Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Going back a few posts... Representatives of Nike, with whom Jones has a multimillion-dollar contract, have tried to persuade her to sever the relationship with Francis, sources said. No disrespect intended to Phil, but I expect a somewhat more concrete reference than that. More importantly, though, my original statement was that I doubted this whole situation would have a negative impact on meet sponsors. (I added meet to the statement this time, but the context previously was about how it would likely add fan interest to meets.) As such, the Nike reference is not the sponsorship angle I was getting at. That's sponsorship of an individual athlete -- a very touchy subject with drugs -- not of an overall meet. With the latter, a sponsor can easily wiggle out from under and drug repercussions, as they can simply say they are supporting the meet as a whole or the clean athletes, not the questionable ones. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Then why do news reports say that Nike has been trying to encourage Jones to disassociate herself from Francis? Dunno, I haven't seen those reports. Dan http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Phil Hersh is a very reputable reporter, and wouldn't quote 'sources' unless he had something a lot stronger than a rumor. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Make it one season and I would agree. You can't have people missing say September (after the big meets), October, November, December, January, February and then returning. That is unless you tie their legs together when banned and prevent them from training! But if someone is caught in May in the USA, missed the whole of the season and someone caught in September missed the whole of next. Then, of course, you'd hit those who were caught in mid-season. They would then go to law. But there must be some formula whereby an athlete misses a certain number of weeks of the season (whichever it might be) for drug offences. And I also agree, second time and you are out. But won't that then lead to more second time court cases? First time I had sex five times and drank eight bottles of beer (it might have been the other way round but which ever it was it was an impressive evening's entertainment) the second time someone spiked my beer and I had sex 25 times! You can see my argument. Randall Northam On Saturday, Feb 1, 2003, at 00:34 Europe/London, ghill wrote: Cut the first penalty to 6 months and I predict that just about everybody will simply accept the punishment. Case closed, no ongoing court battles, no friggin' arbitration. And very few have ever been dumb enough to get caught twice. gh
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Who sponsored Sotomayor? Here's an actual criminal that should have gone to jail. Let's get him back on the playing field though. Regards, Martin It's the hypocrisy of the IAAF that's so galling. This is an organization that makes a pretense of policing drugs. They're not hard to find. They seem to be pretty easy to ignore. Javier Sotomayor of Cuba, the world-record holder in the high jump, was nailed for cocaine at the Pan American Games in Winnipeg in 1999. He was banned for two years, but the IAAF made certain the sentence was cut in half so he could be back on the European circuit and participate in the 2000 Sydney Olympics. They were special circumstances, the IAAF said. Sotomayor had had a long and meritorious career and got a reprieve. Sotomayor showed just how special he was when he tested positive for the steroid nandrolone in 2001. http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20030131/SANAL/sports/sports/sportsOtherHeadline_temp/1/1/8/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:46:42 -0800 (PST), you wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would MM bother to show up, if the there is no $$ guarantee and prize money is the only carrot? Don't you think public interest will actually be *greater* after this controversy? If anything, the appearance fees should be higher. I doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Then why do news reports say that Nike has been trying to encourage Jones to disassociate herself from Francis? RT
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Martin and Garry, I've read all the postings on this issue and am really distressed. I have a great deal of respect for Garry (as a TFN subscriber since 1964 - with virtually all of the issues in my closet), and I've always found Martin's posts on this list to be thoughtful. But all I can think, where both your posts on this issue are concerned, is that you just don't get it! Our sport is dying! Drugs are a major reason, if not THE major reason, for this decline. I competed for most of my life and coached XC and track at the high school level for 36 years. I HATE what drugs have done to our sport. Yet you guys defend a man who has made clear, even very recently, his belief that those who are clean are losers. I understand Martin's anger at the hypocrisy on this issue in our sport, but can you really be arguing that two - or dozens - of wrongs make a right? I've always felt that our sport, especially track, was the purest of all sports. No fancy equipment, no bizarre rules - with officals to interpet them - just human beings doing what they have done ever since they stood on two feet - trying to see who can get from here to there the fastest. Drugs are destroying that purity. Now, every time there is a record one has to wonder if the person was on drugs. Yet you think it's okay that the biggest name in our sport, Marion, and the fastest man ever, Tim, now are being coached by a man who believes that only losers are clean. Francis may legally be entitled to coach them; they may legally be entitled to go to him for coaching, but HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THEIR DOING SO? I find your viewpoints distressing and incomprehensible. Geoff Pietsch Gainesville FL From: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:03:21 -0500 This bunch doesn't care about the law though gh. Why would they when bad, tasteless jokes would suffice instead? We are only talking about people's lives and livelihood here. Here is a little more on the meet situation from Phil Hersh. http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm ghill wrote: I'm no lawyer, but given the right to work laws prevalent in the civilized European nations (the kind of statutes that caused the downfall of the IAAF's original 4-year bans, if I'm not mistaken), depriving the world's top sprinters of the chance to compete for the huge prize money involved when they're complete innocent not only of any civil/criminal charges, but also private-club strictures, that's a case I'd like to pursue on behalf of MM. gh From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:10:54 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear Y ask: This should get the attention of MJ-TM: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Quick query to Scott Davis and Tom Jordan: If Euro meet directors ban the Dynamic Duo if they don't drop CF, would you follow suit? Ken Stone _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Geoff, Being the opinionated guy I obviously am, I also hate a lot of things in life, but what I don't do is allow myself to HATE them, as you do. The end result of that course of action is what you're feeling--a disconnect from the sport. I'm never going to let anybody/anything do that to me. Does that mean I'll stop fighting for injustice? No. But I'll pick my battles carefully, being effective where I can, and trying to stay out of the way where I can't. And I feel that this MM hoo-ha is an issue where less hysteria and more going with the flow is called for. If you think that's soft on drugs, so be it. And if I really did want to HATE something, there are plenty of causes--on both ends of the political spectrum--where I'd put my energies before worrying about something silly like track field. It may be my fondest love, but in the big scope of things, it's just a bunch of skimply-clad people running around in circles. I'll get around to HATING what drugs have done to ALL sports after I've cleansed the world of welfare fraud, corporate fraud, the dumbing down of our educational system and the rape pillage of our air and water. (short list) gh From: Geoff Pietsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:23:32 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear Martin and Garry, I've read all the postings on this issue and am really distressed. I have a great deal of respect for Garry (as a TFN subscriber since 1964 - with virtually all of the issues in my closet), and I've always found Martin's posts on this list to be thoughtful. But all I can think, where both your posts on this issue are concerned, is that you just don't get it! Our sport is dying! Drugs are a major reason, if not THE major reason, for this decline. I competed for most of my life and coached XC and track at the high school level for 36 years. I HATE what drugs have done to our sport. Yet you guys defend a man who has made clear, even very recently, his belief that those who are clean are losers. I understand Martin's anger at the hypocrisy on this issue in our sport, but can you really be arguing that two - or dozens - of wrongs make a right? I've always felt that our sport, especially track, was the purest of all sports. No fancy equipment, no bizarre rules - with officals to interpet them - just human beings doing what they have done ever since they stood on two feet - trying to see who can get from here to there the fastest. Drugs are destroying that purity. Now, every time there is a record one has to wonder if the person was on drugs. Yet you think it's okay that the biggest name in our sport, Marion, and the fastest man ever, Tim, now are being coached by a man who believes that only losers are clean. Francis may legally be entitled to coach them; they may legally be entitled to go to him for coaching, but HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THEIR DOING SO? I find your viewpoints distressing and incomprehensible. Geoff Pietsch Gainesville FL From: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:03:21 -0500 This bunch doesn't care about the law though gh. Why would they when bad, tasteless jokes would suffice instead? We are only talking about people's lives and livelihood here. Here is a little more on the meet situation from Phil Hersh. http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm ghill wrote: I'm no lawyer, but given the right to work laws prevalent in the civilized European nations (the kind of statutes that caused the downfall of the IAAF's original 4-year bans, if I'm not mistaken), depriving the world's top sprinters of the chance to compete for the huge prize money involved when they're complete innocent not only of any civil/criminal charges, but also private-club strictures, that's a case I'd like to pursue on behalf of MM. gh From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:10:54 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear Y ask: This should get the attention of MJ-TM: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Quick query to Scott Davis and Tom Jordan: If Euro meet directors ban the Dynamic Duo if they don't drop CF, would you follow suit? Ken Stone _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
RE: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Problem is Garry-Two-Rs, is that you are not the editor of Welfare Corporate Fraud News and don't profess to be the Bible of our educationall system and the environment. ANYONE who thinks that drugs in our sport is not destroying it is either 1) an idiot, 2) dishonest or 3) complicit (or any combination of). malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of ghill Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 1:57 PM To: track list Subject: Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear It may be my fondest love, but in the big scope of things, it's just a bunch of skimply-clad people running around in circles. I'll get around to HATING what drugs have done to ALL sports after I've cleansed the world of welfare fraud, corporate fraud, the dumbing down of our educational system and the rape pillage of our air and water. (short list) gh
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
From: malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:35:54 -0500 To: 'ghill' [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'track list' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear ANYONE who thinks that drugs in our sport is not destroying it is either 1) an idiot, 2) dishonest or 3) complicit (or any combination of). OK, put me down under idiot then. It's the *handling* of the drug situation that's destroying it, not the drugs themselves. Track already has the most stringent testing system and the fiercest penalties. Meanwhile, the pro sports have incredibly high rates of abuse (and do almost nothing about it in terms of prevention or penalty) yet don't suffer any image problem. You don't think there's a correlation there? We have a problem of such a magnitude because we keep making it such a problem. We have seen the enemy and he is us. gh
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Track and Field has not hit the pages of the Denver newspapers since forever. Yesterday Tim and Marion made a big splash in the Rocky Mountain News.Those who think that bad news is better than no news should be happy. JL malmo wrote: Problem is Garry-Two-Rs, is that you are not the editor of Welfare Corporate Fraud News and don't profess to be the Bible of our educationall system and the environment. ANYONE who thinks that drugs in our sport is not destroying it is either 1) an idiot, 2) dishonest or 3) complicit (or any combination of). malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of ghill Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 1:57 PM To: track list Subject: Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear It may be my fondest love, but in the big scope of things, it's just a bunch of skimply-clad people running around in circles. I'll get around to HATING what drugs have done to ALL sports after I've cleansed the world of welfare fraud, corporate fraud, the dumbing down of our educational system and the rape pillage of our air and water. (short list) gh
RE: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Read you load and clear: because pro football is doing it we should too? Because rock stars are dying of heroin overdoses and they're still popular, the problem isn't the heroin it's how the fan magazines are handling it? Track and Field News needs to be more like MTV, Rolling Stone and People, right? malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of ghill Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 2:42 PM To: track list Subject: Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear From: malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:35:54 -0500 To: 'ghill' [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'track list' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear ANYONE who thinks that drugs in our sport is not destroying it is either 1) an idiot, 2) dishonest or 3) complicit (or any combination of). OK, put me down under idiot then. It's the *handling* of the drug situation that's destroying it, not the drugs themselves. Track already has the most stringent testing system and the fiercest penalties. Meanwhile, the pro sports have incredibly high rates of abuse (and do almost nothing about it in terms of prevention or penalty) yet don't suffer any image problem. You don't think there's a correlation there? We have a problem of such a magnitude because we keep making it such a problem. We have seen the enemy and he is us. gh
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
From: malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:59:43 -0500 To: 'ghill' [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'track list' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear Read you load and clear: because pro football is doing it we should too? Because rock stars are dying of heroin overdoses and they're still popular, the problem isn't the heroin it's how the fan magazines are handling it? OK George, you've earned your PhD in Spin Doctor with a Masters in hyperbole. That's not remotely what I was saying, and I think you know it. I'm saying that the pro leagues, while they are abysmally deficient in the testing department (and should be ashamed of themselves) at least have the right idea when it comes to punishment; punishments that fit the crime as the general public (as opposed to hysterical people on track lists) sees it. Track is handing out armed robbery sentences to shoplifters. As a result, the public perception is that we're the dirty guys when we're not. The solution? JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD (not to be confused with a TFN position statement, or even a position I'll defend a week from now): For a steroid positive, six months for first offense. Second offense, lifetime ban, with the added penalty of removal of your name from all IAAF/IOC records/results. Brutally punish the stupid for being truly stupid. There will be few of those. Aside from the punishment fitting the crime, there's the added benefit that a lesser first penalty will reduce the amount of time a case spends being flogged by the media. Think of it in death-penalty terms (a criminal process I'm all in favor of, for those of you who think of me as some died-in-the-wool do-gooder). Give somebody the death penalty and he fight and appeals and appeals and appeals and appeals.. takes forever to finish off. A 2-year sentence is close to that in track terms. So an athlete too often feels he has no choice but to fight it, fight it, fight it. Cut the first penalty to 6 months and I predict that just about everybody will simply accept the punishment. Case closed, no ongoing court battles, no friggin' arbitration. And very few have ever been dumb enough to get caught twice. gh
t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Y ask: This should get the attention of MJ-TM: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Quick query to Scott Davis and Tom Jordan: If Euro meet directors ban the Dynamic Duo if they don't drop CF, would you follow suit? Ken Stone
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
I'm no lawyer, but given the right to work laws prevalent in the civilized European nations (the kind of statutes that caused the downfall of the IAAF's original 4-year bans, if I'm not mistaken), depriving the world's top sprinters of the chance to compete for the huge prize money involved when they're complete innocent not only of any civil/criminal charges, but also private-club strictures, that's a case I'd like to pursue on behalf of MM. gh From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:10:54 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear Y ask: This should get the attention of MJ-TM: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Quick query to Scott Davis and Tom Jordan: If Euro meet directors ban the Dynamic Duo if they don't drop CF, would you follow suit? Ken Stone
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
This bunch doesn't care about the law though gh. Why would they when bad, tasteless jokes would suffice instead? We are only talking about people's lives and livelihood here. Here is a little more on the meet situation from Phil Hersh. http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm ghill wrote: I'm no lawyer, but given the right to work laws prevalent in the civilized European nations (the kind of statutes that caused the downfall of the IAAF's original 4-year bans, if I'm not mistaken), depriving the world's top sprinters of the chance to compete for the huge prize money involved when they're complete innocent not only of any civil/criminal charges, but also private-club strictures, that's a case I'd like to pursue on behalf of MM. gh From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:10:54 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear Y ask: This should get the attention of MJ-TM: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Quick query to Scott Davis and Tom Jordan: If Euro meet directors ban the Dynamic Duo if they don't drop CF, would you follow suit? Ken Stone
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
An athlete may have a right to work (compete in the meet), assuming they meet minimum standards which are probably ill-defined (but assuming MM would pass such a test regardless of the standard), BUT... they don't necessarily have a right to an appearance fee. Would MM bother to show up, if the there is no $$ guarantee and prize money is the only carrot? I, however, would question the whole right-to-work anyway. Meet directors are not obligated to extend invitations to ANYBODY are they? Does the IAAF have any GP standards, where meet directors have to invite anybody who meets such a standard? There are only 8 or 9 lanes on a track, so you'd think there HAS to be some people who aren't gonna get invited, or get relegated to a B race. But meets aren't even obligated to HAVE a B race. This subject by the way, is something that needs to be resolved if the sport ever hopes to move to real professional status. Consider how golf and tennis do it. The PGA tour makes you earn your 'card' through a qualifying system. Once you get your card, you have automatic entry to any PGA tournament, if I understand it correctly. TF, in comparison, is still currently a loose series of individual meets, with GP recognition and overall GP points overlaid on top, but not really changing the basic fundamentals of invitations and fees, which are still individually negotiated meet-by-meet, athlete-by-athlete. Too much, like appearance fees, depends on negotiations with individual promoters rather than an overall system worked out by the IAAF itself (or an athlete's union, like pro tennis). RT
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would MM bother to show up, if the there is no $$ guarantee and prize money is the only carrot? Don't you think public interest will actually be *greater* after this controversy? If anything, the appearance fees should be higher. I doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:46:42 -0800 (PST), you wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would MM bother to show up, if the there is no $$ guarantee and prize money is the only carrot? Don't you think public interest will actually be *greater* after this controversy? If anything, the appearance fees should be higher. I doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Then why do news reports say that Nike has been trying to encourage Jones to disassociate herself from Francis? RT
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't you think public interest will actually be *greater* after this controversy? If anything, the appearance fees should be higher. I doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Then why do news reports say that Nike has been trying to encourage Jones to disassociate herself from Francis? Dunno, I haven't seen those reports. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Then why do news reports say that Nike has been trying to encourage Jones to disassociate herself from Francis? Dunno, I haven't seen those reports. Dan http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm Phil Hersh is a very reputable reporter, and wouldn't quote 'sources' unless he had something a lot stronger than a rumor.
