Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
Am 23/lug/2014 um 21:43 schrieb Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr: Have you looked at taginfo ? http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=aerodrome#overview aerodrome=international is already in use, it is even the first in quantity (157) +1, I think the wiki page should become a proposal and current usage should be reflected (if there are some values that are in use but currently discouraged this should also be mentioned for example) cheers, Martin___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
Am 24/lug/2014 um 00:55 schrieb Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: aerodrome=international would mean a public airport/aerodrome that primarily enables regular citizens to hire flights directly to other countries, and to achieve this it would need some supporting infrastructure (immigration, customs, etc.). what about cargo? test flights / research / runways on manufacturing plant? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
It is kind of a proposal, but it isn't in the sense that I don't want to be
responsible for it.
I know little beyond the basics of aerodrome, and currently do not have the
interest of researching this much further.
If anyone thinks this should be a proposal, and know enough about
aerodromes to do so, feel free to make one.
I want this issue to progress to the point of having at least the basics
well-defined, that's why I'm pushing it by editing the wiki.
Note that I'm doing so while making the wiki page look clearly draft-y
and marked as a {{Stub}}, so others feel invited to edit it or add comments.
2014-07-24 5:38 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
Am 23/lug/2014 um 21:43 schrieb Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr:
Have you looked at taginfo ?
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=aerodrome#overview
aerodrome=international is already in use, it is even the first in
quantity (157)
+1, I think the wiki page should become a proposal and current usage
should be reflected (if there are some values that are in use but currently
discouraged this should also be mentioned for example)
cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
I'm not familiar with them, maybe they'd just be instances of aerodrome=private if the user needs to own a plane or be the pilot, or if permission to fly is given not by a flight authority but by a third party such as the aerodrome owner. Or maybe these would be new values for aerodrome=*. On 24 Jul 2014 05:58, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 24/lug/2014 um 00:55 schrieb Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: aerodrome=international would mean a public airport/aerodrome that primarily enables regular citizens to hire flights directly to other countries, and to achieve this it would need some supporting infrastructure (immigration, customs, etc.). what about cargo? test flights / research / runways on manufacturing plant? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
2014-07-24 14:11 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: If anyone thinks this should be a proposal, and know enough about aerodromes to do so, feel free to make one. thing is that right now it looks as if this was state of the art, i.e. an established scheme, what it surely isn't, also compared to actually used values for this key. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
Martin, Sorry, I should have talked a little about the history behind this before. Initially aeroway=aerodrome used the key type=* to further classify it's type. Nowadays, the key type=* is infamous because it is the de facto way of especifying relation's types, and therefore shouldn't be used for anything else. Consequently, people started moving away from using type=* to using either aerodrome:type=* or aerodrome=*. But type=* it still used much more than both aerodrome=* and aerodrome:type=* together. Probably it was used on earlier imports of airport data. Below you can see values of the key type=* when used together with aeroway=aerodrome around the globe: public: 2349 multipolygon: 284 military: 281 civil: 232 private: 173 military/public: 68 public;military: 38 non-public: 37 destination_sign: 30 joint (civil and military): 25 civil / military: 22 joint: 13 public/military: 13 civilian: 10 public / military: 10 airstrip: 8 To make this list shorter, I removed from this list all values that appeared less than 6 times, and merged the values when all that changed was some letter's case or white. I am working on the key's aerodrome in the hope it can substitute the key type=* on classifying an aerodrome, because it conflicts with relations like multipolygon (as shown above). I will also include this information in the wiki page Key:aerodrome 2014-07-24 11:23 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-07-24 14:11 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: If anyone thinks this should be a proposal, and know enough about aerodromes to do so, feel free to make one. thing is that right now it looks as if this was state of the art, i.e. an established scheme, what it surely isn't, also compared to actually used values for this key. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
2014-07-24 19:04 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: Martin, Sorry, I should have talked a little about the history behind this before. Initially aeroway=aerodrome used the key type=* to further classify it's type. This looks like 90% of the values describe if it's a military or a non-military aerodrome. I'd rather replace this with military=yes/no, public=yes/no tags, private=yes/no tags, agricultural=yes/no, scientific=yes/no and other tags. Putting all this in one aerodrome tag seems unnecessary to me. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
The problem with type=* is that you have no clue on what it relates... When an object combines for example amenity=* and building=*, type is related to which one ? Most OSM tags are hierarchical: aeroway = aerodrome aerodrome = * When investigating taginfo, also check WHERE unusual values are used. I'm using overpass API to load these object in JOSM... check who created them. Most of the time, it is only a couple of contributors, and many times this is related to some import. -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
2014-07-24 19:04 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I am working on the key's aerodrome in the hope it can substitute the key type=* on classifying an aerodrome, because it conflicts with relations like multipolygon (as shown above). I will also include this information in the wiki page Key:aerodrome John, that's perfectly fine, what I intended to say was: there was a redirect from the Key:aerodrome page which you have changed to a key page with definitions that looked like generally agreed on established definitions, but what they are (also according to your own statements and comments) is work in progress on a proposal. I have for now reverted the page to the redirect (your draft is still available in the history and be used for a proposal) so we can continue discussion to consolidate this and come to a proposal. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
I updated the wiki page Key:aerodrome[1]. One of the issues that are still not decided is how to tag international airports. Should we use international_flights=yes ? Or could we use something like flights_range=international/domestic/regional ? [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:aerodrome 2014-07-08 16:07 GMT-03:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: There already exists a key military=*. Now that I took a better look, it seems that there already is a key for aerodromes exclusively used in military operations: military=airfield http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:military. The questions remains as to how to mark an aerodrome that is not used exclusively in military operations (e.g. a public use airport with a militar base). 2014-07-06 19:29 GMT-03:00 Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net: On 7/6/14 3:41 PM, Fernando Trebien wrote: How about using aerodrome=* to express how the aerodrome is used by civilians and then add military=yes when the airport is also used for military operations? you could potentially broaden it a bit, with military=yes being the generic i have no more data tag: military=reserve military=nationalguard military=militia military=air_force military=army military=navy (in the US national guard is not automatically redundant with militia; NY state for example has militia units that are distinct from the guard units.) richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
Have you looked at taginfo ? http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=aerodrome#overview aerodrome=international is already in use, it is even the first in quantity (157) FYI, the OSM-FR rendering is using it, as well as aerodrome=airport/airport/continental/military/airfied 2014-07-23 19:56 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I updated the wiki page Key:aerodrome[1]. One of the issues that are still not decided is how to tag international airports. Should we use international_flights=yes ? Or could we use something like flights_range=international/domestic/regional ? [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:aerodrome 2014-07-08 16:07 GMT-03:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: There already exists a key military=*. Now that I took a better look, it seems that there already is a key for aerodromes exclusively used in military operations: military=airfield http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:military. The questions remains as to how to mark an aerodrome that is not used exclusively in military operations (e.g. a public use airport with a militar base). 2014-07-06 19:29 GMT-03:00 Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net: On 7/6/14 3:41 PM, Fernando Trebien wrote: How about using aerodrome=* to express how the aerodrome is used by civilians and then add military=yes when the airport is also used for military operations? you could potentially broaden it a bit, with military=yes being the generic i have no more data tag: military=reserve military=nationalguard military=militia military=air_force military=army military=navy (in the US national guard is not automatically redundant with militia; NY state for example has militia units that are distinct from the guard units.) richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
I'm aware of aerodrome=international. To be honest I'm not too against it The issue with it is that AFAIK international doesn't imply public use, which can be an important information. I'm not sure I know what aerodrome=airfield means. Could you explain? Something like aerodrome=airport can be ambiguous, as mentioned in the beginning of this thread. 2014-07-23 16:43 GMT-03:00 Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr: Have you looked at taginfo ? http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=aerodrome#overview aerodrome=international is already in use, it is even the first in quantity (157) FYI, the OSM-FR rendering is using it, as well as aerodrome=airport/airport/continental/military/airfied 2014-07-23 19:56 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I updated the wiki page Key:aerodrome[1]. One of the issues that are still not decided is how to tag international airports. Should we use international_flights=yes ? Or could we use something like flights_range=international/domestic/regional ? [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:aerodrome 2014-07-08 16:07 GMT-03:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: There already exists a key military=*. Now that I took a better look, it seems that there already is a key for aerodromes exclusively used in military operations: military=airfield http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:military. The questions remains as to how to mark an aerodrome that is not used exclusively in military operations (e.g. a public use airport with a militar base). 2014-07-06 19:29 GMT-03:00 Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net: On 7/6/14 3:41 PM, Fernando Trebien wrote: How about using aerodrome=* to express how the aerodrome is used by civilians and then add military=yes when the airport is also used for military operations? you could potentially broaden it a bit, with military=yes being the generic i have no more data tag: military=reserve military=nationalguard military=militia military=air_force military=army military=navy (in the US national guard is not automatically redundant with militia; NY state for example has militia units that are distinct from the guard units.) richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
I believe that a non public use aerodrome would require either aerodrome=private/military or at least access=private, so aerodrome=international would mean a public airport/aerodrome that primarily enables regular citizens to hire flights directly to other countries, and to achieve this it would need some supporting infrastructure (immigration, customs, etc.). As usual in OSM, the aerodrome may be used for other things (say, military operations and private flights). But if its primary function is for commercial international flights, then it would be classified as aerodrome=international. On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 6:28 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: I'm aware of aerodrome=international. To be honest I'm not too against it The issue with it is that AFAIK international doesn't imply public use, which can be an important information. I'm not sure I know what aerodrome=airfield means. Could you explain? Something like aerodrome=airport can be ambiguous, as mentioned in the beginning of this thread. 2014-07-23 16:43 GMT-03:00 Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr: Have you looked at taginfo ? http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=aerodrome#overview aerodrome=international is already in use, it is even the first in quantity (157) FYI, the OSM-FR rendering is using it, as well as aerodrome=airport/airport/continental/military/airfied 2014-07-23 19:56 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I updated the wiki page Key:aerodrome[1]. One of the issues that are still not decided is how to tag international airports. Should we use international_flights=yes ? Or could we use something like flights_range=international/domestic/regional ? [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:aerodrome 2014-07-08 16:07 GMT-03:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: There already exists a key military=*. Now that I took a better look, it seems that there already is a key for aerodromes exclusively used in military operations: military=airfield. The questions remains as to how to mark an aerodrome that is not used exclusively in military operations (e.g. a public use airport with a militar base). 2014-07-06 19:29 GMT-03:00 Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net: On 7/6/14 3:41 PM, Fernando Trebien wrote: How about using aerodrome=* to express how the aerodrome is used by civilians and then add military=yes when the airport is also used for military operations? you could potentially broaden it a bit, with military=yes being the generic i have no more data tag: military=reserve military=nationalguard military=militia military=air_force military=army military=navy (in the US national guard is not automatically redundant with militia; NY state for example has militia units that are distinct from the guard units.) richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
I know of at least two such in the Nashville, TN, USA. One is Nashville International Airport, with passenger, air freight, and general aviation usage, as well as a military compound. The other is a former military base in Smyrna, TN, still containing a small military compound, but mostly now used for general aviation and chartered flights. On July 3, 2014 11:00:45 AM CDT, John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 9:46 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I don't like this way of mapping. There might be some overlaps, what if one aerodrome has a military and a public part? Agreed -- I know at least one that is. __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
On 7/6/14 1:55 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: I know of at least two such in the Nashville, TN, USA. One is Nashville International Airport, with passenger, air freight, and general aviation usage, as well as a military compound. The other is a former military base in Smyrna, TN, still containing a small military compound, but mostly now used for general aviation and chartered flights. On July 3, 2014 11:00:45 AM CDT, John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 9:46 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I don't like this way of mapping. There might be some overlaps, what if one aerodrome has a military and a public part? Agreed -- I know at least one that is. __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
How about using aerodrome=* to express how the aerodrome is used by civilians and then add military=yes when the airport is also used for military operations? On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Ole Nielsen on-...@xs4all.nl wrote: Also happens outside the US. In Denmark I know of civil airports sharing the runway with the airforce. Once experienced an aborted approach during a domestic flight because two F16 fighters suddenly wanted to land. Ole On 06/07/2014 20:04, Richard Welty wrote: no need for lots of anecdotes. it is very, very common for National Guard and Reserve units in the US to share airports with civilian services. i could name a bunch, but i don't think it's necessary, we've all seen the military facilities while looking out the windows while our flight is taxiing. richard On 7/6/14 1:55 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: I know of at least two such in the Nashville, TN, USA. One is Nashville International Airport, with passenger, air freight, and general aviation usage, as well as a military compound. The other is a former military base in Smyrna, TN, still containing a small military compound, but mostly now used for general aviation and chartered flights. On July 3, 2014 11:00:45 AM CDT, John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 9:46 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I don't like this way of mapping. There might be some overlaps, what if one aerodrome has a military and a public part? Agreed -- I know at least one that is. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
On 7/6/14 3:41 PM, Fernando Trebien wrote: How about using aerodrome=* to express how the aerodrome is used by civilians and then add military=yes when the airport is also used for military operations? you could potentially broaden it a bit, with military=yes being the generic i have no more data tag: military=reserve military=nationalguard military=militia military=air_force military=army military=navy (in the US national guard is not automatically redundant with militia; NY state for example has militia units that are distinct from the guard units.) richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
One issue with the tagging schema that you specified is that it doesn't make it clear whether the aerodrome is a public airport. Actually, I found out there is a better definition for what I was calling simply airport or public airport. It's public use aerodrome. According to [1], Some States define a public use aerodrome as one that is available for use by the general public without a requirement for prior approval of the owner or operator I do agree using a separate tag to define whether an airport supports international flights seems appropriate. This way we could also take into consideration the alternatively international airports i.e. airports that only receive international flights when the original ones can't. I read in wikipedia[2] there are some airports that do have international flights, but are limited to some close countries, and are therefore called regional. Perhaps we could treat this case in this same key. [1]: http://www.iaopa.org/doc/icao-annex-survey.pdf [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_airport#Regional_airport 2014-07-02 17:46 GMT-03:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: I don't like this way of mapping. There might be some overlaps, what if one aerodrome has a military and a public part? I would rather use separate tags like: aeroway=aerodrome access=private/public landuse=military international_flights=yes/no ... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
2014-07-03 13:44 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: This way we could also take into consideration the alternatively international airports i.e. airports that only receive international flights when the original ones can't. I read in wikipedia[2] there are some airports that do have international flights, but are limited to some close countries, and are therefore called regional. Perhaps we could treat this case in this same key. this essentially can be condensed to length of runway, because this implies bigger airplanes, and bigger airplanes tend to fly longer distances. If there is a small airfield close to the border, you might have international (regional) flights also with very small planes. Anyone remember Mathias Rust ;-) http://socks-studio.com/img/blog/mathias-rust-04.jpg cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: this essentially can be condensed to length of runway, because this implies bigger airplanes, and bigger airplanes tend to fly longer distances. Not quite. There are airports with runways having 2100 meters or more that aren't international, while some with 2000 meters are (for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corumb%C3%A1_International_Airport) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
On Jul 3, 2014, at 6:40 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: this essentially can be condensed to length of runway, because this implies bigger airplanes, and bigger airplanes tend to fly longer distances. If there is a small airfield close to the border, you might have international (regional) flights also with very small planes. Anyone remember Mathias Rust ;-) http://socks-studio.com/img/blog/mathias-rust-04.jpg cheers, Martin It is my understanding that an international airport is one that has the physical facilities for dealing with customs and passport control and currently has those facilities staffed. This is independent of runway length, over what distances flights to the airport might be or even if it currently has scheduled international flights. For airports that currently have scheduled international flights it is obvious: It must be an international airport. For others it might be a little difficult to determine without a close in person survey if a small airport has facilities for dealing with customs and passport control. But there are lots of things in OSM that can only be verified by such surveys. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-07-02 18:32 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: From previous discussions I think I remember that it isn't clear what an airport is. Most if not all our aerodromes are probably airports, and also the helipads are probably airports according to the wikipedia definition of airport. This may help: the Brazilian National Civil Aviation Agency of Brazil (ANAC) defines an airport as a public aerodrome provided with facilities to support aircraft operations and the embarking and disembarking of passengers and cargo. [1] So in Brazil an aerodrome without public passenger terminals would be considered a regular aerodrome, but not an airport. What does an airport make international? If there once has flewn an aircraft into another country? Or must there be a scheduled flight into another country? Or a certain amount of such scheduled flights? From Wikipedia [2]: Airports with international flights have customs and immigration facilities. However, as some countries have agreements that allow travel between them without customs and immigration, such facilities are not a definitive need for an international airport. So, if the aerodrome does have such facilities, it is definitely an international airport, even if it is not operating international flights at some particular point in time. Otherwise, the definition would depend (in my opinion) on existing advertisement of regular public flights to other countries. In Brazil this is easier to determine because official data sources do specify which airports are ready and authorized to operate international flights. But even if Brazil's situation is quite specific in the world, I think that international, domestic and regional airports can be rendered in the same way. But some visual distinction for the other types of airports (specially airfields, airstrips and private aerodromes). In essence, I think people need to be able to distinguish at least major from minor types of airports. Most people are only interested in using major airports. That doesn't mean that minor airports should not be rendered or not mapped, but only not given so much importance on general-purpose rendered maps and search engines. is private about the ownership? Have a look at Fraport AG, the operator of Frankfurt Airport (biggest German airport) and traded at Frankfurt Stock Exchange. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraport it is both, publicly and privately owned (majority is public ownership currently), would the Frankfurt Airport become private in OSM if the government decided to sell a bigger share of it? airport=international;private? I believe private in this context means not having regular flights that can be hired by formal means. [3] Obviously one can always hire a pilot, but this would be an informal arrangement which is probably not directly regulated by government agencies. Previous discussions ended up with the conclusion that it would be better to have the details mapped (e.g. number and size/shape of runways, encompassing polygon (!) for the airport itself) so that you could elaborate this information to estimate the importance. Unfortunately it seems quite expensive to do this on the fly, hence the missing progress in airport rendering at low zoom scales so far. That's why I agree with you that some basic tags could help the renderer (e.g. osm-carto) to achieve better rendering. Except for runway width at zoom level 14 on Mapnik/OSM-Carto, I do believe that current rendering is quite adequate, except for minor airports at low zoom levels, which are perhaps misleadingly evident (e.g.: an airstrip with no infrastructure in the middle of nowhere would be rendered the same way as a huge international airport in a metropolis). Here are the definitions that I assumed when reviewing the airports in my region in Brazil: - international: defined as international by ANAC [1] and officially so (other countries probably require their own definitions on this) - domestic: operating flights within the country but across states - regional: operating flights only within a state (probably doesn't make sense in countries with small area) - airsport: clubs (usually not public in the sense that anybody can fly) where aircraft is used mostly for entertainment, and sometimes for informal teaching - airfield: not having sufficient infrastructure (e.g. not having a paved runway) - airstrip: not having ANY infrastructure besides the runway itself - military: used primarly for military operations - private: not fitting any of the previous definitions, usually owned by a company and often offering specialized flying services that are not intended for transportation (such as agricultural operations) I believe that public in this context would be a generic descriptor encompassing international, domestic and regional aerodromes (much like surface=paved encompasses various types of
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
2014-07-03 16:57 GMT+02:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: Except for runway width at zoom level 14 on Mapnik/OSM-Carto, you can draw the runways as areas which I'd recommend because it solves all width rendering issues. - military: used primarly for military operations I'd make this used exclusively for military and government operations cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 12:20 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: you can draw the runways as areas which I'd recommend because it solves all width rendering issues. I have actually mapped the runway area in many cases and thought of eliminating the line representing the axis of the runway because of this rendering problem (so, it would be mapping for the renderer), but as I've seen that line mapped in other major airports in the world (such as Munich's), I was a bit unsure if I should remove it. I'll probably ask the OSM-Carto guys to change the default width. But in this case, major airports (such as, again, Munich's) would need to have the runway mapped also as an area (but many of them currently don't). -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 9:46 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I don't like this way of mapping. There might be some overlaps, what if one aerodrome has a military and a public part? Agreed -- I know at least one that is. __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
Am 03.07.2014 17:42, schrieb Fernando Trebien: On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 12:20 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: you can draw the runways as areas which I'd recommend because it solves all width rendering issues. I have actually mapped the runway area in many cases and thought of eliminating the line representing the axis of the runway because of this rendering problem (so, it would be mapping for the renderer), but as I've seen that line mapped in other major airports in the world (such as Munich's), I was a bit unsure if I should remove it. I'll probably ask the OSM-Carto guys to change the default width. But in this case, major airports (such as, again, Munich's) would need to have the runway mapped also as an area (but many of them currently don't). Well, routing - rendering. If there is already/still a way(line) representing the area, we need to use area:highway (area:aeroway) otherwise we have several objects representing How about rendering width in general ? Something I am waiting for for some time now. To come back on topic: How is the issue solved with harbors ? aerodrome=* might be a tag for importance of the aerodrome or for a funtion like fright or international passagers but I will not work for both. Better introduce some more tags each with a clear purpose and definition. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
On 03.07.2014 21:55, Fernando Trebien wrote: Is there anyone routing over runways today? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_Airport;-) Cheers, Michael. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
I'd say an international airport has customs stations. On Jul 2, 2014 12:06 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-07-02 18:32 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: An airport is a special kind of aerodrome, and I think it is poorly documented on the wiki how to tag it. From previous discussions I think I remember that it isn't clear what an airport is. Most if not all our aerodromes are probably airports, and also the helipads are probably airports according to the wikipedia definition of airport. Looking at taginfo, it becomes clear that international aerodromes can be tagged with aerodrome=international. I assume most (if not all) international aerodromes are public airports. What does an airport make international? If there once has flewn an aircraft into another country? Or must there be a scheduled flight into another country? Or a certain amount of such scheduled flights? Private aerodromes (common inside some farms in Brazil) would be aerodrome=private, and military aerodromes would be aerodrome=military. So far so good. is private about the ownership? Have a look at Fraport AG, the operator of Frankfurt Airport (biggest German airport) and traded at Frankfurt Stock Exchange. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraport it is both, publicly and privately owned (majority is public ownership currently), would the Frankfurt Airport become private in OSM if the government decided to sell a bigger share of it? airport=international;private? Previous discussions ended up with the conclusion that it would be better to have the details mapped (e.g. number and size/shape of runways, encompassing polygon (!) for the airport itself) so that you could elaborate this information to estimate the importance. Unfortunately it seems quite expensive to do this on the fly, hence the missing progress in airport rendering at low zoom scales so far. That's why I agree with you that some basic tags could help the renderer (e.g. osm-carto) to achieve better rendering. Even a very simple metric (airports bigger than x and mapped as an area) might already improve the current rendering situation. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
I agree with using the key aerodrome to specify further the type of the aerodrome (instead of aerodrome:type=* or type=*). Related to this: An airport is a special kind of aerodrome, and I think it is poorly documented on the wiki how to tag it. Looking at taginfo, it becomes clear that international aerodromes can be tagged with aerodrome=international. I assume most (if not all) international aerodromes are public airports. Private aerodromes (common inside some farms in Brazil) would be aerodrome=private, and military aerodromes would be aerodrome=military. So far so good. It isn't as clear how to tag a normal public *airport.* Is there some consensus on this? I suppose a domestic airport could be tagged with aerodrome=domestic aerodrome=public could also work, as long as it becomes clear that aerodrome=international is also a public airport. There are other classifications of aerodromes present on taginfo that are not documented. 2014-06-30 12:54 GMT-03:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: Hello, I've recently reviewed some aerodromes in southern Brazil and, following some advice in the wiki [1], I've replaced the type tag with an aerodrome tag [2]. Do you agree that this is correct? Should we update tagging recommendations for aerodromes [3] and aeroways [4] in the wiki? [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type [2] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/aerodrome [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Daerodrome [4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Aeroways -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
2014-07-02 18:32 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: An airport is a special kind of aerodrome, and I think it is poorly documented on the wiki how to tag it. From previous discussions I think I remember that it isn't clear what an airport is. Most if not all our aerodromes are probably airports, and also the helipads are probably airports according to the wikipedia definition of airport. Looking at taginfo, it becomes clear that international aerodromes can be tagged with aerodrome=international. I assume most (if not all) international aerodromes are public airports. What does an airport make international? If there once has flewn an aircraft into another country? Or must there be a scheduled flight into another country? Or a certain amount of such scheduled flights? Private aerodromes (common inside some farms in Brazil) would be aerodrome=private, and military aerodromes would be aerodrome=military. So far so good. is private about the ownership? Have a look at Fraport AG, the operator of Frankfurt Airport (biggest German airport) and traded at Frankfurt Stock Exchange. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraport it is both, publicly and privately owned (majority is public ownership currently), would the Frankfurt Airport become private in OSM if the government decided to sell a bigger share of it? airport=international;private? Previous discussions ended up with the conclusion that it would be better to have the details mapped (e.g. number and size/shape of runways, encompassing polygon (!) for the airport itself) so that you could elaborate this information to estimate the importance. Unfortunately it seems quite expensive to do this on the fly, hence the missing progress in airport rendering at low zoom scales so far. That's why I agree with you that some basic tags could help the renderer (e.g. osm-carto) to achieve better rendering. Even a very simple metric (airports bigger than x and mapped as an area) might already improve the current rendering situation. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
Interesting questions! The way I see it, we don't need to get into the details of who owns it (whether it is a company or the government), but classify according to it's use. When I say airport, I mean the kind of aerodrome the average person can use, usually with some stores and airflight companies. We could use aerodrome=domestic for normal airports instead of aerodrome=public, to avoid the need to consider who owns it. Most international airports in Brazil actually have internacional in it's official name. It means they have regular international flights. There are some normal airports that may receive international flights when *needed*, but they aren't known as international and I don't think they should be tagged as such (though they are classified as international alternative by the government). In my POV, an aerodrome with aerodrome=private would be an aerodrome used exclusively for transporting goods or people related to a company, or or privately owned by a big farm. I think ideally these shouldn't be tagged as aerodrome=international, even if it's the case. I believe aerodrome=military is self-explanatory, i.e. used for military operations and/or research. I'm not sure about other types of aerodrome=*. I don't know that much about this. I'm sure there can be other cases that don't easily fit with what I mentioned. 2014-07-02 14:05 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-07-02 18:32 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: An airport is a special kind of aerodrome, and I think it is poorly documented on the wiki how to tag it. From previous discussions I think I remember that it isn't clear what an airport is. Most if not all our aerodromes are probably airports, and also the helipads are probably airports according to the wikipedia definition of airport. Looking at taginfo, it becomes clear that international aerodromes can be tagged with aerodrome=international. I assume most (if not all) international aerodromes are public airports. What does an airport make international? If there once has flewn an aircraft into another country? Or must there be a scheduled flight into another country? Or a certain amount of such scheduled flights? Private aerodromes (common inside some farms in Brazil) would be aerodrome=private, and military aerodromes would be aerodrome=military. So far so good. is private about the ownership? Have a look at Fraport AG, the operator of Frankfurt Airport (biggest German airport) and traded at Frankfurt Stock Exchange. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraport it is both, publicly and privately owned (majority is public ownership currently), would the Frankfurt Airport become private in OSM if the government decided to sell a bigger share of it? airport=international;private? Previous discussions ended up with the conclusion that it would be better to have the details mapped (e.g. number and size/shape of runways, encompassing polygon (!) for the airport itself) so that you could elaborate this information to estimate the importance. Unfortunately it seems quite expensive to do this on the fly, hence the missing progress in airport rendering at low zoom scales so far. That's why I agree with you that some basic tags could help the renderer (e.g. osm-carto) to achieve better rendering. Even a very simple metric (airports bigger than x and mapped as an area) might already improve the current rendering situation. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Aerodrome types
I don't like this way of mapping. There might be some overlaps, what if one aerodrome has a military and a public part? I would rather use separate tags like: aeroway=aerodrome access=private/public landuse=military international_flights=yes/no ... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Aerodrome types
Hello, I've recently reviewed some aerodromes in southern Brazil and, following some advice in the wiki [1], I've replaced the type tag with an aerodrome tag [2]. Do you agree that this is correct? Should we update tagging recommendations for aerodromes [3] and aeroways [4] in the wiki? [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type [2] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/aerodrome [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Daerodrome [4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Aeroways -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
