[Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator
Hi all, (Cross-posting to tagging and talk-gb-london.) I've been looking at type=public_transport public_transport=stop_area relations in Transport for London. *First question: operator. *Should this be "Transport for London" or the actual operator? TfL owns and retains branding control, but technically it's franchised to London Overground Rail Operations (LOROL) and KeolisAmey Docklands Ltd., who are the current operators. However, the franchise may change every few years. The current values used for operator are: - Transport for London - London Underground - London Overground *I would propose that these should all be changed to "operator=Transport for London" *(irrespective of overground vs. DLR; however, obviously not where the operator is a different entity, such as Network Rail, etc)*. However, at least London Underground should be changed for Transport for London.* *Second question: network. *The wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/London_public_transport_tagging_scheme doesn't say much about "network", and these values are in use: *- London Underground* *- National Rail* *- Network Rail* *- London Overground* - TfL - District and Hammersmith & City Lines) *I would propose to retain the first four, but to change the last two to London Underground/Overground/DLR as appropriate. *Not sure why that list doesn't have DLR, maybe it wasn't picked up by my query. (I have a spreadsheet with the OSM data, in case anybody wants to see the details, generated from this data http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/hiB.) If people are in agreement, I'll also amend the wiki page. I'll make some of the proposed changes as well, but if anybody fancies joining in, that would be most welcome! Bjoern ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator
On 14 July 2016 at 01:45, Bjoern Hassler wrote: > > First question: operator. Should this be "Transport for London" or the > actual operator? TfL owns and retains branding control, but technically it's > franchised to London Overground Rail Operations (LOROL) and KeolisAmey > Docklands Ltd., who are the current operators. However, the franchise may > change every few years. See: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator#Owner_or_brand_name_aren.27t_necessarily_the_operator You should tag operator=* with the actual operator, which in your case would be either London Overground Rail Operations or KeolisAmey Docklands Ltd. This is despite the fact that the franchise may change every few years: if and when it does, the values of operator=* should be updated. I would recommend also tagging "brand=Transport for London". Refer to the brand=* wiki documentation; in particular, the distinction mentioned in said documentation between name=*, brand=* and operator=*. > > Second question: network. The wiki page > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/London_public_transport_tagging_scheme > doesn't say much about "network", and these values are in use: > > - London Underground > - National Rail > - Network Rail > - London Overground > - TfL > - District and Hammersmith & City Lines) > > I would propose to retain the first four, but to change the last two to > London Underground/Overground/DLR as appropriate. Not sure why that list > doesn't have DLR, maybe it wasn't picked up by my query. > The exact values to use in network=* are generally region specific, so this point can be discussed in talk-gb-london without involving us. (: --K ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator
Bjoern Hassler wrote: > Second question: network. The wiki page > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/London_public_transport_tagging_scheme > doesn't say much about "network", and these values are in use: > > - London Underground > - National Rail > - Network Rail > - London Overground > - TfL > - District and Hammersmith & City Lines > > I would propose to retain the first four Network Rail isn't a network, it's the company (FSVO company) that owns and operates Britain's rail infrastructure. Anything tagged network=Network Rail should probably be network=National Rail. There is a slight factual impropriety as London Overground is properly part of the National Rail network; it's little different to a strongly branded PTE-run franchise like Merseyrail. But how you resolve this without getting ridiculously trainspottery I don't know. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Relations-in-Transport-for-London-network-and-operator-tp5878259p5878280.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator
Hi all, hi Kieran, hi Richard, Another question: Looking at the stations, (1) both "line" and "tube" are in use to designate lines (e.g. "Piccaddilly;Bakerloo"). Only one of them tends to be filled. I assume this should all be "line"? (2) Also, I assume the ";" as a separator is correct? I.e. Piccaddilly;Bakerloo rather than Piccaddilly,Bakerloo ? (3) I've also noticed "station=subway" vs. "subway=yes". Any thoughts on that? Kieran, thanks for the suggestion. At the moment, brand isn't used on any station, but it could be added. See: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator#Owner_or_brand_name_aren.27t_necessarily_the_operator > You should tag operator=* with the actual operator, which in your case > would be either London Overground Rail Operations or KeolisAmey > Docklands Ltd. This is despite the fact that the franchise may change > every few years: if and when it does, the values of operator=* should > be updated. > Thanks for that too - at the moment, the correct operator isn't used a single time. However, "London Overground" is used, and the old DLR operator "Serco" in a few places. In terms of "duck" tagging (and future proofing), would it not be better to just stick with shortened names, "London Overground" and "DLR"? Richard, that makes sense. Btw. operator=National Rail does not occur, but operator=Network Rail does, so that side is correct. Many thanks! Bjoern ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator
On 14 July 2016 at 12:24, Bjoern Hassler wrote: > (1) both "line" and "tube" are in use to designate lines (e.g. > "Piccaddilly;Bakerloo"). Only one of them tends to be filled. I assume this > should all be "line"? I'd actually tag this as the name=* of the route_master relation. Open to hearing better suggestions though. > (2) Also, I assume the ";" as a separator is correct? I.e. > Piccaddilly;Bakerloo rather than Piccaddilly,Bakerloo ? Oh boy, we're going to start that flame war again... but yes, ':' is correct. > (3) I've also noticed "station=subway" vs. "subway=yes". Any thoughts on > that? Yes, it's two different tagging schemes. "station=subway" belongs to the legacy station mapping scheme, while "subway=yes" belongs to the more detailed (and more complex) public transport schema, and is (or should be!) found together with a public_transport=stop_position tag. Note that both tagging schemes can coexist, so having both tagged is acceptable. I recommend though that, for consistency reasons, you pick one (the newer public transport schema is, in my opinion, the better option) and stick with it. I recommend that you read through the public transport schema (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport) if you haven't already -- I think it will answer a lot of your questions. --K ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator
2016-07-14 12:53 GMT+02:00 Kieron Thwaites : > Yes, it's two different tagging schemes. "station=subway" belongs to > the legacy station mapping scheme, while "subway=yes" belongs to the > more detailed (and more complex) public transport schema, and is (or > should be!) found together with a public_transport=stop_position tag. > Note that both tagging schemes can coexist, so having both tagged is > acceptable. I recommend though that, for consistency reasons, you > pick one (the newer public transport schema is, in my opinion, the > better option) and stick with it. > Actually the station=subway tag is to distinguish the whole station from other railbased stations (i.e. there's no relation to public_transport=stop_position), in legacy tagging you add it to railway=station. In the newer scheme I think you'd map it as public_transport=station and subway=yes. On a side note, the newer scheme can currently not be evaluated by the carto-osm rendering stack (main map, missing keys in rendering db). station=subway has clear semantics (it is denoting a subway station), while subway=yes can be combined with different objects, e.g. platforms, stop positions, stations etc. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator
Hi all, thanks for comments. Makes me think about validation. Is there a validator that can be used to compare the accepted schemes to what the actual tagging is? For example, is it possible to validate against manually constructed schemes in JOSM? Is it possible to view osmose errors on certain objects only? Thanks! Bjoern On 14 July 2016 at 13:06, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > 2016-07-14 12:53 GMT+02:00 Kieron Thwaites : > >> Yes, it's two different tagging schemes. "station=subway" belongs to >> the legacy station mapping scheme, while "subway=yes" belongs to the >> more detailed (and more complex) public transport schema, and is (or >> should be!) found together with a public_transport=stop_position tag. >> Note that both tagging schemes can coexist, so having both tagged is >> acceptable. I recommend though that, for consistency reasons, you >> pick one (the newer public transport schema is, in my opinion, the >> better option) and stick with it. >> > > > Actually the station=subway tag is to distinguish the whole station from > other railbased stations (i.e. there's no relation to > public_transport=stop_position), in legacy tagging you add it to > railway=station. In the newer scheme I think you'd map it as > public_transport=station and subway=yes. > On a side note, the newer scheme can currently not be evaluated by the > carto-osm rendering stack (main map, missing keys in rendering db). > > station=subway has clear semantics (it is denoting a subway station), > while subway=yes can be combined with different objects, e.g. platforms, > stop positions, stations etc. > > Cheers, > Martin > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging