Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 9:41 AM, SomeoneElse The stats are crocked due to seav (who appears to be running a bot without checking with local mappers first) changing them. The last wiki edits were by seav editing the page to match the version that they favoured. The tagging@ discussion that they refer to in those wiki edits tended to favour _ but as ever wasn't particularly conclusive. I don't run any bots. I used JXAPI and JOSM. If you guys want to re-open the discussion again about this then go ahead. Based on the discussion last year, most of the participants favored using underscores. I changed the wiki earlier this year and nobody complained. I did a set of batch edits about 2 months ago and nobody complained as well. I did these recent batch of edits and only now did somebody take issue with this. Perhaps seav's time would be better spent submitting a patch to Potlatch2 or, dare I suggest it, actually doing some mapping? You might want to check out my edits page. I do a lot of mapping and the drive_through edits are just a tiny fraction of my contributions. OK, I will go ahead and create a patch for Potlatch 2 if that will make everyone happy. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On 29/06/2011 13:22, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: I don't run any bots. I used JXAPI and JOSM. That's irrelevant; you're still changing data across the planet. Data consumers still need to know if the data is changing beneath their feet, though. Your last post on the tagging list: http://www.mail-archive.com/tagging@openstreetmap.org/msg05221.html says So service=drive_through it is?. It does not say OK, chaps, I'm now going to change all the data on the planet to match the 'drive_through' spelling Even if it had have said that, people would still need to be monitoring the tagging list, or reading the revision history of service=drive through (note the wiki-induced misspelling) and reading the link from there to www.mail-archive.com. In terms of clarity that's up there with the Douglas Adams' on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of The Leopard'. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On 6/29/2011 8:46 AM, SomeoneElse wrote: That's irrelevant; you're still changing data across the planet. I don't see these edits as out of line or unusual. It's not so different from the dozens of other projects to create more unified tags so that data consumers have a chance of using the right tag. Data consumers still need to know if the data is changing beneath their feet, though. There's no standard way to notify data consumers, other than perhaps OWL or some sort of history tracking. The alternative to this edit would be that data consumers miss a bunch of tags due to the ambiguity. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On 29/06/2011 14:19, Mike N wrote: I don't see these edits as out of line or unusual. It's not so different from the dozens of other projects to create more unified tags so that data consumers have a chance of using the right tag. I suspect the tags you're talking about in other projects don't have quite the same significance as they do in OSM. Can you give us an example of what you mean? I see bulk-changing one tag to another in this way as being equivalent to changing a method name in an open source library without changing its functionality, just to make the name nicer. Anyone using that method in their code will get a compilation error all of a sudden, but nothing has actually improved in the library. You break some people's use of the data without having a net benefit. To put it another way, if the edits could be done using a simple algorithm, they haven't added anything to the OSM data itself, since that algorithm could be applied as post-processing. It's just rearranging deck chairs. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
It might be useful to know how many uses of the two variants were present before Eugene (seav) began changing them. My impression is that both were being used commonly, and thus data consumers had to accept both spellings, and so this change isn't such a big deal. Of course it would have been appropriate for a message to be sent to the list beforehand. -Josh On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Jonathan Bennett openstreet...@jonno.cix.co.uk wrote: On 29/06/2011 14:19, Mike N wrote: I don't see these edits as out of line or unusual. It's not so different from the dozens of other projects to create more unified tags so that data consumers have a chance of using the right tag. I suspect the tags you're talking about in other projects don't have quite the same significance as they do in OSM. Can you give us an example of what you mean? I see bulk-changing one tag to another in this way as being equivalent to changing a method name in an open source library without changing its functionality, just to make the name nicer. Anyone using that method in their code will get a compilation error all of a sudden, but nothing has actually improved in the library. You break some people's use of the data without having a net benefit. To put it another way, if the edits could be done using a simple algorithm, they haven't added anything to the OSM data itself, since that algorithm could be applied as post-processing. It's just rearranging deck chairs. __**_ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/tagginghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On 6/29/2011 9:31 AM, Jonathan Bennett wrote: On 29/06/2011 14:19, Mike N wrote: I don't see these edits as out of line or unusual. It's not so different from the dozens of other projects to create more unified tags so that data consumers have a chance of using the right tag. I suspect the tags you're talking about in other projects don't have quite the same significance as they do in OSM. Can you give us an example of what you mean? xybot for example. I see bulk-changing one tag to another in this way as being equivalent to changing a method name in an open source library without changing its functionality, just to make the name nicer. Anyone using that method in their code will get a compilation error all of a sudden, but nothing has actually improved in the library. You break some people's use of the data without having a net benefit. Which data consumers actually used this tag, and did they use the Wiki form, the last tagging list discussion, Editor Presets, or just invent their own idea of how to consume it? To put it another way, if the edits could be done using a simple algorithm, they haven't added anything to the OSM data itself, since that algorithm could be applied as post-processing. It's just rearranging deck chairs. This is an argument that tags should never be unified, but somehow a colossal document that lists every possible alternate tag be created. Data consumers would also need to implement such a document in code. On the other hand, an established tag that is clearly widely used by data consumers must not be changed without the agreement of data consumers. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: I have no ability to say if drive-through or drive_through or drive-thru is the best one but I always thank people trying to keep tagging consistent in the database. For instance, we have currently 879 different 'highway' values in taginfo. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Potlatch2 tags drive-through. The wiki some users who changed this tag think it's drive_through. Not that it makes any odds to me which it is, but it might save time for others who go around changing one to the other. Which should it be? It should be drive-through. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive-through) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
You want silly retaggings? http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6380219 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On 29/06/2011 14:57, Anthony wrote: On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Dave F.dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Potlatch2 tags drive-through. The wiki some users who changed this tag think it's drive_through. Not that it makes any odds to me which it is, but it might save time for others who go around changing one to the other. Which should it be? It should be drive-through. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive-through) On consideration I think you're correct - it is one word, hyphenated. My main irritation about things like this is not if it's X or Y, but that we can't /decide /whether it's X or Y. It makes the database a jumbled mess that on at least one occasion has caused a potential user of the info to walked away after spending time, money effort trying to descramble it. Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: My main irritation about things like this is not if it's X or Y, but that we can't decide whether it's X or Y. It makes the database a jumbled mess that on at least one occasion has caused a potential user of the info to walked away after spending time, money effort trying to descramble it. Yep, you're preaching to the choir there. The congregation (the only ones with the power to enforce standards) is http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Data_Working_Group ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 20:51 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote: I would not be surprised if there are also some occurrences of drive-thru or drive_thru. American business people seem to prefer to write thru rather than through, so much so that some members of the public probably aren't aware of the proper spelling. Well, technically if were mapping whats on the ground, a lot of restaurant signs say Drive thru. The wiki has a redirect from drive_thru to drive_through, with 4 occurances of 'drive thru' on the page, but no explanation about why the tag uses the British English phrase instead of the words which are actually on the sign. Maybe this should be clarified on the wiki, not just which spelling is preferred, but why and where its appropriate to translate from whats signed. There was a discussion on talk@ a while back about this. A similar discussion was raised about Donut vs Doughnut. While the latter is the more traditional spelling, that doesnt mean that anyone should go around changing 'Dunkin Donuts' to 'Dunkin Doughnuts', if its tagged the first way.. the same way I believe you shouldnt be changing the 'Drive thru' signed areas to 'Drive through'. David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
2011/6/29 David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au: Well, technically if were mapping whats on the ground, a lot of restaurant signs say Drive thru. The wiki has a redirect from drive_thru to drive_through, with 4 occurances of 'drive thru' on the page, but no explanation about why the tag uses the British English phrase instead of the words which are actually on the sign. because mapping what's on the ground does not imply to copy every single letter from signs in every case. drive thru is not a name but is a generic description hence should be described by a formal tag. For tags we agreed on using BE. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On 6/29/2011 12:40 AM, David Murn wrote: On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 20:51 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote: I would not be surprised if there are also some occurrences of drive-thru or drive_thru. American business people seem to prefer to write thru rather than through, so much so that some members of the public probably aren't aware of the proper spelling. Well, technically if were mapping whats on the ground, a lot of restaurant signs say Drive thru. The wiki has a redirect from drive_thru to drive_through, with 4 occurances of 'drive thru' on the page, but no explanation about why the tag uses the British English phrase instead of the words which are actually on the sign. Maybe this should be clarified on the wiki, not just which spelling is preferred, but why and where its appropriate to translate from whats signed. There was a discussion on talk@ a while back about this. A similar discussion was raised about Donut vs Doughnut. While the latter is the more traditional spelling, that doesnt mean that anyone should go around changing 'Dunkin Donuts' to 'Dunkin Doughnuts', if its tagged the first way.. the same way I believe you shouldnt be changing the 'Drive thru' signed areas to 'Drive through'. There's a big difference between changing the name=* tag and changing other tags. If you were giving the drive thru roadway a name, what's on the sign would probably be appropriate (though we do expand many abbreviations). But tagging it as service=drive_through is like tagging footway=sidewalk where the sign says pavement. You're describing what the thing is, not what it's called. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
On 29/06/2011 05:40, David Murn wrote: While the latter is the more traditional spelling, that doesnt mean that anyone should go around changing 'Dunkin Donuts' to 'Dunkin Doughnuts', if its tagged the first way.. the same way I believe you shouldnt be changing the 'Drive thru' signed areas to 'Drive through'. I half disagree with this. It maybe signed as 'drive thru' but it's still a 'drive through'. Please don't succumb to incompetent spelling. Similarly, if the shop is called Dunkin' Donuts then that's fine for the name= tag, but the cuisine tag should always be doughnuts. Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=drive-through or drive_through?
All I know is that service=drive-through was rendered already in Mapnik while service=drive_through is not. Look here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.525952lon=-80.006203zoom=18layers=M I had originally tagged the Drive Thru's for Taco Bell and Arby's here as service=drive-through before seav changed them. The area now looks really bad when you zoom out because they are now rendered as normal highway=service ways. Here's the original ticket on the Trac that I did that got the service=drive-through rendered like parking aisles: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3193 And put my vote in as service=drive-through. -- And if you guys didn't know, seav posted a request to have the rendering changed today in Trac: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3873 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
