Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I understand the issue now. With the multitude of: - places to get information - areas of responsibility (EG OSM tagging is somewhat separate form rendering) - mailing lists of different groups. - Language pages of the different languages being used in OSM it seems to be really problematic to get authoritative information, at least in the boat that I am in, living (and knowing) Japan geographically quite well, but still dependent on english for my daily life (currently). The JA wiki ( which is mostly bilingual as well - nice) is helpful, but incomplete or old: - The Wiki's main Japan project page is a couple years out of date. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Japan - Naming sample is really helpful - for chain stores. the issues I have are for naming transportation http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JA:Naming_sample - Tagging features goes into naming features, but the discussion of adding English to the names is only discussed in Japanese, so I had no idea what they were (or are) discussing, and no mention of not putting english in tags being bad is not mentioned anywhere on that page. I assumed it was similarly out of date and the parenthesis were added in as more people were working to clean up and tag the old data imports. But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other alternative (apps or tiles or so). If every single exit, train station, and hundreds of thousands of road signs are gonna be officially printed bilingual, then there should be a solution in OSM for showing both too, especially in the main rendered map (the JA render specifically for Japan, I have no issues with being Japanese only) Unless we want to start getting a lot of blue paint and painting out all the english in all the road signs in Japan. I know that sounds inflammatory, but being able to reference the Kanji as an identifier - especially when other private Japanese material (is of course, as expected) printed in Japanese only, being able to match Kanji on the maps to the Japanese only material lets me navigate and understand the places I am going, and the english helps me speak, identify, and learn the locations and associated Kanji. This is why Google Maps english labels are useful (you get En + JA) and Apple's is not nearly as useful (EN only). This is the reality of the foreigners living in Japan and other places where learning the character set is more difficult than learning their phonetic symbols. I can get by with reading Munich or München, but being able to read 東京 vs 京都 vs 前橋 is quite more difficult than München vs Nürnberg vs Stuttgart, as they are not phonetic. For the main transportation system - Tollways Trains - the english exists for a reason - and that reason is just as valid for it's inclusion (in some database friendly way) into OSM In a larger context - I find this really interesting - the local signs and whatever are bilingual - but other people ehre said that this is the policy of using the local language, but getting regional or non-western things added to the main tagging scema - and then supported in rendering is almost impossible without major support from people uninterested in tagging those items - so there is barely anything supported for rendering things in Japan's standard iconography. For example - The way OSM renders train lines doesn't match the decades long tradition in all printed materials (let alone maps) in Japan referencing the dashed train lines as only for the JR system, while the myriad of other private railways are solid lines. since there is no support for coloring of ways, then there is no way to remove this confusion brought about by OSM's incomplete tagging and rendering system of the entire Japanese train and subway system - because it doesn't conform to the larger internationally focused and uniform rendering of the map. Convenient for the tagging system and the rendering, but creates a confusing and inferior map to the Japanese people who would use it. I find it very convenient that the solutions to problems changes between uniformity and regional preference depending on which one would mean less changes to tagging and rendering schemas. I will not be using (en) parenthesis going forward, and I hope people who know more than I can implement a rendering solution to let people choose which sublanguage tag they'd also like displayed. Javbw On Sep 13, 2014, at 11:41 PM, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, johnw Japan local community had discussed about that on 2014/03. Thread is started here (quite long!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/2013-September/007600.html Summary is * Japan community stop name = JP (EN) writing, after 2014/03. * Existing name = JP (EN) is switched to name + name:ja + name:en, by manually. Mechanical edits are not recommended. * (But as you know,
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
Missed that in August. Great to see it is being discussed at any level. On Sep 14, 2014, at 12:21 AM, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: wow! https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 My previous text should be insisted (past, at that time). I'll follow the current issue, thanks! 2014-09-14 0:02 GMT+09:00 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: On 13 September 2014 15:41, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other alternative (apps or tiles or so). This suggestion is in fact currently under discussion: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
Okay, I’ve tried to update the old wiki pages (multilanguage names etc.) Lukas Sommer 2014-09-15 10:47 GMT+00:00 johnw jo...@mac.com: Missed that in August. Great to see it is being discussed at any level. On Sep 14, 2014, at 12:21 AM, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: wow! https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 My previous text should be insisted (past, at that time). I'll follow the current issue, thanks! 2014-09-14 0:02 GMT+09:00 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: On 13 September 2014 15:41, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other alternative (apps or tiles or so). This suggestion is in fact currently under discussion: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
On 2014-09-13 17:02, Matthijs Melissen wrote : On 13 September 2014 15:41, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other alternative (apps or tiles or so). This suggestion is in fact currently under discussion: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 I have occasionally privately discussed similar issues with this or that renderer. The best you can find is renderers that force the name display to the configured UI language. (examples: configuring the browser to request fr replies or some program to display fr messages) None of them agreed that it is worth forcing the name display to yet another alternative language. Among languages is that peculiar dummy language called 'the native language on the map name=*. And now we have a quite valid display names in two languages request !!! I think that OSM should publish for renderers a map names language requirements document gathering such language facts, including the following /*names language configuration*/, much the same way as I published a document helping programmers ftp://ftp.ulg.ac.be/pub/docs/iso8859/iso8859.networking.txt to understand how to use character codes 20 years ago when only ASCII was used. * native: just display name=* * no configuration: defaults to native * ll (language ISO code): try to use language ll, else use native * UI language: use the client UI language configuration for ll * ll bilingual: display name=* plus language ll falling back to English A typically misconceived case is Osmand: They have a setting for the (UI) language of the message Osmand displays, including that of the system. That's all-right. Beside that, they have 'Select between native and English names. Why just English names and not native/UI/specific languages names?. The misconception is often thinking that all the world speaks English or at least should understand it, or that every user uses a single language. This was the case of those howto video clips on Youtube: only 15% of the watchers could understand them because they are in English (not counting very particular English accents getting the number even lower). I say was because they finally did use what I had imagined: subtitles translated by Google. What I had not imagined though, is that laziness would make them use voice recognition instead of writing subtitles (small menu on the right of bottom bar). Doubling the number of translation errors that way is often a reason by itself to have fun watching those videos. こん ばんは (bonsoir (good evening)) André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
Hello, On 13.09.2014 07:49, johnw wrote: Is there in OSM wide set for this? pulling all the default (English) labels off of an internationally focused map seems truly backwards. Whats the deal there? in OSM we focus on ground truth and having a local (!) community taking care of the data and keeping it in shape. The standard in OSM is to put the local name of a feature in the name tag. There are exceptions for countries with multiple languages in use or for disputed areas. But typically there is one language and the feature's name in that language is in the name tag. If the name exists in different languages or there is the need for some romanized writing this is in the respective name:* tags. Due to the main site's map commitment to the local community and thus displaying each feature in it's local name some people abused the name tag to implement bilingual (local/English) rendering. This is certainly an abuse as it makes processing the data for various purposes much more difficult. And the decision which name to show on a map is a cartographic decision and should not be made in the data. As of today there exist many alternatives on how to make a map multi-lingual. My own map is doing this since four years, Mapquest is also showing a local/English naming (world-wide). So while in principle it's correct to fix the name tag to include only the local name (in your case in Japanese), due to the widespread misuse of the name tag especially in Japan it is a decision of the local community how to go on with it. Personally I would favor a mechanical edit to rectify the majority of the name tags, then continue with the local/name:* scheme. But this is a decision which needs to be made by the local community. You can compare the tagging in other parts of the world which follow this tagging. For example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=9/48.0147/11.5645layers=Q it is name=München, name=en=Munich No local mapper wants to read München (Munich) on the map. So why should Japanese or Chinese mappers want to read something on their map? The style on osm.org respects local mapper and always shows the local name. Specific rendering exists for international maps. Switch to the mapquest layer and you can read it bi-lingual. Other maps like that on openstreetmap.de try to show always the German name or a romanized form. Stephan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
On Sep 13, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: No local mapper wants to read München (Munich) on the map. So why should Japanese or Chinese mappers want to read something on their map? - if they were using a Japanese only map, then I can understand, but that would be pulling from the name:ja= tag, right? - every single major sign, Street name, Highway exit, Large train station identifying sign, City Building label, etc is labeled in English as well as Japanese. Every single one of the 2000 or so tollway exits are labeled in english, and the hundreds of thousands of blue intersection road signs are also printed bi-lingually as well - as a service to the forigners living there, as mastering reading and understanding all the Kanji for the various place names takes a decade or so of straight practice. If they sign most everything imaginable that is important in Japanese + English, having it mapped that way too seems reasonable. Understanding that this JA (en) schema is bad for the database makes sense - but couldn't those also be pulling from the name:*= tags? Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
johnw, Let me try to clarify a bit more. In Japan the name tag should contain ONLY the Japanese language name of the feature. If someone wants to add an English version they are free to do that but it should be added in a special tag, i.e., name:en That way renderers that wish to show features labeled in English will use the information in the name:en=* tag while others may use the Japanese name from the standard name=* tag. It all depends on the audience the renderer is trying to please. Having a tag with two versions in its value is an error by this reasoning. While the person deleting the parenthetical translation is perhaps being a bit impolite by not consulting everyone who has added those extra names, he or she is actually only removing data that is not correct and that will likely cause problems down the line. In addition, if the practice is as widespread as you say, contacting everyone doing this bad tagging is simply too much work. As stephan correctly points out, if I were in America I certainly wouldn't appreciate seeing those parenthetical street names in Thai following the English names, even in a predominantly Thai neighborhood. Dave On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Sep 13, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: No local mapper wants to read München (Munich) on the map. So why should Japanese or Chinese mappers want to read something on their map? - if they were using a Japanese only map, then I can understand, but that would be pulling from the name:ja= tag, right? - every single major sign, Street name, Highway exit, Large train station identifying sign, City Building label, etc is labeled in English as well as Japanese. Every single one of the 2000 or so tollway exits are labeled in english, and the hundreds of thousands of blue intersection road signs are also printed bi-lingually as well - as a service to the forigners living there, as mastering reading and understanding all the Kanji for the various place names takes a decade or so of straight practice. If they sign most everything imaginable that is important in Japanese + English, having it mapped that way too seems reasonable. Understanding that this JA (en) schema is bad for the database makes sense - but couldn't those also be pulling from the name:*= tags? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
Hello, johnw Japan local community had discussed about that on 2014/03. Thread is started here (quite long!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/2013-September/007600.html Summary is * Japan community stop name = JP (EN) writing, after 2014/03. * Existing name = JP (EN) is switched to name + name:ja + name:en, by manually. Mechanical edits are not recommended. * (But as you know, detecting name = JP (EN) is very easy those days by using overpass API.) * Most of JP members understand name = JP (EN) writing is too bad. But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other alternative (apps or tiles or so). * Most of JP members also understand name = JP (EN) writing would break the database structure. * Why name = JP (EN) writing is still alive on transport? Only for no mappers is enthusiastic about that. At least yet. :) Switching is happen on Place node by some enthusiastic members (as seemed.) As you said, bilingual expression is very important for foreigners. It is better that we could get more name:* specific tiles or some vector tile to satisfy this needs. Regards. 2014-09-13 19:59 GMT+09:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: johnw, Let me try to clarify a bit more. In Japan the name tag should contain ONLY the Japanese language name of the feature. If someone wants to add an English version they are free to do that but it should be added in a special tag, i.e., name:en That way renderers that wish to show features labeled in English will use the information in the name:en=* tag while others may use the Japanese name from the standard name=* tag. It all depends on the audience the renderer is trying to please. Having a tag with two versions in its value is an error by this reasoning. While the person deleting the parenthetical translation is perhaps being a bit impolite by not consulting everyone who has added those extra names, he or she is actually only removing data that is not correct and that will likely cause problems down the line. In addition, if the practice is as widespread as you say, contacting everyone doing this bad tagging is simply too much work. As stephan correctly points out, if I were in America I certainly wouldn't appreciate seeing those parenthetical street names in Thai following the English names, even in a predominantly Thai neighborhood. Dave On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Sep 13, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: No local mapper wants to read München (Munich) on the map. So why should Japanese or Chinese mappers want to read something on their map? - if they were using a Japanese only map, then I can understand, but that would be pulling from the name:ja= tag, right? - every single major sign, Street name, Highway exit, Large train station identifying sign, City Building label, etc is labeled in English as well as Japanese. Every single one of the 2000 or so tollway exits are labeled in english, and the hundreds of thousands of blue intersection road signs are also printed bi-lingually as well - as a service to the forigners living there, as mastering reading and understanding all the Kanji for the various place names takes a decade or so of straight practice. If they sign most everything imaginable that is important in Japanese + English, having it mapped that way too seems reasonable. Understanding that this JA (en) schema is bad for the database makes sense - but couldn't those also be pulling from the name:*= tags? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
On 13 September 2014 15:41, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other alternative (apps or tiles or so). This suggestion is in fact currently under discussion: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
wow! https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 My previous text should be insisted (past, at that time). I'll follow the current issue, thanks! 2014-09-14 0:02 GMT+09:00 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: On 13 September 2014 15:41, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other alternative (apps or tiles or so). This suggestion is in fact currently under discussion: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
