Re: [Tagging] traffic=fast
There's two things that distinguish HSLs/LGVs/NBSs: high maxspeed (typically 250-320, though some would include the new lines in Switzerland, which are only 200), and a lack of slow traffic (freight, stopping passenger services) because they have alternative routes. In some cases, you can get pretty high speeds without providing a second pair of lines, if traffic is sparse (upto 200kmh in the UK, upto 230kmh in Germany), so I think the presence/absence of a parallel slow route is something that can usefully tagged explicitly. Richard On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:21 AM, St Niklaas st.nikl...@live.nl wrote: Hi taggers, Colins question are there more countries with different speed rules on tracks ? Yes all the TGV like tracks in Europe through, France, Germany and Netherlands are specially build for TGVs but somewhere there still tracks combined, limited speed up to 100 miles / hr. Hendrik ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Advice clarification of the railway tracks=* tag required.
On 09/08/2012 00:03, Richard Mann wrote: I've copied the info to a new passenger_lines tag, since it would appear that some people would prefer to use the tracks tag for a different purpose. No, All users except you, for the reason it was created which is clearly defined in the wiki. For those of you who don't have experience of train operations, I can assure you that the number of tracks available for passenger operations (and in particular, whether services can be readily timetabled to operate with limited stops due to the absence of slow traffic on some lines) is pretty useful info. That wasn't the reason I contacted you. It's disappointing you attempted to high-jack an already established tag with something that even you seem unclear about. Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Advice clarification of the railway tracks=* tag required.
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Disappointing that you didn't rescind your track edits first Then do it. The current tagging of your example with tracks=4 is simply wrong. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] traffic=fast
As every track segment has a maximum speed, why not just apply the existing maxspeed=* tag to the tracks? It is not clear to me whether your intention with traffic=fast refers to some attribute of the track itself, or the use to which it is put. Is it some official designation (from Network Rail)? I recall also seeing things like service=main_line (from memory) to distinguish main line from local tracks. Colin On 09/08/2012 11:33, Richard Mann wrote: There's two things that distinguish HSLs/LGVs/NBSs: high maxspeed (typically 250-320, though some would include the new lines in Switzerland, which are only 200), and a lack of slow traffic (freight, stopping passenger services) because they have alternative routes. In some cases, you can get pretty high speeds without providing a second pair of lines, if traffic is sparse (upto 200kmh in the UK, upto 230kmh in Germany), so I think the presence/absence of a parallel slow route is something that can usefully tagged explicitly. Richard On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:21 AM, St Niklaas st.nikl...@live.nl mailto:st.nikl...@live.nl wrote: Hi taggers, Colins question are there more countries with different speed rules on tracks ? Yes all the TGV like tracks in Europe through, France, Germany and Netherlands are specially build for TGVs but somewhere there still tracks combined, limited speed up to 100 miles / hr. Hendrik ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Everybody is hiding?
Hi tagging list, the Extended Conditions proposal has been shot down by a majority, and therefore there is still no official way of tagging quite a lot of things. (As a side note, the Extended Conditions proposal is still the de facto standard.) Therefore, I expected that those people who had voted against the proposal came up with a well-designed alternative proposal – yet nothing happened. Shall I conclude that all those people who voted against the proposal did this just for the sake of voting against? Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?
Hi, On 08/09/2012 01:41 PM, Eckhart Wörner wrote: Therefore, I expected that those people who had voted against the proposal came up with a well-designed alternative proposal You have to work on your expectations then. Has it occurred to you that some people don't find extended conditions important enough at all? Personally, I think that most of the extended conditions that the proposal tried to address were not worth having a tagging scheme for; they were stuff that only a few perfectionists would want to map anyway. And while I am not against perfectionists mapping stuff they like, I am against elevating this to the state of an accepted proposal because that would convey too much mindshare to such a marginal issue. The proposal is driven by a geek-y desire to convert every last bit of information contained in a road sign into an OSM tag. But I don't think that this is what people will usually want to do, and I fear that giving this idea more mindshare will in the end lead to our editors being burdened by special restriction composer preset tabs where you can generate stuff like time and weather dependent speed limits for disabled persons with children. I don't think that the proposal is the de facto standard either. I think some of its parts will probably be used - e.g. I could see maxspeed:wet being of use. I think it is likely however that this will be interpreted like a normal, fixed tag, and I don't believe anyone will actually implement a restriction parser that understands any combination of restrictions on any tags. I have no problem whatsoever if the mapping of speed limits that only apply to HGV at night happens by way of a note tag. It's just not frequent enough to even discuss. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?
While I agree with Frederik almost completely, the absence of a tagging scheme for conditions will have some unwanted side effects. A current example in my opinion would be this great and completely intuitive n2/n3 tagging that was just invented. It was already documented in the german access article, giving the impression that this is an accepted tag. If we would have a tagging scheme for conditions this could have been prevented. Martin 2012/8/9 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, On 08/09/2012 01:41 PM, Eckhart Wörner wrote: Therefore, I expected that those people who had voted against the proposal came up with a well-designed alternative proposal You have to work on your expectations then. Has it occurred to you that some people don't find extended conditions important enough at all? Personally, I think that most of the extended conditions that the proposal tried to address were not worth having a tagging scheme for; they were stuff that only a few perfectionists would want to map anyway. And while I am not against perfectionists mapping stuff they like, I am against elevating this to the state of an accepted proposal because that would convey too much mindshare to such a marginal issue. The proposal is driven by a geek-y desire to convert every last bit of information contained in a road sign into an OSM tag. But I don't think that this is what people will usually want to do, and I fear that giving this idea more mindshare will in the end lead to our editors being burdened by special restriction composer preset tabs where you can generate stuff like time and weather dependent speed limits for disabled persons with children. I don't think that the proposal is the de facto standard either. I think some of its parts will probably be used - e.g. I could see maxspeed:wet being of use. I think it is likely however that this will be interpreted like a normal, fixed tag, and I don't believe anyone will actually implement a restriction parser that understands any combination of restrictions on any tags. I have no problem whatsoever if the mapping of speed limits that only apply to HGV at night happens by way of a note tag. It's just not frequent enough to even discuss. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?
Hi Frederik, Am Donnerstag, 9. August 2012, 14:36:40 schrieb Frederik Ramm: You have to work on your expectations then. Has it occurred to you that some people don't find extended conditions important enough at all? Personally, I think that most of the extended conditions that the proposal tried to address were not worth having a tagging scheme for; they were stuff that only a few perfectionists would want to map anyway. Yeah, e.g. those quixotic perfectionist geeks from Synyx. And while I am not against perfectionists mapping stuff they like, I am against elevating this to the state of an accepted proposal because that would convey too much mindshare to such a marginal issue. In constrast to *really* important features like diet meals, clocks or fire hydrants… The proposal is driven by a geek-y desire to convert every last bit of information contained in a road sign into an OSM tag. But I don't think Okay, I repeat it one more time for you: this is not about some stuff geeks want to add to the database, this is serious stuff that some companies actually want to use (and other companies like MapQuest and Tele Atlas sell this kind of information). If you don't believe me then just have a look at GDF, which is an industrial standard that specifies exactly the same geek-y stuff (IIRC you can find some older versions of the standard on the internet). that this is what people will usually want to do, and I fear that giving this idea more mindshare will in the end lead to our editors being burdened by special restriction composer preset tabs where you can generate stuff like time and weather dependent speed limits for disabled persons with children. Yeah, like the UI-cluttering turn restrictions plugin in JOSM… wait, what? Yes, it is a *plugin*. If you do not like it, just do not download it. I don't think that the proposal is the de facto standard either. I think some of its parts will probably be used - e.g. I could see maxspeed:wet being of use. I think it is likely however that this will be interpreted like a normal, fixed tag, […] I cannot find any wiki entry for - maxspeed:wet - maxspeed:hgv:forward - maxspeed:motorcycle - toll:hgv - toll:forward - access:hgv:forward (just to pick a few). If those are all fixed tags, then where are the wiki entries for them? On the other hand, the Extended Conditions proposal explains *all* of them, just in one page instead of thousand pages. […] and I don't believe anyone will actually implement a restriction parser that understands any combination of restrictions on any tags. It's not that difficult to implement, trust me. I have no problem whatsoever if the mapping of speed limits that only apply to HGV at night happens by way of a note tag. It's just not frequent enough to even discuss. For something that's not worth discussing, the discussion is quite lengthy. About that note tag proposal of yours: this is the most stupid proposal I have heard so far. I have a better one: why not stuff everything we ever want to tag into one big note tag, that would make all editors a *lot* simpler. (On the other hand, it would make using the data impossible, but as you already stated, the mapper is the only person that is important.) Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?
Hi tagging list, the Extended Conditions proposal has been shot down by a majority, and therefore there is still no official way of tagging quite a lot of things. (As a side note, the Extended Conditions proposal is still the de facto standard.) Therefore, I expected that those people who had voted against the proposal came up with a well-designed alternative proposal â yet nothing happened. Shall I conclude that all those people who voted against the proposal did this just for the sake of voting against? First of all I actually approved the proposal but later realized that having variable keys is less than ideal. I am currently working on an alternative proposal and I was planning to announce it within a few days (I have only limited internet access the next couple of days). But here it is. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Conditional_restrictions A short comment on the proposal: The actual conditions go into the tag value. The transport mode (vehicle catagory) and the direction stay in the key in accordance with current practice for access restrictions. Feel free to comment on it, preferably on the talk page. Ole / polderrunner ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Extended tagging schema - my thoughts
(Foolish me - meant to send that email to the tagging list. It's now posted there so suggest any more responses are to the tagging list.) Yep, many formats can be used. First thing is to see if the idea is liked by anyone, including Eckhart, who raised the issue on the tagging list today. Regards, Rob On 9 August 2012 17:14, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com wrote: * maxspeed=120; 80?wet; 60?wet+hgv Here '?' can be interpreted as 'if' and '+' as 'and'. It's maybe more readable if you write 120; wet ? 80 ; wet+hgv ? 60 Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?
Ole Nielsen / osm on-osm@... writes: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Conditional_restrictions A short comment on the proposal: The actual conditions go into the tag value. The transport mode (vehicle catagory) and the direction stay in the key in accordance with current practice for access restrictions. Ole / polderrunner Good work there, a very good blend of expanding the key with already used information *:hgv:conditional=* and at the same time keeping more complex information in the values *=no:(12:00-18:00) It is good that the expansion of the key is only with things that are quite defined already: transportation mode direction Maybe more could be added if they get commonly used. I am not sure if *:condition=* really needs to be added, but it has probably something to do with how the machines interprets keys. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] traffic=fast
There's usage=main and usage=branch, but that is pretty crude. You might use that to reproduce the old BR network map (before Railtrack/NR went and made all the lines the same width). The norm on four track railways is for two of the lines to be designated the fast lines (or main lines on Great Western) and two to be designated the slow lines (or relief lines on Great Western). The naming isn't as clear if the pairs of lines diverge (eg the lines that bypass Redhill on the way to Brighton), but the idea is basically the same. Richard On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: As every track segment has a maximum speed, why not just apply the existing maxspeed=* tag to the tracks? It is not clear to me whether your intention with traffic=fast refers to some attribute of the track itself, or the use to which it is put. Is it some official designation (from Network Rail)? I recall also seeing things like service=main_line (from memory) to distinguish main line from local tracks. Colin On 09/08/2012 11:33, Richard Mann wrote: There's two things that distinguish HSLs/LGVs/NBSs: high maxspeed (typically 250-320, though some would include the new lines in Switzerland, which are only 200), and a lack of slow traffic (freight, stopping passenger services) because they have alternative routes. In some cases, you can get pretty high speeds without providing a second pair of lines, if traffic is sparse (upto 200kmh in the UK, upto 230kmh in Germany), so I think the presence/absence of a parallel slow route is something that can usefully tagged explicitly. Richard On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:21 AM, St Niklaas st.nikl...@live.nl wrote: Hi taggers, Colins question are there more countries with different speed rules on tracks ? Yes all the TGV like tracks in Europe through, France, Germany and Netherlands are specially build for TGVs but somewhere there still tracks combined, limited speed up to 100 miles / hr. Hendrik ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?
Hi Ole, Am Donnerstag, 9. August 2012, 17:55:24 schrieb Ole Nielsen / osm: First of all I actually approved the proposal but later realized that having variable keys is less than ideal. then *please* tell me the reason why you believe this is the case, because I haven't seen any compelling counter-argument so far. What I have seen from different people: - allows for an almost infinite number of keys: existing tagging shows that keys tend to cluster, e.g. maxspeed:(22:00-06:00) is in use 395 (!) times with 6 different values (putting this into perspective: meagre 4494 occurences of maxspeed:backward). Those clustering effects become even stronger with increased usage. - kills PostgreSQL database performance: when you preprocess your routing data, you have to do a linear scan over all tag hstores anyway. - difficult because of special chars: the only situation where this actually matters is when you search inside your editor – and in that case the ':' already requires you to quote your key, at least in JOSM - difficult to parse for computers: every programmer can tell you in a second that this is plain wrong - difficult to parse for humans: so far, everybody I talked to about this was able to grasp the meaning of maxspeed:(22:00-06:00) = 100 in a split second And – of course – my favourite: - un-OSM-y, don't like it Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Extended tagging schema - my thoughts
Hi Rob, Am Donnerstag, 9. August 2012, 17:33:59 schrieb Rob Nickerson: Can I therefore give alternative suggestions: * maxspeed=120; 80?wet; 60?wet+hgv Ask a few mappers not participating in this discussion what this key/value combination is supposed to express, and I'll bet most of them will have problems telling you the correct meaning; e.g. the first time I read this, I interpreted wet+hgv as wet or hgv. Here '?' can be interpreted as 'if' and '+' as 'and'. Many alternatives can be proposed using alternate symbols (or none at all). In fact, it is already in use: * opening_hours=Mo-Sa 10:00-20:00; Tu off I'd be careful using the opening_hours syntax as an analogy, e.g. what is maxspeed = 80?wet;120 supposed to mean? Advantages: Easy to reduce back to the basic condition, editors can implement this in a fancy GUI; expandable, can use bots to analyse/fix I'm not sure what easy to reduce back to the basic condition means. However, all the other advantages you list exist for almost any tagging scheme proposed so far. Here are some disadvantages of merging everything into a single value: - readability and ease of manual editing suffers - you lose backward compatibility - you don't integrate widely used conditions like forward, hgv, … - you run into the (real) risk of exceeding the 255 byte limit imposed on values Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
