Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Johnparis]

Thanks Paul ...

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:13 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 11:56, Johnparis  wrote:
>
>> Hoping this is on topic or close ...
>>
>
> Drifting away.  But you can fix that by saying you will vote against
> certain proposals for
> route tagging because iD doesn't handle route relations properly. :)
>
>>
>> 1) People have mentioned that iD can now edit relations. How? I've
>> searched for tutorials or documentation,
>>
>
> Basic stuff is in iD's help. Click on the question mark at the bottom of
> the set of buttons on the
> right.  Look at the sections list at the right of the pop-up help pane and
> click on Relations.
>
>

Tried that. Nothing at all about editing relations per se, just adding or
deleting elements.

and simply tried to drag elements up or down when opening the relation in
>> iD's edit mode ... nothing.
>>
>
> Works for me.  Clicked on a road I knew was part of a bus route.
> Scrollled down in the
> "Edit feature" pane on the left to get to "All relations."  Clicked on the
> appropriate relation
> to open it up.  Scrolled down to the list of elements in the route.
> Clicked on the title of
> one of those elements (it was "Tertiary Road  Priory Street") and dragged
> it down (or up,
> as the case may be).
>

Aha! I needed to download all the elements (some had said "not downloaded",
so I clicked on the download icon). Then it works. Excellent.


> (I'm also glad to hear that it no longer ignores the order of relation
>> members, sometimes breaking the relation's sorting, which is what got me
>> started with JOSM in the first place.)
>>
>
> Ditto.  But I prefer iD for routes now it doesn't break them.  A touch
> swings and roundabouts,
> but if the route sorting isn't badly broken, I use iD.  The only reason I
> haven't deleted
> JOSM is that there's a plugin that lets me split forests/woods so I can
> give each chunk a
> different name.  Many of the larger woods around here have been mapped by
> others long ago
> but not named.  With the UK's OS OpenData StreetView now available as
> background imagery
> I can give names to woods and chunks of woods.
>
> 2) Pet peeve for JOSM. People have mentioned that it sorts correctly (most
>> of the time anyhow) for junction=roundabout. But it fails with
>> junction=circular, which is the exact equivalent of junction=roundabout but
>> without the restriction that traffic in the circle has the right of way.
>> Seems it would be simple to fix?
>>
>
> Raise a ticket with JOSM: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/newticket
> Actually, it would be a good
> idea to check existing tickets first, in case somebody has already raised
> the issue:
> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/report
>

Will do.

Thanks again.


> --
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 11:56, Johnparis  wrote:

> Hoping this is on topic or close ...
>

Drifting away.  But you can fix that by saying you will vote against
certain proposals for
route tagging because iD doesn't handle route relations properly. :)

>
> 1) People have mentioned that iD can now edit relations. How? I've
> searched for tutorials or documentation,
>

Basic stuff is in iD's help. Click on the question mark at the bottom of
the set of buttons on the
right.  Look at the sections list at the right of the pop-up help pane and
click on Relations.


> and simply tried to drag elements up or down when opening the relation in
> iD's edit mode ... nothing.
>

Works for me.  Clicked on a road I knew was part of a bus route.  Scrollled
down in the
"Edit feature" pane on the left to get to "All relations."  Clicked on the
appropriate relation
to open it up.  Scrolled down to the list of elements in the route.
Clicked on the title of
one of those elements (it was "Tertiary Road  Priory Street") and dragged
it down (or up,
as the case may be).

(I'm also glad to hear that it no longer ignores the order of relation
> members, sometimes breaking the relation's sorting, which is what got me
> started with JOSM in the first place.)
>

Ditto.  But I prefer iD for routes now it doesn't break them.  A touch
swings and roundabouts,
but if the route sorting isn't badly broken, I use iD.  The only reason I
haven't deleted
JOSM is that there's a plugin that lets me split forests/woods so I can
give each chunk a
different name.  Many of the larger woods around here have been mapped by
others long ago
but not named.  With the UK's OS OpenData StreetView now available as
background imagery
I can give names to woods and chunks of woods.

2) Pet peeve for JOSM. People have mentioned that it sorts correctly (most
> of the time anyhow) for junction=roundabout. But it fails with
> junction=circular, which is the exact equivalent of junction=roundabout but
> without the restriction that traffic in the circle has the right of way.
> Seems it would be simple to fix?
>

Raise a ticket with JOSM: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/newticket
Actually, it would be a good
idea to check existing tickets first, in case somebody has already raised
the issue:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/report

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Peter Elderson]

Op vr 16 aug. 2019 om 01:58 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com>:

> The wiki is not consistent, as the definition says the tag
> junction=roundabout is describing
>
> “A road junction where the traffic goes around a non-traversable island
> and has right of way. “
>
> Hm. In Nederland, right of way on roundabouts only applies if there are
the appropriate traffic signs. Otherwise traffic from the right has right
of way. No automatic right of way on roundabouts.  Odd, but true.
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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Jo]

As far as I'm concerned junction=roundabout means that that OSM way is part
of a roundabout. That's how it behaves.

JOSM is perfectly capable of handling split or unsplit roundabouts, except
for ad hoc rendering of the routes. With unsplit roundabouts, they all have
'bulges'. Hence my preference to split them everywhere, but I already
noticed other mappers are less than happy with that. Far less.

Polyglot

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 1:58 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 15. Aug 2019, at 23:25, marc marc  wrote:
>
> why would you not do it for roundabouts?
>
>
> when we split a building in several parts, we keep one building=*
> and use several building:part
>
> for roundabouts, the tag is the same. for the whole roundabouts and for
> part of it.
> So spliting one roundabout into many produce many junction=roundabouts,
> despite it's only one roundabouts.
>
>
>
> it depends on our interpretation of the tags.
>
> The wiki is not consistent, as the definition says the tag
> junction=roundabout is describing
>
> “A road junction where the traffic goes around a non-traversable island
> and has right of way. “
>
>
> Later on, in “how to map”, it is assumed that roundabouts can consist of
> several ways: “
>
>- Tag the OSM way(s) of the roundabout with junction
>=roundabout.”
>
>
> There are some parallels to the bridge key page, where the definition
> currently reads:
>
> A bridge is an artificial construction that spans features such as roads,
> railways, waterways or valleys and carries a road, railway or other
> feature.
>
>
> This doesn’t mean that every way with bridge=yes is defining its own
> bridge (indeed the definition should rather be updated to something like:
> “a property to say something is on a bridge”). We’ll happily split a
> highway with bridge=yes for every property of the road that changes
> somewhere on the bridge, and we won’t interpret this as adding bridges to
> the map.
>
> Similarly we could write that junction=roundabout is a property to say a
> way is part of a roundabout (although this would be ugly, because the tag
> naming suggests to be about a feature rather than a property).
>
> We could also keep the definition and create route relations for the
> roundabouts (only the relation gets the junction tag), or invent a new
> property roundabout=yes for parts of roundabouts.
>
>
> Cheers Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

On 15. Aug 2019, at 23:25, marc marc  wrote:

>> why would you not do it for roundabouts?
> 
> when we split a building in several parts, we keep one building=*
> and use several building:part
> 
> for roundabouts, the tag is the same. for the whole roundabouts and for 
> part of it.
> So spliting one roundabout into many produce many junction=roundabouts, 
> despite it's only one roundabouts.


it depends on our interpretation of the tags. 

The wiki is not consistent, as the definition says the tag junction=roundabout 
is describing 
> “A road junction where the traffic goes around a non-traversable island and 
> has right of way. “


Later on, in “how to map”, it is assumed that roundabouts can consist of 
several ways: “
Tag the OSM way(s) of the roundabout with junction=roundabout.”

There are some parallels to the bridge key page, where the definition currently 
reads:
> A bridge is an artificial construction that spans features such as roads, 
> railways, waterways or valleys and carries a road, railway or other feature. 

This doesn’t mean that every way with bridge=yes is defining its own bridge 
(indeed the definition should rather be updated to something like: “a property 
to say something is on a bridge”). We’ll happily split a highway with 
bridge=yes for every property of the road that changes somewhere on the bridge, 
and we won’t interpret this as adding bridges to the map.

Similarly we could write that junction=roundabout is a property to say a way is 
part of a roundabout (although this would be ugly, because the tag naming 
suggests to be about a feature rather than a property).

We could also keep the definition and create route relations for the 
roundabouts (only the relation gets the junction tag), or invent a new property 
roundabout=yes for parts of roundabouts.


Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Warin]

On 16/08/19 07:25, marc marc wrote:

Le 15.08.19 à 19:40, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :

why would you not do it for roundabouts?

when we split a building in several parts, we keep one building=*
and use several building:part

for roundabouts, the tag is the same. for the whole roundabouts and for
part of it.
So spliting one roundabout into many produce many junction=roundabouts,
despite it's only one roundabouts.
___



If it is split then that may cause problems for a router if you enter one one 
split section, say the middle of it, and lave on the other split section???

I can hear it now "Enter roundabout" .. done proceeding ... "Enter Roundabout" (for 
the second section) ... what??? what roundabout I'm already in the roundabout.. Exit on the second 
exit" .. but I've gone past the second exit since I entered (not realising that the router is 
taking about the second section of the roundabout)...

I leave roundabouts as one circle. The routers will have to cope with it.


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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Volker Schmidt]

Sorting is not the same thing as connection checking.
RA does not sort anything. It is able to find for *route* relations the
minimum number of unconnected pieces that are required to cover the entire
route.
Sorting can only be defined on some special routes. Routes can be connected
in a single set of connected ways, but may not be sortable.
Lets take to simple examples of perfectly correct route relations that
cannot be sorted.
A) A star shaped arrangement of three ways.
B) A single way from A to B that is interrupted by a loop
All this assumes that all ways that are part of the route relation only
appear only once as a member in the relation. Obviously if you have a way
appear several times in a route yo can use this trick to be able to reach
every part of the route graph.


On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 20:43, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 18:41, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I’m usually splitting roundabouts to contain only the part that is in the
>> route. We’re splitting all roads for routes (or other properties or
>> relations, e.g. turn restrictions), why would you not do it for roundabouts?
>>
>
> I assumed, from the last time I read the documentation, that splitting
> roundabouts was the
> correct thing to do (although it was a bit ambiguous, if I recall
> correctly).  Also, it seemed to
> me that it would mean a simple router would get it right whereas not
> splitting the roundabout
> might cause a simple router problems.
>
> --
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[marc marc]

Le 15.08.19 à 19:40, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> why would you not do it for roundabouts?

when we split a building in several parts, we keep one building=*
and use several building:part

for roundabouts, the tag is the same. for the whole roundabouts and for 
part of it.
So spliting one roundabout into many produce many junction=roundabouts, 
despite it's only one roundabouts.
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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 18:41, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> I’m usually splitting roundabouts to contain only the part that is in the
> route. We’re splitting all roads for routes (or other properties or
> relations, e.g. turn restrictions), why would you not do it for roundabouts?
>

I assumed, from the last time I read the documentation, that splitting
roundabouts was the
correct thing to do (although it was a bit ambiguous, if I recall
correctly).  Also, it seemed to
me that it would mean a simple router would get it right whereas not
splitting the roundabout
might cause a simple router problems.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Aug 2019, at 18:25, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> 
> I've just tried it on a bus route containing a roundabout locally and it 
> coped OK.


I’m usually splitting roundabouts to contain only the part that is in the 
route. We’re splitting all roads for routes (or other properties or relations, 
e.g. turn restrictions), why would you not do it for roundabouts?

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Peter Elderson]

"It is not possible to analyze all relations in the same way since
different relation types have different meanings. The RA tries to build a
linked series of ways using some general rules and then creates a rating
based on the type of the relation (although not all relation types are
supported just yet).

An example of a type that is supported are "type=route" relations. *Here it
expects that the relation exists in one piece as a series of linked ways *-
only in this case you will get a OK rating."



Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op do 15 aug. 2019 om 18:26 schreef Andy Townsend :

> On 15/08/2019 17:04, Peter Elderson wrote:
>
>
> Not talking about simple unsorted, but made unsortable. Enter a roundabout
> of pedestrian area into a route, extend a road, shift another - and you
> can'sort it. any more. I'm talking daily experience here.
>
> Presumably you're talking about some software that you're using that can't
> sort a route that has some roads, a roundabout, and then some more roads in
> it?
>
> What software is this?
>
> It's entirely normal that some routes are "not sortable" in the sense of
> "being made into one linear list", but something like
> http://ra.osmsurround.org/index ought to still be able to analyse them OK
> I would have thought?  I've just tried it on a bus route containing a
> roundabout locally and it coped OK.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/08/2019 17:04, Peter Elderson wrote:


Not talking about simple unsorted, but made unsortable. Enter a 
roundabout of pedestrian area into a route, extend a road, shift 
another - and you can'sort it. any more. I'm talking daily experience 
here.


Presumably you're talking about some software that you're using that 
can't sort a route that has some roads, a roundabout, and then some more 
roads in it?


What software is this?

It's entirely normal that some routes are "not sortable" in the sense of 
"being made into one linear list", but something like 
http://ra.osmsurround.org/index ought to still be able to analyse them 
OK I would have thought?  I've just tried it on a bus route containing a 
roundabout locally and it coped OK.


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [Tagging] Route sorting (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, route=hiking, route=foot and Walking routes)

[Peter Elderson]

Op do 15 aug. 2019 om 17:54 schreef Andy Townsend :

>
> On 15/08/2019 16:18, Peter Elderson wrote:
> > Still most problems arise because ID edits damage routes.
>
> An unsorted route in OSM is not damaged.  If your software cannot deal
> with unsorted routes then it cannot deal with many routes currently in OSM.
>

Not talking about simple unsorted, but made unsortable. Enter a roundabout
of pedestrian area into a route, extend a road, shift another - and you
can'sort it. any more. I'm talking daily experience here.
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[Tagging] Route sorting (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, route=hiking, route=foot and Walking routes)

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/08/2019 16:18, Peter Elderson wrote:

Still most problems arise because ID edits damage routes.


An unsorted route in OSM is not damaged.  If your software cannot deal 
with unsorted routes then it cannot deal with many routes currently in OSM.


Please don't try and propagate the madness that some people have tried 
to impose onto public transport route tagging (e.g. multiple relations 
per route) elsewhere in OSM.  If something is not broken, please do not 
attempt to fix it.


(apologies for continuing offtopic diversion; not sure what this has to 
do with tagging)


Best Regards,

Andy




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