Re: [Tagging] Landuse=grass - boots on change to wiki

2017-01-08 Thread Mark Wagner 
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 12:28:37 +1100
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Following on from the discussion on "Wrong use of
> landuse=village_green 
> - but what else to use?" and subsequently bring up the wiki on 
> landuse=grass I have made a major change to landuse=grass to what I 
> think it should be
> 
> 
> Some will be upset by this .. fine. However I think they are mapping
> a land cover ..not a land use.
> 
> 
> For instance green areas in roundabouts, highway medians  ... are
> used by the highway ... and should be tagged similar to railways ... 
> landuse=highway!
> 
> If the grassed area needs to be tagged then tag WHAT IS THERE ... 
> landcover=grass (or natural=grass) ... the land is use in a highway 
> situation to provide safety for the highway users .. it is not for
> the use of the grass!
> 

Are you volunteering to fix the two million now-incorrect uses of the
tag?

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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Yves 
John,  maybe you have something in your post: landcover=landscaping? 
Yves 

Le 9 janvier 2017 07:25:05 GMT+01:00, John Willis  a écrit :
>
>
>
>> On Jan 9, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Bill Ricker  wrote:
>> 
>> It would be a great option, but that's not what the gardeners
>> maintaining the traffic islands, rotary or otherwise, are planting
>> here.
>
>tl;dr:
>
>Tagging the trees and the flowerbeds is great - but all that other 1-3m
>tall green crap people maintain around roads is all hedges to me,
>unless it is just scrub or another wild landuse for unmaintained
>places. 
>
>~
>
>The road I'm driving in Tokyo right now has 3 types of (very thick)
>bushes along the road separating the road traffic from the pedestrians,
>some small mullberry trees and vines growing on frames to emulate a
>hedge. 
>
>Out in the rural spots, the "grass" on small little places around the
>roads is usually thick weeds. 
>
>It's all barrier=hedge to me. Tag the trees if you can.
>
>The grass in a highway median is overrun for out of control cars -
>clearly landuse=highway + landcover=grass.  Grass in the center of a
>roundabout would be too.
>
>The hedges and landscaping are blocking People from walking, biking, or
>from dumping their garbage - or as some kind of landscaping to prevent
>people casually walking in the area - seems like barrier=hedge to me.
>Flowerbeds are great and very specific - but how often are there tended
>beds of flowers? 
>
>They may not be hedgerows, but it is a barrier in many cases. They may
>be little bushes or vines. Or little tree shaped things. But as a
>group, it is a barrier, similar to how barrier=rope is a barrier - more
>symbolic than forceful. 
>
>
>Javbw. 
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread John Willis 



> On Jan 9, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Bill Ricker  wrote:
> 
> It would be a great option, but that's not what the gardeners
> maintaining the traffic islands, rotary or otherwise, are planting
> here.

tl;dr:

Tagging the trees and the flowerbeds is great - but all that other 1-3m tall 
green crap people maintain around roads is all hedges to me, unless it is just 
scrub or another wild landuse for unmaintained places. 

~

The road I'm driving in Tokyo right now has 3 types of (very thick) bushes 
along the road separating the road traffic from the pedestrians, some small 
mullberry trees and vines growing on frames to emulate a hedge. 

Out in the rural spots, the "grass" on small little places around the roads is 
usually thick weeds. 

It's all barrier=hedge to me. Tag the trees if you can.

The grass in a highway median is overrun for out of control cars - clearly 
landuse=highway + landcover=grass.  Grass in the center of a roundabout would 
be too.

The hedges and landscaping are blocking People from walking, biking, or from 
dumping their garbage - or as some kind of landscaping to prevent people 
casually walking in the area - seems like barrier=hedge to me. Flowerbeds are 
great and very specific - but how often are there tended beds of flowers? 

They may not be hedgerows, but it is a barrier in many cases. They may be 
little bushes or vines. Or little tree shaped things. But as a group, it is a 
barrier, similar to how barrier=rope is a barrier - more symbolic than 
forceful. 


Javbw. 


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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Bill Ricker 
On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 10:51 PM, John Willis  wrote:
> Hedge is of great use in this situation

It would be a great option, but that's not what the gardeners
maintaining the traffic islands, rotary or otherwise, are planting
here.

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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread John Willis 


> On Jan 9, 2017, at 5:02 AM, Marc Zoutendijk  wrote:
> 
> you find also in the middle of a roundabout.
> Adn I wouldn’t call an area of 14m2 between two sections of a highway,

Hedge is of great use in this situation. 

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[Tagging] Landuse=grass - boots on change to wiki

2017-01-08 Thread Warin 

Hi,

Following on from the discussion on "Wrong use of landuse=village_green 
- but what else to use?" and subsequently bring up the wiki on 
landuse=grass I have made a major change to landuse=grass to what I 
think it should be



Some will be upset by this .. fine. However I think they are mapping a 
land cover ..not a land use.



For instance green areas in roundabouts, highway medians  ... are used 
by the highway ... and should be tagged similar to railways ... 
landuse=highway!


If the grassed area needs to be tagged then tag WHAT IS THERE ... 
landcover=grass (or natural=grass) ... the land is use in a highway 
situation to provide safety for the highway users .. it is not for the 
use of the grass!



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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Warin 

On 09-Jan-17 11:19 AM, Warin wrote:

On 09-Jan-17 08:35 AM, Bill Ricker wrote:

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
Landuse is a tag that is not about what is there - trees, shrubs, 
flowers,

concrete etc ... but the USE of the area.

A park is used for relaxation.
A recreation_ground is used for recreation (physical activity). And 
so on.


So the the land use under discussion is green, diminutive, and
decorative yet inaccessible (or inadvisable) -- green median of a dual
carriageway, plantings in a roundabout center -- Do we have a term in
our taxonomy for that, either in landuse=* or some other, and if not,
what should it be?  is that the question ?

landuse=* may be the wrong tag. Landuse studies normally talk about
larger areas than 14m2 ... see [1] "For example a leisure=park tag may
be used to describe a park within a landuse=residential area, or for a
very large park may be the primary landuse. "


the Landuse [1] page decries landuse=grass because it's a cover not a
use,


landuse=grass is for the PRODUCTION of grass - Grass is grown here, 
harvested (with a little soil) and transported somewhere and planted. 
Then more grass is grown etc.


In the same way landuse=forest is for the Production of things from 
the tress grown there.


See http://www.freshturf.co.uk/


but elsewhere [2] it is documented as the appropriate tag for a
roundabout center.

So yes we have a tag in use, but there are reasons it may be wrong.

If plantings are particularly nice, i suppose it could rise to a
leisure=garden, garden:[type,style]=*, access=no
but the average roundabout or median has a flower box or a mass of
perennials, not anything i or the maintainers of [3] would admit was a
garden.

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Landuse
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dgrass
[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgarden


I have now made a _MAJOR_ change to 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dgrass ... to reflect 
what I think should be there.


Feel free to disagree ... I'll only argue back :)


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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Warin 

On 09-Jan-17 08:35 AM, Bill Ricker wrote:

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Landuse is a tag that is not about what is there - trees, shrubs, flowers,
concrete etc ... but the USE of the area.

A park is used for relaxation.
A recreation_ground is used for recreation (physical activity). And so on.


So the the land use under discussion is green, diminutive, and
decorative yet inaccessible (or inadvisable) -- green median of a dual
carriageway, plantings in a roundabout center -- Do we have a term in
our taxonomy for that, either in landuse=* or some other, and if not,
what should it be?  is that the question ?

landuse=* may be the wrong tag. Landuse studies normally talk about
larger areas than 14m2 ... see [1] "For example a leisure=park tag may
be used to describe a park within a landuse=residential area, or for a
very large park may be the primary landuse. "


the Landuse [1] page decries landuse=grass because it's a cover not a
use,


landuse=grass is for the PRODUCTION of grass - Grass is grown here, 
harvested (with a little soil) and transported somewhere and planted. 
Then more grass is grown etc.


In the same way landuse=forest is for the Production of things from the 
tress grown there.


See http://www.freshturf.co.uk/


but elsewhere [2] it is documented as the appropriate tag for a
roundabout center.

So yes we have a tag in use, but there are reasons it may be wrong.

If plantings are particularly nice, i suppose it could rise to a
leisure=garden, garden:[type,style]=*, access=no
but the average roundabout or median has a flower box or a mass of
perennials, not anything i or the maintainers of [3] would admit was a
garden.

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Landuse
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dgrass
[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgarden




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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Warin 

On 09-Jan-17 09:49 AM, Wolfgang Zenker wrote:

* Marc Zoutendijk  [170108 21:02]:

Op 8 jan. 2017, om 20:20 heeft Tod Fitch  het volgende 
geschreven:
Based on usage in the United States, it sure sounds like leisure=park is the 
tag to use for what you are describing. I see nothing in the wiki page [1] for 
park that indicates it must be a minimum size, have a wall, a discrete entrance 
or that it has to have a name.  There are a lot of areas local to me called 
parks, that are tagged with leisure=park and which do not have fences/walls/or 
gates. And some of the smaller ones (colloquially called “mini-parks”) don’t 
seem to have names either.

To me a park is some place that you gan "go into”. E.g." let’s go out for a 
stroll in the park.”
The wiki:
"Typically open to the public, but may be fenced off, and may be temporarily 
closed e.g. at night time.”
But i’m talking also about the areas that you find also in the middle of a 
roundabout.
Adn I wouldn’t call an area of 14m2 between two sections of a highway, covered 
with grass and some flowers a “park”.
No, there really must be something better (I hope) to describe this sort of 
landuse.

The process of creating and maintaining these green spaces would be called
"urban landscaping" as far as I know. Unfortunately I can't find a better
word for these areas than "green spaces".

Wolfgang



Road medians and islands are part of the road infrastructure .. so the 
'landuse' would be for the highway ... much like emergency lanes, 
emergency bays, parking areas.
See landuse=railway for ideas ... 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Drailway
I would note that at least some landuse=railway would have grass, 
flowers etc ... so I don't think landuse=grass etc should be used at all 
for landcover.


At the moment I don't tag these at that kind of detail. Way too much 
else to do.


I think things like 'flowerbeds' should be a land cover tag (presently 
under the poor tag of 'natural' in OSM).


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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Daniel Koć 

W dniu 08.01.2017 19:59, Marc Zoutendijk napisał(a):


They are not to be confused with a garden or a park, because those
usually have some sort of fence or wall around them, they can have a
name and they have an entrance.


This is also not that easy. I have problems with recognizing parks from 
gardens and green squares.



One of the proposals for this (mixed) type of landuse is
“municipality_green” or "municipality_vegetation", and before we
continue with its use, I would like to learn what kind of discussions
have been had before about tagging this kind of landuse.
I read various discussions on the German forum and started one in the
Dutch forum [2], but could not find anything recently in the tagging
archives. Anyone who knows (something) better?


I like your proposition, thanks for trying to solve it. In Poland we 
commonly use term "municipality green" ("zieleń miejska").


In some cases you can use quite popular draft landuse=flowerbed, which 
is a part of municipality green:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dflowerbed

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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Wolfgang Zenker 
* Marc Zoutendijk  [170108 21:02]:
>> Op 8 jan. 2017, om 20:20 heeft Tod Fitch  het volgende 
>> geschreven:

>> Based on usage in the United States, it sure sounds like leisure=park is the 
>> tag to use for what you are describing. I see nothing in the wiki page [1] 
>> for park that indicates it must be a minimum size, have a wall, a discrete 
>> entrance or that it has to have a name.  There are a lot of areas local to 
>> me called parks, that are tagged with leisure=park and which do not have 
>> fences/walls/or gates. And some of the smaller ones (colloquially called 
>> “mini-parks”) don’t seem to have names either.

> To me a park is some place that you gan "go into”. E.g." let’s go out for a 
> stroll in the park.”

> The wiki:

> "Typically open to the public, but may be fenced off, and may be temporarily 
> closed e.g. at night time.”

> But i’m talking also about the areas that you find also in the middle of a 
> roundabout.
> Adn I wouldn’t call an area of 14m2 between two sections of a highway, 
> covered with grass and some flowers a “park”.

> No, there really must be something better (I hope) to describe this sort of 
> landuse.

The process of creating and maintaining these green spaces would be called
"urban landscaping" as far as I know. Unfortunately I can't find a better
word for these areas than "green spaces".

Wolfgang

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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Bill Ricker 
On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Landuse is a tag that is not about what is there - trees, shrubs, flowers,
> concrete etc ... but the USE of the area.
>
> A park is used for relaxation.
> A recreation_ground is used for recreation (physical activity). And so on.


So the the land use under discussion is green, diminutive, and
decorative yet inaccessible (or inadvisable) -- green median of a dual
carriageway, plantings in a roundabout center -- Do we have a term in
our taxonomy for that, either in landuse=* or some other, and if not,
what should it be?  is that the question ?

landuse=* may be the wrong tag. Landuse studies normally talk about
larger areas than 14m2 ... see [1] "For example a leisure=park tag may
be used to describe a park within a landuse=residential area, or for a
very large park may be the primary landuse. "


the Landuse [1] page decries landuse=grass because it's a cover not a
use, but elsewhere [2] it is documented as the appropriate tag for a
roundabout center.

So yes we have a tag in use, but there are reasons it may be wrong.

If plantings are particularly nice, i suppose it could rise to a
   leisure=garden, garden:[type,style]=*, access=no
but the average roundabout or median has a flower box or a mass of
perennials, not anything i or the maintainers of [3] would admit was a
garden.

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Landuse
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dgrass
[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgarden

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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Warin 

On 09-Jan-17 07:02 AM, Marc Zoutendijk wrote:


Op 8 jan. 2017, om 20:20 heeft Tod Fitch > het volgende geschreven:


Based on usage in the United States, it sure sounds like leisure=park 
is the tag to use for what you are describing. I see nothing in the 
wiki page [1] for park that indicates it must be a minimum size, have 
a wall, a discrete entrance or that it has to have a name.  There are 
a lot of areas local to me called parks, that are tagged with 
leisure=park and which do not have fences/walls/or gates. And some of 
the smaller ones (colloquially called “mini-parks”) don’t seem to 
have names either.




Todd,

To me a park is some place that you gan "go into”. E.g." let’s go out 
for a stroll in the park.”


The wiki:

"Typically open to the public, but may be fenced off, and may be 
temporarily closed e.g. at night time.”


But i’m talking also about the areas that you find also in the middle 
of a roundabout.
Adn I wouldn’t call an area of 14m2 between two sections of a highway, 
covered with grass and some flowers a “park”.


No, there really must be something better (I hope) to describe this 
sort of landuse.


Marc.


Landuse is a tag that is not about what is there - trees, shrubs, 
flowers, concrete etc ... but the USE of the area.


A park is used for relaxation.
A recreation_ground is used for recreation (physical activity). And so on.

While some parks may have a fence around them, some don't.
There is no requirement for a park to have a fence nor should there be - 
remember OSM is world wide .. what is common practice in one part of the 
world may be exceptional in another part.


landuse=village_green I take to be a 'common' in Australia as that too 
has legal status in Australia similar to 'village_green' in the UK.


If the USE of the area fits well with any current tag .. then use that tag.
Physical objects, like fences, have other tags that can be used to 
indicate their presence.
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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Marc Zoutendijk 

> Op 8 jan. 2017, om 20:20 heeft Tod Fitch  het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
> Based on usage in the United States, it sure sounds like leisure=park is the 
> tag to use for what you are describing. I see nothing in the wiki page [1] 
> for park that indicates it must be a minimum size, have a wall, a discrete 
> entrance or that it has to have a name.  There are a lot of areas local to me 
> called parks, that are tagged with leisure=park and which do not have 
> fences/walls/or gates. And some of the smaller ones (colloquially called 
> “mini-parks”) don’t seem to have names either.
> 


Todd,

To me a park is some place that you gan "go into”. E.g." let’s go out for a 
stroll in the park.”

The wiki:

"Typically open to the public, but may be fenced off, and may be temporarily 
closed e.g. at night time.”

But i’m talking also about the areas that you find also in the middle of a 
roundabout.
Adn I wouldn’t call an area of 14m2 between two sections of a highway, covered 
with grass and some flowers a “park”.

No, there really must be something better (I hope) to describe this sort of 
landuse.

Marc.

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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Tod Fitch 

> On Jan 8, 2017, at 10:59 AM, Marc Zoutendijk  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Some mappers use landuse=village_green to tag those spots on the map that are 
> combinations of grass, plants, bushes, flowers and sometimes a few small 
> trees.
> The size can vary between 1m2 to maybe 100m2-500m2. 
> Areas like those are usually maintained bij the municipality and are used as 
> a means to improve the environment of the inhabitants of a village or city. 
> They are not to be confused with a garden or a park, because those usually 
> have some sort of fence or wall around them, they can have a name and they 
> have an entrance.
> In the Dutch community we are now seeking for a proper tagging for this kind 
> of landuse that consists of various other landuses (forest, grass and others) 
> mixed together.
> 
> The (mis)use of village_green for the landuse like what I described above, 
> stems mainly from a misunderstanding of the typical English definition and 
> use of the village_green as described in the wiki. [1] 
> Not being from Great Britain, I don't understand it either! Some people argue 
> that landuse=village_green cannot exist outside of Great Britain because of 
> its special, legal, status.
> 
> One of the proposals for this (mixed) type of landuse is “municipality_green” 
> or "municipality_vegetation", and before we continue with its use, I would 
> like to learn what kind of discussions have been had before about tagging 
> this kind of landuse. 
> I read various discussions on the German forum and started one in the Dutch 
> forum [2], but could not find anything recently in the tagging archives. 
> Anyone who knows (something) better?
> 
> 
> Marc
> 
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dvillage_green 
> 
> [2] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=56899 
> 
> 

Based on usage in the United States, it sure sounds like leisure=park is the 
tag to use for what you are describing. I see nothing in the wiki page [1] for 
park that indicates it must be a minimum size, have a wall, a discrete entrance 
or that it has to have a name.  There are a lot of areas local to me called 
parks, that are tagged with leisure=park and which do not have fences/walls/or 
gates. And some of the smaller ones (colloquially called “mini-parks”) don’t 
seem to have names either.

FWIW, it sounds like the New England town or village “commons” was based on the 
concept of “village green” stated in the wiki. Since I’ve never lived in New 
England, I am not sure how those commons are treated under current law and 
custom.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dpark


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[Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

2017-01-08 Thread Marc Zoutendijk 
Hello,

Some mappers use landuse=village_green to tag those spots on the map that are 
combinations of grass, plants, bushes, flowers and sometimes a few small trees.
The size can vary between 1m2 to maybe 100m2-500m2. 
Areas like those are usually maintained bij the municipality and are used as a 
means to improve the environment of the inhabitants of a village or city. 
They are not to be confused with a garden or a park, because those usually have 
some sort of fence or wall around them, they can have a name and they have an 
entrance.
In the Dutch community we are now seeking for a proper tagging for this kind of 
landuse that consists of various other landuses (forest, grass and others) 
mixed together.

The (mis)use of village_green for the landuse like what I described above, 
stems mainly from a misunderstanding of the typical English definition and use 
of the village_green as described in the wiki. [1] 
Not being from Great Britain, I don't understand it either! Some people argue 
that landuse=village_green cannot exist outside of Great Britain because of its 
special, legal, status.

One of the proposals for this (mixed) type of landuse is “municipality_green” 
or "municipality_vegetation", and before we continue with its use, I would like 
to learn what kind of discussions have been had before about tagging this kind 
of landuse. 
I read various discussions on the German forum and started one in the Dutch 
forum [2], but could not find anything recently in the tagging archives. Anyone 
who knows (something) better?


Marc

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dvillage_green 

[2] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=56899 



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