Re: [Tagging] Rail replacement bus service

[Agustin Rissoli]

In this lamentably abandoned proposal it was suggested
public_transport:type=replacement
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Differentiation_for_routes_of_public_transport



Agustín



El vie., 10 de marzo de 2023 9:04 a. m., 
escribió:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Rail replacement bus service (hanser)
>2. Re: Rail replacement bus service (stevea)
>3. Re: Rail replacement bus service (Warin)
>4. Re: Rail replacement bus service (Martin Koppenhoefer)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:21:44 +0100
> From: hanser 
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: [Tagging] Rail replacement bus service
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Hello,
>
> please consider my suggestion which I would like to transfer to an
> official proposal after the idea got some feedback from this mailing list.
>
> Public rail transport normally has a rail replacement bus service[1] for
> when the rails are in maintenance or under construction. There exist bus
> stops that are designated for that special purpose ? often with a
> special sign[2] which indicates this (sometimes additional) function.
> Also often there are signs[3] or marks on the floor[4] to direct the
> passengers to these stops.
> So these stops are a permanent setup and worthy to be mapped in OSM.
> Especially because in smaller train stations these signs are often
> insufficiently frequent, if present at all ? and OSM could be of great
> help in navigating to the stops. For my region, the railway company has
> a portal[5] where you can download a map for directions to the
> replacement service for a certain train station[6].
>
> The suggestion is to be able to add the tag
> *rail_replacement_service=yes*
> to public_transport denoted elements.
>
> Do you have any thoughts about this? Any help in general would be highly
> appreciated, since this is my first osm proposal :)
>
> Thanks a lot for your consideration
> hanser
>
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_replacement_bus_service
> [2]
>
> https://assets.static-bahn.de/.imaging/focalpoint/752x564/dam/jcr:10873a29-30b7-4c71-812e-079f491cda86/DB175994.jpg
> (german sign with english translation)
> [3]
>
> https://assets.static-bahn.de/.imaging/focalpoint/752x564/dam/jcr:3659762a-5381-4be8-9da3-4cebdf4695c2/DB175857.jpg
> (german sign with english translation)
> [4]
>
> https://assets.static-bahn.de/.imaging/focalpoint/752x564/dam/jcr:74393c33-a00e-428e-a260-e4c93c3b9162/Fu%C3%9Fabdruck_SEV.jpg
> (german sign with english translation)
> [5] https://regional.bahn.de/regionen/baden-wuerttemberg/fahrplan/sev
> (german ? link all the way at the bottom)
> [6] https://www.bahnhof.de/downloads/replacement-service-maps/5242.pdf
> (example map to the replacement service for Reutlingen)
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 23:46:06 -0800
> From: stevea 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Rail replacement bus service
> Message-ID: <66167d36-fb43-4029-8453-e394d1a14...@softworkers.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=us-ascii
>
> A most excellent suggestion, hanser, and at first glance, a
> well-structured OSM thrust forward for this concept:  I am enthusiastic.
> Please keep up this sort of good communication!
>
> Just yesterday I left off of our Caltrain wiki [1] the so-called
> "6-trains" on its Schedule [2] in preparation for what will be called
> "Blended Service" (future California High Speed Rail shares "commuter rail"
> tracks upgraded to what in the USA are Class 6 track, 110 MPH / 176 km/hr)
> known as the "Northern Bookend" in the San Francisco Bay Area's big
> upgrades to rail over the next decade.
>
> The reason I left off the "6-trains" from this train wiki table is because
> these aren't trains.  (During weekend construction of new electrification
> towers, substations, et cetera).  Here (California, USA), we don't call
> these "Ersatz" or "Replacement" service for the trains, we call these "bus
> bridges."
>
> With this, OSM will have a way to describe these "acting like train routes
> but are really bus routes."  They do have their own "special purpose"
> signage, paint-on-pavement (sometimes looks like shoe-prints-in-paint) and
> other "route navigation aids."  I look forward to a well-designed proposal
> and/or the emergence of sensible tagging

Re: [Tagging] insurance health

[Agustin Rissoli]

Yes, it is also so here, these companies are entirely specialized in
health, the regulation and management is completely different from a
conventional insurer.
We did a search with the name of one of the best known companies, they are
mapped with a wide variety of tags, but one of the most used is company.



> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:03:04 +0900
> From: Joseph Eisenberg 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] insurance health
> Message-ID:
>  x4umopvda2aipb7emhxbsuw-uxfvq96nhvlhia...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I would use office=health_insurance
>
> In my experience (mostly in the USA), an office=insurance will sell
> you life insurance, house or rental insurance, car insurance, travel
> insurance and some other kinds, but will usually not sell health
> insurance, while a health insurance office is likely to specialize.
>
> Is that also true in Argentina?
>
> (If you want to use a subtag, another option would be office=company
> (very common tag) + company=health_insurance or something like that)
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On 4/14/20, Agustin Rissoli  wrote:
> > In Argentina we want to correctly tagging offices of companies dedicated
> to
> > what we call prepaid medicine, by paying a monthly fee you access a
> series
> > of medical benefits.
> > We are hesitating between these tags:
> >
> > office=health_insurance
> > It has no wiki, it has 185 uses, the majority in Belgium since it was
> > created in 2013, they even have a preset in JOSM.
> >
> > office=insurance + insurance=health
> > It has a wiki, curiously created by a Belgian user in 2018, it has 66
> uses.
> > It is the only documented insurance=* key.
> >
> > What do you think would be the correct use?
> >
> > --
> > *AGUS*!  :)
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> --
*AGUS*!  :)
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[Tagging] insurance health

[Agustin Rissoli]

In Argentina we want to correctly tagging offices of companies dedicated to
what we call prepaid medicine, by paying a monthly fee you access a series
of medical benefits.
We are hesitating between these tags:

office=health_insurance
It has no wiki, it has 185 uses, the majority in Belgium since it was
created in 2013, they even have a preset in JOSM.

office=insurance + insurance=health
It has a wiki, curiously created by a Belgian user in 2018, it has 66 uses.
It is the only documented insurance=* key.

What do you think would be the correct use?

-- 
*AGUS*!  :)
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'add=milestone'

[Agustin Rissoli]

>
> this implies road markers must be present, right? Isn’t this mainly about the 
> distance from some zero point, even in the absence of road distance markers?
>
> No, many times there are no marks, for me it does not have to be implicit

I would not invent myself these numbers, I would copy them from
> the gate where they have been put by the owner or municipality (regardless
> of actual distances or even if they are in slight contradiction with nearby
> road markers, as I have seen occur). If nothing is signposted, I would
> rather map the road markers nearby (if any).
>
> agree, many times these addresses are calculated by the same owner

Somebody remarked earlier in the thread that there are places in the US
> where the distances are
> used as house numbers.  I think the duck test applies.  It doesn't matter
> if a house number is
> assigned sequentially, or is based upon distance from some specified point,
> or is based upon
> some mad king throwing darts at a map: if it looks like a house number, is
> treated like a house
> number, and appears on the house/gate/whatever as a house number, then it's
> a house number.
> House numbers don't have to be sequential or monotonic, I can think of a
> couple of roads in my
> town where the house numbers are counter-intuitive.  So it doesn't matter
> if those house numbers
> were assigned based on a distance along a road, and that subsequent road
> remodelling has
> resulted in them all being inaccurate without a milepost equation: if it
> quacks like a house
> number then it's a house number.
>
> If they're not house numbers marked somewhere on the property, and if there
> are sometimes
> (as the OP has stated) missing markers, and if road remodelling has
> rendered the distances
> incorrect, then what good is addr:road_marker in those particular
> circumstances?
>
> It appears addr:road_marker is only really applicable where all of the
> following apply:
>
> 1: The number is not marked on the property (otherwise it's a house number,
> however
> derived).
>
> 2) Road remodelling has not significantly changed the distances between the
> property
> and the two nearest road markers (so you know it's somewhere between marker
> X and
> marker Y).
>
> 3) Road markers have not been recalibrated following extensive road
> remodelling.
>
> --
> Paul
>
> In Argentina it is common to have addresses with house number, street
name, and also address per km., For example Avenida San Martín 5440, Ruta 9
km 60.5
It is often used on routes that cross small towns and suburban areas. I
also saw the same thing in Uruguay, where I got to see addresses with
street name, lot number, km number of the route without house number (the
number of km belongs to the route and not the street numbering )

Agustin
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Agustin Rissoli]

I think we can add a clarification, which says that these directions are
not exact, but usually based on the approximate position with respect to a
milestone on the road.

Agustín


Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 19:25:29 +0100
From: Paul Allen 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 18:59, Agustin Rissoli  wrote:

>
> > > Perfect! That is exactly what happens in real life when someone is
> seeking an address based on location markers once the precision of the
> distance used in addresses is low.
>
> This description should be in the eventual wiki
>

You think?  That's a description of how somebody navigates to an address
like that
without a map.  Keep an eye on the odometer.  Look for "milestones."  If
you see
a "milestone" numbered higher than in the address, you've gone too far.
But it's
not how you navigate if you have a map.  Especially if the map display is
capable
of using GPS to show your current position.

>
>
-- 
Paul
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[Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Agustin Rissoli]

Jorge,
I think we should change the name of the tag to addr:road_marker or
another, as many are not interested in milestone not being the correct
name, nor should they care that it does not match highway=milestone, it is
a lesser evil.

> Think of the ‘milestone’ as a point of reference. The ‘milestone’ only
provides a general idea > of how far or how close you are to a destination.
Once you go beyond and reach the next
> ‘milestone’ you may need to turn around and go slower to find what you
are seeking.

> > Perfect! That is exactly what happens in real life when someone is
seeking an address based on location markers once the precision of the
distance used in addresses is low.

This description should be in the eventual wiki

@Paul Allen keep calm


Saludos, Agustín.
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Re: [Tagging] Bus rapid transit: service=bus vs service=busway vs no service tag

[Agustin Rissoli]

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 07:29:30 -0300
From: Fernando Trebien 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: [Tagging] Bus rapid transit: service=bus vs service=busway vs
no service tag
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hello,

I find it strange to use highway=service without being able to add a
service=* to specify the type of service way, but that's how most BRTs
[1] are currently mapped, for example, TransJakarta, Bogota's
TransMilenio, and the Metrobus systems of Mexicy City and Buenos
Aires.

I've seen service=busway applied to the ways of some BRTs [1], such as
in Los Angeles' Orange Line and Nantes' Line 4, and its usage has been
growing slowly, but it is not documented. On the other hand,
service=bus is much more common, but the wiki discourages its use [2]
since 2017, although I could not find any discussion supporting this
change. It seems service=bus was used to compensate for "issues with a
routing engine" [2], but no other applications seem to support this
value, and maybe those app-related issues no longer exist.

As of 2019, what do you think is the ideal/correct way of mapping
these bus corridors? Should service=* be avoided on them? Should
service=busway be documented? Should service=bus be replaced with
service=busway?

Regards,

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit
[2] Currently, the warning message is not displayed on mobile
browsers: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:service%3Dbus

-- 
Fernando Trebien



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In the wiki of bus lanes say:
For dedicated, separate bus tracks, use highway
=service
, access
=no
, psv
=designated
 (or psv
=yes
).
I think it's correct
I usually use bus=designated in my area since taxis are not allowed, I also
add emergency=yes
Saludos, Agustín.
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Agustin Rissoli]

 I do not agree with adding schedules of departures to OSM, where I live
would be almost impossible to maintain, more than 200 bus routes, most with
frequencies less than 20 minutes, with more than 50 stops each route, stops
with 15 different routes , the frequencies vary according to the time of
day, there are routes that have a frequency of 6 minutes, imagine uploading
all that information and that the company decides to change 2 minutes the
schedules, nh.
I prefer to use this proposal:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Interval to indicate
the usual frequency of each route, that would be very useful.

Saludos, Agustín-

Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

> Message-ID:
>  iwm_hfayhhqxu2ybq5xob-x6g9omur_rrdzsl...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The timetable proposal would not affect existing OSM data.  It would simply
> add new relations having existing features as members of those relations.
> If timetables are out of date for a certain route, a contributor could
> simply delete all of the timetable relations that are parents of that
> route.  Rather than maintainability being the issue, it would be actually
> re-adding the deleted data that would be hard.
> This type of data is more useful on train routes, which are better
> maintained than bus routes.  Bus routes with complex or often changing
> schedules should just be given the tags "interval" and
> "interval:conditional" and not full schedule data.
> My main point is that no harm can be done by this proposal.  If people
> don't like timetables, they can simply ignore them.  If they are not being
> maintained, the relations can easily be deleted without affecting the
> routes in place.  No harm done.  In many cases, however, bus route and
> train route schedules are very simply, and it would be a shame to not be
> able to add schedule data to those routes.
>
> Before voting, I will split up the proposal into three different proposals.
> * The "interval" tag.
> * Full ferry route timetables.
> * Timetable relations.
> This way, people can choose to approve some of the new features and vote
> against others.
>
> What do people think of the ferry route schedules proposal?  I have only
> heard feedback on bus routes so far, and I am not sure what people think of
> the ferry route system that I have come up with.  It would simply just be a
> couple of new tags added to ferry route ways.
>
> Thanks,
> Leif Rasmussen
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Re: [Tagging] Still RFC — Drop stop positions and platforms

[Agustin Rissoli]

 something like this?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcS8-g1EGfk

Agustín-

Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 19:53:08 +0200 (CEST)
From: Marián Kyral 
To: , Tag discussion, strategy and related tools

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Still RFC — Drop stop positions and platforms
Message-ID: <4}.yx5v.1gvso5zhwnk.1qk...@seznam.cz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"


-- Původní e-mail --
Od: Jo 
Komu: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Datum: 28. 3. 2018 18:43:15
Předmět: Re: [Tagging] Still RFC — Drop stop positions and platforms




Yes. I like it as well. But it still could be improved. E.g. I'm thinking
about tool which - If you create four objects: two nodes on highway and two
nodes/ways beside highway and select all of them - will automatically tag
them as stop_position and platform and will create corresponding public_
transport relation. I have to find a time to develop it.


Marián






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Re: [Tagging] departures_board vs. passenger_information_display

[Agustin Rissoli]

Maybe passenger_information_display:type=arrivals/departures? or similar

Agustín.


El feb. 26, 2018 9:02 AM,  escribió:

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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:52:25 +0100
From: Matej Lieskovský 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] departures_board vs.
passenger_information_display
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Greetings!

Czech railway stations have separate arrival and departure boards (and
entirely separate general information boards) that can be far enough apart
for the distinction being important. If you're standing in front of a
departure board, finding an arrival board might not be trivial.

Happy mapping!
Matej

On 26 February 2018 at 09:29, Johnparis  wrote:

> AgusQui has noticed that the two keys mentioned in the subject line are
> essentially duplicates.
>
> I think passenger_information_display is more useful, as it can include
> arrivals as well as departures. It also outnumbers departures_board by
> about six to one.
>
> The departures_board key does have a useful subkey of realtime. I would
> suggest adding the following multivalue options:
>
> passenger_information_display = yes/no/realtime/static
>
> ... where "static" would cover the printed versions proposed in the
> departures_board page. Alternatively it could be a subkey:
>
> passenger_information_display:realtime = yes/no
>
> I frankly don't find it useful to make a distinction between printed
> timetables with times vs. printed timetables with intervals (Paris mixes
> the two anyhow).
>
> If folks think this is a good idea (and making departures_board
> deprecated), I could write up a formal proposal.
>
> John
>
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