Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Oct 2018, at 23:02, ChameleonScales  
> wrote:
> 
> I am not involved enough in OSM at the moment to engage in other subjects 
> than the one I started.
> Please forward the discussion on the wiki page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/toy_library
> 
> Thank you all for your help so far and see you there, hopefully
> Best regards

if you want to follow only one thread and not everything you can read this 
mailing list also in the web:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-October/thread.html

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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

I'm just letting you guys know that I will unsubscribe from the mailing list 
because I get notified too frequently on my phone of new emails and I am not 
involved enough in OSM at the moment to engage in other subjects than the one I 
started.
Please forward the discussion on the wiki 
page:https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/toy_library

Thank you all for your help so far and see you there, hopefully
Best regards

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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 9:59 PM ChameleonScales <
chameleonsca...@protonmail.com> wrote:

> I made some changes again.
>

I like the way you have a purple rocking horse and describe it as a brown
rocking horse. :)

It might be an idea either to put up a brown version or to clarify that the
intended icon is a brown
version of the purple one shown.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

I made some changes again. Mainly I changed "rental" to "loan" even though loan 
doesn't exist, because they have a quite different meaning:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rent
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/loan

and I changed the age tags to account for a comment in the proposal's 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Mateusz Konieczny]

15. Oct 2018 15:34 by chameleonsca...@protonmail.com 
:
>
> So how can I change the url of my proposal to toy_library instead of 
> toy_and_game_library?

I moved the page in



https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/toy_library=1680852=1680850
 


For future: there should be an option to move page near "edit" button.



For me it is hidden in "more" menu.




In general, OSM wiki is using mediawiki software, the same as Wikipedia so 
googling






https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mediawiki+change+title=canonical=web 







https://duckduckgo.com/?q=wikipedia+change+title=canonical=web 





sometimes helps to find how to do some things.

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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

Thanks but this has already been taken care of in the proposal page. I don't 
see why you're pointing that out now.___
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Note that 

(a) proposed icon is the least important part of any proposal and may be safely 
skipped
(b) if someone really wants to add a proposed icon there is no obligation 
tofollow colour scheme and size limitations of a specific map style 

15. Oct 2018 15:55 by pla16...@gmail.com :


> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 2:29 PM ChameleonScales <> 
> chameleonsca...@protonmail.com > > 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Also I'd like to upload a proposed svg icon but apparently I don't have 
>> permission to upload media files on the wiki.
>>
>
> You haven't made enough edits on the wiki for the automated system to 
> consider you sufficiently>  trustworthy to upload files.
> I'd do it for you, but I don't think the icon is suitable.  It is a games 
> icon.  As you say in another> post, you've decided that "toy library" is more 
> commonly used than "toy and games library" to> refer to these places, so your 
> icon gives the wrong impression.
> I'd also note that the icon for a book library is identical in shape to that 
> of a bookshop but the>  library icon is brown (amenity) and the bookshop icon 
> is purple (shop).  I'd therefore suggest that>  it's more in keeping with 
> established practise to use a brown version of the toyshop icon (I don't 
> know>  if that's something that the carto stages can do automatically from a 
> single icon or if you need to> generate a brown version).
> Also, these icons are rendered at 16x16 pixels on the map and your icon is 
> not going to be legible.
> And even if I thought your icon were appropriate and suitable, it's the wrong 
> colour anyway. :)
> -- 
> Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

I made some updates. Feedback appreciated.___
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

You made good points. Let's use a brown rocking horse then.

So, about my url question, is it doable?

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, October 15, 2018 4:04 PM, Joseph Eisenberg 
 wrote:

> Yes, the software can change the icon color, so if an existing icon shape is 
> good, we can just use that.
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:57 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 2:29 PM ChameleonScales 
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Also I'd like to upload a proposed svg icon but apparently I don't have 
>>> permission to upload media files on the wiki.
>>
>> You haven't made enough edits on the wiki for the automated system to 
>> consider you sufficiently
>> trustworthy to upload files.
>>
>> I'd do it for you, but I don't think the icon is suitable.  It is a games 
>> icon.  As you say in another
>> post, you've decided that "toy library" is more commonly used than "toy and 
>> games library" to
>> refer to these places, so your icon gives the wrong impression.
>>
>> I'd also note that the icon for a book library is identical in shape to that 
>> of a bookshop but the
>> library icon is brown (amenity) and the bookshop icon is purple (shop).  I'd 
>> therefore suggest that
>> it's more in keeping with established practise to use a brown version of the 
>> toyshop icon (I don't know
>> if that's something that the carto stages can do automatically from a single 
>> icon or if you need to
>> generate a brown version).
>>
>> Also, these icons are rendered at 16x16 pixels on the map and your icon is 
>> not going to be legible.
>>
>> And even if I thought your icon were appropriate and suitable, it's the 
>> wrong colour anyway. :)
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Joseph Eisenberg]

 Yes, the software can change the icon color, so if an existing icon shape
is good, we can just use that.
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:57 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 2:29 PM ChameleonScales <
> chameleonsca...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Also I'd like to upload a proposed svg icon but apparently I don't have
>> permission to upload media files on the wiki.
>>
>
> You haven't made enough edits on the wiki for the automated system to
> consider you sufficiently
> trustworthy to upload files.
>
> I'd do it for you, but I don't think the icon is suitable.  It is a games
> icon.  As you say in another
> post, you've decided that "toy library" is more commonly used than "toy
> and games library" to
> refer to these places, so your icon gives the wrong impression.
>
> I'd also note that the icon for a book library is identical in shape to
> that of a bookshop but the
> library icon is brown (amenity) and the bookshop icon is purple (shop).
> I'd therefore suggest that
> it's more in keeping with established practise to use a brown version of
> the toyshop icon (I don't know
> if that's something that the carto stages can do automatically from a
> single icon or if you need to
> generate a brown version).
>
> Also, these icons are rendered at 16x16 pixels on the map and your icon is
> not going to be legible.
>
> And even if I thought your icon were appropriate and suitable, it's the
> wrong colour anyway. :)
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 2:29 PM ChameleonScales <
chameleonsca...@protonmail.com> wrote:

>
> Also I'd like to upload a proposed svg icon but apparently I don't have
> permission to upload media files on the wiki.
>

You haven't made enough edits on the wiki for the automated system to
consider you sufficiently
trustworthy to upload files.

I'd do it for you, but I don't think the icon is suitable.  It is a games
icon.  As you say in another
post, you've decided that "toy library" is more commonly used than "toy and
games library" to
refer to these places, so your icon gives the wrong impression.

I'd also note that the icon for a book library is identical in shape to
that of a bookshop but the
library icon is brown (amenity) and the bookshop icon is purple (shop).
I'd therefore suggest that
it's more in keeping with established practise to use a brown version of
the toyshop icon (I don't know
if that's something that the carto stages can do automatically from a
single icon or if you need to
generate a brown version).

Also, these icons are rendered at 16x16 pixels on the map and your icon is
not going to be legible.

And even if I thought your icon were appropriate and suitable, it's the
wrong colour anyway. :)

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

Also I discussed with a senior toy and game library owner and she says "toy 
library" is better even if it doesn't include "game" because it's a more 
established name.

So how can I change the url of my proposal to toy_library instead of 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

Yeah actually I'm still working on it.
I'd like them to have tags for whether they can lend or not and what public is 
targeted (children or all ages). When I travel and look for a board game to 
rent I don't want to end up in a child care center with no adult games.

Also I'd like to upload a proposed svg icon but apparently I don't have 
permission to upload media files on the wiki. Can anyone do it?
The svg is attached to this mail.___
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 12:05 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> 13. Oct 2018 02:49 by chameleonsca...@protonmail.com:
>
> Other than that, is it complete enough to move it from Draft to Proposed?
>
>
> Feel free to do that - there is no real difference between Draft and
> Proposed
>


there is a slight difference in the communication with the others: if a
proposal is a draft I would expect with higher probability that anything
may change at any time, while a "proposed" status suggests that the
definition is less likely to change. It is up to you (the author of the
proposal) to decide which status to assign. "proposed" is usually set after
you asked for comments on this list (RFC).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Mateusz Konieczny]

13. Oct 2018 02:49 by chameleonsca...@protonmail.com 
:

> Other than that, is it complete enough to move it from Draft to Proposed?

Feel free to do that - there is no real difference between Draft and Proposed
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

Sure but if anyone has something to say that is directly related to my proposal 
it would be best to discuss it there.

Other than that, is it complete enough to move it from Draft to Proposed?

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, October 12, 2018 3:21 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Took me a while to find it .. to save otehrs time here is a link.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/toy_and_game_library
>
> Proposals are usually discussed both here and on their own discussion page.
>
> On 11/10/18 20:27, ChameleonScales wrote:
>
>> I made some updates to the wiki proposal and I propose we continue the 
>> discussion on its discussion page.
>>
>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 11:23 PM, ChameleonScales 
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Game and toy libraries don't fit in any feature type.
>>> They can be but are not necessarily:
>>> - non-profit organizations
>>> - child care facilities
>>> - social faciilties
>>> - toy stores
>>> - libraries
>>> - probably other things
>>>
>>> So I think they should have their own feature type and tag.
>>> How about
>>> amenity:library=game_and_toy
>>>
>>> Would that be possible?
>>>
>>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Warin]

Took me a while to find it .. to save otehrs time here is a link.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/toy_and_game_library

Proposals are usually discussed both here and on their own discussion page.

On 11/10/18 20:27, ChameleonScales wrote:
I made some updates to the wiki proposal and I propose we continue the 
discussion on its discussion page.


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 11:23 PM, ChameleonScales 
> wrote:



Hi all,

Game and toy libraries don't fit in any feature type.
They can be but are not necessarily:
- non-profit organizations
- child care facilities
- social faciilties
- toy stores
- libraries
- probably other things

So I think they should have their own feature type and tag.
How about
amenity:library=game_and_toy

Would that be possible?


Sent with ProtonMail  Secure Email.





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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Warin]

On 11/10/18 08:11, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 06:49, Paul Allen > wrote:



I'd go with amenity=toy_library and the sub-tags, or maybe not
even bother with the sub-tags.


Not arguing!, but going back to my question about Family History 
libraries, I wonder whether a lot of the confusion about "what's in 
this "library"" wouldn't be sorted by the name?


Assume for one moment that everything is tagged as amenity=library, 
with sub-tags lending=yes, toys=no, games=yes, family_history=no etc.


I can see that just the standard "book" library icon showing would 
cause some confusion, but if this library is named "Southport Public 
Library", while this one a bit further down the road is "Fun & Games", 
then/I/ at least know which one I'm going to go into to to borrow some 
books to read, & which one has games!




Libraries I know have some 'family history' records have nothing in 
their name to indicate that detail.
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 10:13 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 06:49, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> I'd go with amenity=toy_library and the sub-tags, or maybe not even
>> bother with the sub-tags.
>>
>
> Not arguing!, but going back to my question about Family History
> libraries, I wonder whether a lot of the confusion about "what's in this
> "library"" wouldn't be sorted by the name?
>

`1) What's your design for a generic "This institution lends things of some
sort, possibly charging
for a rental fee" that covers book libraries, toy libraries, tool hire...

2) In some cases a library (of whatever sort) may be in a cluttered area so
there is no room
to render the name, just the icon.  So even if you can come up with a
suitable generic icon,
you don't know what kind of lending institution it is.  At least with
amenity=library, amenity=toy_library,
etc. you can have different icons.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

I made some updates to the wiki proposal and I propose we continue the 
discussion on its discussion page.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 11:23 PM, ChameleonScales 
 wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Game and toy libraries don't fit in any feature type.
> They can be but are not necessarily:
> - non-profit organizations
> - child care facilities
> - social faciilties
> - toy stores
> - libraries
> - probably other things
>
> So I think they should have their own feature type and tag.
> How about
> amenity:library=game_and_toy
>
> Would that be possible?
>
> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.___
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[bkil]

Some Fablabs also offer tool lending, although it is much more common
to see in place use
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dhackerspace

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 11:42 PM Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:
>
> In California, several cities have a community “Tool Library”, a type of 
> lending “library” where you can check out hand tools and power tools for 
> garden or construction projects. I believe the ones in Portland and Berkeley 
> have no fee, and rely on volunteer labor.
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 6:13 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick  
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 06:49, Paul Allen  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd go with amenity=toy_library and the sub-tags, or maybe not even bother 
>>> with the sub-tags.
>>
>>
>> Not arguing!, but going back to my question about Family History libraries, 
>> I wonder whether a lot of the confusion about "what's in this "library"" 
>> wouldn't be sorted by the name?
>>
>> Assume for one moment that everything is tagged as amenity=library, with 
>> sub-tags lending=yes, toys=no, games=yes, family_history=no etc.
>>
>> I can see that just the standard "book" library icon showing would cause 
>> some confusion, but if this library is named "Southport Public Library", 
>> while this one a bit further down the road is "Fun & Games", then I at least 
>> know which one I'm going to go into to to borrow some books to read, & which 
>> one has games!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Joseph Eisenberg]

In California, several cities have a community “Tool Library”, a type of
lending “library” where you can check out hand tools and power tools for
garden or construction projects. I believe the ones in Portland and
Berkeley have no fee, and rely on volunteer labor.
On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 6:13 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 06:49, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> I'd go with amenity=toy_library and the sub-tags, or maybe not even
>> bother with the sub-tags.
>>
>
> Not arguing!, but going back to my question about Family History
> libraries, I wonder whether a lot of the confusion about "what's in this
> "library"" wouldn't be sorted by the name?
>
> Assume for one moment that everything is tagged as amenity=library, with
> sub-tags lending=yes, toys=no, games=yes, family_history=no etc.
>
> I can see that just the standard "book" library icon showing would cause
> some confusion, but if this library is named "Southport Public Library",
> while this one a bit further down the road is "Fun & Games", then* I* at
> least know which one I'm going to go into to to borrow some books to read,
> & which one has games!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 06:49, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> I'd go with amenity=toy_library and the sub-tags, or maybe not even bother
> with the sub-tags.
>

Not arguing!, but going back to my question about Family History libraries,
I wonder whether a lot of the confusion about "what's in this "library""
wouldn't be sorted by the name?

Assume for one moment that everything is tagged as amenity=library, with
sub-tags lending=yes, toys=no, games=yes, family_history=no etc.

I can see that just the standard "book" library icon showing would cause
some confusion, but if this library is named "Southport Public Library",
while this one a bit further down the road is "Fun & Games", then* I* at
least know which one I'm going to go into to to borrow some books to read,
& which one has games!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:37 PM SelfishSeahorse 
wrote:

> AFAIK ludothèques are just called 'toy libraries' in English.
>

Looks like it.  Although I only learned of my local toy library less than a
year ago and had no
idea such things existed prior to that.  I see the French came up with a
more sensible name
for these things.  As they did with discothèque (it would have been called
a music and dance library
if the English had named it).

Therefore i suggest tagging them amenity=toy_library (already 125 uses
> by the way).
>

According to that reliable source (!) Wikipedia, toy libraries lend out
toys, puzzles and games.
But my local toy library has only toys and puzzles (so its online catalogue
claims).  So either
amenity=toy_library with sub-tags toy_library:toys=yes/no,
toy_library:games=yes/no etc or
amenity=toy_library, amenity=toy_and_games_library, and all the other
permutations (6 in
total with just toys, games and puzzles, perhaps more as toy libraries
become more inventive).

I'd go with amenity=toy_library and the sub-tags, or maybe not even bother
with the sub-tags.

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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:13 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> On 10. Oct 2018, at 20:01, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > The rendering tools
> > can be changed to accommodate this but, as I understand it, such changes
> may greatly
> > increase the processing time to render map tiles whether or not they
> contain a library.
>
> not true. It makes evaluation more complex though.


I was going by my unreliable memory of a youtube video from a few years ago
where the
rendering chain was explained.  It was very complex and, at least back
then, even minor changes
could cause it to go a lot slower.  It could have changed since then (there
were many transformation
stages) or I could be misremembering.


> If you stand on the position that a toys library is a kind of library,
> subtagging is the way to go, if you think it is different to a library and
> has just the library in the name, you make a new main tag.
>
> I am tending to the second,


Me too.  It may have "library" in the name but books are not its primary
focus.  And "library" was only
included in the name because somebody thought that "library" meant
"lending" because all the
libraries he/she visited were lending libraries not reference libraries.


> but we’ll probably also have to introduce a property because some normal
> libraries will have also a games department.
>

No games in my local library, but they do have CDs and DVDs.  And also
computers for accessing the
Internet.  A look at the online catalogue for my local toy library does not
show any games or books.

Another point.  My local library does not charge for books, but does charge
for CDs and DVDs.  The
toy library charges for all the toys, so it's more of a toy rental shop.
Of course, there may be some
book libraries that charge and some toy libraries that do not.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

Here's the proposal wiki page (I hope I did it correctly):
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/toy_and_game_library

I'll polish it tomorrow.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 10:12 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:

> sent from a phone
>
> > On 10. Oct 2018, at 20:01, Paul Allen pla16...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The rendering tools
> > can be changed to accommodate this but, as I understand it, such changes 
> > may greatly
> > increase the processing time to render map tiles whether or not they 
> > contain a library.
>
> not true. It makes evaluation more complex though. You would have to be aware 
> that not all amenity=library are libraries for books, and if you aren’t you 
> will interpret some of them incorrectly as places where you can borrow books.
>
> If you stand on the position that a toys library is a kind of library, 
> subtagging is the way to go, if you think it is different to a library and 
> has just the library in the name, you make a new main tag.
>
> I am tending to the second, but we’ll probably also have to introduce a 
> property because some normal libraries will have also a games department.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Oct 2018, at 20:01, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> The rendering tools
> can be changed to accommodate this but, as I understand it, such changes may 
> greatly
> increase the processing time to render map tiles whether or not they contain 
> a library.


not true. It makes evaluation more complex though. You would have to be aware 
that not all amenity=library are libraries for books, and if you aren’t you 
will interpret some of them incorrectly as places where you can borrow books.

If you stand on the position that a toys library is a kind of library, 
subtagging is the way to go, if you think it is different to a library and has 
just the library in the name, you make a new main tag.

I am tending to the second, but we’ll probably also have to introduce a 
property because some normal libraries will have also a games department.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Oct 2018, at 19:11, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> When I read the Wikipedia text on the osm wiki,  it seems that you can 
> consider a car rental place as a library. This does not match the definition 
> of the Dutch word bibliotheek which restricts it to books and .  They can be 
> in electronic form though.  I guess all languages the use a word derived from 
> the same Greek origin will have the same meaning. 
> 
> It would be very unnatural in those languages to say that something is a 
> bibliotheek,  but you will only find toys and games. 



it is exactly the same situation with the word “library”, which is derived from 
Latin librarium (book case). It doesn’t matter, the creator of the new word was 
either ignorant or didn’t care, if this word is now established I would use it. 
Everybody knows libraries, so it apparently made sense to borrow from this 
established word for a similar concept (but different “product”).
Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:10 PM bkil  wrote:

>
> We could decompose the functions of a library as a repository and
> rental/lending for books and other media, usually operating on a
> monthly subscription model, sometimes sponsored by local authorities.
>

That would be a sensible way to do it.   But we can't do an automated
replacement as it's
not a one-to-one mapping: most amenity=library will be lending libraries
but some will be
reference libraries.  The current scheme doesn't make a distinction so is
incomplete information.
Doing an automated change would lead to the small number of reference
libraries being incorrectly
tagged as lending libraries, or the large number of lending libraries not
being marked as such.

If we were to start again and incorporate all we've learned, the tagging
scheme would look very
different.  That isn't a realistic prospect, though.  We could try running
the two schemes in
parallel and deprecate the old one, but old tags never die and rarely fade
away.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[bkil]

Indeed, the Hungarian word for library ("könyvtár") can be literally
translated as "book repository".

We could decompose the functions of a library as a repository and
rental/lending for books and other media, usually operating on a
monthly subscription model, sometimes sponsored by local authorities.

amenity=repository
repository=print_media;ebook;music
lending=yes
fee:subscription=only
internet_access=terminal;wlan
...

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 8:02 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 6:12 PM Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> Yes,  that is the process that you should follow.  Please keep in mind the 
>> it is easier to introduce a new tag than to redefine one. Requiring that all 
>> current amenity=library have to be updated with a subtags library= book will 
>> likely get some comments.
>
>
> There are other problem.  The icon for amenity=library is a book.  Until the 
> rendering tools are
> modified, using subtags like library=toys (the toy library near me doesn't 
> have any games in its
> catalogue, only games) and library=toys_and_games will get a book icon.  The 
> rendering tools
> can be changed to accommodate this but, as I understand it, such changes may 
> greatly
> increase the processing time to render map tiles whether or not they contain 
> a library.
>
> It's also worth pointing out that "library" derives from a word meaning books 
> (or chest for books).
> It's is incorrect to say that a toy library is like a library but for toys, 
> it's like a LENDING library but
> for toys.  I hate it when marketers misappropriate words, but it's far too 
> late to do anything about it.
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 6:12 PM Marc Gemis  wrote:

> Yes,  that is the process that you should follow.  Please keep in mind the
> it is easier to introduce a new tag than to redefine one. Requiring that
> all current amenity=library have to be updated with a subtags library= book
> will likely get some comments.
>

There are other problem.  The icon for amenity=library is a book.  Until
the rendering tools are
modified, using subtags like library=toys (the toy library near me doesn't
have any games in its
catalogue, only games) and library=toys_and_games will get a book icon.
The rendering tools
can be changed to accommodate this but, as I understand it, such changes
may greatly
increase the processing time to render map tiles whether or not they
contain a library.

It's also worth pointing out that "library" derives from a word meaning
books (or chest for books).
It's is incorrect to say that a toy library is like a library but for toys,
it's like a LENDING library but
for toys.  I hate it when marketers misappropriate words, but it's far too
late to do anything about it.
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Marc Gemis]

Yes,  that is the process that you should follow.  Please keep in mind the
it is easier to introduce a new tag than to redefine one. Requiring that
all current amenity=library have to be updated with a subtags library= book
will likely get some comments.

When I read the Wikipedia text on the osm wiki,  it seems that you can
consider a car rental place as a library. This does not match the
definition of the Dutch word bibliotheek which restricts it to books and .
They can be in electronic form though.  I guess all languages the use a
word derived from the same Greek origin will have the same meaning.

It would be very unnatural in those languages to say that something is a
bibliotheek,  but you will only find toys and games.

Regards

m

Op wo 10 okt. 2018 18:36 schreef ChameleonScales <
chameleonsca...@protonmail.com>:

> Just found out about the proposal process:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process. Should I create a
> wiki page and follow the steps there?
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 4:24 PM, ChameleonScales <
> chameleonsca...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---
> >
> > Indeed, fixed.
> >
> > > we do not want data consumers that does not understand the
> library-subkey to treat a toys_and_games as a book-library.
> >
> > That's partly why I proposed to rewrite the definition of the library
> tag and make it correspond more to the wikipedia definition, as it would
> allow to differentiate all sorts of libraries (e.g. library=books) but if
> you think there's no benefit in doing that in comparison to having full
> single values like toys_and_games_library, then I won't oppose.
> >
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:43 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com
> wrote:
> >
> > > --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---
> > > AFAIK, we do not use a colon in the values. If you want to indicate a
> > > subcategory, it goes in a subkey.
> > > so amenity=library;library=toys_and_games
> > > But in this case we do not want data consumers that does not
> > > understand the library-subkey to treat a toys_and_games as a
> > > book-library.
> > > hence the idea to place it in the main key, as
> amenity=toys_and_games_library
> > > m.
> > > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:37 PM ChameleonScales
> > > chameleonsca...@protonmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm not sure why "amenity=library:toys_and_games" is not a good idea
> but being new to this I'll leave that to more experienced contributors.
> > > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > > > On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:29 PM, Marc Gemis
> marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > 2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these
> establishments are already suffering the misconception that they are only
> there for children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" would hardly
> make it better. If we used french language there would be nothing to argue
> about but since the "smart language" people decided that game mostly means
> video-game in the 21st century, I have no better idea than using
> "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. Do you see it differently?
> > > > >
> > > > > with "toys_and_games" I think the place can easily be mistaken for
> a
> > > > > shop that sells toys and games. A key differentiator is the lending
> > > > > part, not ?
> > > > > It's my feeling that amenity=toys_and_games_library is more
> > > > > understandable for people not familiar with the concept. Hopefully
> > > > > this will also prevent incorrect translations.
> > > > > m.
> >
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

Just found out about the proposal process: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process. Should I create a wiki 
page and follow the steps there?

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 4:24 PM, ChameleonScales 
 wrote:

> > --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---
>
> Indeed, fixed.
>
> > we do not want data consumers that does not understand the library-subkey 
> > to treat a toys_and_games as a book-library.
>
> That's partly why I proposed to rewrite the definition of the library tag and 
> make it correspond more to the wikipedia definition, as it would allow to 
> differentiate all sorts of libraries (e.g. library=books) but if you think 
> there's no benefit in doing that in comparison to having full single values 
> like toys_and_games_library, then I won't oppose.
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:43 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---
> > AFAIK, we do not use a colon in the values. If you want to indicate a
> > subcategory, it goes in a subkey.
> > so amenity=library;library=toys_and_games
> > But in this case we do not want data consumers that does not
> > understand the library-subkey to treat a toys_and_games as a
> > book-library.
> > hence the idea to place it in the main key, as 
> > amenity=toys_and_games_library
> > m.
> > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:37 PM ChameleonScales
> > chameleonsca...@protonmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > I'm not sure why "amenity=library:toys_and_games" is not a good idea but 
> > > being new to this I'll leave that to more experienced contributors.
> > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > > On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:29 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > 2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these 
> > > > > establishments are already suffering the misconception that they are 
> > > > > only there for children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" 
> > > > > would hardly make it better. If we used french language there would 
> > > > > be nothing to argue about but since the "smart language" people 
> > > > > decided that game mostly means video-game in the 21st century, I have 
> > > > > no better idea than using "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. 
> > > > > Do you see it differently?
> > > >
> > > > with "toys_and_games" I think the place can easily be mistaken for a
> > > > shop that sells toys and games. A key differentiator is the lending
> > > > part, not ?
> > > > It's my feeling that amenity=toys_and_games_library is more
> > > > understandable for people not familiar with the concept. Hopefully
> > > > this will also prevent incorrect translations.
> > > > m.
>
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

> --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---

Indeed, fixed.


> we do not want data consumers that does not understand the library-subkey to 
> treat a toys_and_games as a book-library.

That's partly why I proposed to rewrite the definition of the library tag and 
make it correspond more to the wikipedia definition, as it would allow to 
differentiate all sorts of libraries (e.g. library=books) but if you think 
there's no benefit in doing that in comparison to having full single values 
like toys_and_games_library, then I won't oppose.



‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:43 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> --- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---
>
> AFAIK, we do not use a colon in the values. If you want to indicate a
> subcategory, it goes in a subkey.
>
> so amenity=library;library=toys_and_games
>
> But in this case we do not want data consumers that does not
> understand the library-subkey to treat a toys_and_games as a
> book-library.
> hence the idea to place it in the main key, as amenity=toys_and_games_library
>
> m.
>
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:37 PM ChameleonScales
> chameleonsca...@protonmail.com wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure why "amenity=library:toys_and_games" is not a good idea but 
> > being new to this I'll leave that to more experienced contributors.
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:29 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > > 2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these 
> > > > establishments are already suffering the misconception that they are 
> > > > only there for children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" 
> > > > would hardly make it better. If we used french language there would be 
> > > > nothing to argue about but since the "smart language" people decided 
> > > > that game mostly means video-game in the 21st century, I have no better 
> > > > idea than using "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. Do you see it 
> > > > differently?
> > >
> > > with "toys_and_games" I think the place can easily be mistaken for a
> > > shop that sells toys and games. A key differentiator is the lending
> > > part, not ?
> > > It's my feeling that amenity=toys_and_games_library is more
> > > understandable for people not familiar with the concept. Hopefully
> > > this will also prevent incorrect translations.
> > > m.



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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Marc Gemis]

--- You only send this to me (probably by accident). ---

AFAIK, we do not use a colon in the values. If you want to indicate a
subcategory, it goes in a subkey.

so amenity=library;library=toys_and_games


But in this case we do not want data consumers that does not
understand the library-subkey  to treat a toys_and_games as a
book-library.
hence the idea to place it in the main key, as amenity=toys_and_games_library

m.


On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:37 PM ChameleonScales
 wrote:
>
> I'm not sure why "amenity=library:toys_and_games" is not a good idea but 
> being new to this I'll leave that to more experienced contributors.
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:29 PM, Marc Gemis  
> wrote:
>
> > > 2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these 
> > > establishments are already suffering the misconception that they are only 
> > > there for children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" would 
> > > hardly make it better. If we used french language there would be nothing 
> > > to argue about but since the "smart language" people decided that game 
> > > mostly means video-game in the 21st century, I have no better idea than 
> > > using "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. Do you see it differently?
> >
> > with "toys_and_games" I think the place can easily be mistaken for a
> > shop that sells toys and games. A key differentiator is the lending
> > part, not ?
> > It's my feeling that amenity=toys_and_games_library is more
> > understandable for people not familiar with the concept. Hopefully
> > this will also prevent incorrect translations.
> >
> > m.
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Marc Gemis]

> 2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these establishments 
> are already suffering the misconception that they are only there for 
> children, so reducing their name to "toy libraries" would hardly make it 
> better. If we used french language there would be nothing to argue about but 
> since the "smart language" people decided that game mostly means video-game 
> in the 21st century, I have no better idea than using "toys_and_games" to 
> keep it clear enough. Do you see it differently?

with "toys_and_games" I think the place can easily be mistaken for a
shop that sells toys and games. A key differentiator is the lending
part, not ?
It's my feeling that amenity=toys_and_games_library is more
understandable for people not familiar with the concept. Hopefully
this will also prevent incorrect translations.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

Thanks for your response. I have 2 problems with this:
1: Although the OSM wiki 
[acknowledged](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=library) the 
broadness of the word "library" according to Wikipedia, it still focused [the 
tag value](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Education) on books 
only ("A public library to borrow books from"). If this term was effectively 
used in a more generic way, we could have secondary values for each type of 
library (books, documents, musics, movies, games, etc...). This would make more 
sense to me.
2: Having been a toy & game librarian, I can say that these establishments are 
already suffering the misconception that they are only there for children, so 
reducing their name to "toy libraries" would hardly make it better. If we used 
french language there would be nothing to argue about but since the "smart 
language" people decided that game mostly means video-game in the 21st century, 
I have no better idea than using "toys_and_games" to keep it clear enough. Do 
you see it differently?

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 8:58 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/10/18 09:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 08:04, Paul Allen  wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:24 PM ChameleonScales 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 amenity:library=game_and_toy
>>>
>>> When I added one of these, five months ago, the most popular way of doing 
>>> it was
>>> amenity=toy_library, so that's what I went with.
>>
>> I was wondering the same question about mapping Family History libraries ie 
>> somewhere you go to study Family History, which has reference files etc
>>
>> I was thinking:
>> amenity=library
>> "something" :-)=family_history
>>
>> type / library / resource ???
>
> Family history (or genealogy) is not only researched in libraries, but also 
> government record offices, national archives, newspaper records, cemetery 
> records, wills, probate, city directories, trade directories etc.
>
> I'm not certain how to go about tagging the availability of genealogy 
> material.
> genealogy=yes/vital_records/newspapers/religious_records/* ???
>
> As a non physical tag it would have to be attached to something.. library, 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Warin]

On 10/10/18 09:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 08:04, Paul Allen > wrote:


On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:24 PM ChameleonScales
mailto:chameleonsca...@protonmail.com>> wrote:

amenity:library=game_and_toy


When I added one of these, five months ago, the most popular way
of doing it was
amenity=toy_library, so that's what I went with.


I was wondering the same question about mapping Family History 
libraries ie somewhere you go to study Family History, which has 
reference files etc


I was thinking:
amenity=library
"something" :-)=family_history

type / library / resource ???


Family history (or genealogy) is not only researched in libraries, but 
also government record offices, national archives, newspaper records, 
cemetery records, wills, probate, city directories, trade directories etc.


I'm not certain how to go about tagging the availability of genealogy 
material.

genealogy=yes/vital_records/newspapers/religious_records/* ???

As a non physical tag it would have to be attached to something.. 
library, office etc.
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Oct 2018, at 00:03, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> When I added one of these, five months ago, the most popular way of doing it 
> was
> amenity=toy_library, so that's what I went with.


+1, kiss


Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 08:04, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:24 PM ChameleonScales <
> chameleonsca...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
> amenity:library=game_and_toy
>>
>
> When I added one of these, five months ago, the most popular way of doing
> it was
> amenity=toy_library, so that's what I went with.
>

I was wondering the same question about mapping Family History libraries ie
somewhere you go to study Family History, which has reference files etc

I was thinking:
amenity=library
"something" :-)=family_history

type / library / resource ???

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:24 PM ChameleonScales <
chameleonsca...@protonmail.com> wrote:

amenity:library=game_and_toy
>

When I added one of these, five months ago, the most popular way of doing
it was
amenity=toy_library, so that's what I went with.

-- 
Paul
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