[Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Lanxana .]

Hi!
I would like to know how to indicate that a school offers several
educational levels. I've been seeing the isced: level tag, which is that I
think to use, but I have a question about how to separate multiple values.

I have looked in taginfo and approximately in 15000 cases the semicolon (;)
is used, in 3000 the comma (,) and in 1000 cases the hyphen (-). It would
seem therefore that the general criteria is to use the semicolon.

It really is that? Is there no risk of causing errors when converting data
to another format?

Another option that I had valued, and of which I have not found use, is to
add the level in the label itself, thus being:

isced: level: 1 = yes + isced: level: 2 = yes, for a center that offers
levels 1 and 2.

What's your opinion?

Thanks!
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 at 10:29, Lanxana .  wrote:

>
> I have looked in taginfo and approximately in 15000 cases the semicolon
> (;) is used, in 3000 the comma (,) and in 1000 cases the hyphen (-). It
> would seem therefore that the general criteria is to use the semicolon.
>

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator

One thing that page doesn't explicitly mention is that the semi-colon is a
problem in URLs because
it can be a valid, meaningful character in some URLs.

It really is that? Is there no risk of causing errors when converting data
> to another format?
>

See link above.

Another option that I had valued, and of which I have not found use, is to
> add the level in the label itself, thus being:
>
> isced: level: 1 = yes + isced: level: 2 = yes, for a center that offers
> levels 1 and 2.
>

See link above.

What's your opinion?
>

Ask any two people on this list their opinion on any matter and you will
get THREE opinions.
At least.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Andrew Harvey]

It could be cultural but I've always understood that the hyphen (-), ie.
1-3 would mean it covers 1, 2 and 3, while if you say 1;3 or 1,3 then it
would cover 1 and 3 only, excluding two 2.

So I think it depends, if you want a range use "-" if you don't want a
range use a ";" or ",".

I've tagged with isced:level many times and have commonly used a "-" to
indicate a range, eg. 1-2.

On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 at 19:29, Lanxana .  wrote:

> Hi!
> I would like to know how to indicate that a school offers several
> educational levels. I've been seeing the isced: level tag, which is that I
> think to use, but I have a question about how to separate multiple values.
>
> I have looked in taginfo and approximately in 15000 cases the semicolon
> (;) is used, in 3000 the comma (,) and in 1000 cases the hyphen (-). It
> would seem therefore that the general criteria is to use the semicolon.
>
> It really is that? Is there no risk of causing errors when converting data
> to another format?
>
> Another option that I had valued, and of which I have not found use, is to
> add the level in the label itself, thus being:
>
> isced: level: 1 = yes + isced: level: 2 = yes, for a center that offers
> levels 1 and 2.
>
> What's your opinion?
>
> Thanks!
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Jo]

Use semicolons, for a range use 4;5;6. Be explicit and keep with the
standard value separator.

On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 2:17 PM Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> It could be cultural but I've always understood that the hyphen (-), ie.
> 1-3 would mean it covers 1, 2 and 3, while if you say 1;3 or 1,3 then it
> would cover 1 and 3 only, excluding two 2.
>
> So I think it depends, if you want a range use "-" if you don't want a
> range use a ";" or ",".
>
> I've tagged with isced:level many times and have commonly used a "-" to
> indicate a range, eg. 1-2.
>
> On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 at 19:29, Lanxana .  wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>> I would like to know how to indicate that a school offers several
>> educational levels. I've been seeing the isced: level tag, which is that I
>> think to use, but I have a question about how to separate multiple values.
>>
>> I have looked in taginfo and approximately in 15000 cases the semicolon
>> (;) is used, in 3000 the comma (,) and in 1000 cases the hyphen (-). It
>> would seem therefore that the general criteria is to use the semicolon.
>>
>> It really is that? Is there no risk of causing errors when converting
>> data to another format?
>>
>> Another option that I had valued, and of which I have not found use, is
>> to add the level in the label itself, thus being:
>>
>> isced: level: 1 = yes + isced: level: 2 = yes, for a center that offers
>> levels 1 and 2.
>>
>> What's your opinion?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4. Aug 2019, at 14:14, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> It could be cultural but I've always understood that the hyphen (-), ie. 1-3 
> would mean it covers 1, 2 and 3, while if you say 1;3 or 1,3 then it would 
> cover 1 and 3 only, excluding two 2.


This is also my general understanding although there are situations where the 
meaning can differ, e.g. housenumber = 1-3 can mean either 1;2;3 or 1;3 
(depending on the local numbering scheme for this road).

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 at 15:43, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> This is also my general understanding although there are situations where
> the meaning can differ, e.g. housenumber = 1-3 can mean either 1;2;3 or 1;3
> (depending on the local numbering scheme for this road).
>

There are several different views on this.  Mine would be 1-3 means 1;2;3
and 1,3 means 1;3.  Oh,
and 1,2,3 is an alternative to 1-3 but more cumbersome.  However, this is
OSM where a foolish
consistency is never the hobgoblin of our little minds.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4. Aug 2019, at 16:58, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> There are several different views on this.  Mine would be 1-3 means 1;2;3 and 
> 1,3 means 1;3.  Oh,
> and 1,2,3 is an alternative to 1-3 but more cumbersome.  However, this is OSM 
> where a foolish
> consistency is never the hobgoblin of our little minds.


if these were housenumbers, what about 1/3 ? 

There might also be 1/1, 1/2 and 1/4, etc., or it could mean 1;3 (1 and 3). The 
latter is quite common in Italy, where every door or gate gets its number, but 
I have also seen the former, where a housenumber has been split into several 
housenumbers.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

yes, I guess the usual case of splits in systems with consecutive numbers 
running down the road is made with letters, because 1B is clearer than 1/2, but 
in reality you can find both.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 at 07:14, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> if these were housenumbers, what about 1/3 ?
>

In Australia, at least, that would mean Unit (Room / Suite / Office etc) 1
(House / Street) Number 3; 3/4 would be Unit 3 Number 4 etc

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[ET Commands]

Ask any two people on this list their opinion on any matter and you will
get THREE opinions.
At least.

--
Paul



+1000


Mark



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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Andrew Harvey]

On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 at 08:36, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> In Australia, at least, that would mean Unit (Room / Suite / Office etc) 1
> (House / Street) Number 3; 3/4 would be Unit 3 Number 4 etc
>

Which would be more explicit if mapped as addr:unit=3 + addr:housenumber=4.
Then downsteam consumers can decide to render as either 3/4 or Unit 3, 4...
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Warin]

On 05/08/19 11:46, ET Commands wrote:



Ask any two people on this list their opinion on any matter and you will
get THREE opinions.
At least.

--
Paul



+1000


And if you read the wiki you can add another 3 opinions to that.

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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Simon Poole]

Am 04.08.2019 um 13:50 schrieb Paul Allen:
> On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 at 10:29, Lanxana .  > wrote:
>
>
> I have looked in taginfo and approximately in 15000 cases the
> semicolon (;) is used, in 3000 the comma (,) and in 1000 cases the
> hyphen (-). It would seem therefore that the general criteria is
> to use the semicolon.
>
>
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator

The page does not represent community consensus, it is an intermediate
state of an old edit war.

That it doesn't make sense should be clear from a) the fact that there
are a lot of attribute tags that use semi-colons separated values
without any issues, b) that in the mean time we have a lot of tags that
use far more complicated structured values which work just fine and
nobody writes pamphlets with lots of bold and capital letters claiming
that they can't possibly work.

If there should have been a conclusion from the discussion, it should
have been that use of lists in a specific tag should be documented,
including what the semantics are.

Simon

>
> One thing that page doesn't explicitly mention is that the semi-colon
> is a problem in URLs because
> it can be a valid, meaningful character in some URLs.
>
> It really is that? Is there no risk of causing errors when
> converting data to another format?
>
>
> See link above.
>
> Another option that I had valued, and of which I have not found
> use, is to add the level in the label itself, thus being:
>
> isced: level: 1 = yes + isced: level: 2 = yes, for a center that
> offers levels 1 and 2.
>
>
> See link above.
>
> What's your opinion?
>
>
> Ask any two people on this list their opinion on any matter and you
> will get THREE opinions.
> At least.
>
> -- 
> Paul
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 at 04:09, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> And if you read the wiki you can add another 3 opinions to that.
>

I just edited the wiki.  Make that four.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Lanxana .]

Hi!

so, after reading the different opinions, I understand that I can use the
semicolon (;) or boolean values (yes/no), and both systems would be
correct, is it? And, in any case, it should be documented in the wiki.

And I understand too, that it was a war of editions about the use of
semicolon like a value separator, so my question is now that if the current
version of the page it's ok or not, because I'd like complete its
translation into Spanish.

Thanks!

>

Libre
de virus. www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Andrew Harvey]

I'll still be using a range with a -. so 0-2 to mean from 0 to 2 inclusive.
I've used it all over my state for schools together with the grades key. To
me it's a lot clearer and simpler than the semicolon or multiple yes/no
values.

On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 16:53, Lanxana .  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> so, after reading the different opinions, I understand that I can use the
> semicolon (;) or boolean values (yes/no), and both systems would be
> correct, is it? And, in any case, it should be documented in the wiki.
>
> And I understand too, that it was a war of editions about the use of
> semicolon like a value separator, so my question is now that if the current
> version of the page it's ok or not, because I'd like complete its
> translation into Spanish.
>
> Thanks!
>
>>
>
> 
>  Libre
> de virus. www.avast.com
> 
> <#m_-315500903686677547_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Jo]

Wonderful, thank you for your contribution to standardising, by doing your
own thing anyway. Really great.

Jo



On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 3:46 PM Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> I'll still be using a range with a -. so 0-2 to mean from 0 to 2
> inclusive. I've used it all over my state for schools together with the
> grades key. To me it's a lot clearer and simpler than the semicolon or
> multiple yes/no values.
>
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 16:53, Lanxana .  wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> so, after reading the different opinions, I understand that I can use the
>> semicolon (;) or boolean values (yes/no), and both systems would be
>> correct, is it? And, in any case, it should be documented in the wiki.
>>
>> And I understand too, that it was a war of editions about the use of
>> semicolon like a value separator, so my question is now that if the current
>> version of the page it's ok or not, because I'd like complete its
>> translation into Spanish.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>>
>>
>> 
>>  Libre
>> de virus. www.avast.com
>> 
>> <#m_-8517338411723742137_m_-315500903686677547_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Andrew Harvey]

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/grades#values overwhelmingly uses
the dash to show a range, and to a lesser degree the comma to list multiple
values. In fact this is what is suggested at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:grades. To use a semicolon in this
context or something like grades:1=yes, grades:2=yes etc. goes against that
common practice.

End of the day, it's easy for a computer to read "0-2" and "0 to 2" and
"0,1,2" and "0;1;2" as all the same, so really mappers should be able to
use what makes the most sense for them or what's less error prone and
simpler, as they all should be easily interpreted by the downstream data
consumer.

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 04:53, Jo  wrote:

> Wonderful, thank you for your contribution to standardising, by doing your
> own thing anyway. Really great.
>
> Jo
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 3:46 PM Andrew Harvey 
> wrote:
>
>> I'll still be using a range with a -. so 0-2 to mean from 0 to 2
>> inclusive. I've used it all over my state for schools together with the
>> grades key. To me it's a lot clearer and simpler than the semicolon or
>> multiple yes/no values.
>>
>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 16:53, Lanxana .  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> so, after reading the different opinions, I understand that I can use
>>> the semicolon (;) or boolean values (yes/no), and both systems would be
>>> correct, is it? And, in any case, it should be documented in the wiki.
>>>
>>> And I understand too, that it was a war of editions about the use of
>>> semicolon like a value separator, so my question is now that if the current
>>> version of the page it's ok or not, because I'd like complete its
>>> translation into Spanish.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>

>>>
>>> 
>>>  Libre
>>> de virus. www.avast.com
>>> 
>>> <#m_-2274713851610012818_m_-8517338411723742137_m_-315500903686677547_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Aug 2019, at 00:06, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> End of the day, it's easy for a computer to read "0-2" and "0 to 2" and 
> "0,1,2" and "0;1;2" as all the same,


they are not the same. 0-2 could also be the same as 0;1A;1B;2

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Andrew Davidson]

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 8:22 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> they are not the same. 0-2 could also be the same as 0;1A;1B;2
>
>
Is there a ISCED level 1A?
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Aug 2019, at 00:54, Andrew Davidson  wrote:
> 
> Is there a ISCED level 1A?


maybe not, or not currently (they could introduce them at some point), what I 
wanted to say is that you need to know all possible values to make sense of a 
range, while you need no knowledge about possible values to get the information 
from a list.


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values in isced:level

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 09:09, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> what I wanted to say is that you need to know all possible values to make
> sense of a range, while you need no knowledge about possible values to get
> the information from a list.
>

I can see what you're getting at, but under that concept, when we enter
opening hours as Mo-Fr 09:00-17:00, we should actually be entering
Mo=yes;Tu=yes;We=yes ... 09:00=yes;10:00=yes etc (or should that be
09:00=yes;09:15=yes;09:30=yes ... - no, of course it shouldn't be!).

For some situations, a range is perfectly acceptable, & saying that a
school is 0-12 is one of them.

Thanks

Graeme
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