Re: [Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags (was: Re: How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway)
On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 at 23:57, Andy Townsend wrote: > In terms of access rights*, I've always thought that (in England and > Wales**) "yes" and "designated" mean both "a legal right to access", as > opposed to "permissive" that means "you can go there, but that right can be > removed by the landowner whenever they wish". What would you say the > difference between "yes" and "designated" are? > > Best Regards, > > Andy > Need to point out for others reading this than I am in England, and influenced by what I believe was likely the original intent of these tags, that is mapping of the "English/Welsh, rights of way" I've always treated " foot|bicycle|horse=yes, as a means of showing I confidently believe with evidence available that access is allowed. Done with regard to the defaults for tag (eg don't add when highway=footway) Designated & Permissive allow me to tag in more detail if evidence is available to support tags I use ''designated" for where there is a demonstrable "right of access" eg Specific recognisable signage, online usable data, etc, which demonstrates a legislative or contractual, rights of way. I use "permissive" for the common British situation of ways being provided on private land, and where the owner has displayed signage to inform the public that the way is "Permissive" and not an English/Welsh "Public Right of Way". (This should block the private way becoming a "right of way" through continuous use.) Issues I have are separating "legal right of access" and the ability to actually use the way. A common problem with British/Welsh rights of way which do not have to be managed to to allow all foot users Jass ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags (was: Re: How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway)
Oops, M1-9, not M1-8. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags (was: Re: How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway)
This is USA-specific in the example I now offer, though notable nonetheless in this context: there are routes, such as United States Bicycle Routes, which after they are Approved (by AASHTO), are, in a legal sense, "designated." However, some states have an aggressive signage program (MUTCD M1-8) to "route mark" these (with signs) and other states only "lightly sign" these "designated" routes. Nonetheless, there ARE route=* (*=bicycle in this case) relations, as the routes ARE designated, yet for a particular segment of the route, it may be a great many kilometers or miles before a sign is seen. And I think Nate means "cycle track" (not tract), though "track" can be a value for the highway=* key if a "trail, road or track" is what is being denoted, then again so can any of path, road, service, unclassified (etc.) be used for values of highway=*. We might as well say what we mean, mean what we say and get it all out there! On Apr 29, 2024, at 6:15 PM, Natfoot wrote: > But if a trail, road, or cycle tract does not have route markers for use then > no route=* even if designated. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags (was: Re: How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway)
On Apr 29, 2024, at 6:15 PM, Natfoot wrote: > But if a trail, road, or cycle tract does not have route markers for use then > no route=* even if designated. > -natfoot I'm nodding my head so far at what I see here. I appreciate Natfoot's reminder about routes: we're not exactly talking about routes here and now, though there is some overlap that happens in people's minds with routes and infrastructure, sometimes naming, so it's good to say these things out loud once in a while so people understand we've had a lot of conversations about these topics. It's good to bubble it all back up and out again as we come to agreement. (Like here and now). I agree "signposted" either implies or means (legally) "designated for that mode-of-travel," in the colloquial usage of the word "designated" which my dictionary matches here with "officially assigned a specified status." I do a fair bit of bicycle routing: bicycle=yes is not needed on highway=cycleway, but could disambiguate whether bicycle traffic is allowed on a parallel roadway, while bicycle=yes is not the same as bicycle=designated: regardless of how you think you might route through here as a cyclist, the bicycle=designated, for example, highway=cycleway means "signs, paint, law indicate cyclists should or must use this infrastructure." The bicycle=yes tag means it is allowed, nothing more than that. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags (was: Re: How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway)
But if a trail, road, or cycle tract does not have route markers for use then no route=* even if designated. -natfoot On Mon, Apr 29, 2024, 17:33 Andrew Harvey wrote: > > > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 09:04, stevea wrote: > >> In my mind "designated" means "for this infrastructure / mode-of-travel >> pair, DO use this." Like legislatively or because a sign says so and >> quotes a local ordinance or traffic code statute. "We built this, use >> it." (Say, for your own safety and/or comfort). >> >> With "yes" you certainly can use this infrastructure for that particular >> mode-of-travel. Though, nothing more than that. >> > > I usually go along with was it designed, built, intended or signposted for > use by this mode? If so then it's designated. For example a road was > designed, built and intended for use by cars, motor_vehicle=designated but > if there's no sidewalk you can legally and physically walk on the road so > foot=yes. However some roads like a living street / shared zone, are > signposted for pedestrians to use, so we'd tag foot=designated. > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags (was: Re: How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway)
On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 09:04, stevea wrote: > In my mind "designated" means "for this infrastructure / mode-of-travel > pair, DO use this." Like legislatively or because a sign says so and > quotes a local ordinance or traffic code statute. "We built this, use > it." (Say, for your own safety and/or comfort). > > With "yes" you certainly can use this infrastructure for that particular > mode-of-travel. Though, nothing more than that. > I usually go along with was it designed, built, intended or signposted for use by this mode? If so then it's designated. For example a road was designed, built and intended for use by cars, motor_vehicle=designated but if there's no sidewalk you can legally and physically walk on the road so foot=yes. However some roads like a living street / shared zone, are signposted for pedestrians to use, so we'd tag foot=designated. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags (was: Re: How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway)
And "should" or "must" (use this infrastructure with this mode-of-travel) more-or-less = "designated." Finally, "can" more-or-less = "yes." That's a lot of quotes, but I think you get the drift. > On Apr 29, 2024, at 4:02 PM, stevea wrote: > > In my mind "designated" means "for this infrastructure / mode-of-travel pair, > DO use this." Like legislatively or because a sign says so and quotes a > local ordinance or traffic code statute. "We built this, use it." (Say, for > your own safety and/or comfort). > > With "yes" you certainly can use this infrastructure for that particular > mode-of-travel. Though, nothing more than that. > > I hope this helps. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags (was: Re: How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway)
In my mind "designated" means "for this infrastructure / mode-of-travel pair, DO use this." Like legislatively or because a sign says so and quotes a local ordinance or traffic code statute. "We built this, use it." (Say, for your own safety and/or comfort). With "yes" you certainly can use this infrastructure for that particular mode-of-travel. Though, nothing more than that. I hope this helps. > On Apr 29, 2024, at 3:54 PM, Andy Townsend wrote: > > On 29/04/2024 16:22, Jass Kurn wrote: >> >> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 at 10:03, Peter Neale via Tagging >> wrote: >> It is "bicycles=yes" and not "bicycles=designated" because, for a bridleway >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway >> "Cyclists also have a right, unless the local authority makes orders to the >> contrary ...The local authority is not obliged to ensure suitability for >> bicycles, unlike for foot or horse users."# >> >> Disagree with that, I always map a Public Bridleway as bicycle=designated. >> Cyclists have a statutory right to use these ways, which should be meaning >> behind the designated. The fact there is no requirement to maintain a Public >> Bridleway to a standard acceptable to all cyclists, does not impact on the >> right to use the way. It's a secondary matter that does not fall under >> "access". Or looking at this in another way. The fact a Public Footpath does >> not have to meet standards that would allow ALL pedestrians to use them, but >> does not mean a public footpath should be tagged foot=yes > > In terms of access rights*, I've always thought that (in England and Wales**) > "yes" and "designated" mean both "a legal right to access", as opposed to > "permissive" that means "you can go there, but that right can be removed by > the landowner whenever they wish". What would you say the difference between > "yes" and "designated" are? > Best Regards, > Andy > * ignoring the use of "designated" on "highway=path" etc. where it is used to > say that a path is really a footway or a cycleway. > ** and also ignoring countries such as e.g. Scotland, Sweden, Finland et al > where you have a legal right of access on foot across most areas, with some > caveats. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags (was: Re: How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway)
On 29/04/2024 16:22, Jass Kurn wrote: On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 at 10:03, Peter Neale via Tagging wrote: It is "bicycles=yes" and not "bicycles=designated" because, for a bridleway https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway "Cyclists also have a right, unless the local authority makes orders to the contrary ...The local authority is not obliged to ensure suitability for bicycles, unlike for foot or horse users."# Disagree with that, I always map a Public Bridleway as bicycle=designated. Cyclists have a statutory right to use these ways, which should be meaning behind the designated. The fact there is no requirement to maintain a Public Bridleway to a standard acceptable to all cyclists, does not impact on the right to use the way. It's a secondary matter that does not fall under "access". Or looking at this in another way. The fact a Public Footpath does not have to meet standards that would allow ALL pedestrians to use them, but does not mean a public footpath should be tagged foot=yes In terms of access rights*, I've always thought that (in England and Wales**) "yes" and "designated" mean both "a legal right to access", as opposed to "permissive" that means "you can go there, but that right can be removed by the landowner whenever they wish". What would you say the difference between "yes" and "designated" are? Best Regards, Andy * ignoring the use of "designated" on "highway=path" etc. where it is used to say that a path is really a footway or a cycleway. ** and also ignoring countries such as e.g. Scotland, Sweden, Finland et al where you have a legal right of access on foot across most areas, with some caveats. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
