Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[Fernando Trebien]

On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 9:53 AM, Fernando Trebien
 wrote:
> Perhaps the pattern would ideally be represented by an open-set sub-tag

Just realized that's the same thing Martin proposed, I misread the
original message.

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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[Fernando Trebien]

On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 6:50 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> I agree that it seems interesting to add not only one of the established
> generic surface tags, but to also give a hint that it is a kind of mosaic /
> iconic depiction. Still, I would not call it "artwork" or
> "artwork_type=mosaic" in the case that was referenced above, as it isn't
> "art" (IMHO), similarly as a plaque on a wall is not generally a "painting".
> I'd rather subtype the surface value to something specific like
> paving_stones=portuguese_pavement

That also made sense to me a while back, but I'm a little afraid of
how far this could be pushed with further specific values. A British
wikipedian [1] pointed out a British consultant [2] that cites other
artsy patterns such as the Belgian or the Florentine. Perhaps the
pattern would ideally be represented by an open-set sub-tag such as
paving_style=portuguese/belgian/florentine/european/random/[other
types]. Then for sidewalks we could use sidewalk:[side]:paving_style
likewise.

> In this context, I'd also change the definition of "surface=paving_stones"
> to account for this case. Currently it reads:
> "... The gaps between the paving stones are smaller because the stones have
> a perfectly regular shape (rectangular, or any surface-filling shape)."
> this is not logical, and I believe is not what is intended: the stones don't
> have to "perfectly regular shape[d] (rectangular, or any surface-filling
> shape)". they could just as well be irregularly shaped, what is important is
> that there aren't big gaps, IMHO the above definition could be like this:
> ""... The gaps between individual paving stones are very narrow, either
> because the stones have a perfectly regular shape (rectangular, or any
> surface-filling shape) or because they have been carefully selected, fitted
> and placed in order to form an even, closed surface." (or something
> similar).

That's what makes most sense to me. So for paving stones the important
distinguishing qualities are being flat and having tight gaps, not so
much a regular cut.

Then I think we should also clarify that surface=setts refer only to
certain larger types of setts, with larger gaps between them. [2] And
that cobblestones refers to a pavement made of reasonably large,
natural, rounded stones. [3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cobblestone#Cobbles_and_Setts
[2] http://www.pavingexpert.com/setts01.htm
[3] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:surface#Cobbles_should_be_described_as_rounded_for_clarity

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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[Javier Sánchez Portero]

El 15 ene. 2018 8:51, "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
escribió:



2018-01-15 8:54 GMT+01:00 OSMDoudou <19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-
288ea1238...@gmx.com>:

> generally a "painting". I'd rather subtype the surface value to something
> specific like paving_stones=portugese_pavement
>

+1

Javier
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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[OSMDoudou]

Of course, what is art is left to everyone's guess and I'm trying to not enter 
this debate… :-)

Maybe a way out is Wikipedia's suggestion that the term "craft" could be used 
instead of "art": " Often, if the skill is being used in a common or practical 
way, people will consider it a craft instead of art." [1] And the Wikipedia 
article on Portuguese pavement also tends to generally qualify it as craft, and 
only as art when it's particularly nice.

However, it's my reading of the OSM Wiki that the tag "craft" denotes the place 
where the craft is *created* and not where it's *deployed*.

Anyway, adding precision with subtype tags looks a good option because it 
captures a factual element visible on the ground and leaves the discussion 
whether it's art or not is outside OSM.

Maybe some people will start a debate about the "Portuguese" qualifier, but 
that's another story… :-)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art



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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-01-15 8:54 GMT+01:00 OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com>:

> It would be a pity to not do justice to the artwork element in this sort
> of pavement.
>
> Not sure what to suggest however, but maybe something with
> artwork_type=mosaic ? [1]
>
> [1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/artwork_type=mosaic



I agree that it seems interesting to add not only one of the established
generic surface tags, but to also give a hint that it is a kind of mosaic /
iconic depiction. Still, I would not call it "artwork" or
"artwork_type=mosaic" in the case that was referenced above, as it isn't
"art" (IMHO), similarly as a plaque on a wall is not generally a
"painting". I'd rather subtype the surface value to something specific like
paving_stones=portugese_pavement

In this context, I'd also change the definition of "surface=paving_stones"
to account for this case. Currently it reads:
"... The gaps between the paving stones are smaller because the stones have
a perfectly regular shape (rectangular, or any surface-filling shape)."
this is not logical, and I believe is not what is intended: the stones
don't have to "perfectly regular shape[d] (rectangular, or any
surface-filling shape)". they could just as well be irregularly shaped,
what is important is that there aren't big gaps, IMHO the above definition
could be like this: ""... The gaps between individual paving stones are
very narrow, either because the stones have a perfectly regular shape
(rectangular, or any surface-filling shape) or because they have been
carefully selected, fitted and placed in order to form an even, closed
surface." (or something similar).


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[althio]

Hi Leon, all,

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface reads:
- In surface=sett ; Note that surface=paving_stones is for flat, completely
covering surface paving stones that may be made also out of stone.
- In surface=paving_stones ; Paving stones describe a relatively smooth
surface paved with concrete or other artificial or natural stones, with a
flat top.

So I understand that surface=paving_stones is not documented as "for
concrete only".
It can apply to all kinds of stone. The main characteristics are
flat top surface.

One can also add material=*
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:material

-- althio

On Jan 15, 2018 7:16 AM, "Leon Karcher"  wrote:

> I'm not sure about 'paving_stones'. This is rather for stones which are
> made of concrete. Maybe I missed some information, but those stones look
> very natural, what would make them a 'sett'.
>
> Am 15.01.2018 02:08 schrieb "Cez jod" :
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> I think that pawing stone will be ok.
>> surface=paving_stone
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeable_paving#/media/File:S
>> antarem_carfree.JPG
>>
>> Regars
>> Slavo
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[OSMDoudou]

It would be a pity to not do justice to the artwork element in this sort of 
pavement.

Not sure what to suggest however, but maybe something with artwork_type=mosaic 
? [1]

[1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/artwork_type=mosaic

-Original Message-
From: Fernando Trebien [mailto:fernando.treb...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2018 22:22
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

Hello,

I'm wondering about what would be the best description for a Portuguese 
pavement [1] in OSM. They are quite common in Portuguese-speaking countries' 
sidewalks and pedestrian streets. I believe that should be surface=cobblestone 
due to the irregular cut of the stones, perhaps with smoothness=good since it 
is usually nice to walk on but not as much for roller skating.

It could maybe be surface=cobblestone:flattened, but the text in the wiki [2] 
makes me think this value is discouraged.

Regards

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_pavement
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface

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+55 (51) 9962-5409

"Nullius in verba."

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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[Leon Karcher]

I'm not sure about 'paving_stones'. This is rather for stones which are
made of concrete. Maybe I missed some information, but those stones look
very natural, what would make them a 'sett'.

Am 15.01.2018 02:08 schrieb "Cez jod" :

> Hi.
>
> I think that pawing stone will be ok.
> surface=paving_stone
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeable_paving#/media/File:S
> antarem_carfree.JPG
>
> Regars
> Slavo
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[Cez jod]

Hi.

I think that pawing stone will be ok.
surface=paving_stone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeable_paving#/media/File:
Santarem_carfree.JPG

Regars
Slavo
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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[althio]

I think they are much more flat, smooth than regular sett.
I guess surface=paving_stones is a good option.

-- althio

On 14 January 2018 at 22:26, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 19:21:52 -0200
> Fernando Trebien  wrote:
>
>> surface=cobblestone
>
> Rather surface=sett as stones at least look like flattened ones.
>
> Though adding smoothness is a a good idea given that
> surface=sett/cobblestone tagging is hopelessly messed up.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 19:21:52 -0200
Fernando Trebien  wrote:

> surface=cobblestone

Rather surface=sett as stones at least look like flattened ones.

Though adding smoothness is a a good idea given that
surface=sett/cobblestone tagging is hopelessly messed up.

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[Tagging] Surface value for portuguese pavement

[Fernando Trebien]

Hello,

I'm wondering about what would be the best description for a
Portuguese pavement [1] in OSM. They are quite common in
Portuguese-speaking countries' sidewalks and pedestrian streets. I
believe that should be surface=cobblestone due to the irregular cut of
the stones, perhaps with smoothness=good since it is usually nice to
walk on but not as much for roller skating.

It could maybe be surface=cobblestone:flattened, but the text in the
wiki [2] makes me think this value is discouraged.

Regards

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_pavement
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface

-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"Nullius in verba."

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