli, Algeria, 13.69. 3, Maria Costanza Moroni, Italy, 13.32. Kebba Tolbert ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) = Men's and Women's Jumps & Multis Coach Syracuse University Track & Field _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: USATF News & Notes: August 29, 2001
Some irrelevant comments from me: <<...Hanna ran the challenging course in 6 hours, 43 minutes, 9 seconds, finishing second... ...ahead of Fetizon, who finished a little more than a half second behind in 6:44:48.>> I guess in a 100k race a minute and 39 seconds IS just a little more than a half a second. <> Well, maybe they meant 'head-coaching career' for Price-Smith. She has been doing a HECK of a job with the throwers here at The Ohio State University for a while. Cheers, Buck Jones
Re: t-and-f: How about a mile steeplechase?
The 2k Steeple seems fairly common (as common as a 1000?) I've been looking at results from permit meetings in Italy, and Langat's 5:18's would put him at the mile in about 4:15. I don't see a sub-four mile-steeple happening any time soon. Padua 8/26: 1 LANGAT John KEN 5:18.61 2 KIBIWOTT Stanley KEN 5:20.60 3 KOECH Benson KEN 5:21.26 4 BROE Tim USA 5:22.97 5 TARUS Philip KEN 5:26.90 6 IANNELLI Angelo ITA 5:28.70 7 GARY Robert 73 USA5:29.62 8 CIALLELLA Stefano 74 ITA 5:31.54 9 DI PARDO Luciano 75 ITA 5:39.68 10 FERRACIN Riccardo 79 ITA 5:54.27 Rovereto 8/29: 1. John LANGAT KEN 5:18.51 2. Stanley KIBIWOTT KEN 5:18.60 3. Philip TARUS KEN 5:26.71 4. Luciano DI PARDO ITA 5:27.89 5. Angelo IANNELLI ITA 5:28.22 6. Laid BESSOU ALG 5:28.48 7. Francesco CIALELLA ITA5:29.11 8. Robert GARY USA 5:30.36 9. Jury FLORIANI ITA 5:32.73 10. Angelo GIARDIELLO ITA5:45.86 11. Alberto MOSCA ITA5:51.30 12. Roberto SERAFIN ITA 6:05.06 Benson KOECH KENDNF Martin PROLL AUTDNS Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: Edward Koch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Tom Derderian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:59 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: How about a mile steeplechase? Wasn't the 2k the Junior Steeple distance at one time? It is the Junior Olympic distance in the USA. Ed Koch -Original Message- From: Tom Derderian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, August 30, 2001 8:43 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: How about a mile steeplechase? >When I was a freshman in college UMASS 1967, there was such a thing as a >1500 meter steeplechase. It was a good introduction to the event because a >young runner could go fast enough to fly over the hurdles and jump before >going into the death march when the barriers grow to six feet high. Too bad >the event vanished the next year. It would be good for the development of >the event to go a mile, or 1500, or 2km, but a mile would capture the >imagination. Now we have to think through the placement of the barriers and >jumps, start and finish, measure, inside and out, etc., >Tom Derderian, too old for 36" hurdles too young for 30". >- Original Message - >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:33 AM >Subject: t-and-f: How about a mile steeplechase? > > >> Y ask: >> >> I was on vacation the day BB No. 2 got steeple record -- the news was >buried in agate in most papers. Got me to thinking: Are world-class >steeplers capable of running barriers and water jumps under 4 minutes for a >mile? What would the mile steeple entail -- 8 barriers and 3 water jumps? >Anyone ever consider this? >> >> Ken Stone >> http://www.crazytrackideas.com >
Re: t-and-f: suggested reading
OK, nevermind, the article is worth skipping. I have rarely read such a total load of crappola. There was so much pseudo-scientific bulls**t and logical falacy that I almost didn't make it through the article. I've not time for a thourough rebuttal, but suffice to say, one should recognize as fallacious an argument that requires its conclusion as a premise. Here's the bottom line, and the thing that really pisses me off. The fatalistic CRAP that acccepts doping as the only way to compete. BULL! IT'S CHEATING! If it's a choice between cheating and losing then you F***ING LOSE! Have some integrity! Dammit I'm tired of this! Buck Jones - Original Message - From: "Jim McLatchie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: suggested reading > Ok GH, scan it , and lets see it. > > thanks, > > Jim > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >I hate to bring up anything drug-related, but given the list's general passion for the subject, I feel I should cite a terrifically well-written article on the subject, called "Drugstore Athlete" that appeared in the September 10 issue of The New Yorker. > > > >I have no idea if it's available in any on-line format; a hard copy just finally crossed my desk. > > > >gh > > > > >
Re: t-and-f: suggested reading
Try here: http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_08_10_a_drug.htm I believe that is a site allowed to reprint the article (i.e. the author's site). One should respect copyright. Cheers, Buck - Original Message - From: "Jim McLatchie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: suggested reading > Ok GH, scan it , and lets see it. > > thanks, > > Jim > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >I hate to bring up anything drug-related, but given the list's general passion for the subject, I feel I should cite a terrifically well-written article on the subject, called "Drugstore Athlete" that appeared in the September 10 issue of The New Yorker. > > > >I have no idea if it's available in any on-line format; a hard copy just finally crossed my desk. > > > >gh > > > > >
Re: t-and-f: dude with range
How 'bout Sean Messiter: 3:41 1500 and made the final of the '92 OT 6'4" HJ Those were in the same time frame too - the HJ at one of Club NW/Bill Roe's classic All-Comer's meets in Seattle ca. 1994 Cheers, Buck - Original Message - From: "Michael Bartolina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 2:48 AM Subject: RE: t-and-f: dude with range > > Talkin' of horizonal and vertical range- > > Joe Dial has the best of any guy I know of: > > 19'6" vault > > 4:20 mile > > Barto. > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
t-and-f: Advice to HS kids (was: Goucher)
Sorry if this is a little off the mark from the 'elite' described in the list charter, but note the quote in this article by CU assistant coach Jason Drake: "A kid who shows interest in us is who we're interested in." The absolute BEST piece of advice to give highschool kids interested in collegiate running, and the first one I say any time I'm asked: Write to the program you're interested in (I REALLY wish someone had given me that comment in highschool). Coaches very, very rarely will contact you first. Please pass that on to any highschooler's you know. Stepping down from the soapbox now (but taking it with me for later use), Buck - Original Message - From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "B. Kunnath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:37 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Goucher was Jacobs Enters U.S. Cross Country Championships > > > "B. Kunnath" wrote: > > > any news about Adam Gouchers participation, or what his plans are for this > > year? > > Bob > > > > _ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > Go here for a Goucher update: > http://www.runningstats.com/Pages/743/Players.html > Regards, > > > Martin > > >
Re: t-and-f: Need Help--Nyquil OK?
Hi Walt, Nyquil, like many cold medications, contains pseudoephedrine as a decongestant. It is banned as a stimulant. Note also that although it has decent efficacy for the first dose, it becomes much less efficacious very quickly. Not to mention that a good surge of adrenaline or about 5-10 minutes of exercise are even more effective. Here is the short version of why: the targets of both pseudoephedrine and adrenaline are 'alpha-adrenergic' receptors in the nasal membrane. Adrenaline is a much better agonist (activator) and is released at pretty high levels all through exercise. Furthermore, pseudoephedrine is apparently not what really is activating those receptors when you take the drug. What its doing is displacing norepinephrine from presynaptic neurons in the nasal membranes (norepinephrine is very similar to adrenaline which is more accurately called epinephrine). That norepinephrine is what activates the target receptors. After a few doses, there is little norepinephrine to be displaced by the pseudoephedrine which thus begins displacing only pseudoephedrine - a much less powerful activator of the receptor targets. Just remember this - adrenaline released by exercise is the best decongestant. The other active ingredients in Nyquil are: Doxylamine is an antihistamine like Benadryl, and is not banned. Dextromethorphan is an antitussive (cough suppressant). This drug (which I have an extremely hard time pronouncing for some reason) is chemically similar to codeine, but is a mirror image (stereoisomer) that does not have analgesic or addictive properties. It is not banned and interestingly enough neither is codeine. Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is a pain and fever reducer (but not an anti-inflammatory BTW) and is not banned. My recommendation would be to take the latter three as generic drugs individually for each symptom as needed - the pseudoephedrine, as I explained, is not really necessary anyway. Dextromethorphan, BTW, is often combined with an expectorant, guaifenesin, which is fine. If that's not more than you ever wanted to know, here are two resources for more information: http://medlineplus.gov/ A very good site sposored by NIH (ie the U.S. Government) for medical and drug questions. Very readable, but VERY complete. http://www.usantidoping.org This is the official US site and has pretty good references for what is and is not banned - more specifically go to http://www.usantidoping.org/prohibited_sub/wallet_card.asp Cheers, Buck ___ Carleton 'Buck' Jones, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Researcher Division of Pharmacology/College of Pharmacy The Ohio State University 500 W. 12th Avenue Columbus, OH 43210 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 614-688-3527 614-292-9083 (FAX) - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 10:55 AM Subject: t-and-f: Need Help--Nyquil OK? > One of the athletes here in Lincoln is asking if Nyquil is ok to use. If not, > can anyone suggest an equivalent cold remedy that's not on the banned list? > > Walt Murphy
t-and-f: Runners in the 12k?
Regarding the recent US XC Champs, can somebody who was there provide more information about all of the runners listed as DNS in the 12k? Unfortunately I had to hop on a plane soon after the 4k and was thus unable to watch the 12k XC race Sunday. Another observer mentioned that many listed as DNS actually did start but dropped out. Specifically, he said that Hauser was near the lead until quite late in the race. Can anybody provide a blow-by-blow? Furthermore, what is the status of the team finish? Was there a protest regarding team affiliations and what was the fallout? My apologies if this engenders rumors, as I'm actually trying to dispel them :-) Cheers, Buck
Re: t-and-f: Now if more people had balls like these, esp in MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, etc
John Sun Wrote: >Yegorova had only an A positive Do I recall this incorrectly? I thought Yeg (nice nickname RT) failed the urine test (A & B) but was re-instated partly because the test is new and not yet completely vetted for use, and partly because a concurrent blood test was not performed to confirm high hematocrit (as was required by IAAF). In Edmonton, her crit was high, but she passed the urine test. I find it a fascinating indicator of how American laws make us more free than almost any other place, but at the same time we are constrained so strictly by those same laws. Under US law, Yeg is innocent, and as such could probably not be banned from a meet as she was in France. US citizens are more protected by law on the one hand, but more restricted on the other. Cheers, Buck Jones
t-and-f: Regional qualifying
Kebba Tolbert wrote: <> I would actually take this the opposite way. What the SEC meet highlights is that there are athletes qualifying for NC's that can't make the final of their conference meet. And this is better than regionals? Of course the strongest argument for the current system (and the one that Kebba is supporting) is that with regional qualifying, very strong regions would be under-represented at NC's. But I think that issue can be resolved or at least alleviated by weighting regions based on either previous or current performance. It boils down to which type of athlete you think should be in the championship meet. Simply put (perhaps over-simply) I think the competitors should be in - not the guys who can time-trial. Once you decide which philosophy you'd like to support, you can start fixing the specific problems associated with that method of qualifying. Cheers, Buck Jones
t-and-f: SEC Champs and regional qualifying
Bruce Lehane wrote: > Your [Richard McCann's] point about prefering athletes who compete well against others over those > who post strong marks would carry much more weight if all athletes in a given > event were competing head to head for spots. But in regionalization they do not, > they only compete against the athletes in their own region. Well, I would argue that that certainly is head-to-head competition, at least in the region. Don't tell some athlete trying to get the last qualifying spot while gutting it out down the stretch or stepping into the ring for one last throw that he/she is is not competing. > Obviously, if a > region is weak in an event it is much easier to win or place in that event. The > choice then isn't between good time trial runners versus good competitors. I think this can be addressed by weighting the number of qualifiers so stronger regions get more. Certainly one cannot create a perfect weighting system, but I would think one could get as close to fair as the current system which favors athletes able to travel to more and/or better meets (the weather factor too). > The choice is, given the imperfection of either qualification process, whether those > who deserve to go to nationals lays more with those who post the top marks or > with those who make it through demonstrably uneven regional rounds. The real choice is which set of imperfections can you fix, and which set of benefits do you really want. What I think you are ignoring is all of the sequelae that go along with your choice. The point that Richard McCann, Joe Rubio, and I (among others) are making is that the beneficial effects on meet quality that would be created by regional qualifying far outweigh those associated with the current system. Heh heh... I feel silly. I spent some time outlining what I thought was a pretty darn fine idea (below), and then I went to the NCAA site to get some statistics. So then I found and read this: http://www.ncaachampionships.com/0,5920,1_715_0_9658,00.html and read that a pretty similar proposal is already in the works. I leave it to the gentle reader to decide if I just copied :-) I'll leave what I wrote at the bottom, as I put in some numbers they didn't, and because I hate to delete stuff I've already written. Cheers, Buck If you'd like (and if you were king as I'd like to be), you could leaven the process of regional qualifying by providing automatic entry to the top X performers not selected by place. You could even pick the top performances based on marks made at regional's, although obviously that brings in venue and weather. I really like the idea of a hybrid system. Have 7 regions - gerrymander them as needed to balance strengths and minimize travel budgets. Take the top 4 placers from each event at each meet plus the top 4 performers that didn't place in the top four in their region to make a 32 athlete field. Or, to weight the regions, take the top three plus one more for every athlete from the region that made the final at NC's the year before. That's 29 athletes, plus take the next best 3 to make 32. That means 3 qualify from a weak region, but up to 14 could qualify from a region that scored all 8 places in the previous year final, plus had the next 3 fastest marks. Or if those field sizes are too big, have 6 regions and go top 2 (12), plus the bonus for previous finalists (8), plus 4 performances to make 24. Weak regions get 2, strong regions still get up to 14. There are currently about 9300 male track athletes in 19 individual and 2 relay events. Assuming no-one does just relay duty, for 7 regions that would participation on the order of 70/event in each hypothetical region. I would think qualifying standards could be set that would pare those fields to 32 without creating the mark-chasing that exists now. (No D1 coach will fly a guy to a meet to chase a 14:40 5000). Or better, just take the top 32 performers - I think people chasing a specific standard is much of the current problem.
Mile results ( was: t-and-f: uw indoor results)
Wow, that's a pretty darn hot mile! It must be awesome to run on that track - the distance times coming out of there are really fast. I realize these are not quite world class times, but I think those are PR's for the first 4 (althoug Sage ran 3:39 for a 1500 last year which is a better time). Men¹s Mile Run Provisional: 4:05.20/Automatic: 4:00.70* (* -- 300-meter track) 1. Eric Garner (UW) 3:58.93 2. Don Sage (STAN) 3:59.49 3. Brandon Strong (ASU) 3:59.93 4. Ray Hughes (Nike) 3:59.78 5. Noel Paulson (ORE) 4:04.31 6. Todd Arnold (UW) 4:06.04 7. Matt Johnston (VRTC) 4:06.63 8. Steve Loughlin (STAN) 4:06.97 9. Zach Whitmarsh (PAC) 4:09.38 10.Preston Brashers (UW) 4:15.84 Anybody have some sort of blow-by-blow desription of the race? Eric? Thanks! Buck
Pharmaco-economics was: t-and-f: Olympic DQ's
I always chuckle to myself when I read the oft-repeated idea that the athletes are ahead of the testers when it comes to science. How cheap and easy do they think it is to do this stuff? Where do I send a grant proposal to get some of that science funding from athletes? Could some of the sub-rosa scientists that interpret the literature for the 'athletes' please include me in their clipping service? I'm tired of getting only the slow, second-rate science that is available to me, I'd like to reach the cutting edge too. Take a guess at how much money Amgen spent developing EPO. Granted, a LOT of that money goes to clinical trials, but a HUGE amount of money is still required to do the basic R&D. Heck, my little research project alone cost about $100,000 for the last year, and I'm just a post-doc, so not a whole lot of that was salary :-) Cheers, Buck p.s. The standard cost estimate for a drug like Procrit to reach the market these days is about a billion dollars. Really, that's a 'b' at the start of that amount. Friend of mine does pharmacokinetic research for Abbott. His job is one of those in the 'critical path' meaning every extra day he takes on a project is an extra day before the drug hits the market. He recalls the day one of his bosses (VP for research) mentioned that each of those days costs the company roughly $1-2 million. That's because to recoup those R&D dollars, the drug needs to hit gross sales of $500 million to $1 billion a year for the 10 years of patent protection typically left for a specific drug once it reaches the market. Divide by 365 and that's $1.4 - 2.8 million per day. - Original Message - From: "Ed and Dana Parrot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ""Athletics"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 1:18 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Olympic DQ's I believe that the East German documents found several years ago indicated, among other things, that their scientists were involved with experimenting on athletes with drugs that we still being "developed" but promised to be effective. I suspect that's not exactly what Dan was referring to, but it is one example to suport his observation. However, aside from that, all I have heard is "speculation", nothing that approaches fact. The most encouraging thing about the DPO positives is that perhaps the testers have gotten just a tiny bit closer to the athletes in the testing race. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: "Dan Kaplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'track list'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 9:22 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Olympic DQ's > Hmm, putting me on the spot... I was specifically thinking of Charlie > Francis' references to arsenic and stric nine (sp?) being used as > performance enhancers in small volumes, as well as prescription drugs not > yet on the market at the time being popular commodities. I've read > several other accounts over the years, some here on the list, but I cannot > cite any specifics off hand. > > Dan > > --- malmo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You must have better sources than I do. In all the years I've never > > heard of such nonsense. > > > > Could you provide a bibliography for us slow-lane types, please? > > > > Thank you, > > > > malmo > > > > -Original Message- > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dan Kaplan > > > > From what I've read of performance enhancing drug use, it's not at all > > uncommon for athletes to experiment with truly experimental drugs to > > get that extra edge. So something that was "developed" by '83 was > > probably in R&D by at least '80 and may have been making the rounds that > > far back. > > > > Dan > > > = > http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. > http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F > > @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) > _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) >/ / (503)370-9969 phone/fax > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ >
Re: t-and-f: Nike, Cross Nationals, USATF
A team is only allowed to declare 6 runners. Obviously Nike has more affiliated runners than that, but that doesn't mean they get to declare as many as they want. Of the six they picked before the race, only two finished - ergo, no score. The ire over 'cheating' is generated by the fact that they knew only 2 of their declared six had finished but took the trophy stand anyway. Cheers, Buck - Original Message - From: "Post, Marty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Michael Contopoulos'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:57 AM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Nike, Cross Nationals, USATF According to results I saw Nike runners placed 1,2, 8, 17 for a total of 28 points ahead of adidas 3, 7, 14, 20 with 44. These places don't jive with actual finishing places, because I'm guessing unattached athletes were displaced from team scoring numbers. In any case "Nike" affiliated athletes like Mike Donnelly and Nolan Swanson actually did finish. I don't get what's going on here. -Original Message- From: Michael Contopoulos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:02 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Nike, Cross Nationals, USATF So Nike cheated and has been stripped of their win from Cross Nationals by not fielding a full team. Their declaration of 6 runners (4 of whom score) included Brent Hauser, Brad Hauer, Bolata Asmeron and Chad Johnson. They all dnf'd, leaving only 2 actual scoring finishers (Abdi and Meb). Clearly Nike knew this when they accepted their trophy. According to one Letsrun.com poster, and a member of the Nike Team: "I knew when I finished and I saw both Hausers, Chad Johnson, and Asmeron had dropped that we had lost the team title. I even asked about it and was told to keep quiet..." This is one of the most unethical things a team can do... and don't tell me Nike was unaware of the fact that they didn't field a full team... several watchers called it the day of the meet. Clearly the coaches knew. Is anyone as pissed as I am? And why hasn't Craig Masback given an explanation on the USATF website as to why Adidas is the new National Champ? I'm surprised no one has brought this up...anyone close to the situation have any insight on Nike's cheating ways? Mike _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Nike, Cross Nationals, USATF
Oops, my apologies to Paul Banta. Obviously I spoke out of turn when I posted: "The ire over 'cheating' is generated by the fact that they knew only 2 of their declared six had finished but took the trophy stand anyway," as I was not there Sunday. Cheers, Buck - Original Message - From: "Paul Banta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 11:30 AM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Nike, Cross Nationals, USATF Mike, Your "facts" are not correct. Nike was presented the women's team trophy at the completion of the USATF Winter Cross Country Championships last month in Vancouver, WA. Adidas was presented the men's trophy. I am not aware of any action by the Nike team to claim the men's team trophy. And before you are tempted to question my memory, handling the trophies was one of my responsibilities at the championships. I can assure you that adidas has the men's trophy and Nike has the women's trophy because I personally got the trophies engraved and took them to each of their corporate headquarters. Paul Banta -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Michael Contopoulos Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:02 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Nike, Cross Nationals, USATF So Nike cheated and has been stripped of their win from Cross Nationals by not fielding a full team. Their declaration of 6 runners (4 of whom score) included Brent Hauser, Brad Hauer, Bolata Asmeron and Chad Johnson. They all dnf'd, leaving only 2 actual scoring finishers (Abdi and Meb). Clearly Nike knew this when they accepted their trophy. According to one Letsrun.com poster, and a member of the Nike Team: "I knew when I finished and I saw both Hausers, Chad Johnson, and Asmeron had dropped that we had lost the team title. I even asked about it and was told to keep quiet..." This is one of the most unethical things a team can do... and don't tell me Nike was unaware of the fact that they didn't field a full team... several watchers called it the day of the meet. Clearly the coaches knew. Is anyone as pissed as I am? And why hasn't Craig Masback given an explanation on the USATF website as to why Adidas is the new National Champ? I'm surprised no one has brought this up...anyone close to the situation have any insight on Nike's cheating ways? Mike _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Relay Dream Teams
I'd have to go with: 4x1 1 - Bob Hayes 2 - Maurice Greene 3 - Donovan Bailey 4 - Carl Lewis I just don't see how you could leave Lewis out of this. He was my first pick by a long, long way. About the only question I had was who to run on the curves. If it weren't that Bailey proved he could run a great curve (ask MJ...) I would sub Ato or Frankie for the third spot. Perhaps start Maurice and put Hayes on the back stretch, but I don't know that Mo' is the best starter in the world. He certainly can run a good corner, though so maybe put hime third and Bailey 1st. Linford Christie and Leroy Burrell certainly have some claim to a dream team as well (and I'm surely showing my age biases). How about the team above against: 1 - Leroy Burrell 2 - Ato Bolden 3 - Frankie Fredricks 4 - Ato Bolden Whooowhee...! For 4 x 4, 1 - Butch Reynolds 2 - Quincy Watts 3 - Steve Lewis 4 - Michael Johnson That seems much easier to grok than the 4x1. I like Reynolds over Everett, but I might take Everett over Lewis... Race that team against: 1 - Danny Everett (what the hey, he's got the LR, 'leg record') 2 - Roger Black (in a relay, this guy could hang with anybody) 3 - Alberto Juantorena (If he had the lead, nobody could get around him) 4 - Lee Evans As much as I enjoyed coming up with the second team, I'd bet every nickle I have on the first team against the second, or for that matter any other team anybody thinks up. Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: Conway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: T&FMail List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Friday, January 19, 2001 9:05 AM Subject: t-and-f: Relay Dream Teams All the talk yesterday about relay legs gave rise to the following thought ... If I could put together any foursome in the 4 x 1 and 4 x 4 who would it be ??? Here's what I would consider to be Dream Teams in the relays .. Any better ?? 4x1 1- Jon Drummond 2- Ron Brown 3 - Calvin Smith 4- Bob Hayes 4x4 1- Danny Everett 2 - Quincy Watts 3 - Steve Lewis 4 - Michael Johnson Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Dream team 2 - oops...
Oops! I meant to put Linford Christie as my anchor on 4x1 Dream Team 2, making: 1 - Leroy Burrell 2 - Ato Bolden 3 - Frankie Fredricks 4 - Linford Christie As it was I had Ato carrying leg two and then hustling over to run the anchor too. Heh... ___ Carleton 'Buck' Jones, Ph.D. Division of Pharmacology College of Pharmacy The Ohio State University Columbus, OH 43210 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Where did the following high school milers go to college?
I expect many on this list know that Lee LaBadie went to Ohio State (running under 4:00 for the mile, BTW). Lee later coached at OSU for many years. He now coaches athletes privately in Columbus, including Rob Gary, Mark Croghan, Chris England, and recently Raymond Wheeler (you may know him as 3:42 of VA). Lee is a charitable guy, letting yours truly come out to workouts and hang onto the back of the pack :-) Cheers, Buck Jones -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 11:12 AM Subject: t-and-f: Where did the following high school milers go to college? Where did the following all-time high school indoor milers go to college? 4:09.7c Dave Merrick (Lincoln-Way, New Lenox, IL) 1971 4:09.95e Abdirzak Mohamud' (Boston English, Jamaica Plain, MA) 1998 4:10.0b Lee LaBadie (Maine West, Des Plains, IL) 1968 4:10.31d Mark Dani (Valhalla, El Cajon, CA) 1986 4:10.5c Andy DiConti (La Canada, CA) 1980 4:09.8 Bill Fritz (Glenbard West, Glen Ellyn, IL) 1974 4:10.0 Reo Rorem (Gilman, IL) 1976 4:10.3 Reed Fischer (Highland Park, Dallas, TX) 1972 Thanks, Keith Conning, Vacaville, CA HIGH SCHOOL TRACK 2001 BY JACK SHEPARD Men's All-Time Indoor Mile List 3:59.86e Alan Webb (South Lakes, VA) 2001 (Michigan 2005) 4:02.7c Thom Hunt (Henry, San Diego, CA) 1976 (Feb. 1, San Diego) (Arizona) 4:06.6d Vince Cartier (Scotch Plains-Fanwood, Scotch Plains, NJ) 1972 (Florida) 4:07.10c Michael Stember (Jesuit, Carmichael, CA) 1996 (Stanford 2001) 4:07.12e Jonathon Riley (Brookline, MA) 1997 (Stanford 2001) 4:07.2d Jim Ryun (East, Wichita, KS) 1965 (Kansas) 4:07.34c *Andy Powell (Oliver Ames, North Easton, MA) 1998 (Stanford 2003) 4:07.61d John Trautman (Monroe-Woodbury, Central Valley, NY) 1986 (Georgetown) 4:07.69d Reuben Reina (John Jay, San Antonio, TX) 1986 (Arkansas 1990) 4:07.87d *Webb 2000 4:08.0c Kevin Byrne (Catholic, Paramus, NJ) 1977 (Georgetown) 4:08.0c Byrne 1977 4:08.06d Eric Mastalir (Jesuit, Carmichael, CA) 1986 (Stanford) 4:08.13d Sharif Karie' (West Springfield, Springfield, VA) 1997 (Lindenwood/Arkansas) 4:08.19e Ryan Travis (Sumner, Kentwood, LA) 1997 (Arkansas 2001) 4:08.62d Seneca Lassiter (Lafayette, Williamsburg, VA) 1995 (Arkansas 1999) 4:09.7c Dave Merrick (Lincoln-Way, New Lenox, IL) 1971 4:09.95e Abdirzak Mohamud' (Boston English, Jamaica Plain, MA) 1998 4:10.0b Lee LaBadie (Maine West, Des Plains, IL) 1968 4:10.31d Mark Dani (Valhalla, El Cajon, CA) 1986 4:10.5c Andy DiConti (La Canada, CA) 1980 4:10.59d Robert Kennedy (North, Westerville, OH) 1988 (Indiana 1992) Oversized track: 4:05.4 Dave Merrick (Lincoln-Way, New Lenox, IL) 1971 4:07.4 *Merrick 1970 4:07.9 Craig Virgin (Lebanon, IL) 1973 (Illinois) 4:09.8 Bill Fritz (Glenbard West, Glen Ellyn, IL) 1974 4:10.0 Reo Rorem (Gilman, IL) 1976 4:10.3 Reed Fischer (Highland Park, Dallas, TX) 1972
t-and-f: Where did the following high school milers go to college?
Color me red... Lee Labadie, of course *ran* for the Illini... Just coached the Buckeyes. Oh well, one Big Ten school is the same as any other, right? Heh, heh... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 1:00 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Where did the following high school milers go to college? would you believe Illinois? (maybe OSU grad schnool) g
Re: t-and-f: Bob Kennedy/NY Times
Larry opined: "We are much better off keeping our elite track athletes away from the road running craze" Can't agree with this. I think what gets most athletes that burn out because of road racing is that they just don't love to race - they love to be good. Different animal. If you love to race, then you won't hurt yourself by running on the roads. But, if you lose a little of your desire to race every time you run, then the road racing will hurt you. Personally, I've always loved running on the roads and on the track. I would race 100 times a year if I had the time. I always found the road racing actually helped. Certainly gives a lesson in tactics to do a race where time doesn't matter too much. I think the problem with a lot of our elite athletes is that they don't love to run. They run because they are good at it. Take away some of their success or ability and they would find something else to do. The truly successful are the ones who just get off on hammering out 10 x 400 - especially with a bunch of other competittive guys or gals. Part of the reason the Oregon program under Dellinger was so successful was it was FUN to go to workouts and compete with the 40-50 guys who showed up to crank up the intervals. If you couldn't win the workout, you'd be out to win the warmdown - and I don't think that's a bad thing. Most of us ran a heck of a lot faster than we thought we could. The crap about not competing in workouts has held back a lot of good runners, and its time to change that thinking. If we get our athletes motivated by a love of competing, as opposed to a fear of losing, we'll have greater success. Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, February 01, 2001 6:32 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Bob Kennedy/NY Times In his N.Y. Times article "Kennedy Returns After Olympic Disappointment," Marc Bloom writes"He has been much admired by his peers as an 'honorary Kenyan." Passing up prize money in road racing, Kennedy stuck to the events on the track. A simple statement, but one often overlooked by athletes and coaches. The sooner we return to a focus on the track with our elite athletes, the better chance we have of producing a Bob Kennedy, Todd Williams or a Lynn Jennings. We are much better off keeping our elite track athletes away from the road running craze. Just my 2 cents. Larry
Re: t-and-f: Lifelike Portrayals
Of course, those of us doing the running scenes with Leto were having a hard time not tripping over him :-) Have you ever tried to run 70 pace while looking like your running 64 pace and suffering? It really was amazing how good the make-up people were on this. John Hill, an All-American steepler from Washington State, was Leto's double for a lot of the running scenes - everybody called him "Fake-Pre". They would use John to set up the shots - we extras running along with him. Then Leto would step in and they would shoot 'for real'. It was weird how much he looked like phots I had seen of Prefontaine, and yet was still recognizable as John. Leto was nice enough, but definitely didn't have a realistic idea of how fast runners really were. The story was that Hill was actually the second choice for Leto's double. Apparantly Jonathan Swanson originally had the job, a Club Northwest guy with a 3:43ish 1500 speed. Unfortunatly Swanson was a little too competitive. Leto had trained some for the running scenes and was feeling pretty good about the 400m splits he was running and let people know it. Swanson had had enough at one point and simply buried Leto over the next 400. Thus, a new 'Fake-Pre' was born :-) Disclaimer - I don't know if I have the story completely right, please check with the next rumor-monger for a different version. Cheers, Buck - A.K.A. Ted Castaneda -Original Message- From: T. Jordan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Friday, February 02, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: t-and-f: Lifelike Portrayals Philip Weishaar wrote: <2) Without Limits was listed as one of the best sports movies nobody saw. In fact many in the filming Crudup did an excellent job portraying Pre, IMO. Also doing a superb job, in a movie seen by even fewer than "Without Limits", was Jared Leto, who played the lead in "Prefontaine". Leto even got Pre's speech pattern down, as well as looking eerily like him when in full make-up. I was on the infield of the stadium in Tacoma where some of the track scenes were being filmed, talking to Mac Wilkins (who had a cameo in the movie as a discus official announcing, "Next up, Wilkins"). Leto came walking across the infield towards us, wearing the Oregon singlet and shorts. I got chills. Mac murmured, "Unbelievable". The first time Steve's mom saw Leto in his sideburns, mustache, and long hair, she broke into tears. It was an amazing resemblance. Leto also turned out to be quite an athlete. The director (who did "Hoop Dreams") kept asking Leto to start at the 300 and accelerate to the finish, for take after take. I estimated Leto averaged 66 pace for each 300 acceleration (starting at about 72 pace and ending at 60 pace), and I counted 8 takes before they were through. Leto had to soak his feet in ice-water afterwards, they were so beat up. Never complained, never asked to take a break. Remarkable resemblance, in more ways than one. Tom Jordan author of "PRE"
Re: t-and-f: Short/Long course cross country
Personally, I love the 4k. But I do understand your wish to see everybody duke it out in one race. Honestly, in the u.S. anyway, I think most of the athletes do the 12k if they want to be in the more competitive race - thus I don't see the dilution of competition you're concerned about. As to the 4k being too easy, as you imply with your comment about doing that as a 12-year-old, puh-leeze... Even at the U.S. meet last year, in ankle-deep sucking mud, the leaders went through the 1k in 2:40ish, and some of them died pretty hard :-) World's is even another level (I would guess). Any race is hard - if it was easy, you'd run faster! I'm looking forward to seeing the first sub-four for 4k xc race :-) Cheers, Buck Jones Sideshow Bob ranted, <>
Re: t-and-f: Entertainment
Tom expressed some good ideas regarding selling T&F as entertainment. But I would emphasize that the entertainment must stay focussed around the sport. Thus the ideas about instant replay and educated announcing are great. But we need only look at the dismal showing of the recent XFL joke to see that bells and whistles will not sell a sport. It's NOT the glitz and hype that sells the NFL or NBA. Fundamentally it is still the recognition and appreciation of amazing performances by the athletes WITHIN the sport. The Chicago Bulls didn't sell out their games because they had the best dance troupe. Cheers, Buck Jones -Original Message- From: T. Jordan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 4:37 PM Subject: t-and-f: Entertainment Mr. Oti wrote: <<...because it took 4 hours to show a game consisting of 1 hour pure playing time, and 3 hours for shots of bulky players milling around aimlessly, giving each other countless high-fives, and lots of tinsel involving boy-bands, teen pop stars, and renditions of various anthems.>> Yup, and the above is what the American public thirsts for. That if there is not enough action on the football field, the basketball court, or the athletics track, they can be entertained by the "spectacle" around them. For the American audience at a track meet, this means ideally allowing no more than five minutes between events (you want to wait for the grass to grow, go to a baseball game or cricket match), having an On Field Expediter to cue the announcer to significant goings-on in the field events, live music before (and perhaps during) the meet, offering a kids tent, autograph table, and other (hopefully) value-added attractions to the main event. My own number one wish from Santa is a video replay screen at every track venue. These are now standard in football, basketball, and baseball stadia. Track & field needs them, too. For track & field to be successful at attracting spectators in the United States, it must be non-stop and it must be understandable (announce both metric and Imperial, and always announce world-leading or significant marks). If one is fortunate, there are great match-ups and competition, which is still what makes the sport thrilling to the track fan. But to attract the general sports fan in the U.S., it must above all ENTERTAIN. Tom Jordan
Re: t-and-f: El G - 8:09.89 - near WR for 2 miles (another imperial race)
Funny... When I think of a 3000 in 7:30, I think 'bring me a stretcher'... -Buck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, February 24, 2001 12:04 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: El G - 8:09.89 - near WR for 2 miles (another imperial race) In a message dated Sat, 24 Feb 2001 1:48:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dgs1170 writes: << Still isn't wonderful to see a race where you can just divide by two and go, "wow, back to back 3:42 1500s!">> Except nobody thinks that way. I was raising the beauty of the 2M because the split into miles puts the race into a pace that every english-speaker can relate to. Nobody relates to 1500s, not even metric speakers. Runners train at the logical distance of kilos, not 1.5 kilos. Euro listers, fill me in: if you think of pace in a 3000 of 7:30, do you think 2x3:45 or 3x2:30? gh
Re: t-and-f: Big Ten Men's Indoor
One should note that Pierce split a 1:50.5 800 for a DMR earlier this year. It was his debut at the distance, and supposedly went through 400m in 51ish. So the discussion I was having with a friend is: is his best chance for the future 400 or 800? Personally, if I were an 800m coach, I would die to have a guy with his talent - looking to the 800 in 2004. Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: William Bahnfleth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Jack Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Monday, February 26, 2001 8:52 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Big Ten Men's Indoor This is perhaps the first clear evidence that the new track is as fast as we'd hoped. It also helps to have the best collegiate 400 guy in the country running on it... Bill At 09:29 AM 2/26/2001 -0600, Jack Moran wrote: >Could the banked track at Penn State have anything to do with it? >-- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: t-and-f: Big Ten Men's Indoor > >Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001, 9:49 PM > > > > > > >In a message dated 2/25/01 9:15:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > ><< Three meet records for Andrew Pierce/OSU: 200 (20.84), 400 > (45.46--fastest > >in the NCAA this season), >> > > > >Fastest in the NCAA this season, last season, and every other season. > >Pierce's time of 45.46 breaks Brandon Couts' collegiate record of 45.60 and > >makes him the 7th fastest American ever. > > > >Walt Murphy > > _ William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E. Associate Professor Department of Architectural Engineering The Pennsylvania State University 224 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm _
Re: t-and-f: FAT weight
Not to mention that the fat or carbo's don't just go away when you utilize them for fuel.. Both fats and carbo's are oxidized primarily to water and CO2. In fact, about 10% of your H2O needs come from "metabolic" water. So as you oxidize fuels, you are not loosing the mass until you piss, sweat, spit, or breathe it away (both H2O vapor and CO2 have mass). An interesting sidenote: some animals, such as desert mice, never need to drink water. They get all of there needs from oxidizing dry foods to H2O. Their kideys are much more efficient than humans', actually concentrating urine to the point where they excrete crystals - ouch! -Original Message- From: Mcewen, Brian T <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001 11:32 AM Subject: t-and-f: FAT weight Dan Asked: Any idea how much weight loss is due to burning calories and producing heat?> >> The formula is 3600 KCal per POUND of Fat ... OR a pound of fat provides that much energy. A "high" rate of energy consumption would be around 20 KCal/minute for a larger man ... Average training effort would be about 15 KCal/minute. In a 10-miler (60 minutes?) in 90 degree heat, let's say you were easily at the 20 KCal/min rate. That would make: 20 KCal/minute x 60 minutes = 1200 KCal . . . 1200 KCal/ (3600 KCal/Lbs) = .333 Lbs Not very much of the 10 Lb. loss! And these assumptions are being pretty liberal with the rate of Caloric expenditure! (1200 KCal/hour is pretty HIGH!) It also assumes that ALL of the Calories you burn are provided by FAT .. which is false, Carbs provide much of it too (they have some mass though, also). The tremendous weight loss benefits of running occurs mostly through the round-the-clock semi-permanent rise in your metabolism that probably consumes an additional ~1000-1500 KCal during the rest of the day (compared to a sedentary individual). If you are running close to 10 miles a day on average ... you clearly can eat 2000-2500 more Kcal than the 1500-2000 KCal recommended for sedentary individuals to maintain weight. Even if my assumptions are WAY OFF ... It would be hard to see how you could lose more than a pound of actual FAT and Carbs during the run itself. The rest of the day is another story ... Pro cyclists who want to turn their upper-body into a skeleton, and their spindly arms into pipestems, routinely go on 7-hour rides drinking only a sports drink and then eating a protein-shake after the ride (to keep the body from cannibalizing the muscles). The ride should burn somewhere around 5000 KCal ... When done, they go to sleep for as long as they can, and let their body feast on only the fat they have stored on their 2-3% body-fat carcass. It said to be very unpleasant, and very effective. That is why they try to sleep through it. -Original Message- From: Dan Kaplan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 11:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: water vs coke --- Shawn Devereaux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wasn't a distance runner a few years back almost suspended for too high > of levels of caffiene? That same RRN article I mentioned also stated that the amount of caffeine necessary to place you above the legal limit is actually detrimental to performance, while that of about 60% the limit is most effective. On the topic of water weight loss, I once weighed myself before and after a 10 miler in ~90 degree weather and I dropped from about 155 to 145. Any idea how much weight loss is due to burning calories and producing heat? Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - AbleDesign, Web Design that Can! http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
t-and-f: Here's an idea...
I always wanted to start up a pursuit race in track. Have two runners start on opposite sides of the track and go until one catches the other. I figure the 10k guys would be best at this. Or how about start 8 guys, one every fifty meters. If you get passed, you're out. Last one standing wins. Now that sounds like some good suffering! Or team pursuit. Start a team of ten on each side - get passed and you're out. Last team with a competitor is the winner. Strategy would be key here, as a team could send out fliers to try and pick off the opposing members that went out conservatively. This might work better on a 200m track. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I'll put up a few million $$ for "Buck's Extreme Track Meet". Yeah, and I'll get George 'The Body' Malley to announce... Yeah... Cheers! Buck Jones
t-and-f: significant Foulmouth
Hrmph, Jon, you know statistics better than that - don't cripple your own arguments. ANOVA shows no significant difference between the top 10 performances '82 to '07, nor the top 5. If you don't like that, say the distribution may not be normal, a Kolmogrov-Smirnov two-sample test also fails to show a difference. I think Oleg makes a significant contribution - there were some stud American racers then. There still are, just not as many, and there are a lot more North African's racing. Stuff changes - with the amount of travel and intermixing occuring over time, my guess is we'll see the hybrids (ie Amahricans) kicking ass in a hundred years. All we need is a blend of the best genes that produced Coe, Ovett, Viren, Rono, Nyambui, Prefontaine, Deke, Seko, Saladbar, Marsh, Panetta, Zatopek, Walker, Scott, Coghlin, Cram, Gebr, Gooch, Morcelli, Aouita, KK, Benoit-S, Kristiansen, Szabo, Jacobs, Hamilton, Wang, the top ten Japanese women, etc., etc., etc. Heck we'll even throw in a little Master Po for seasoning. Long live the melting pot! Well, OK, maybe that will take a thousand years. Sorry, that's as jingoistic as I get. :-) Cheers, Buck -Original Message- From: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Oleg Shpyrko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Track and Field List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 11:49 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments The results are interesting... 9 athletes broke 32:50 in the '97 race, all from North or East Africa. 5 broke 32:50 in the 82 race, 4 non-Africans. I believe that shows a statistically signficant advantage by East and North Africans. The disparity is probably far more evident in other years, since you picked one year with great running conditions (82). On 4/25/01 8:22 AM, "Oleg Shpyrko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Some statistics from Falmouth Road Race. > Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, > you just have to replace americans from 1970ies/80ies with kenyans and > moroccans in 1990ies and you will have pretty much the same picture. > I am sure Tom can provide similar lists for Boston Marathon. > > What I am interested in, is how come a little "tribe" called "GBTC" could > produce so many top marathoners in the late 70ies, early 80ies? > Something for anthropologists to look into... > > MEN 1997 Falmouth > > 1. Khalid Khannouchi, Morocco 31:58 > 2. Thomas Osano, Kenya 32:07 > 3. Peter Githuka, Kenya 32:22 > 4. Lazarus Nyakeraka, Kenya 32:28 > 5. James Bungei, Kenya 32:31 > 6. Simon Chemoiywo, Kenya 32:36 > 7. Hezron Otwori, Kenya 32:36 > 8. Joseph Kariuki, Kenya 32:39 > 9. Brahim Lahlafi, Morocco 32:40 > 10. John Kariuki, Kenya 33:05 > > MEN 1982 Falmouth > 1. Alberto Salazar Oregon 31:53 CR > 2. Craig Virgin Illinois 32:12 > 3. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:16 > 4. Mike Musyoki Kenya 32:17 > 5. Marc Curp Missouri 32:46 > 6. Dan Schlesinger No. Carolina 32:53 > 7. Sosthenes Bitok Kenya 33:06 > 8. George Malley Newton, MA 33:10 > 9. Bob Hodge GBTC 33:12 > 10. Gary Fanelli Penn. 33:13 > > MEN Falmouth 1979 > 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 > 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 > 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 > 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 > 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 > 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 > 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 > 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 > 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 > 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21 > > MEN Falmouth 1980 > 1. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:20 > 2. Herb Lindsey Boulder, CO 32:32 > 3. Ric Rojas Boulder, CO 32:34 > 4. Bob Hodge GBTC 32:38 > 5. Greg Meyer GBTC 32:49 > 6. Terry Baker Wash. DC 32:58 > 7. Randy Thomas GBTC 33:03 > 8. Kyle Heffner Boulder, CO 33:07 > 9. Benji Durden Georgia 33:09 > 10. Stan Vernon Oklahoma 33:19 > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:40 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments > > > Tom: > > I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a > little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect > that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that > mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world > with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few > runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary > how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. > > So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. > > My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not > from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly > for cultural reason: > > They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long > shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and > serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the > sprints, for ins
t-and-f: Penn relays notes
Hi All, What a great weekend! As everybody who has ever gone will tell you, Penn Relays is one of the greatest events in the world. To share my impressions: Adrian Blincoe is a stud - he won the DMR for 'Nova with an 'I aint gonna' lose!' attitude. Nothing from Rugema, but it was clear with about 800 to go that Blincoe knew he had him. What a gutsy finish. Also in the DMR, what I saw was Andrew Pierce - 400m guy - show once again that his distance is at 800m. Please, please move up! He walked down half the field in the first lap and ran 1:46.8! AAMOF, he was the one that stepped on the Stanford guy that was showboating. Way to go Pierce :-) (Allegedly showboating - I didn't actually see that aspect). No doubt though that Pierce took a major stumble with 200 to go but still put OSU in contention. Loudest cheer of the meet had to be for Chryste Gaines running down Tayna Lawerance of Jamaica at the line in the 4x1. Inger Miller has some work to do to if she wants to even the score with Beverly McDonald who left Miller on the previous corner. Note: I'm assuming those were the runners on those legs based on the results - they were somewhat far away for me to be certain. No question however that the Jamaican third leg had the US leg for lunch after a poor 2-3 exchange for the Americans. Nearly as loud a cheer was for Jamaica waxing the US team as payback in the 4x2. Kudos to the Jamaican team for the win, and kudos to the pro-Jamaican fans cheering every winning team after the races, Jamaican or otherwise - classy. Ritzenheim ran a smart, gutsy race. I recall putting an elbow out to keep some guy from cutting me off in the melee of the start and looking over to realize it was he. (A gentle elbow, mind you - just traffic control.) He went through the start of the race near the back, where I stayed BTW :-), and then moved up smoothly. That is a sign of confidence in most races - impressive for a HS'er in a race like Penn. Worst news of the event was he missed the USATF standard by 0.19 - ouch! Still, given the breezy conditions, I would bet a whole dollar that he runs faster if he wants to do the event again this year. I find it interesting that I have, in my somewhat obscure career, raced Lindgren, Bill McChesny, and now Ritzenheim. Rather cool... An AWESOME event was the 75+ 100m. It was like watching a bunch of gnarly old oaks MOTIVATING down the track! They ran 15 seconds! One of the greatest feelings in the world is to sprint as fast as you can. I would bet that 95% of people never do it once they turn 30. So go down to the track or the sidewalk and do so tonight. L8r, Buck _______ Carleton 'Buck' Jones, Ph.D. Division of Pharmacology/College of Pharmacy The Ohio State University 500 W. 12th Avenue Columbus, OH 43210 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 614-688-3527 614-292-9083 (FAX)
t-and-f: Mile at 4000+ ft.
How-dee, I'm interested in finding a mile race on the track, early in June - specifically the weekend of the 2nd or the 9th, perhaps the 16th - that is above 4000 feet - obviously to try to get the USATF qualifier. With the 3% altitude allowance one only needs 4:06.47, which seems much more do-able. Save the 'You're a lame-o!' posts, I couldn't care less :-) I didn't make up the system, it is just applied to me by those who did, so... I'm thinking Denver or Boulder, but anywhere with an airport and an official meet is cool. Let me know if you're interested in such a race, and I'll pass on whatever Iget. Any Buffalo's out there? Thanks! Buck Jones -in really low-altitude Ohio.
t-and-f: Let's do regionals...
Hi All, Here's an idea that's a lot better than the one I floated about track pursuit races :-) To qualify for the U.S. National Meet, let's switch to a system of open, regional qualifying meets, similar but not quite the same as what the NCAA is doing. I envision an 'A' standard right at the Olympic standard that gets you in automatically, but the rest of the qualifiers from regional meets (they don't have to all be on the same weekend, however). I would make six meets qualifiers, taking the top two or three, depending on the event - bumping down to lower places for people already qualified. That would be 12 or 18, with the rest coming from qualifiers. A big advantage would be a middle level of competition for post-collegiate athletes that is seriously lacking in this country. E.g. there are a LOT of 3:45 1500m runners that really don't have any reason to train right now. A bunch of them might be able to improve over the years if they just stick with it. Here be-ith a reason. Another advantage would be to stimulate competition in a number of regional meets. E.g. if Mt. Sac wants to be a regional meet, that would certainly raise my interest. Unfortunately, I expect locations for these meets might be a problem. I start thinking of where I'd like to see meets, and I think of Seattle, Eugene, and Stanford (or Sacremento) as the first three - OK, I'm a distance runner :-) That's a bit West biased. Other places that seem natural - Boston, St. Louis, Knoxville, Boise, Austin, Baton Rouge, Atlanta (gotta' have something in the South for the sprinters), Indianapolis, Durham.. and otheres. Unfortunately, that's too many meets, and I still didn't cover the country very evenly. Still, I think it's an idea with legs. We should run with it. We should overcome the hurdles... AAGGGH! I've got Garry Hill disease! Anyway... Another difficulty may be finding venues capable of hosting a complete meet with every event. Oh wait! Colleges and high schools do that every week, how silly... Another problem might be the disparity between the number of sprinters getting 'A' standards versus the distance runners or other 'weaker' events. This could mess with the number of automatic qualifiers - but we could tweak the standards to deal with this. Unfortunately, any tweaking leads to its own problems - just ask the IRS, who really would like to just take 25% from everybody. I'll quit shooting straw dogs and let the rest of you put up objections. The bottom line is, I hate chasing standards and I love competing, so for me this would be a dream come true. Even if I didn't qualify, I could run six quality meets with guarenteed competition every year. Seems like a no-brainer, but people have accused me of that before... Cheers, Buck Jones
t-and-f: Promotion of nationals on the backs of the stars...
I just have a hard time believing that running in the national meet is such a wicked burden. If he doesn't want to run that one meet, fine, but don't try to sell the idea that he is being exploited by USATF. That's a bit much given that USATF is an organization whose absence would remove the basis for his fame and success in the first place. To suggest that USATF is '...[promoting] the national championships on the backs of stars...' is disengenuous. There would be no sport without a governing body (USATF or whatever) and no money or fame without the sport. You may argue that USATF has their own agenda, but I believe exploitation of Michael Johnson is a bit low on their radar. Hopefully they are a bit more farsighted than promotting an agenda that would be moot in three months anyway. I have no problem with him running the WC 400 with his wildcard, but you don't tell the Ja'Warren Hooker's and Andrew Pierce's "No, you're being taken off the relay, despite the fact that this guy was not willing to put it on the line against you at National's. But don't worry, we're doing it for the good of the sport... He's famous!" -Buck Jones -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 10:49 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: BOOO USATF = BAD DECISION!! Dennis does not matter in this scenario because he does not have a wild card exemption. Gail is different. Since she has her wild card I think she should be eligible for the relay pool. A good point was made earlier, if we can include an intermediate hurdler, why not MJ? He qualified for the WC's, and he has proven fitness. Remember, by IAAF standards he has made the team. USATF is trying to promote the national championships on the backs of stars. That to me is a flaw, and could prove to be a mistake. Whereas the USA team would have a MJ on it, now we will have no MJ. What good did the rule do? DGS Faith is a road seldom traveled Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2
Re: t-and-f: Promotion of nationals on the backs of the stars...
Hi Darrell, You wrote: << The marketing department has decided that they need the stars there to help promote the event.>> You are probably right about this. However, my objection was the characterization of this as exploitation. Granted, this was not a word you used, so perhaps I am overstating your case. <> Yes, but if USATF started charging all track athletes their fair share of the costs of governing the sport, then there would be none able to afford it. If one wants to run unencumbered by the rules imposed by USATF, then they needed to start doing so BEFORE they became a star - not after first taking advantge of the infrastructure to get to star status. Don't mistake my intent here, I certainly think MJ does (and even more the HSI group does) a great deal to promote the sport - both by excellence in performance and through extra-athletic activities. But I certainly don't think USATF is using them unfairly, and I would still be critical of any athlete complaining that the goose that laid their golden egg is asking for free food. <> Yes, but don't you think this helps my position more than hinders it? Clearly relay selection is a complex issue that does not lend itself to simple, objective rules. Nevertheless, I would oppose any move towards more subjective criterea (i.e. political and corruptible) such as the selection of MJ simply because of his past credentials and a lack of interest in participating in the US National's. That just semms a rather un-American way of choosing the American realy team. Cheers, Buck DGS Faith is a road seldom traveled Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2
Re: t-and-f: Bengt Saltin (and others) on muscle fiber type
This is interesting given that my understanding of studies conducted in the U.S. on a group of marathoners including Shorter et al. The single, best, correlate with performance was the number of years of marathon training - not mucle fiber composition, not VO2, not mileage, not efficiency, etc. But my memory is fuzzy though - i.e. not good, not reliable, not... :-) Cheers, Buck <>
t-and-f: Loosening Standards (was: something a lot longer)
I have a training partner who didn't submit an entry with his 3:42.53. He has some mixed feelings about Hall et al. being in the meet. Bottom line - he's gotten over it as it really does nothing to make his life worse, but he feels it would have been nice to know about this beforehand, y'know? Back when the airplane ticket and the entry didn't cost so much. It would be nice if USATF publisized what it's policy is going to be a little more clearly. Heck maybe they do, and I'm just an ignoramus. Cheers, Buck
t-and-f: pre-NCAA XC solution
Why the heck don't they just run flights? Run your top three in race A, your next four in race B - score it on points or time... whatever. Still too many runners? Three flights... etc. Cheers, Buck
