Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[phil]

cuisine = crisps in a pub :)

The nearest in English for gelateria is ice cream parlour.

Phil (trigpoint )

On Mon Aug 18 2014 14:00:07 GMT+0100 (BST), Simone Saviolo wrote:
> 2014-08-18 13:41 GMT+02:00 John Packer :
> 
> > I'm not sure what is a gelateria.
> > Couldn't this be tagged simply with amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream ?
> >
> 
> Pretty much the same way as a pub could be tagged amenity=restaurant +
> cuisine=burgers + alcohol=yes.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Simone
>

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Simone Saviolo]

2014-08-18 13:41 GMT+02:00 John Packer :

> I'm not sure what is a gelateria.
> Couldn't this be tagged simply with amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream ?
>

Pretty much the same way as a pub could be tagged amenity=restaurant +
cuisine=burgers + alcohol=yes.

Regards,

Simone
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[John Packer]

I'm not sure what is a gelateria.
Couldn't this be tagged simply with amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream ?


2014-08-18 8:23 GMT-03:00 Simone Saviolo :

> 2014-08-14 10:40 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm :
>
> Hi,
>>
>> On 08/14/2014 08:09 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>> > shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and
>> > shop keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)
>>
>> amenity=ice_cream sounds very strange to me. I can't imagine a lot of
>> people actually coming up with that themselves - can it be a mass edit
>> or an editor preset gone wrong?
>>
>> I mean, the amenity consists not in there being ice cream, but there
>> being a place where you can get ice cream.
>>
>> That would like tagging amenity=bed for a hotel or amenity=food for a
>> restaurant...
>
>
> Not really. A gelateria is a very different thing from a bar, and it's not
> "a shop that sells ice cream". At most you could use "ice cream parlour",
> but amenity=ice_cream_parlour seems worse to me than the current tag.
>
> Ciao,
>
> Simone
>
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Simone Saviolo]

2014-08-14 10:40 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm :

> Hi,
>
> On 08/14/2014 08:09 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and
> > shop keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)
>
> amenity=ice_cream sounds very strange to me. I can't imagine a lot of
> people actually coming up with that themselves - can it be a mass edit
> or an editor preset gone wrong?
>
> I mean, the amenity consists not in there being ice cream, but there
> being a place where you can get ice cream.
>
> That would like tagging amenity=bed for a hotel or amenity=food for a
> restaurant...


Not really. A gelateria is a very different thing from a bar, and it's not
"a shop that sells ice cream". At most you could use "ice cream parlour",
but amenity=ice_cream_parlour seems worse to me than the current tag.

Ciao,

Simone
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[fly]

Am 14.08.2014 10:40, schrieb Frederik Ramm:
> Hi,
> 
> On 08/14/2014 08:09 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>> shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and
>> shop keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)

Please no, not this issue again. Clean up won't help as long as we do
not have a con-sense how to tag it and a proper description in the wiki.

> amenity=ice_cream sounds very strange to me. I can't imagine a lot of
> people actually coming up with that themselves - can it be a mass edit
> or an editor preset gone wrong?
> 
> I mean, the amenity consists not in there being ice cream, but there
> being a place where you can get ice cream.

As far as I remember it has  an Italian origin but simply search for
"ice cream" on this list.


cu fly


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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 08/14/2014 08:09 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and
> shop keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)

amenity=ice_cream sounds very strange to me. I can't imagine a lot of
people actually coming up with that themselves - can it be a mass edit
or an editor preset gone wrong?

I mean, the amenity consists not in there being ice cream, but there
being a place where you can get ice cream.

That would like tagging amenity=bed for a hotel or amenity=food for a
restaurant...

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Mateusz Konieczny]

To summarize (for the second time):

shop=fish, shop=fishmonger and shop=seafood are not synonyms as fish may
also apply to pet fish and seafood is not covering freshwater fish
shop=winery, shop=wine ("shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is a
winer maker selling his own production")
shop=delicatessen, shop=deli I am not understanding difference but there is
some
shop=jewellery (139) -> shop=jewelry (13299, documented) (there is a
planned change in the opposite direction)

There were no objections to following changes:
shop=bags (201) -> shop=bag (409, documented)
shop=antique (110) -> shop=antiques (1394, documented)
shop=pets (162) -> shop=pet (5393, documented)
shop=pharmacy (1591) -> amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented)
shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and
shop keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)



2014-07-30 23:08 GMT+02:00 Tobias Knerr :

> On 30.07.2014 20:42, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > There were no objections to following changes:
> > shop=jewellery (139) -> shop=jewelry (13299, documented)
>
> Actually, we discussed a suggestion to change this in the other
> direction while this thread was running. Although it was in a separate
> thread, I think that discussion counts as an objection.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Elena ``of Valhalla'']

On 2014-08-01 at 00:05:38 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > how do you tag an italian pasticceria? (of the kind that also serves 
> > coffee and read-to-eat pastry, not the "laboratori di pasticceria" 
> > where you buy things to bring home / elsewhere.
> I don't recall, haven't seen many of them, I guess amenity=cafe would be it, 
> or sometimes they're a bar as well?  

I don't think they sell alcoiholic drinks, so yes, amenity=cafe sounds 
more appropriate, but then aren't gelaterie close to this concept 
(except with gelato instead of pastry)

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[John F. Eldredge]

Quite a few bars in the USA don't sell breakfast. Local laws control when they 
can be open, which varies from place to place.


On July 31, 2014 8:47:39 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
> 2014-07-31 15:27 GMT+02:00 fly :
> 
> > > I use them like this
> > >
> > > amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream
> > > there is a waiter / service
> > >
> > > amenity=ice_cream
> > > they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables
> to sit
> > down (no service)
> >
> > Do you make any differences on bars in Italy, too ? I mean the one
> with
> > only a barkeeper and the other with service ?
> 
> 
> 
> bars are another topic ;-)
> A bar can be almost everything, some are offering long lists of cooked
> stuff for lunch (1st and second course, dessert), others only offer
> some
> sandwich or even only fried potatoe chips and peanuts. The only thing
> you
> can be quite sure is that they all offer croissant for breakfast, and
> espresso / capuccino / caffè latte, soft drinks and alcoholics. Some
> also
> sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets and tobacco
> (and
> allow you to pay your "home bills" like electricity and water). They
> hardly
> ever sell newspapers, and the newsagents won't typically sell lottery
> tickets, stamps, public transport tickets or tobacco.
> The main difference between a restaurant and a bar is that in the bar
> you'll pay typically in advance (for whatever), while there might be
> service to bring your food (especially if you have to wait). Also
> restaurants won't offer any of the additional services described above
> (tickets etc.).
> 
> Actually I have never tagged amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream in Italy
> (but
> in Germany I did), because the typology here is different.
> (traditional,
> artisanal) ice cream is seen as a subproduct of pastry (pasticceria,
> de:Konditorei) and being relatively cheap (you can get a nice serving
> for
> 1,50EUR) people eat it a lot on the go (after lunch/dinner), while in
> Germany it is mostly seen as something either industrial or Italian
> (i.e.
> country specific specialty) ;-)
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> On 31/lug/2014, at 17:22, "Jesse B. Crawford"  wrote:
> 
> I suspect that this is going to vary far too much by culture to get 
> acceptable results out of simply tagging as "bar" vs "pub" or whatever might 
> be proposed.
> 

Yes, getting the fine differences (sometimes it might be just style) into tags 
seems impossible. Another idea is to put the original words (in local language) 
into a multivalue tag:
restaurant:type:it (but I used it also for bars and others): 
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> On 31/lug/2014, at 16:58, Elena ``of Valhalla''  
> wrote:
> 
> how do you tag an italian pasticceria? (of the kind that also serves 
> coffee and read-to-eat pastry, not the "laboratori di pasticceria" 
> where you buy things to bring home / elsewhere.


I don't recall, haven't seen many of them, I guess amenity=cafe would be it, or 
sometimes they're a bar as well?  

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Jesse B. Crawford]

 

For what it's worth, in the United States the terms bar, tavern, lounge,
and pub are used almost interchangeably. Some imply table service and
general food more than others, but there is no hard rule, and the
situation is further complicated by, for example, "bar and grill" having
a much different implication than just "bar" in that regard, and even
"brewpub" vs "pub". I suspect that this is going to vary far too much by
culture to get acceptable results out of simply tagging as "bar" vs
"pub" or whatever might be proposed. 

The Italian bar sounds far more like a corner store to me! 

---
Jesse B. Crawford
Student, Information Technology
New Mexico Inst. of Mining & Tech

https://jbcrawford.us || je...@jbcrawford.us
https://cs.nmt.edu/~jcrawford || jcrawf...@cs.nmt.edu

On 2014-07-31 07:47 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

> 2014-07-31 15:27 GMT+02:00 fly :
> 
>>> I use them like this
>>> 
>>> amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream
>>> there is a waiter / service
>>> 
>>> amenity=ice_cream
>>> they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit 
>>> down (no service)
>> 
>> Do you make any differences on bars in Italy, too ? I mean the one with
>> only a barkeeper and the other with service ?
> 
> bars are another topic ;-) 
> A bar can be almost everything, some are offering long lists of cooked stuff 
> for lunch (1st and second course, dessert), others only offer some sandwich 
> or even only fried potatoe chips and peanuts. The only thing you can be quite 
> sure is that they all offer croissant for breakfast, and espresso / capuccino 
> / caffè latte, soft drinks and alcoholics. Some also sell lottery tickets, 
> stamps, public transport tickets and tobacco (and allow you to pay your "home 
> bills" like electricity and water). They hardly ever sell newspapers, and the 
> newsagents won't typically sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport 
> tickets or tobacco. 
> The main difference between a restaurant and a bar is that in the bar you'll 
> pay typically in advance (for whatever), while there might be service to 
> bring your food (especially if you have to wait). Also restaurants won't 
> offer any of the additional services described above (tickets etc.).
> 
> Actually I have never tagged amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream in Italy (but in 
> Germany I did), because the typology here is different. (traditional, 
> artisanal) ice cream is seen as a subproduct of pastry (pasticceria, 
> de:Konditorei) and being relatively cheap (you can get a nice serving for 
> 1,50EUR) people eat it a lot on the go (after lunch/dinner), while in Germany 
> it is mostly seen as something either industrial or Italian (i.e. country 
> specific specialty) ;-)
> 
> cheers,
> Martin 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Elena ``of Valhalla'']

On 2014-07-31 at 15:47:39 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> bars are another topic ;-)

and a confusing one :)

> The only thing you
> can be quite sure is that they all offer croissant for breakfast, and
> espresso / capuccino / caffè latte, soft drinks and alcoholics. 

that's basically it, with the caveat that sometimes the croissant can 
be very substandard, but most bars also sell something else (different
from each other)

> Some also
> sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets and tobacco (and
> allow you to pay your "home bills" like electricity and water). They hardly
> ever sell newspapers, and the newsagents won't typically sell lottery
> tickets, stamps, public transport tickets or tobacco.

to add to the confusion: in lombardy public transport tickets are
notusually sold by bars, but by newsagents, which also sell some kind of lottery
tickets ("gratta e vinci"), but not big lotteries nor stamps or tobacco.

> The main difference between a restaurant and a bar is that in the bar
> you'll pay typically in advance (for whatever), while there might be
> service to bring your food (especially if you have to wait). Also
> restaurants won't offer any of the additional services described above
> (tickets etc.).

Mostly the second one: most of the bars I know don't ask for payment in
advance, unless they are in an area with lots of customers (e.g. near 
a biggish railway station).

Restaurants are specialized on food for main means, however, while 
bars are much more varied in their services.

> Actually I have never tagged amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream in Italy (but
> in Germany I did), because the typology here is different. (traditional,
> artisanal) ice cream is seen as a subproduct of pastry (pasticceria,
> de:Konditorei) and being relatively cheap (you can get a nice serving for
> 1,50EUR) people eat it a lot on the go (after lunch/dinner), while in
> Germany it is mostly seen as something either industrial or Italian (i.e.
> country specific specialty) ;-)

how do you tag an italian pasticceria? (of the kind that also serves 
coffee and read-to-eat pastry, not the "laboratori di pasticceria" 
where you buy things to bring home / elsewhere.

-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[fly]

Am 31.07.2014 15:47, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> 
> 2014-07-31 15:27 GMT+02:00 fly  >:
> 
> > I use them like this
> >
> > amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream
> > there is a waiter / service
> >
> > amenity=ice_cream
> > they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables
> to sit down (no service)
> 
> Do you make any differences on bars in Italy, too ? I mean the one with
> only a barkeeper and the other with service ?
> 
> 
> 
> bars are another topic ;-)
> A bar can be almost everything, some are offering long lists of cooked
> stuff for lunch (1st and second course, dessert), others only offer some
> sandwich or even only fried potatoe chips and peanuts. The only thing
> you can be quite sure is that they all offer croissant for breakfast,
> and espresso / capuccino / caffè latte, soft drinks and alcoholics. Some
> also sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets and tobacco
> (and allow you to pay your "home bills" like electricity and water).
> They hardly ever sell newspapers, and the newsagents won't typically
> sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets or tobacco.
> The main difference between a restaurant and a bar is that in the bar
> you'll pay typically in advance (for whatever), while there might be
> service to bring your food (especially if you have to wait). Also
> restaurants won't offer any of the additional services described above
> (tickets etc.).
> 
> Actually I have never tagged amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream in Italy
> (but in Germany I did), because the typology here is different.
> (traditional, artisanal) ice cream is seen as a subproduct of pastry
> (pasticceria, de:Konditorei) and being relatively cheap (you can get a
> nice serving for 1,50EUR) people eat it a lot on the go (after
> lunch/dinner), while in Germany it is mostly seen as something either
> industrial or Italian (i.e. country specific specialty) ;-)

I know Italy quite well, that is why I did ask about bars.

Living in an area of Germany with some Italian life-style I find all the
different ice-cream selling amenities like in Italy, and you are wrong
in your view about Germany. It used to be also an additional product of
pasticcerie here, too. At least, that is what my grandmother, daughter
of a baker/pastreur.

I prefer to have some extra tags than four or five different variants to
tag the same feature with little nuances in meaning.

cu fly


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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-07-31 15:27 GMT+02:00 fly :

> > I use them like this
> >
> > amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream
> > there is a waiter / service
> >
> > amenity=ice_cream
> > they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit
> down (no service)
>
> Do you make any differences on bars in Italy, too ? I mean the one with
> only a barkeeper and the other with service ?



bars are another topic ;-)
A bar can be almost everything, some are offering long lists of cooked
stuff for lunch (1st and second course, dessert), others only offer some
sandwich or even only fried potatoe chips and peanuts. The only thing you
can be quite sure is that they all offer croissant for breakfast, and
espresso / capuccino / caffè latte, soft drinks and alcoholics. Some also
sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets and tobacco (and
allow you to pay your "home bills" like electricity and water). They hardly
ever sell newspapers, and the newsagents won't typically sell lottery
tickets, stamps, public transport tickets or tobacco.
The main difference between a restaurant and a bar is that in the bar
you'll pay typically in advance (for whatever), while there might be
service to bring your food (especially if you have to wait). Also
restaurants won't offer any of the additional services described above
(tickets etc.).

Actually I have never tagged amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream in Italy (but
in Germany I did), because the typology here is different. (traditional,
artisanal) ice cream is seen as a subproduct of pastry (pasticceria,
de:Konditorei) and being relatively cheap (you can get a nice serving for
1,50EUR) people eat it a lot on the go (after lunch/dinner), while in
Germany it is mostly seen as something either industrial or Italian (i.e.
country specific specialty) ;-)

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Andreas Goss]

We also already have a drink: key and I wanted a food: key anyway for 
vending machines. Might also be an option.


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drink

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Vending-Drinks%26Food


A problem with "ice_cream" is there's no way to add it to a different shop.



sells:ice_cream=industrial/artisanal/yes


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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[fly]

Am 31.07.2014 01:45, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> 
> 
>> Am 30/lug/2014 um 20:42 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
>>
>> There were no objections to following changes:
>> shop=jewellery (139) -> shop=jewelry (13299, documented)
> 
> 
> yes there were, this should be BE spelling
> 
> 
>> shop=bags (201) -> shop=bag (409, documented)
>> shop=antique (110) -> shop=antiques (1394, documented)
>> shop=pets (162) -> shop=pet (5393, documented)
> 
> 
> wouldn't it be nice to have either all singular or all plural?

+1

>> shop=pharmacy (1591) -> amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented)
> 
> 
> I don't know shop=pharmacy but Id have a look and ask a few of the mappers 

Yes, there is some confusion between chemist, drugstore and pharmacy.

>> shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and 
>> shop keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)

>
> I use them like this
> 
> amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream
> there is a waiter / service
> 
> amenity=ice_cream
> they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down 
> (no service)

Do you make any differences on bars in Italy, too ? I mean the one with
only a barkeeper and the other with service ?

> shop=ice_cream
> you can only buy ice cream (no seats)

Still do not like amenity=ice_cream but this discussion is quite old and
long.

cu fly

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[John Packer]

I think a place should be tagged amenity=fast_food depending on the
structure of the place.
>From the description on the wiki page: "Is for a place concentrating on
very fast counter-only service and take-away food."
It might have tables for seating.
Someone on the Talk page suggested used the undocumented key seating=* to
indicate whether there are seats available, which seems to have a good
number of uses.

We could start a separate thread if needed, but personally I don't think
this needs to be solved right now.
I documented the current state of affairs in the wiki[1], so we don't have
to rediscuss everything later.

[1]:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream&diff=1068150&oldid=969545



2014-07-30 21:50 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> > Am 31/lug/2014 um 02:13 schrieb John Packer :
> >
> > As far as I can see, you could easily use amenity=fast_food with
> cuisine=ice_cream instead of amenity=ice_cream or shop=ice_cream
>
>
> I believe we are talking about different places.
>
> FWIW, I am Not proposing to retag or warn from fast food with
> cuisine=ice_cream
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Ilpo Järvinen]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> > Am 31/lug/2014 um 10:38 schrieb Ilpo Järvinen :
> > 
> > shop:seats=yes/no
> > shop:waiter/service=yes/no
> > 
> > ...Or something along those lines rather than the black magic you outlined 
> > above ;-).
> 
> 
> If I understand you correctly you propose to deprecate amenity=pub in favor of
> shop=alcohol
> shop:seats=yes
> shop:waiter=yes
> ?

I can see your point in that particular case, however, I still think that 
saying or specifying amenity=ice_cream to imply shop:seats=yes is like I 
put it, "black magic". Probably simply because of difference in the 
meaning of those two words but I'm not a native so it'd probably be better
for me to just keep quiet in this kind of nuance of word type
discussions :-).


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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 31/lug/2014 um 10:38 schrieb Ilpo Järvinen :
> 
> shop:seats=yes/no
> shop:waiter/service=yes/no
> 
> ...Or something along those lines rather than the black magic you outlined 
> above ;-).


If I understand you correctly you propose to deprecate amenity=pub in favor of
shop=alcohol
shop:seats=yes
shop:waiter=yes
?

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 31/lug/2014 um 09:21 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt :
> 
> A problem with "ice_cream" is there's no way to add it to a different shop.


sells:ice_cream=industrial/artisanal/yes


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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Ilpo Järvinen]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> I use them like this
> 
> amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream
> there is a waiter / service
> 
> amenity=ice_cream
> they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down 
> (no service)
> 
> shop=ice_cream
> you can only buy ice cream (no seats)

Wouldn't it be much better to have explicit tags for those things, such 
as:

shop:seats=yes/no
shop:waiter/service=yes/no

...Or something along those lines rather than the black magic you outlined 
above ;-).

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:07 PM, John Packer  wrote:

> I think you shouldn't merge the *=ice_cream variantes.
> People never reached a consensus over which one to use (personally I think
> it's compelling to use shop=* instead of amenity=*), and there is another
> variant, which is amenity=cafe/fast_food/restaurant with cuisine=ice_cream,
> and is used even more than amenity=ice_cream.
>

A problem with "ice_cream" is there's no way to add it to a different shop.
A gift shop with an ice cream counter, for example.
shop=ice_cream and amenity=ice_cream both are all out tags, suitable only
for a dedicated ice cream shop.
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 31/lug/2014 um 02:13 schrieb John Packer :
> 
> As far as I can see, you could easily use amenity=fast_food with 
> cuisine=ice_cream instead of amenity=ice_cream or shop=ice_cream


I believe we are talking about different places.

FWIW, I am Not proposing to retag or warn from fast food with cuisine=ice_cream

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[John Packer]

>
> I use them like this
>
> amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream
> there is a waiter / service
>
> amenity=ice_cream
> they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit
> down (no service)
>
> shop=ice_cream
> you can only buy ice cream (no seats)
>
This seems a little inconsistent.
As far as I can see, you could easily use amenity=fast_food with
cuisine=ice_cream instead of amenity=ice_cream or shop=ice_cream (in the
cases mentioned). Whether the place have seating or not could be tagged
separetely.



2014-07-30 20:45 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> > Am 30/lug/2014 um 20:42 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny  >:
> >
> > There were no objections to following changes:
> > shop=jewellery (139) -> shop=jewelry (13299, documented)
>
>
> yes there were, this should be BE spelling
>
>
> > shop=bags (201) -> shop=bag (409, documented)
> > shop=antique (110) -> shop=antiques (1394, documented)
> > shop=pets (162) -> shop=pet (5393, documented)
>
>
> wouldn't it be nice to have either all singular or all plural?
>
>
>
> > shop=pharmacy (1591) -> amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented)
>
>
> I don't know shop=pharmacy but Id have a look and ask a few of the mappers
>
>
> > shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and
> shop keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)
>
>
> I use them like this
>
> amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream
> there is a waiter / service
>
> amenity=ice_cream
> they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit
> down (no service)
>
> shop=ice_cream
> you can only buy ice cream (no seats)
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 30/lug/2014 um 20:42 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
> 
> There were no objections to following changes:
> shop=jewellery (139) -> shop=jewelry (13299, documented)


yes there were, this should be BE spelling


> shop=bags (201) -> shop=bag (409, documented)
> shop=antique (110) -> shop=antiques (1394, documented)
> shop=pets (162) -> shop=pet (5393, documented)


wouldn't it be nice to have either all singular or all plural?



> shop=pharmacy (1591) -> amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented)


I don't know shop=pharmacy but Id have a look and ask a few of the mappers 


> shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop 
> keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)


I use them like this

amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream
there is a waiter / service

amenity=ice_cream
they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down 
(no service)

shop=ice_cream
you can only buy ice cream (no seats)

cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Tobias Knerr]

On 30.07.2014 20:42, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> There were no objections to following changes:
> shop=jewellery (139) -> shop=jewelry (13299, documented)

Actually, we discussed a suggestion to change this in the other
direction while this thread was running. Although it was in a separate
thread, I think that discussion counts as an objection.

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[John Packer]

I think you shouldn't merge the *=ice_cream variantes.
People never reached a consensus over which one to use (personally I think
it's compelling to use shop=* instead of amenity=*), and there is another
variant, which is amenity=cafe/fast_food/restaurant with cuisine=ice_cream,
and is used even more than amenity=ice_cream.


2014-07-30 15:42 GMT-03:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> To summarize:
>
> shop=fish, shop=fishmonger and shop=seafood are not synonyms as fish may
> also apply to pet fish and seafood is not covering freshwater fish
> shop=winery, shop=wine ("shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is
> a winer maker selling his own production")
> shop=delicatessen, shop=deli I am not understanding difference but there
> is some
>
> There were no objections to following changes:
> shop=jewellery (139) -> shop=jewelry (13299, documented)
> shop=bags (201) -> shop=bag (409, documented)
> shop=antique (110) -> shop=antiques (1394, documented)
> shop=pets (162) -> shop=pet (5393, documented)
> shop=pharmacy (1591) -> amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented)
> shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and
> shop keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)
>
>
> 2014-07-19 0:42 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss :
>
> Am 7/16/14 23:32 , schrieb Bryan Housel:
>>
>>  Oddly we have the mostly standard `craft=brewery`:
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dbrewery
>>> … but winery tagging is fragmented.
>>>
>>
>> It was probably created before the craft key got much usage.
>>
>> I think there should be shop=wine and craft=winery. If you have a winery
>> that sells wine then that should just be an additional key indicating that
>> (Is there actually a global key for that? Seems somthing that you could
>> apply for a lot of different POIs)
>> __
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>> wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 30 July 2014 22:01, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:

>
> Are you planning to make these changes yourself? Here you can find how I
> did the shop=musical_instruments to shop=musical_instrument change.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/Musical_instrument
>

Sorry, now I see that you are proposing a JOSM validator rule, not a
mechanical edit.

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 30 July 2014 19:42, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> shop=fish, shop=fishmonger and shop=seafood are not synonyms as fish may
> also apply to pet fish and seafood is not covering freshwater fish
> shop=winery, shop=wine ("shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is
> a winer maker selling his own production")
> shop=delicatessen, shop=deli I am not understanding difference but there
> is some
>

To be more precise, there is no consensus that they are synonyms. There
might still be a strong majority that considers them synonyms (we don't
know), but rightfully you focus on the tags for which there is consensus
for now.


> There were no objections to following changes:
> shop=jewellery (139) -> shop=jewelry (13299, documented)
> shop=bags (201) -> shop=bag (409, documented)
> shop=antique (110) -> shop=antiques (1394, documented)
> shop=pets (162) -> shop=pet (5393, documented)
> shop=pharmacy (1591) -> amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented)
> shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and
> shop keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)
>

Are you planning to make these changes yourself? Here you can find how I
did the shop=musical_instruments to shop=musical_instrument change.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/Musical_instrument

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Mateusz Konieczny]

To summarize:

shop=fish, shop=fishmonger and shop=seafood are not synonyms as fish may
also apply to pet fish and seafood is not covering freshwater fish
shop=winery, shop=wine ("shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is a
winer maker selling his own production")
shop=delicatessen, shop=deli I am not understanding difference but there is
some

There were no objections to following changes:
shop=jewellery (139) -> shop=jewelry (13299, documented)
shop=bags (201) -> shop=bag (409, documented)
shop=antique (110) -> shop=antiques (1394, documented)
shop=pets (162) -> shop=pet (5393, documented)
shop=pharmacy (1591) -> amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented)
shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and
shop keys is not documented) -> amenity=ice_cream (4053)


2014-07-19 0:42 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss :

> Am 7/16/14 23:32 , schrieb Bryan Housel:
>
>  Oddly we have the mostly standard `craft=brewery`:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dbrewery
>> … but winery tagging is fragmented.
>>
>
> It was probably created before the craft key got much usage.
>
> I think there should be shop=wine and craft=winery. If you have a winery
> that sells wine then that should just be an additional key indicating that
> (Is there actually a global key for that? Seems somthing that you could
> apply for a lot of different POIs)
> __
> openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
> wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Andreas Goss]

Am 7/16/14 23:32 , schrieb Bryan Housel:

Oddly we have the mostly standard `craft=brewery`:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dbrewery
… but winery tagging is fragmented.


It was probably created before the craft key got much usage.

I think there should be shop=wine and craft=winery. If you have a winery 
that sells wine then that should just be an additional key indicating 
that (Is there actually a global key for that? Seems somthing that you 
could apply for a lot of different POIs)

__
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wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Mateusz Konieczny]

> Please do not mass modify tags of objects, especially those where the
> locals have told you that they're meaningful.

I prefer to avoid step with irritated locals, that is why I am asking here
before doing anything.
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 4:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> also shop=fish might be used for pets (fish only)?


I wouldn't think so, but that's just me.
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 16/lug/2014 um 21:11 schrieb Serge Wroclawski :
> 
> Please do not mass modify tags of objects, especially those where the
> locals have told you that they're meaningful.


+1, for all cases where the modification goes beyond a simple typo. 

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Bryan Housel]

Oh yeah this comes up sometimes.

IMO a wine shop and a winery are not the same thing.  The former is something 
they have at the train station to help with the evening commute, and the latter 
is the sort of thing people plan their vacations around.

Oddly we have the mostly standard `craft=brewery`:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dbrewery
… but winery tagging is fragmented.

You can read this if you want: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Winery




On Jul 16, 2014, at 5:09 PM, Christian Quest  wrote:

> winery / wine
> 
> Winery: A winery is a building or property that produces wine, or a business 
> involved in the production of wine, such as a wine company. Some wine 
> companies own many wineries. (wikipedia)
> 
> so... shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is a winer maker selling 
> his own production...
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Christian Quest]

winery / wine

Winery: A winery is a building or property that produces wine, or a
business involved in the production of wine, such as a wine company. Some
wine companies own many wineries. (wikipedia)

so... shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is a winer maker
selling his own production...


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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Serge Wroclawski]

Perfect, so now we have a reason to keep both tags!

- Serge

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Steve Doerr  wrote:
> On 16/07/2014 20:11, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
>
>> there are no delicatessens in the UK.
>
>
> http://www.yell.com/ucs/UcsSearchAction.do?keywords=delicatessen&location=united+kingdom
>
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Steve Doerr]

On 16/07/2014 20:11, Serge Wroclawski wrote:


there are no delicatessens in the UK.


http://www.yell.com/ucs/UcsSearchAction.do?keywords=delicatessen&location=united+kingdom

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Philip Barnes  wrote:

>> A deli and a delicatessen are not the same thing. I'd say a
>> delicatessen is a cuisine of restaurant, and a deli is a type of shop.
>>
> In British English, delicatessen and deli are the same thing. Certainly
> not a cuisine, I would not associate it with a restaurant.

That's because AFAIK there are no delicatessens in the UK.

Please do not mass modify tags of objects, especially those where the
locals have told you that they're meaningful.

- Serge

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Philip Barnes]

On Thu, 2014-07-10 at 06:11 -0400, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 5:00 AM, Mateusz Konieczny  
> wrote:
> > There are some values of shop key that seem to be synonymous with other tags
> > and I want to confirm whatever it is true.
> > Unless mentioned otherwise all mentioned tags are values of key shop,
> > numeric values is occurrence count according to taginfo.
> > Before -> are values that IMHO should be replaced by value after ->.
> >
> > fish (368 and documented as replaced by seafood), fishmonger (2106 and
> > documented as replaced by seafood) -> seafood (2110)
> > delicatessen (108) -> deli (4101, documented)
> 
> A deli and a delicatessen are not the same thing. I'd say a
> delicatessen is a cuisine of restaurant, and a deli is a type of shop.
> 
In British English, delicatessen and deli are the same thing. Certainly
not a cuisine, I would not associate it with a restaurant.

A delicatessen, or deli, is either a shop (or a counter in supermarket)
selling cooked meats, cheeses, and other foods such as olives, pates.

Deli is a shortened version of delicatessen.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[SomeoneElse]

On 10/07/2014 10:50, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:


According to Wikipedia "In North America, although not generally
in the United Kingdom, the term "seafood" is extended to fresh water
organisms eaten by humans, so all edible aquatic life may be referred
to as seafood.".



We really, really, can't rely on wikipedia as a guide to English usage, 
especially not British English usage.  I'd definitely have different 
expectations of a shop=seafood and shop=fish.


Some however (bags vs bag) are I suspect far more straightforward - 
although someone may come forward and explain the difference to someone 
as ignorant about bags as I...


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Mateusz Konieczny]

> A deli and a delicatessen are not the same thing. I'd say a
> delicatessen is a cuisine of restaurant, and a deli is a type of shop.

Is it really applying to objects with shop=delicatessen?
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 10/lug/2014 um 11:50 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
> 
> According to Wikipedia "In North America, although not generally 
> in the United Kingdom, the term "seafood" is extended to fresh water 
> organisms eaten by humans, so all edible aquatic life may be referred 
> to as seafood.".


we are using British English in tagging

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 5:00 AM, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> There are some values of shop key that seem to be synonymous with other tags
> and I want to confirm whatever it is true.
> Unless mentioned otherwise all mentioned tags are values of key shop,
> numeric values is occurrence count according to taginfo.
> Before -> are values that IMHO should be replaced by value after ->.
>
> fish (368 and documented as replaced by seafood), fishmonger (2106 and
> documented as replaced by seafood) -> seafood (2110)
> delicatessen (108) -> deli (4101, documented)

A deli and a delicatessen are not the same thing. I'd say a
delicatessen is a cuisine of restaurant, and a deli is a type of shop.

- Serge

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Mateusz Konieczny]

> Although since the rules are for josm validation so will be checked by
> a human, I guess that's low-risk right?

I thought about JOSM validator rule with fix button, so it would
not be safe to assume that it will be carefully checked (the same type
of rule as [natural=marsh] to [natural=wetland, wetland=marsh]).

But tricky ones can be just reported with explanation that
true type of shop should be verified ("shop=fish is ambiguous, it
should be changed to either [shop=seafood] or [shop=pet, pet=fish]").

According to Wikipedia "In North America, although not generally
in the United Kingdom, the term "seafood" is extended to fresh water
organisms eaten by humans, so all edible aquatic life may be referred
to as seafood.".
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Dan S]

Thanks for your work Mateusz!

2014-07-10 10:21 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>> Am 10/lug/2014 um 11:19 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer :
>>
>> I'd be careful with fishmonger vs seafood (is the latter OK for someone who 
>> only sells fresh water fish?)
>
> also shop=fish might be used for pets (fish only)?

That is the only issue that makes me nervous about the suggested
josm-rules; shop=fish might indicate a pet shop in some cases.
Although since the rules are for josm validation so will be checked by
a human, I guess that's low-risk right?

Dan

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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 10/lug/2014 um 11:19 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer :
> 
> I'd be careful with fishmonger vs seafood (is the latter OK for someone who 
> only sells fresh water fish?)


also shop=fish might be used for pets (fish only)?
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Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 10/lug/2014 um 11:00 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
> 
> In cases of confirmed synonymity I will create feature request on JOSM 
> bugtracker to add conversion rules into validator (currently no values from 
> this list are handled).
> ___


I'd be careful with fishmonger vs seafood (is the latter OK for someone who 
only sells fresh water fish?)
and amenity ice_cream vs shop=ice_cream vs cuisine ice cream (take away only 
shop vs place to sit and eat, table service etc)

To "confirm" synonymity you'd have to ask every single contributor ;-)

cheers,
Martin
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