[Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
Hi all,
I'd like to improve the state of mapping/tagging for LGBTQ topics, and
I'd like feedback.
There is an existing "gay" tag[1], which is used 650 times[2]. But it's
a little restrictive. And it also suggested "gay:transgender=yes" which
is just plain wrong.
So to start off, I'm suggest a simple "lgbtq=yes" tag to
mean "this thing is a LGBTQ thing". I've intermittently used
"lgbt"/"lgbtq" tag in the past, but I think "lgbtq" ("lesbian gay
bi trans queer") would probably be a little better.
So "amenity=bar lgbtq=yes" is what is commonly called a "gay bar".
"shop=books lgbtq=yes" is a LGBTQ book shop, "leisure=sauna lgbtq=yes"
is a gay sauna, etc. We can expand the tagging later, or just use
"lgbtq:(men|women|trans|cis|bears|...)=(yes|no)" straight (đ) away.
For trans issues, there's the whole topic of toilet tagging (unisex,
etc), which is tagged separately, and maybe there's some good way to tag
"informed consent" for medical clinics?
*When* to add a lgbtq=yes tag can be hard to know. In some places a gay
bar can be easily identified by a prominent rainbow flag. Some cultures
are less accepting, so bars might not be so blatant (I've seen this in
the EU). Using the common OSM rules of "local knowledge", people within
the local LGBTQ community are probably the best place to make a final call.
Like many things in OSM, most of the work will be the actual mapping.
It's best to tag areas your familiar with, IME online directories can
often have lots of facilities that no longer exist. At some point I want
to create a custom map based on this data (a la the now dead OpenQueerMap).
Thoughts? Comments? Feedback?
--
Rory
[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Visitors_orientation#for_gay.3D.2A
[2] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=gay
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Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
sent from a phone > On 23. Oct 2018, at 20:27, Rory McCann wrote: > > There is an existing "gay" tag[1], which is used 650 times[2]. But it's > a little restrictive. And it also suggested "gay:transgender=yes" which > is just plain wrong. > So to start off, I'm suggest a simple "lgbtq=yes" tag to > mean "this thing is a LGBTQ thing". there may be lgbtq things, but there are also places which are explicitly gay bars, i.e. for homosexual men. If you tag these as lesbian queer trans ... it may not be right Wouldnât it be more consistent with what we already have, to add lesbian, queer, trans and bi tags? Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
Hi, On 23.10.2018 20:27, Rory McCann wrote: > So to start off, I'm suggest a simple "lgbtq=yes" tag to > mean "this thing is a LGBTQ thing". Bit difficult perhaps since usually "blah=yes" means that blah is available or blah is permitted, not that the place is mostly/exclusively for blah. (e.g. smoking=yes, bus=yes, vegan=yes) Conversely, in your definition an "lgbtq=no" would then mean that the place is *not* specifically an lgbtq place; many users could, however, misread lgbtq=no (which would be a valid tag for the majority of places since they don't specifically cater to lgbtq people) as "this place does not admit lgbtq people" (which is probably/hopefully true only for a very small number of places). Sadly I do not have a good suggestion. You don't want "lgbtq=only" since usually an lgbtq bar *will* admit straight people (unless they're a hen party maybe). You'd need something like "lgbtq=mainly" - which would still not be exactly what you were looking for since it talks about who goes there in practice, not whom the place tries to attract. Perhaps "lgbtq=designated" combined with "straight=yes" ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
On Tuesday 23 October 2018, Rory McCann wrote: > [...] > > *When* to add a lgbtq=yes tag can be hard to know. In some places a > gay bar can be easily identified by a prominent rainbow flag. Some > cultures are less accepting, so bars might not be so blatant (I've > seen this in the EU). Using the common OSM rules of "local > knowledge", people within the local LGBTQ community are probably the > best place to make a final call. Based on what you wrote i have a bit of a problem seeing a verifiable meaning of the tag you are contemplating here. If there is some sort of certification system for bars based on objective criteria similar to hotel stars ratings that would be something that can be tagged but a subjective assessment based on perceived tolerance and friendliness or by statistics of the clientele seems problematic. What could make sense in countries with no general anti-discrimination laws w.r.t. gender identity and sexual orientation is lgbtq=no for establishments that specifically don't allow lgbtq people. That would essentially be an access restriction. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
On 10/24/2018 4:27 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote: *When* to add a lgbtq=yes tag can be hard to know. In some places a gay bar can be easily identified by a prominent rainbow flag. Some cultures are less accepting, so bars might not be so blatant (I've seen this in the EU). Using the common OSM rules of "local knowledge", people within the local LGBTQ community are probably the best place to make a final call. Based on what you wrote i have a bit of a problem seeing a verifiable meaning of the tag you are contemplating here. If there is some sort of certification system for bars based on objective criteria similar to hotel stars ratings that would be something that can be tagged but a subjective assessment based on perceived tolerance and friendliness or by statistics of the clientele seems problematic. I know many bars, restaurants, shops, and other businesses that fly a rainbow flag out of solidarity with the LGBTQ communities, but are not, best I can tell, gay establishments in any meaningful sense. Sometimes these flags appear when a business first opens, or sometimes they go up during Pride Week and simply remain indefinitely, like Halloween decor that somehow survives into the new year. I suppose you could interpret them as lgbtq=permissive (though frankly that sounds a little insulting) but not lgbtq=yes. Obviously, though, gay (etc) businesses are a real thing! And it's a thing that many people would like to know about a place, whether they're seeking it or avoiding it. The venerability is tricky. As Justice Potter Stewart said, "I know it when I see it" -- but I can't imagine how a "certified gay" system would work. The fact that homosexuality is criminalized or otherwise marginalized in many parts of the world adds to this problem. Some establishments might not want to draw attention to themselves in this way but would prefer to rely on word-of-mouth. These are definitely tricky waters. My suggestion would be to only tag lgbtq=* if the establishment itself communicates this in an official way -- though written signs, fliers, official business website/social media account. Unfortunately this will exclude a large number of gay businesses, but I'd say that if they prefer a subtler approach it's not a mapper's job to out them. J ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
On 23/10/2018 23:53, Andy Mabbett wrote >> "shop=books lgbtq=yes" is a LGBTQ book shop > Wouldn't that be "shop=books books=lgbtq"? Good point. On 24/10/2018 00:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: there may be lgbtq things, but there are also places which are explicitly gay bars, i.e. for homosexual men. If you tag these as lesbian queer trans ... it may not be right Wouldnât it be more consistent with what we already have, to add lesbian, queer, trans and bi tags? What kind of places are for gay (men) and not bi (men)? There's an overlap (let's skip over the too prevalent biphobia in the LG community). Lumping bi people of all gender into one category but splitting gay (men) & lesbians seems odd. Often what as called "gay bars" are open to all of the LGBTQ community. My proposal would allow lgbtq:male=yes to cover cases you describe, right? The existing tagging scheme prioritizes gay (men), which is subpar. On 24/10/2018 10:27, Christoph Hormann wrote: Based on what you wrote i have a bit of a problem seeing a verifiable meaning of the tag you are contemplating here. If there is some sort of certification system for bars based on objective criteria similar to hotel stars ratings that would be something that can be tagged but a subjective assessment based on perceived tolerance and friendliness or by statistics of the clientele seems problematic. Yes, "LGBTQ friendly" is subjective, but I don't mean that. "LGBTQ bars" *do* exist. If you want a simple rule: Does the business refer to itself as that? i.e. only map "out" gay bars, for security & verifiability reasons. On 24/10/2018 09:37, Frederik Ramm wrote: usually "blah=yes" means that blah is available or blah is permitted, not that the place is mostly/exclusively for blah. Conversely, in your definition an "lgbtq=no" would then mean that the place is *not* specifically an lgbtq place; many users could, however, misread lgbtq=no (which would be a valid tag for the majority of places since they don't specifically cater to lgbtq people) as "this place does not admit lgbtq people" (which is probably/hopefully true only for a very small number of places). Good point. One could say "OSM Tags are for machines, so consult the docs", but I think tags should be readable to humans (one you learn to speak OSM-tag-ese). You don't want "lgbtq=only" since usually an lgbtq bar *will* admit > straight people Yes they will (plus some members of the LGBTQ community are straight, or in relationship with straight people đ). Wiki says diet:vegan=only means "All *or almost all* products are vegan", so lgbtq=only is consistent with that, but it seems too confusing, and doesn't read well, so I think it's not the best. Perhaps "lgbtq=designated" That's close, *but* sounds like an official body has designed the place as a LGBTQ venue, rather than someone choosing to run a business that way. It could be the best contender. -- Rory ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
I've seen & wondered about the "gay" classification on places before. When going on holidays & checking accommodation / travel guides for options, you often see a number of hotels / motels which are listed as "gay friendly". Does this mean only gays stay there / a majority of guests are straight but gays are also welcome or what? To me, with a young family, it's always meant that we're not staying at that place! Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
This is not my area of expertise. But Iâve noticed that a number of bars that are designed for gay men in the USA have a sign on the door with a crossed out âWâ. It looks like a no smoking sign but with a capital W instead of a cigarette. This means âno women allowed.â My wife tells me this is still legal in the USA?! There are also barber shops that exclude women (though these shops usually serve straight, gay and bi Men without distinctions) So I believe this would be verifiable information. It would also be safe to tag women=no for bars or clubs even in countries where LGBT activity is illegal or persecuted. Men=designated could be used for bars that are mainly for gay, bi (and trans?) men, but which do not prohibit women explicitly. I havenât heard of bars with a âno menâ sign, but âwomen=designatedâ could work for bars catering to lesbian, bisexual )and trans?) women? On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 6:11 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > I've seen & wondered about the "gay" classification on places before. > > When going on holidays & checking accommodation / travel guides for > options, you often see a number of hotels / motels which are listed as "gay > friendly". Does this mean only gays stay there / a majority of guests are > straight but gays are also welcome or what? > > To me, with a young family, it's always meant that we're not staying at > that place! > > Thanks > > Graeme > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:12 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > I've seen & wondered about the "gay" classification on places before. > > When going on holidays & checking accommodation / travel guides for > options, you often see a number of hotels / motels which are listed as "gay > friendly". Does this mean only gays stay there / a majority of guests are > straight but gays are also welcome or what? > > To me, with a young family, it's always meant that we're not staying at > that place! > In Oklahoma at least, I find "gay friendly" to be essentially a worthless identifier or someplace that's a little more social than you would normally expect from such a business (but tends to attract and cater to a *much* older crowd, and I'm 36). Everyplace is gay friendly, and it's not hurting your family. Those who are catering specifically to the gay community tend to be nightclubs and vacation resorts at this point, in which case, it's not family friendly because it's gay, it's not family friendly because kids aren't allowed on the property because the liquor and/or gambling laws either severely restrict where kids can go or ban them outright in the first place. However, I can say if I were in someplace more hostile (such as India) or illegal (like, say, the UAE), and traveling with my boyfriend, I do know that I'd probably avoid someplace that openly advertised itself as gay friendly just because that would be an unwanted police and/or violence magnet, and if we did seek out such an establishment it would be exclusively under the guidance of a local we know and trust extremely well (so, at least in the above example regions, we'd just not try since we don't know anybody in either place). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 6:56 PM Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > This is not my area of expertise. But Iâve noticed that a number of bars > that are designed for gay men in the USA have a sign on the door with a > crossed out âWâ. It looks like a no smoking sign but with a capital W > instead of a cigarette. > I've literally never heard of this. Usually GLBT friendly establishments in the US and Canada have a rainbow flag out front or are overtly campy, or in San Francisco's Castro District, *extremely both*. And in both countries, you don't have to be a specific gender or orientation to go in there. Heck, they'll even generally serve homophobes so long as they're not disruptive or otherwise harshing the atmosphere: Money talks, BS walks. > This means âno women allowed.â My wife tells me this is still legal in the > USA?! It's not, 14th Amendment (1868), equal protection clause. A century later, we spent a decade re-litigating this in the streets because apparently it wasn't made clear the first time around. > There are also barber shops that exclude women (though these shops usually > serve straight, gay and bi Men without distinctions) > There are gender-specific barber/hairdresser shops, but that isn't a restriction on who they will serve but a description of the specialty of what hairstyles they can turn out. A men's barber shop will serve women, but if they don't want a haircut that's popular among men, the result is probably going to be on par with something they could get cheaper going to a beauty school's open house (since that could be very well be the most recently they've done such a cut, however long ago that was for the barber) or not really possible at all (at least in the US, a men's barber shop, especially older ones, might be so basic, particularly in small towns, as to lack shampoo sinks and hair dryers). Likewise, womens barbers don't turn away guys, but getting a guy's cut there is not going to be ideal (my mom would take me to her hairdresser as a kid sometimes when the whole family needed haircuts, and they'd totally crush it out of the park with my mom and sister's hair, but totally butcher mine; but I have full confidence that if I wanted the same cut as my sister or mom, they'd have got it right). > So I believe this would be verifiable information. It would also be safe > to tag women=no for bars or clubs even in countries where LGBT activity is > illegal or persecuted. Men=designated could be used for bars that are > mainly for gay, bi (and trans?) men, but which do not prohibit women > explicitly. > > I havenât heard of bars with a âno menâ sign, but âwomen=designatedâ could > work for bars catering to lesbian, bisexual )and trans?) women? Pretty sure access tagging is a legal restriction/designation, not a specialty one. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 09:56, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > This is not my area of expertise. Or mine! :-) > So I believe this would be verifiable information. It would also be safe > to tag women=no for bars or clubs even in countries where LGBT activity is > illegal or persecuted. Men=designated could be used for bars that are > mainly for gay, bi (and trans?) men, but which do not prohibit women > explicitly. > > I havenât heard of bars with a âno menâ sign, but âwomen=designatedâ could > work for bars catering to lesbian, bisexual )and trans?) women? > How are "gentlemen's" clubs or "ladies only" gyms tagged? Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
I agree with Frederick here, lgbtq=yes looks like the access tags.
This discussion also reminds me the motorcycle-friendly thread not so long ago.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly
Yves
Le 23 octobre 2018 20:27:04 GMT+02:00, Rory McCann a
Ă©crit :
>Hi all,
>
>I'd like to improve the state of mapping/tagging for LGBTQ topics, and
>I'd like feedback.
>
>There is an existing "gay" tag[1], which is used 650 times[2]. But it's
>a little restrictive. And it also suggested "gay:transgender=yes" which
>is just plain wrong.
>
>So to start off, I'm suggest a simple "lgbtq=yes" tag to
>mean "this thing is a LGBTQ thing". I've intermittently used
>"lgbt"/"lgbtq" tag in the past, but I think "lgbtq" ("lesbian gay
>bi trans queer") would probably be a little better.
>
>So "amenity=bar lgbtq=yes" is what is commonly called a "gay bar".
>"shop=books lgbtq=yes" is a LGBTQ book shop, "leisure=sauna lgbtq=yes"
>is a gay sauna, etc. We can expand the tagging later, or just use
>"lgbtq:(men|women|trans|cis|bears|...)=(yes|no)" straight (đ) away.
>
>For trans issues, there's the whole topic of toilet tagging (unisex,
>etc), which is tagged separately, and maybe there's some good way to
>tag
>"informed consent" for medical clinics?
>
>*When* to add a lgbtq=yes tag can be hard to know. In some places a gay
>bar can be easily identified by a prominent rainbow flag. Some cultures
>are less accepting, so bars might not be so blatant (I've seen this in
>the EU). Using the common OSM rules of "local knowledge", people within
>the local LGBTQ community are probably the best place to make a final
>call.
>
>Like many things in OSM, most of the work will be the actual mapping.
>It's best to tag areas your familiar with, IME online directories can
>often have lots of facilities that no longer exist. At some point I
>want
>to create a custom map based on this data (a la the now dead
>OpenQueerMap).
>
>Thoughts? Comments? Feedback?
>
>--
>Rory
>
>[1]
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Visitors_orientation#for_gay.3D.2A
>[2] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=gay
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
Thanks for pointing to it. It was also reminding of this earlier discussion on how to tag the "friendly" attitude of a place, but I couldn't find it back.
"Biker friendly" is difficult to grasp because it's a mindset more than a fact, and we don't map places for their mindset but for tangible and independently-verifiable services and infrastructure which are relevant and, if not unique, at least differenciating.
For example, there is the tag social_facility:for="" https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility:for.
It's a place where people not only are in mindset to help other people but actually deliver verifiable services and may have specific infrastructure.
So, a question may be what are services or infrastructure specific to these bars that are not found elsewhere (or not so frequently found elsewhere).
On 10/25/18, 07:54 Yves wrote:
I agree with Frederick here, lgbtq=yes looks like the access tags.This discussion also reminds me the motorcycle-friendly thread not so long ago.https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendlyYvesLe 23 octobre 2018 20:27:04 GMT+02:00, Rory McCann a Ă©crit :
Hi all,I'd like to improve the state of mapping/tagging for LGBTQ topics, andI'd like feedback.There is an existing "gay" tag[1], which is used 650 times[2]. But it'sa little restrictive. And it also suggested "gay:transgender=yes" whichis just plain wrong.So to start off, I'm suggest a simple "lgbtq=yes" tag tomean "this thing is a LGBTQ thing". I've intermittently used"lgbt"/"lgbtq" tag in the past, but I think "lgbtq" ("lesbian gaybi trans queer") would probably be a little better.So "amenity=bar lgbtq=yes" is what is commonly called a "gay bar"."shop=books lgbtq=yes" is a LGBTQ book shop, "leisure=sauna lgbtq=yes"is a gay sauna, etc. We can expand the tagging later, or just use"lgbtq:(men|women|trans|cis|bears|...)=(yes|no)" straight (đ) away.For trans issues, there's the whole topic of toilet tagging (unisex,etc), which is tagged separately, and maybe there's some good way to tag"informed consent" for medical clinics?*When* to add a lgbtq=yes tag can be hard to know. In some places a gaybar can be easily identified by a prominent rainbow flag. Some culturesare less accepting, so bars might not be so blatant (I've seen this inthe EU). Using the common OSM rules of "local knowledge", people withinthe local LGBTQ community are probably the best place to make a final call.Like many things in OSM, most of the work will be the actual mapping.It's best to tag areas your familiar with, IME online directories canoften have lots of facilities that no longer exist. At some point I wantto create a custom map based on this data (a la the now dead OpenQueerMap).Thoughts? Comments? Feedback?--Rory[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Visitors_orientation#for_gay.3D.2A[2] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=gayTagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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Re: [Tagging] Out of the bars and onto the map: An lgbtq:*=* tagging scheme?
I'm not suggesting tagging "gay friendly" which is too subjective, and, due to PR, might be less informative now. On 24/10/2018 23:10, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: When going on holidays & checking accommodation / travel guides for options, you often see a number of hotels / motels which are listed as "gay friendly". Does this mean only gays stay there / a majority of guests are straight but gays are also welcome or what? "gay friendly" is supposed to mean that the other guests are less likely to be openly homophobic, that the staff are not going to have a problem with LGBÂč people, You might say "Pfft, but that's everywhere! It's 2018". Things are better in many places yes, but we're not 100% there yet. I recommend the talk "All the little things", by Irish drag queen Panti ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIhsv18lrqY ), which opens with: "I am 45 years old and I have never once unselfconsciously held hands with a lover in public. To me, with a young family, it's always meant that we're not staying at that place! Are you sure all your kids are cisgendered & heterosexual? đ A noisy dance club might not be great for 5 y.o.'s, but a restaurant? I'd think that's fine. I think looking at the type of venue (guest house or night club) is probably more informative than does or doesn't say "gay friendly". On 25/10/2018 09:31, OSMDoudou wrote: > So, a question may be what are services or infrastructure specific to > these bars that are not found elsewhere (or not so frequently found > elsewhere). "LGBTQ bars" might not technically offer much different from boring cishet bars, but "LGBTQ bar" is definitely a different category of bar, and is nearly always clear cut and unambiguous. -- Rory Âč There's no guarantee that "gay friendly" places are totally trans/queer/etc accepting ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
