[Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
Mateusz Konieczny wrote on 10.07.2014 11:50: Although since the rules are for josm validation so will be checked by a human, I guess that's low-risk right? I thought about JOSM validator rule with fix button, so it would not be safe to assume that it will be carefully checked (the same type of rule as [natural=marsh] to [natural=wetland, wetland=marsh]). But tricky ones can be just reported with explanation that true type of shop should be verified (shop=fish is ambiguous, it should be changed to either [shop=seafood] or [shop=pet, pet=fish]). According to Wikipedia In North America, although not generally in the United Kingdom, the term seafood is extended to fresh water organisms eaten by humans, so all edible aquatic life may be referred to as seafood.. apart from a hard definition i like Mortens argument: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2010-April/001859.html 'For non-UK-english speakers fishmonger sounds like a swearword. I much prefer the easily understandable and nationality neutral shop=seafood.' The voting was performed using the extended North-American definition - there including fresh water: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/seafood_shop So i see no problem in tagging seafood for every dead fish. Is there really a shop selling only fresh water fish or salt water fish? Or the other way round: do i want to find a shop selling only fresh water and no salt water fish? -- regards Holger ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
On 31/07/2014 09:27, Holger Jeromin wrote: The voting was performed using the extended North-American definition - there including fresh water: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/seafood_shop ... and exactly 8 people voted in favour. That's clearly a ringing endorsement. :-) So i see no problem in tagging seafood for every dead fish. Is there really a shop selling only fresh water fish or salt water fish? It's a fair bet in OSM that for any X, somewhere in the world, there is a shop selling X. Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
Am 31/lug/2014 um 10:27 schrieb Holger Jeromin mailgm...@katur.de: The voting was performed using the extended North-American definition - there including fresh water: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/seafood_shop So i see no problem in tagging seafood for every dead fish. we are using British English, so this doesn't fit well Is there really a shop selling only fresh water fish or salt water fish? yes cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
2014-07-31 11:02 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 31/lug/2014 um 10:27 schrieb Holger Jeromin mailgm...@katur.de: The voting was performed using the extended North-American definition - there including fresh water: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/seafood_shop So i see no problem in tagging seafood for every dead fish. we are using British English, so this doesn't fit well I appreciate that, but despite being a British English speaker I'm happy with shop=seafood, and maybe we can use sub-tags to designate variations on the theme. shop=seafood was porposed, voted and approved 4 years ago and is now more common than shop=fishmonger, so I'd suggest we should make ourselves comfortable with it :) http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/shop=seafood/shop=fishmonger/shop=fish Dan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
I don't like that seafood includes fresh water fish, and that might make some misunderstanding among mappers. I'd like a big bold USE THIS TAG FOR FRESHWATER FISH ALSO over the wiki page. I like the fishmonger word better, but I understand seafood is an easier word for non-native english speakers. Other than that, I'm ok with it. Janko 2014-07-31 12:38 GMT+02:00 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com: 2014-07-31 11:02 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 31/lug/2014 um 10:27 schrieb Holger Jeromin mailgm...@katur.de: The voting was performed using the extended North-American definition - there including fresh water: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/seafood_shop So i see no problem in tagging seafood for every dead fish. we are using British English, so this doesn't fit well I appreciate that, but despite being a British English speaker I'm happy with shop=seafood, and maybe we can use sub-tags to designate variations on the theme. shop=seafood was porposed, voted and approved 4 years ago and is now more common than shop=fishmonger, so I'd suggest we should make ourselves comfortable with it :) http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/shop=seafood/shop=fishmonger/shop=fish Dan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
Am 31.07.2014 13:07, schrieb Janko Mihelić: I don't like that seafood includes fresh water fish, and that might make some misunderstanding among mappers. I'd like a big bold USE THIS TAG FOR FRESHWATER FISH ALSO over the wiki page. I like the fishmonger word better, but I understand seafood is an easier word for non-native english speakers. Other than that, I'm ok with it. Exactly, we can use one general term and (if needed) some extra key or subkeys. I just met the same issue wit cusine=* though I think subkeys do not help in this case. Do wee need salt water fish, sweet water fish and seafood ? Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
2014-07-31 13:07 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: I don't like that seafood includes fresh water fish, and that might make some misunderstanding among mappers. +1 Take this shop for instance (businesses like this are quite common in Germany and presumably in other countries as well, they are raising trouts and selling them). http://www.forellenzucht-rameil.de/Hofladen.html shop=seafood would seem very strange for this. All shops that are far away from the sea and sell local products are not well covered by shop=seafood (IMHO). fishmonger was the earlier tag and had no such problems, I really don't see good reasons to deprecate it. If you look at the voting results http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/seafood_shop you can see that this tag was formally rejected because of missing participation ;-) I like the fishmonger word better, but I understand seafood is an easier word for non-native english speakers. I am not sure it really is easier for non-natives. Are you a native? I am not, but back in school we learned the word fishmonger (because we studied British English of course). My guess is that most people who learn English as an additional language will be taught British English. It is them who have the older Empire ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
2014-07-31 15:06 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: I like the fishmonger word better, but I understand seafood is an easier word for non-native english speakers. I am not sure it really is easier for non-natives. Are you a native? I am not, but back in school we learned the word fishmonger (because we studied British English of course). My guess is that most people who learn English as an additional language will be taught British English. It is them who have the older Empire ;-) I'm not native, but I think I'm better then average :) Fishmonger is a word that represents exactly what that tag is. A look at Wikipedia[1] shows that. Seafood is problematic because of the sea in the word and because it can mean a restaurant with seafood. I don't understand why we would choose an inferior word, but whatever. Anyway, I think the future of OSM tagging is in editors like iD that translate tags into native languages, and that's why I think tag names aren't as important as their unambiguous wiki pages. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishmonger ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
2014-07-31 15:46 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: Anyway, I think the future of OSM tagging is in editors like iD that translate tags into native languages this will level out a lot of fine distinctions and give a lot of power and responsibility to the preset makers. The main problem I see is that one word is often not enough to give a tag definition (and to make distinctions from other tags). Having one or two phrases would improve the situation already a lot. Anyway FWIW, most data is still edited with JOSM (2014: 78,5%) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editor_usage_stats cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
2014-07-31 15:57 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: this will level out a lot of fine distinctions and give a lot of power and responsibility to the preset makers. Yes, that's why I think there should be a centralized tag translation, tag icon, and tag semantic meaning database that all editors would then use. The fact that iD has Transifex users decide on the translation (and thus meaning) of tags isn't a very good idea. The main problem I see is that one word is often not enough to give a tag definition (and to make distinctions from other tags). Having one or two phrases would improve the situation already a lot. iD has a good solution here, if you click on a little i besides the tag, you get the first paragraph from the tag's wiki article (in your language if it's available) with a little picture. Anyway FWIW, most data is still edited with JOSM (2014: 78,5%) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editor_usage_stats I think most of the data will always be mapped by experienced JOSM users. We just need newcomers to be as little trouble as possible :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] seafood vs fishmonger (was Re: Synonymous values in the shop key)
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 6:46 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: Fishmonger is a word that represents exactly what that tag is. A look at Wikipedia[1] shows that. Seafood is problematic because of the sea in the word and because it can mean a restaurant with seafood. I don't understand why we would choose an inferior word, but whatever. In my dialect (I am a Canadian, not British) seafood includes fresh-water creatures too. Don't get hung up on the literal meanings of things. The wikipedia article for seafood includes fresh water fish as well. Fishmonger is a word that I would read in Shakespeare. I am educated enough to be able to figure out what it means, but most of my friends would be at a loss. I would generally support seafood because it is the word that will mean the most to the most people. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
