Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com writes: On the other hand, a road labeled as use at your own risk may well be one that is not currently being maintained, meaning that you have increased odds of finding it impassable due to washouts, landslides, and the like. I have seen some one-lane tracks where any type of blockage would mean you would have to back up for a long ways before reaching a point where you could turn around. Sure. So if we actually know that, the phsyical condition tags (or having a gap where it's not a road) are appropriate. And roads without that sign may not be any diffferent in condition. If you're arguing that a this road may not be functional sign should get notice=warning-nonfunctional instead of a road that merely has a connecticut-style disclaimer getting notice=liability-disclaimed then that seems fine. pgp5bnpBQsTGf.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
2013/7/31 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access at your own risk ? permissive? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
Don't think that this is the correct tag. permissive means that there is access now, but it can be withdrawn at any time. On 31 July 2013 17:34, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/7/31 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access at your own risk ? permissive? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
2013/7/31 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access at your own risk ? Is there any text before that, like guard dogs roaming free (-- access at your own risk) ? Seriously though, I wonder if such liability notice actually adds any relevant information? .. Where is accessing a property be on someone else's risk (=liability)? Not so often, eih? - access=yes ? (.. i.e. no access tag as this is the default..). -Jaakko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
In what way is this any different to any other road? Even on a government maintained road you accept a degree of own responsibility. What additional risks are we talking about here? Colin Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access at your own risk ? Volker ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
Hi, I assume there might be a difference between access=yes and access=permissive in this regard because it defines who might be liable if not you. I do not think this information should be tagged for reasons mentioned before, but on a side note, for roads with access=permissive and access=private, the operator tag should be used to indicate who is responsible for granting the right of way. -nik Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com schrieb: 2013/7/31 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access at your own risk ? Is there any text before that, like guard dogs roaming free (-- access at your own risk) ? Seriously though, I wonder if such liability notice actually adds any relevant information? .. Where is accessing a property be on someone else's risk (=liability)? Not so often, eih? - access=yes ? (.. i.e. no access tag as this is the default..). -Jaakko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
Hi, for me this isn't a question of access. What's the intention of on your own risk? If I'm walking on a footway next to a residential and I got hit by a passing car, it's also my own risk. I think it's a question of liability. So in your case maybe liability=no Take in mind that signs not always tell the truth. There are cases, where a law makes the owner liable, with or without a use on your own risk-sign. Henning ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
Am 31.07.2013 15:46, schrieb Volker Schmidt: I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access at your own risk This is no access sign ! It is posted for insurance reason because this way does not cleaned (snow plowed eg.) and if you happen to have an accident cause of bad conditions it is your own fault/problem. We need some other tag to express this. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
Hi,
fly is right here.
When it comes to snow cleaning, owners of the houses along a road are liable in
case of an accident if they didn't fulfill their duties. (At least in Germany -
some British court of law ruled this to be God's will if I am not mistaken).
However, I am not sure whether a sign is relevant here.
So, I propose:
- If in your country, a sign cannot change liabilities, do not tag it. The
access=* tag says it all.
- If the sign is legally relevant, use liability=no *and* the operator=* tag.
I could also imagine to use liability={user,operator} with a regional default.
-nik
fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com schrieb:
Am 31.07.2013 15:46, schrieb Volker Schmidt:
I am sure this has been asked many times before:
How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access
at
your own risk
This is no access sign !
It is posted for insurance reason because this way does not cleaned
(snow plowed eg.) and if you happen to have an accident cause of bad
conditions it is your own fault/problem.
We need some other tag to express this.
cu
fly
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Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
The signs I am referring to, are in Italy (South Tyrol) on narrow paths
that allow you to walk around the ruins of two medieval castles. The paths
are unprotected, like alpine paths (where I have never seen any sign of
that kind).
Volker
On 31 July 2013 18:29, Dominik George n...@naturalnet.de wrote:
Hi,
fly is right here.
When it comes to snow cleaning, owners of the houses along a road are
liable in case of an accident if they didn't fulfill their duties. (At
least in Germany - some British court of law ruled this to be God's will if
I am not mistaken).
However, I am not sure whether a sign is relevant here.
So, I propose:
- If in your country, a sign cannot change liabilities, do not tag it. The
access=* tag says it all.
- If the sign is legally relevant, use liability=no *and* the operator=*
tag.
I could also imagine to use liability={user,operator} with a regional
default.
-nik
fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com schrieb:
Am 31.07.2013 15:46, schrieb Volker Schmidt:
I am sure this has been asked many times before:
How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access at
your own risk
This is no access sign !
It is posted for insurance reason because this way does not cleaned
(snow plowed eg.) and if you happen to have an accident cause of bad
conditions it is your own fault/problem.
We need some other tag to express this.
cu
fly
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Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
Hi,
in that case, I am certain that noone will take liability for your actions
anyway, be there a sign or not. The sign is only there to ease the load on the
people who have to deny liability ;).
If the site has a private operator, though, ask them.
-nik
-nik
Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com schrieb:
The signs I am referring to, are in Italy (South Tyrol) on narrow paths
that allow you to walk around the ruins of two medieval castles. The
paths
are unprotected, like alpine paths (where I have never seen any sign of
that kind).
Volker
On 31 July 2013 18:29, Dominik George n...@naturalnet.de wrote:
Hi,
fly is right here.
When it comes to snow cleaning, owners of the houses along a road are
liable in case of an accident if they didn't fulfill their duties.
(At
least in Germany - some British court of law ruled this to be God's
will if
I am not mistaken).
However, I am not sure whether a sign is relevant here.
So, I propose:
- If in your country, a sign cannot change liabilities, do not tag
it. The
access=* tag says it all.
- If the sign is legally relevant, use liability=no *and* the
operator=*
tag.
I could also imagine to use liability={user,operator} with a regional
default.
-nik
fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com schrieb:
Am 31.07.2013 15:46, schrieb Volker Schmidt:
I am sure this has been asked many times before:
How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label
access at
your own risk
This is no access sign !
It is posted for insurance reason because this way does not cleaned
(snow plowed eg.) and if you happen to have an accident cause of bad
conditions it is your own fault/problem.
We need some other tag to express this.
cu
fly
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Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
On 2013-07-31 15:46, Volker Schmidt wrote : I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label "access at your own risk" ? Volker Maybe by saying what the risk is? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: The signs I am referring to, are in Italy (South Tyrol) on narrow paths that allow you to walk around the ruins of two medieval castles. The paths are unprotected, like alpine paths (where I have never seen any sign of that kind). Then, try one of the hiking/hazard tags ? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sac_scale http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=hazard#values But I agree that access tag is not the one you need here. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
2013/7/31 Pieren pier...@gmail.com Then, try one of the hiking/hazard tags ? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sac_scale http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=hazard#values Hazard tag sounds the best to me http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
Examples that I can think of would be roads you find around Mt. Hood indicating that police and rescue services are not available, the road is nearly or entirely impassable without specialized equipment, or an example in Portland where some routes are officially discouraged or encouraged for specific modes (but aren't banned or designated). On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: In what way is this any different to any other road? Even on a government maintained road you accept a degree of own responsibility. What additional risks are we talking about here? Colin Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access at your own risk ? Volker -- Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com writes: I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access at your own risk Don't use the access tag :-) That's about right of access, and that sort of sign is usually either: a real warning that it's physically difficult (which is separate from 'no trespassing' or some notion like road legally closed. proceed at your own risk that shows up in roads under construction when really it's obvious that it's intended they still be used, but there's some disclaimer of the usual liability. Connecticut, US is notorious for this. (state legally closed is the old joke from 10+ years ago) So I'd say that each kind of situation probably should get its own tag - the above two situations are totally different. A 'hazard' tag was suggested. I would say it's wrong to use a hazard tag because there's a this is scary sign, rather than it actually being hazardous. I'd try to avoid interpreting and use somemthing like notice=at_own_risk which keeps OSM out of the interpretation/liabiltiy-discussion business - instead just noting that there is a sign that says this sort of thing. pgp1E3ig9fKcS.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access at own risk
On the other hand, a road labeled as use at your own risk may well be one that is not currently being maintained, meaning that you have increased odds of finding it impassable due to washouts, landslides, and the like. I have seen some one-lane tracks where any type of blockage would mean you would have to back up for a long ways before reaching a point where you could turn around. Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com writes: I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag correctly a path/track/road that bears the label access at your own risk Don't use the access tag :-) That's about right of access, and that sort of sign is usually either: a real warning that it's physically difficult (which is separate from 'no trespassing' or some notion like road legally closed. proceed at your own risk that shows up in roads under construction when really it's obvious that it's intended they still be used, but there's some disclaimer of the usual liability. Connecticut, US is notorious for this. (state legally closed is the old joke from 10+ years ago) So I'd say that each kind of situation probably should get its own tag - the above two situations are totally different. A 'hazard' tag was suggested. I would say it's wrong to use a hazard tag because there's a this is scary sign, rather than it actually being hazardous. I'd try to avoid interpreting and use somemthing like notice=at_own_risk which keeps OSM out of the interpretation/liabiltiy-discussion business - instead just noting that there is a sign that says this sort of thing. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
