Re: [Tagging] Marking climbing proposal as "in use"

[Anders Fougner]

Den 29.01.2016 15.19, skrev Chris Hill:

On 29/01/16 10:17, Anders Fougner wrote:

Den 29.01.2016 10.47, skrev Tom Pfeifer:

Den 29.01.2016 02.21, skrev Mike Thompson:
What one person may aid, another may free (I am using "free 
climbing" in the US sense  [1]).

> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing

that wikipedia page is quite messed up by an recent edit war about 
the use

of "free climbing" in different parts of the world, the current version
is historically wrong. 

Certainly, it doesn't match the historical use in my country either.

Den 29.01.2016 10.47, skrev Tom Pfeifer:
You might even add a converted grade (although the conversion isn't 
unique since 5.13 might be anything between 7c+ and 8b):

No! Conversion of grades is subjective and can be done by the
data consumer. The grade should be in the native system of the
area. We also do not convert maxspeed=15mph into km/h tags, since
that can be computed.

tom 
Sorry, I wasn't specific enough here; I meant if there is an official 
converted grade.
In my area the guidebooks usually have two grades for each route; 
Norwegian grades and French grades. In such cases, when there is an 
"official conversion" (but doesn't really match the conversion tables 
on e.g. the wiki-link above [1]), I think both can be added.
Adding data from guidebooks is not acceptable, they are copyright. 
This has always been my concern with climbing routes, ground surveying 
can show locations, but when I used to climb all grades and route 
details came from a copyright guidebook. A mapper who has made the 
climb and assessed the grade personally can add this, but will this 
normally be the source?
Sure, one would need to check the copyright before taking *any* info 
from the guidebook (name, grade, etc.).


I am one of the editors of the local guidebook, and the main editor 
asked me to put the crag info into OSM.

I haven't mapped any routes in OSM though, just crag info (so far).

Anders

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Re: [Tagging] Marking climbing proposal as "in use"

[Chris Hill]

On 29/01/16 10:17, Anders Fougner wrote:

Den 29.01.2016 10.47, skrev Tom Pfeifer:

Den 29.01.2016 02.21, skrev Mike Thompson:
What one person may aid, another may free (I am using "free 
climbing" in the US sense  [1]).

> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing

that wikipedia page is quite messed up by an recent edit war about 
the use

of "free climbing" in different parts of the world, the current version
is historically wrong. 

Certainly, it doesn't match the historical use in my country either.

Den 29.01.2016 10.47, skrev Tom Pfeifer:
You might even add a converted grade (although the conversion isn't 
unique since 5.13 might be anything between 7c+ and 8b):

No! Conversion of grades is subjective and can be done by the
data consumer. The grade should be in the native system of the
area. We also do not convert maxspeed=15mph into km/h tags, since
that can be computed.

tom 
Sorry, I wasn't specific enough here; I meant if there is an official 
converted grade.
In my area the guidebooks usually have two grades for each route; 
Norwegian grades and French grades. In such cases, when there is an 
"official conversion" (but doesn't really match the conversion tables 
on e.g. the wiki-link above [1]), I think both can be added.
Adding data from guidebooks is not acceptable, they are copyright. This 
has always been my concern with climbing routes, ground surveying can 
show locations, but when I used to climb all grades and route details 
came from a copyright guidebook. A mapper who has made the climb and 
assessed the grade personally can add this, but will this normally be 
the source?


--
Cheers, Chris (chillly)


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Re: [Tagging] Marking climbing proposal as "in use"

[Richard]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 12:19:29AM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> Richard wrote on 2016/01/28 16:36:
> >Hi,
> >
> >http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Climbing
> >
> >was sitting around and evolving for 8 years. If there are no
> >objections I would promote its status to "in use".
> 
> Well it is in use indeed, and the tag page has already further
> developed than the proposal page above.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dclimbing
> Taginfo=8449
> 
> The tag page says "in use" already, the proposal page could be
> archived.

that would be a good idea, however sport=climbing currently lacks the
details how to map routes so I would merge that over.

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Marking climbing proposal as "in use"

[Anders Fougner]

Den 29.01.2016 10.47, skrev Tom Pfeifer:

Den 29.01.2016 02.21, skrev Mike Thompson:
What one person may aid, another may free (I am using "free 
climbing" in the US sense  [1]).

> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing

that wikipedia page is quite messed up by an recent edit war about the 
use

of "free climbing" in different parts of the world, the current version
is historically wrong. 

Certainly, it doesn't match the historical use in my country either.

Den 29.01.2016 10.47, skrev Tom Pfeifer:
You might even add a converted grade (although the conversion isn't 
unique since 5.13 might be anything between 7c+ and 8b):

No! Conversion of grades is subjective and can be done by the
data consumer. The grade should be in the native system of the
area. We also do not convert maxspeed=15mph into km/h tags, since
that can be computed.

tom 
Sorry, I wasn't specific enough here; I meant if there is an official 
converted grade.
In my area the guidebooks usually have two grades for each route; 
Norwegian grades and French grades. In such cases, when there is an 
"official conversion" (but doesn't really match the conversion tables on 
e.g. the wiki-link above [1]), I think both can be added.
Then the data consumer can choose which one to use: If you want to use 
the official French grade, do it. If you want to do the conversion 
yourself, try converting from the Norwegian grade.


For a non-subjective conversion such as mph to km/h, conversion can be 
up to the data consumer (the result will anyway be the same).


Anders

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Re: [Tagging] Marking climbing proposal as "in use"

[Anders Fougner]

Den 29.01.2016 02.21, skrev Mike Thompson:



> Need rating (difficulty) tag for aid climbing[5]

Should not be difficult:
Climbing styles
  climbing:aided=[yes|no]
  climbing:grade:aided:[min|max|mean]=*
or so.

What one person may aid, another may free (I am using "free climbing" 
in the US sense  [1]).  A typical route rating would be "5.9/A3 or 
5.13" (in the US) meaning if you would free the entire route you would 
encounter 5.13 climbing, but it could be divided into some 5.9 free 
climbing and some A3 aid climbing.

Then maybe you could use one tag for each of those grades:
climbing:grade:aided = A3
climbing:grade: yds_class  = 5.9/A3
climbing:grade:yds_class[max]= 5.13

...or something like that.
You might even add a converted grade (although the conversion isn't 
unique since 5.13 might be anything between 7c+ and 8b):

climbing:grade:french= 5c/A3
climbing:grade:french[max] = 8a+

Anders

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing


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Re: [Tagging] Marking climbing proposal as "in use"

[Anders Fougner]

Check the "Talk" page. 
Apparently, some people believe that free climbing is what Americans call free 
solo, and some of them say that's how it's interpreted in all of Europe.
That's not what we think in Norway and Italy, though...both located in Europe :)

Anders
-- 
anders.foug...@gmail.com
+47 97158863

Sent from my Commodore 64

Den 29. januar 2016 17.34.00 CET, skrev Mike Thompson :
>On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 2:47 AM, Tom Pfeifer 
>wrote:
>
>> Anders Fougner wrote on 2016/01/29 10:06:
>>
>>> Den 29.01.2016 02.21, skrev Mike Thompson:
>>>
 What one person may aid, another may free (I am using "free
>climbing" in
 the US sense  [1]).

>>> >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing
>>
>> that wikipedia page is quite messed up by an recent edit war about
>the use
>> of "free climbing" in different parts of the world, the current
>version
>> is historically wrong.
>
>The US usage seems to be in alignment with common usage in the US
>climbing
>community. I am interested in what aspect in particular is "messed up"
>as I
>am interested in how non US climbing communities use the term.
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Marking climbing proposal as "in use"

[Mike Thompson]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 2:47 AM, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

> Anders Fougner wrote on 2016/01/29 10:06:
>
>> Den 29.01.2016 02.21, skrev Mike Thompson:
>>
>>> What one person may aid, another may free (I am using "free climbing" in
>>> the US sense  [1]).
>>>
>> >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing
>
> that wikipedia page is quite messed up by an recent edit war about the use
> of "free climbing" in different parts of the world, the current version
> is historically wrong.

The US usage seems to be in alignment with common usage in the US climbing
community. I am interested in what aspect in particular is "messed up" as I
am interested in how non US climbing communities use the term.

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Marking climbing proposal as "in use"

[Mike Thompson]

I am not opposed as I think it is a good starting point, but I have these
comments:

"Crags" are only small areas
My understanding from 15 years in this activity is that a "crag" is a small
area as explained here [1]. At least in the US, no one would refer to El
Cap [2] as a "crag" yet it is something that should be mapped if one is
mapping things related to climbing.

Climbing areas, including crags, are hierarchical in organization and
suitable for representation as a relation
For example, in Colorado, US, the Shelf Road[3] climbing area, consists of
a number of "sub" areas, including Sand Gulch[4], Sand Gulch also consists
of further sub areas, and these areas contain individual routes.

"climbing:bolted" should include "mixed"
Some routes have some bolts for protection, but also require placement of
gear (cams, pitons).

Need tag to indicate if pitons are allowed
(they damage the rock)

Need rating (difficulty) tag for aid climbing[5]


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_climbing_terms#crag
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Capitan
[3] https://www.mountainproject.com/v/shelf-road/105744267
[4] https://www.mountainproject.com/v/sand-gulch/105744971
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aid_climbing#Grading

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 8:36 AM, Richard  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Climbing
>
> was sitting around and evolving for 8 years. If there are no
> objections I would promote its status to "in use".
>
> Afaics it has never attracted significant controversy, does not
> trigger any technical difficulties, there is demand for it and
> is well used considering that it is a domain relevant only for
> a minor fraction of mappers.
>
> Richard
>
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Re: [Tagging] Marking climbing proposal as "in use"

[Tom Pfeifer]

Richard wrote on 2016/01/28 16:36:

Hi,

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Climbing

was sitting around and evolving for 8 years. If there are no
objections I would promote its status to "in use".


Well it is in use indeed, and the tag page has already further
developed than the proposal page above.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dclimbing
Taginfo=8449

The tag page says "in use" already, the proposal page could be
archived.


Afaics it has never attracted significant controversy, does not
trigger any technical difficulties, there is demand for it and
is well used considering that it is a domain relevant only for
a minor fraction of mappers.


A very important fraction, as they can survey from the summit! :-)

Mike Thompson wrote on 2016/01/28 17:49:
> Climbing areas, including crags, are hierarchical in organization and 
suitable for representation as a relation

Interesting idea, might become tricky to realise. Next question,
does it help? Would it just be a collection, like 'all museums in Paris',
which I can express as a query already?

> "climbing:bolted" should include "mixed"
> Some routes have some bolts for protection, but also require placement of 
gear (cams, pitons).

That should be no problem and is better than the "average bolt distance in 
meters"
documented on the tag page (only used a few dozen times, should be a separate 
key)

> Need tag to indicate if pitons are allowed (they damage the rock)

There was also "dry tooling" proposed 3 days ago on the climbing-tag talk page.

> Need rating (difficulty) tag for aid climbing[5]

Should not be difficult:
Climbing styles
  climbing:aided=[yes|no]
  climbing:grade:aided:[min|max|mean]=*
or so.

tom


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Re: [Tagging] Marking climbing proposal as "in use"

[Mike Thompson]

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

>
>> Mike Thompson wrote on 2016/01/28 17:49:
> > Climbing areas, including crags, are hierarchical in organization and
> suitable for representation as a relation
>
> Interesting idea, might become tricky to realise. Next question,
> does it help? Would it just be a collection, like 'all museums in Paris',
> which I can express as a query already?

This is not the same as "all museums in Paris" as there are no
administrative boundaries that typically define a climbing "area."  These
are just conventions that local climbers have developed over the years.  In
some cases they have been subsequently signed by the land manager (e.g. in
the U.S. the BLM or National Park Service), but their "boundary" is not
delimited. There might be a single sign that says "Trail to xyz Climbing
Area"

>
>
> > Need rating (difficulty) tag for aid climbing[5]
>
> Should not be difficult:
> Climbing styles
>   climbing:aided=[yes|no]
>   climbing:grade:aided:[min|max|mean]=*
> or so.

What one person may aid, another may free (I am using "free climbing" in
the US sense  [1]).  A typical route rating would be "5.9/A3 or 5.13" (in
the US) meaning if you would free the entire route you would encounter 5.13
climbing, but it could be divided into some 5.9 free climbing and some A3
aid climbing.

Mike

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing

>
>
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